Unholy Alliance? Decoding the Islam-Christian "Friendship" with Jay Dyer

Summary

Podcast Summary: Louder with Crowder – “Unholy Alliance? Decoding the Islam-Christian ‘Friendship’ with Jay Dyer”

Date: May 1, 2026
Host: Gerald (Standing in for Steven Crowder)
Guest: Jay Dyer

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Overview

This episode dives into the recent rhetorical and cultural push to cast Islam as more compatible with traditional (Catholic/Orthodox) Christianity than with evangelical Christianity, and explores whether this alliance is genuine or strategic. Gerald is joined by author and commentator Jay Dyer to break down conspiracy theories around Freemasonry, the influence of secret societies, Islam's relationship with the West, and current controversies surrounding the Epstein files and US politics. Throughout, the conversation weaves religion, geopolitics, and the role of presuppositions in public discourse.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Push to 'Sanitize' Islam and Drive a Wedge Within Christianity

• Gerald introduces the episode’s central concern: increasing attempts to portray Islam as closely aligned with Catholic/Orthodox Christianity and fundamentally different from evangelical Christianity, particularly in online spaces and among certain “New Right” voices.
  • “There’s this real push…to sanitize Islam and make it seem like it is more compatible with Catholicism than with the evangelicals in Christianity or even Judaism.” (01:50)
• The rise of social media posts (e.g., from Sneako) suggesting Catholics have more in common with Muslims than with evangelicals, and discussing the implications for Christian unity and Western culture.

2. The Philosophy of Debate and Defining Terms

• Jay Dyer discusses the importance of examining one's presuppositions and the foundations of beliefs in any debate, emphasizing the need to define terms and understand epistemology.
  • “It’s inconsistent…to pick parts of a system that you think work and then reject the metaphysics or theology because they go together.” (Jay, 08:04)
  • “If there’s not a basis for the principles, then it becomes arbitrary.” (Jay, 08:28)
• Gerald relates this to his own experience, stressing why it's vital to know why you believe what you believe, especially in faith and politics.
• The pitfalls of internet debate, especially with people unwilling to define terms or examine first principles. (10:17–12:27)

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3. Freemasons: Conspiracy, Secrecy & Organized Crime

• Jay provides context on Freemasonry, arguing it functions as a syncretic, ecumenical organization with religious pluralism at its core—an ethos incompatible with orthodox Christianity.
  • “The ethos of [Freemasonry] is essentially a syncretist, ecumenist type of view…all the religions are really just manifestations of some sort of generic theism.” (Jay, 15:52)
  • “Freemasonry is like that…they kind of see it like, look, all the religions are kind of cons.” (Jay, 20:43)
• Recent murder trial in France involving Freemasons: Jay explains how secret societies have historically functioned as venues for intelligence work and organized crime, citing connections to state-sponsored black ops, the Sicilian Mafia, and the use of plausible deniability.
  • “The British Empire…used the Masonic lodges as an intelligence network…a good venue for organized crime to tap into and to use because of the oaths of secrecy.” (Jay, 18:43)
• Most Masons are unaware of “the real stuff” that goes on—higher-level recruitment involves more secrecy and, potentially, criminal activity. (25:05–26:09)
• Religion and Masonry: Christian tradition (Orthodox, Catholic, many Protestants) officially condemns membership; Masonry urges theological syncretism even at the local lodge level. (26:40–27:50)

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4. Islam & the West: “Unholy Alliance?”

• Recent narrative shift: Social media personalities now suggest that Islam is a natural ally for Catholics/Orthodox against “warmongering evangelicals/Jews,” as highlighted in posts from figures like Sneako.
  • Sneako's post: “Catholic Orthodox Christians have more in common with Muslims than they do with warmongering evangelicals in government who worship Jews and want Armageddon.” (35:19)
• Jay strongly rejects this realignment, calling it “low tier” thinking that ignores foundational doctrinal differences and the strategic nature of Islamic engagement with the West.
  • “Islam is not the friend of Christianity…they have teachings about smiling to your face but opposing you in your heart, until they have the upper hand.”* (Jay, 37:21)
  • “It’s dialectics…if you choose this one, the other is the bad guy. Life is more nuanced.”* (Jay, 35:30)
• Tactic of Taqiyya and demographic warfare: Examples from the UK and Europe where Islam has been used to alter societal balance by design, citing historical elites (e.g., Bertrand Russell) who desired this demographic shift. (37:33–38:51)
• Doctrinal chasms: Islam’s denial of the Trinity and divinity of Christ makes it, from an orthodox Christian perspective, fundamentally incompatible with Christianity.
  • “If you don’t believe in the Son…you’re antichrist.” (Jay, 37:21)

Notable, Lightly Tongue-in-Cheek Critique:

• Gerald and Jay highlight, almost humorously, the arbitrary or strange nature of some Islamic teachings (e.g., hadith about Satan distracting prayer through flatulence, literal belief in Jesus killing all pigs at the end of time) to emphasize the absurdity and doctrinal gulf.

  • “Satan can apparently fart…the Sunnis have to accept it, that when Muhammad comes back, Jesus will come back and destroy all the pigs.” (49:52–51:14)
  • “Job number one: kill all the pigs.” (Jay, 50:22)

• Islamic eschatology is “the mirror image” of Christian eschatology—a direct inversion, even casting Christian ‘villains’ as heroes in Islamic end-times narratives. (67:52–68:35)

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5. Beware False Dichotomies: How Meme Wars Shape Minds

• Gerald and Jay caution against the simplistic thinking that pits “Jews vs. Islam” or “Trump = traitor” as explanations for complex geopolitical realities.
  • “People do not understand that Islam is not the friend of Christianity…It gives the impression that…when they have the upper hand, they will not be so friendly.” (Jay, 78:58)
• The dangers of being tunnel-visioned by online narratives—especially the growing tendency to swing from one extreme to another (e.g., if boomer news/Fox is lying, maybe everything they warn about is false).
  • “It becomes like the lenses that you wear…it’s not reality.” (Jay, 83:01–83:16)
• Comparative treatment of Christianity by Judaism vs. Islam: Jay notes Judaism's hostility to Christianity is at least open (“obviously not best friends”), while Islam feigns kinship until it’s in the dominant position (“more subversive”). (78:44–79:10)

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6. Catholicism, Vatican II, and the Immigration Crisis

• Analysis of the role of the Catholic Church in supporting mass immigration to the West, its coordination through organizations like Catholic Charities, and the doctrinal shift in Vatican II (especially “Gaudium et Spes”) toward open borders and an embrace of United Nations globalism. (55:13–59:19)
• Debate within Catholicism over whether papal statements on such issues are “binding” or merely political; Jay argues that by Catholic canon law, the faithful are obliged to accept even “ordinary teaching” of the papacy. (58:09–58:54)
  • “Even if it’s not ex cathedra, you still have to submit with docility in your conscience. That’s Catholic canon law.” (Jay, 58:09)
• Vatican II’s problematic equivalence language about Christians, Muslims, and Jews “worshiping the same God”—a point Jay sees as both theologically and historically unsound. (61:12–62:52)

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7. US Politics: Trump, War, and the Epstein Files

• Critical, nuanced discussion about the standards for calling presidents “traitors” or “war criminals”, especially in the context of military actions in Iran or elsewhere.
  • Jay maintains: “If he did something that was treason, there would have to be a court, there would have to be trials.” (85:41)
• On recent controversy over Pam Bondi’s mishandling of Epstein files: Gerald critiques Bondi for apparent incompetence or possible cover-up, but both he and Jay note no direct evidence ties Trump to Epstein’s crimes.
  • “I’ve consistently maintained…I’ve not seen anything that directly implicates Trump in criminal activities. You have to be very explicit in what you’re referring to.” (Jay, 96:36)
• Jay highlights the key revelations in the files: Epstein’s ties to politicians, intelligence services, global elites, and advanced knowledge of geopolitical happenings, confirming the existence of elite criminal networks—but again, warns against conspiracy-mongering without direct evidence.
  • “Epstein is kind of that kind of a guy, who was able to network and organize these types of operations very well.” (Jay, 104:35)

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “It’s inconsistent…to pick the elements of this system that I think work and then reject all the metaphysics or the theology behind it because those, you know, they kind of go together.”
  — Jay Dyer, (08:04)

• “If you don’t believe in the Son, as the Son of God come in the flesh, you’re antichrist.”
  — Jay Dyer, (37:21)

• “The ethos of [Freemasonry] is essentially a syncretist, ecumenist type of view…all the religions are really just manifestations of some sort of generic theism.”
  — Jay Dyer, (15:52)

• “Life is more nuanced than that…you can have two organized crime factions fighting each other. That doesn’t mean that one of those guys is the good guy.”
  — Jay Dyer, (35:30)

• “Freemasonry is…a kind of retail version for most—the real dangerous stuff happens at the higher degrees where you’re vetted.”
  — Jay Dyer, (25:40)

• “Christianity and Islam are not friends. The idea that we have more in common is extremely dangerous and naive.”
  — Gerald, (54:46)

• “It creates a tunnel vision…the lenses that you wear…there’s a lot more going on than one group running everything.”
  — Jay Dyer, (83:01)

• “If you look at early Christianity and Judaism, there was actually still a place for the idea of multiple powers in heaven. Rabbinic Judaism solidifies its opposition to Christianity over time.”
  — Jay Dyer, (76:41, 77:28)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

[06:13] — Jay explains the importance of presuppositions in debate
[15:34–17:21] — The true ethos of Freemasonry and syncretism
[18:43] — Freemasonry, secret societies, and intelligence networks
[25:05–26:09] — The “vetting” process in Masonry for criminal elements
[35:19] — Sneako's viral post about Christians and Muslims
[37:21] — Islamic taqiyya and strategic deception
[49:52–51:14] — Comedic segment on bizarre hadiths (Satan farting, Jesus killing pigs)
[55:13–59:19] — Catholic Charities’ leading role in mass immigration; Vatican II and open borders
[61:12–62:52] — Vatican II’s equivalence language, Catholic-Muslim “same God” controversy
[83:01–83:16] — The danger of tunnel vision in conspiratorial thinking
[96:05–99:42] — Parsing the Epstein files, intelligence ties, and media disinformation
[104:22–104:50] — Epstein as criminal consultant; connections to political scandals

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Memorable Moments

• Comedic exchange about hadiths on Satan distracting prayer by farting, and Islamic injunctions against pigs, lampooning the idea that Islam is fundamentally compatible with Christianity (49:52–51:14).
• Jay’s direct rebuke of online meme-culture that seeks to divide Christians and ally with Islam: “It’s so silly…It’s dialectics. Life is more nuanced than that.” (35:30)
• Clear breakdown of Vatican II's legacy in transforming the Catholic Church’s social teaching on immigration and ‘unity of religions.’ (55:13–59:19)
• Jay's critique of conspiracy culture's tendency to “see everything through one lens” rather than recognizing complexity (83:01).
• Discussion of how failing to define terms leads to endless, fruitless debates, especially when discussing faith or politics (07:16–10:17).

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Conclusion

This in-depth conversation demystifies the current discourse on a supposed Islam-Christian “alliance,” debunks the notion as historically and theologically unfounded, and warns listeners about the dangers of meme-driven reductionism that pits groups against each other based on oversimplified, under-examined premises. The episode reminds Christians and conservatives to ground their beliefs in well-understood first principles, resist being manipulated by social media dialectics, and not lose sight of doctrinal or civilizational differences in the pursuit of political expedience or online popularity.

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Jay Dyer’s contacts and works:

• Website: jaysanalysis.com
• Twitter: @Jay_Dyer
• YouTube/Rumble/Instagram: Jay Dyer/Jay’s Analysis
• Recent book: Esoteric Hollywood 3

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For suggested topics or debate requests, listeners are encouraged to leave comments or reach out to Gerald. Future episodes may cover the Federal Reserve, rise of technocracy, and ongoing political investigations.

Transcript

[Gerald]

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[Jay Dyer]

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[Gerald]

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[Jay Dyer]

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[Gerald]

I love that song. I love that you know what? And I love you. Thank you for joining us. Not you, but most everybody else in here. I definitely love you. See this sign right here behind me? It means standing. Steven's either out or we tied him up somewhere where he can't really interrupt us. And that brings us to Gerald apologizes Apologetics. Gerald Apologizes Apologetics. It doesn't mean that. It doesn't mean that. You know what? At this point, I guess it doesn't matter. We're all going to have some fun with it anyway. I talk to you guys a lot about topics that touch on apologetics or topics that touch on religion and faith and where it intersects with politics or world events. And I love talking about those things because I think it's a fun conversation. I think you get to dive into subjects that maybe we don't have time to cover on the show as in depth. And it gives us an opportunity to kind of veer outside of the normal lines of stories that we talk about. I think in this case some of them will match up with things we've mentioned on the show. For example, we're going to be talking about Islam in the west and some real push to try to kind of sanitize Islam and make it seem like it is more compatible with Catholicism than it is with the evangelicals in Christianity or even Judaism. This is a post from Sneako that We'll get to here in just a minute. And why there is this push to try to, I guess, make it seem like Islam is not the threat that it is. We'll leave the judgment up to you. Obviously, you know my opinion on it. Also, the Freemasons, there's been conspiracy theories about these guys for years, but now there's actually a murder trial in France with Freemasons that went and killed a lot of people. I think there's 20 something people on trial. Maybe the conspiracy theorists had it right. And a couple of other topics that we will love to get a little bit more in depth with. And to do that and more, I bring people to the table who know more about this than I do so that you guys get the very best information. And that is why we have the very wonderfully talented Jay Dyer with us today. All right, Mr. Jay Dyer, welcome. Thank you for joining us. I hear you're on a road trip right now, getting all the podcasts.

[Jay Dyer]

You are 19 of 19. So.

[Gerald]

So we're the very tail end the dregs of Jay Dyer's brain at the end of how long? Five weeks.

[Jay Dyer]

Five weeks last week. Yes.

[Gerald]

Well, I feel special because we've saved you. You've saved the best for last in us. And that makes me feel it's only

[Jay Dyer]

because of location, not because of quality.

[Gerald]

Okay. It's not prioritized.

[Jay Dyer]

No, just location.

[Gerald]

It's okay if it was. Don't worry. Best place is to find you on X J0007 and Jay's analysis.

[Jay Dyer]

Actually, no, now it's. It's. Sorry, it's Jay Dyer. I bough J. Dyer on Twitter.

[Gerald]

You know, we're a professional show, but sometimes Dyer. J A Y D Y E R. Perfect. Okay. We have a few topics to get to that I think our audience will be pretty interested in. One of them is the Freemasons. And some really interesting. Maybe another conspiracy turns out, maybe not so conspiratorial. And then this real weird push that I've noticed lately over the last several months to san. Not just the several months to sanitize Islam.

[Jay Dyer]

Right.

[Gerald]

But this very interesting wedge that they are trying to drive between the kind of Catholic Orthodox side of the church and the more Protestant evangelical side and Judaism and saying you don't want to be like them. Right. Kind of using the Judaism wedge there. So just wanted to talk about that. And then also Pam Bondi being ousted as the Attorney General and what that means for the Epstein files. I know you've commented on that a lot, but before we get to all of those, you sent me a clip. You send me clips every once in a while of different debates. You know, I enjoy those things, so I appreciate that. But this was a conversation that you had. I'm not going to play the clip. But a conversation that Jay had with Tim Pool and you spent what I don't think was a planned half hour roughly kind of going through Tim's worldview. And I don't remember exactly how it came up other than like a free market system versus like a communist system. That's right, yeah. Company towns and blue jeans and selling all the. Okay, that's right. Anyway, go find the clip, guys. We'll. We'll try to include a link for it. It's about half an hour. You can find it on Jay's X account. I think you posted it there.

[Jay Dyer]

It's everywhere.

[Gerald]

Yeah, yeah. As well as YouTube. So it's, it's funny because it struck me and I wanted to get your take on this and really kind of explain like what was happening there, at least from your perspective. Because that wasn't really something that was supposed to be a 30 minute deep dive. And Tim got very frustrated. I love Tim. I think Tim was wrestling with some ideas in his head. But like what happened there kind of from your perspective?

[Jay Dyer]

Well, I have done multiple debates there, so I kind of expected there might be a debate. And I talked to Josie ahead of time and you know, I'd done Tim Gordon twice debating him there. And you've had Tim on.

[Gerald]

But there was a Protestant in one time that you guys.

[Jay Dyer]

There was.

[Gerald]

I think y' all basically both were like, yeah, you shut up and we're gonna nicely.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, so yeah, what happened was just in passing conversation the subject of company or I brought up company towns in comparison to kind of top down control structures. And I don't think there's a huge difference between the way Stalin would have run Russia and the way a company town would have been run. And that really seemed to be an issue of contention. So that led to a lengthy, protracted discussion defending whether a company town was really free market. I see it as more of a. Not Austrian economics principle system, but more of a monopoly capitalist system. And that then led into a debate about the history of communism, the history of capitalism, what classical liberalism is, what laissez faire is, what utilitarianism is. And I don't think Tim was aware that the positions that he was saying were actually utilitarian. Yeah.

[Gerald]

And that seemed to, that seemed to frustrate him when you pointed out like, well, that's this kind of position. He's like, oh, deal with the argument. You're like, well, I'm dealing with what underpins the argument. Like I'm going to the foundation of your argument. It's not dealing with kind of these one off issues that may come up from it. And it seemed like, and I was talking to you just before we went live, it seemed like Tim has a worldview that for the most part or large part, I haven't explored all of it. So I can't say I know every detail of what he believes, but it seems like it wants to be grounded in kind of Christian ethics. But he didn't want to say that, wanted to say like, this is actually something that we can observe in nature, this works. And you made some arguments there about how that's, that's kind of, that's a problem.

[Jay Dyer]

It's inconsistent basically to say, you know, well, I'm going to pick the elements of this system that I think work and then I'm going to reject all the metaphysics or the theology behind it because those, you know, they kind of go together. And also there's not really a basis to know what it means for something necessarily to work. Right. And I don't mean to get too philosophical, but in philosophy, just because something works well. Works to do what?

[Gerald]

Right.

[Jay Dyer]

I mean, a nuclear bomb could work to destroy all of my enemies, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily a good thing or it's ethical or whatever. So just having something work or it kind of begs the question as to, but what's the purpose? And is this working for something good or for something evil? So when you just sort of have these generic principles that you apply, that you appeal to, if there's not a basis for the principles, then it becomes very arbitrary. And that's kind of what I was trying to highlight. And I think like you said there, like one of the things that I always do if I'm debating an atheist or somebody like that is I go to the presuppositions and I critique what's underlying the arguments that they're making. And that usually ends up being a very devastating approach.

[Gerald]

Yeah. And why maybe tell the audience? Because I love debate. I don't like protracted debates that don't really get anywhere. I like debates that are actually fruitful, substantive, and you have a good faith partner on the other side that's willing to take good critique. And I think there's a lot of examples that stretch on for hours and hours where, I mean, I've seen Andrew debate people and try to get them to define a term for an hour and they refuse to define an obvious term. Right. And it's because they know where that leads. It's nowhere good for their argument. And a lot of people online don't really have much of a background in debate. I get it, that's fine. But if you do, you start to see very quickly, like, wait a minute, these arguments that we're having are on all these issues that aren't really the argument that we should be having or the conversation we should be having. It should be like, where are you getting your beliefs from? Like, what is the core of your belief? What are the anchor points, the epistemology. Right. Of like, what are you pulling from to get this belief? And if you don't know that, it can lead you into a lot of different crazy areas. Is that kind of what you find as well? You spend a lot of time trying to define terms and trying to go after kind of the basics of what people actually are pulling from.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, I agree with you. The formal debates tend to be a lot more fruitful because you have, you know, significant amount of time to explain your position and you also have, you know, cross examination with a good moderator. And those are a lot more fruitful than the sort of, you know, wild all over the place bloodsport type debates. But those can be fun and entertaining. Yeah, but it's a lot more fruitful when you can define the terms. I don't usually have too much of a problem defining terms because I think what happens, like with Andrew, he's got, he's really good at picking the cultural issues to debate. And then a lot of times when you have those cultural issues that you're debating, the opponents are going to be obsessed with or unable to define terms. I remember debating not so erudite, and she wanted me to define feminism, define this and that, and I defined it, but it was too specific because it was related to history. She just wanted a dictionary definition. So I think with a lot of the leftists and the sort of cultural people, they think that the meaning of a term or definition is just what you find in the dictionary. Of course, if you're debating movements or if you're debating big scale ideas or something like that, there's a lot more that goes into it. You can't just use a simple, oversimplified definition. I think in mainline debate that goes on out there, especially culture stuff, it's, it's a, it's a Different field than if you're trying to debate somebody this. On something that's very technical, that makes sense. And. And the temple debate, actually. And Andrew had the same debate, interestingly, with Tim a year before, over the notion of rights and justifying the rights and what do they. How do we ground them? I didn't know that, again, that that discussion was going to go in that direction, but it ended up going that way because it was just sort of a lot of appeals to general ideas that didn't have any grounding. And that's when you said epistemology. That's the key thing with. What we mean by that, typically in debate, is we need to know not just any old reasons for your belief, but what are the good reasons for the belief. Right. If I said I bought bitcoin when it was $10, and you say, oh, did you read a bunch of economics? No, I had a dream and God told me to buy bitcoin. Well, that's not a good reason to, you know, it might have worked.

[Gerald]

Yes.

[Jay Dyer]

But it's not a good reason.

[Gerald]

You're not going to try to replicate it. You're not going to build a system of beliefs or practices around that. And I. So this. I haven't had any formal training in debate. Andrew's talked to me about debating with him against a couple of people. And I always feel like I'm going to be on the court with like, you know, name your favorite bat, like Michael Jordan, and I'm just kind of like the water boy over here, you know, like very skilled people. And I feel like you're in that category too, where y' all have studied this. You have a good background in philosophy and you understand logic very well, and so many people don't. And I think that leads us to a place where we don't know why we believe what we believe. And I've always. I've said that for probably the last 10 years, know why you believe what you believe. It's incredibly important to know that. And I mostly meant it in the frame of biblical belief, like, if you believe in God, why, if you don't, why? And most people don't usually answer those questions. They just either do or don't. Right. And I think it's very important today for people to know why they believe what they believe. And when you interact online quite a bit, as I do, you see a lot of people that really have no clue. And it does. You are protected when you have those kind of moorings from buying crazy ideas. Yeah. And you can kind of go back to the roots of your beliefs and go, wait a minute, this is a little off the beam. And you can evaluate it. When you don't, you can just kind of float around and believe whatever you want. And you can be swayed by the doctrine of the day, essentially. So that's why I wanted to jump into that, because I think it's important to see, like, hey, there's some people that I like, like Tim Pool, who I think probably has, you know, way more in common with what I believe than what I would kind of reject of his beliefs. But it seemed like he really just didn't want to ground it in Christianity. He didn't want to ground it in Christian ethics and that belief. He wanted to kind of have it be broader, but he couldn't find any place to anchor it. And I thought that was interesting. So not a topic necessarily that I wanted to dive too deeply into, but I thought it was interesting. And I think it's instructive for us to make sure that we know why we believe what we believe. So when we talk about these things, I always know you have a reason for. Even if it's a conspiracy theory that you think is interesting. Right. Or want to dive into. But that kind of brings us to our first story. So you sent me this. Now, strangely enough, I'd actually seen this. I don't remember why I had seen this already, but Freemasons. So there are a lot of conspiracy theories out there about Freemasons. And just to clarify, just because I say it's a conspiracy theory, it's not necessarily the derogatory approach to it. It's that, you know, you can't really prove it. There's a lot of different theories about it. I don't mean it that way, at least. So defining a term doesn't mean it's a bad thing. But there are a lot of conspiracies out there about the Freemasons and things that happen. Until you read an article about the murders in France. And so we have the overlay here. Trials underway in France for 22 people who officials allege ordered or carried out crimes for a group of Freemasons living in the suburb of Paris. Multiple people killed in different fields and different industries. What is that? Because this is kind of right up your alley. I think you were at a Freemason point of interest recently. Yes, they had. What was that? Was that Mecca that they had?

[Jay Dyer]

Well, they did. So we went to the. On the wall Washington Monument. Okay, the. In Alexandria, not the Washington Monument, the D.C. but in Alexandria, they have a giant sort of temple that you can tour. And my wife had been there, and

[Gerald]

it's a temple to Freemasonry.

[Jay Dyer]

It is, right?

[Gerald]

Okay.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, but it's. It's a. The whole ethos. I was really just sort of honoring George Washington is the main theme of it. But my wife had been there like 10 years ago, and she was like, oh, you got to come see this. And I was just kind of like, I'm just, you know, I'm not that interested. But it was actually worth doing because we got a guy who's a historian, who's a Freemason, and he kind of gave us the full on. You know, like, here is what we actually believe. And if I was to summarize it, just simply, the ethos of it is essentially a kind of a syncretist, ecumenist type of view. So basically all the religions are really just manifestations of some sort of generic theism.

[Gerald]

Right.

[Jay Dyer]

And to be a Freemason does require acknowledging some generic creator. So you can't get into the lodge unless you believe there is a higher power, sort of an AA type of

[Gerald]

deity, but kind of an unnamed higher power. It's God, but, like, not maybe.

[Jay Dyer]

And they will actually shy away from the specifics. Right. So if you. If you want to believe in Jesus, that's fine, but don't tell the Hindu dude over here who joined the lives that his deity is wrong. So. And that's kind of what I knew from what I'd read. And I've looked. I always try to go to the sources of things. So if I'm going to talk about David Rockefeller's views, there's a big new Brzezinski's views. I want to talk about what they said in their book. Right. So I tend to not like conspiracy theories, even though I would be classed hosting Alex Jones, as, you know, in

[Gerald]

the domain of conspiracy guys, bring the 10 things. Foil hat out. Thanks, Gay frogs as well. That turned out to be true.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, I got tired of being called a conspiracy theorist in undergrad and grad school, so I decided, okay, I'll just read the books of these people and then you can't argue with me that I'm a conspiracy theorist.

[Gerald]

So it must have been fun at parties.

[Jay Dyer]

I've been asked to leave a few, so, yeah, actually, but back to the Freemason. So basically my overall assessment would be I've read Manly P. Hall, I've read Albert Pike, Morals and Dogma. So I'm familiar with the overall philosophy of the top Masons. But really it's just kind of an antithetical idea to what Jesus says in John 14. Right. I'm the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to Father, but through me. So that's the main, I think, point of contention. If you take the New Testament seriously, you'd have to disagree with that element of Freemasonry. But beyond that, I believe also from history, the British Empire, for example, they were very proficient at using the Masonic lodges as an intelligence network. And that's a good window into perhaps what we see with this news story is that it's just a really good venue you could say for organized crime to tap into and to use because of the oaths of secrecy. Secrecy, that kind of stuff. In this very case, for example, there were one or maybe two individuals who were working with French intelligence.

[Gerald]

Right.

[Jay Dyer]

And so again this overlap of secret societies and intelligence agencies, something that I've covered quite a bit over the years and in my books and in the Hollywood analysis, it makes perfect sense to me. So I'm not really surprised. Although I don't think we usually see this level of extremity when it comes to these types of cases. But there is similar stories with Operation Gladio, which was using the Grand Orient P2 Lodge and they were training people for these types of hits, terror events, assassinations, you name it. And you can go all the way back to America. There's a case of William Morgan, who was a Freemason or he was calling attention to the, he was murdered by Freemasons. And this led to America's short lived Anti Masonic party. There actually used to be really a party in America called the Anti Masonic Party due to the William Morgan event because the Masons had murdered a guy. So I don't think this is like super common, but I do think it exists in the better method of understanding it is. There's a historian, her name is Jessica Harlan Jacobs, she wrote a book called Builders of Empire and she really just points out that the, the British super state, the Empire, used the Masonic networks just as an intelligence apparatus. I think that's a lot of what's going on here probably in this case as well. I don't think the Masons are as popular as they used to be. You know, 100 years ago when you had people at Rudyard Kipling writing books about it. And there's a great movie that I think illustrates this point too. It's kind of a satire, but it's, it's Kipling's story, the man who would be king shot Michael Kane. Do you like Michael Caine? It's got Michael Caine, it's got Sean Connery, and they play Freemasons, and they go and they trick everybody in a village to believing in Sean Connery as a reincarnated Alexander the Great. So. But what's. Yeah, it's. It's kind of a satire. It's an. It's an adventure kind of story, but it's Kipling's story. Kind of trying to tell you what Freemasonry is. And so they kind of see it like, look, all the religions are kind of cons, but you can do a lot with this con, right? So I think Freemasonry.

[Gerald]

Interesting.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, I think Freemasonry is like that.

[Gerald]

Yeah. So, you know, when I first read this, you know, the first question was like, is this just, like, an isolated incident, or is this, like, proof of a broader conspiracy? But it seems like you. What you're saying is, like, it's fertile ground for these types of things to happen because of the secrecy, because of this, you know, we're doing something for a higher purpose. I don't know if that purpose is laid out or this higher good is laid out.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, in this case. Great question. In this case, there's two possibilities, because we don't really know exactly what was going on, but it could either be a situation where they actually were working at the behest of the French intelligence establishment and were being tasked with kind of outsourcing black ops and things that maybe the. The state didn't.

[Gerald]

With some distance.

[Jay Dyer]

Exactly. Plausible deniability. And I interviewed a while back, the famous gangster Sammy the Bull, and we did several podcasts. And he made a great point, too, is like, look, when I was raised up in Sicilian Mafia, he's like, we had a very similar structure to Freemasonry with the omerta, which is the oath you take, the blood oath of rituals that you go through to sort of join. And, you know, it's taken very seriously. And he's like, you know, I realize that this is very similar to the way that the Masons have historically structured things. And that's partly because the Freemasonic revolutionary, Franz Garibaldi, he had a very close relationship with the Sicilian Mafia. And so they kind of blended and had a lot of overlap. And if you get into the history of the Five Families, a great book by Selwyn Robb called the Five Families, first few chapters to get into this, the History of the Mafia. And there was an absolute connection between the Masons and The Mafiosi back then and Sammy the Bull, you know, confirmed all that. But long story short, I think that's another window into this, how it's similar to organized crime. But the other option, if it's not the state using this as a sort of excuse or proxy, could also be what's called false flag recruitment, which is where a person pretends to be somebody. Oh, hey, we're the CIA and you need to come work for us. But you're. They're actually Russians or something, right? Pretending to be. So it could be the case that it was just an organized crime outfit. It could be individual people running their own little criminal operation. Or it could have been something bigger. Something like a, you know, establishment, French establishment hit squad. And those do exist. Like there are.

[Gerald]

I don't disagree. Now, I. I don't know if they're the ones that got Charlie Kirk or not, but I do understand.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, you know what's so annoying about that was as soon as I saw this story, I'm like, okay, here go kids.

[Gerald]

I know, right?

[Jay Dyer]

Queen Qandas is going to immediately jump on this and say, I'm saying that. Cute with a Q. Like, no, I know. Q tard. Right?

[Gerald]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

Justification. I told y'. All. And it's like, no, that's not. This doesn't say anything about the French legionnaires. Has nothing to do with you.

[Gerald]

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[Gerald]

Well, and I think I appreciate you framing it that way because I think people may run to The. Okay, so the Freemasons are this organization that has their tentacles and everything and they're the initiators of these kinds of actions. And really it looks like these are kind of one offs where they're used in a large part. And also one of the guys in, I think in this article, one of the guys who committed some of the crimes, I don't know if it was the, the murders or if it was just some of the robberies or other things that they did, said he thought he was working for. I believe he said he thought he was working for the French government.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah. Which could be a false exact recruitment.

[Gerald]

Exactly. Right. So it fits right with what you were saying.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, that's a possibility too. And I also want to stress that like this is so I think European Masonry does have a bit of a different flavor to the way Bible Bell. You know, granddaddy at the lodge. My granddad was in the Masonic Lodge. He was a Shriner.

[Gerald]

My best friend growing up was a Mason.

[Jay Dyer]

I have a family member that is. And they don't know any of this stuff. Right. So. But what I think happens is that you get vetted and recruited and invited to higher level stuff. So it's kind of a vetting process. Right. So if you're willing degrees.

[Gerald]

Right.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah. If you're willing to do more intense, extreme things. And I think the way it works in America and the Scottish right. Is like you don't get invited to the DC 33rd degree unless you're very prominent. And that's, I think, where things would probably get a little more serious. But the local Blue Lodge, the three, you know, three degrees, the local Blue Lodge, where everybody's just meeting and I don't know, eating spaghetti or whatever they do. I don't know. But boomers eating potluck food.

[Gerald]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

Is probably not feeling like they're a

[Gerald]

part of a history society taking over the world or secretly controlling things. I thought it was the Jews. Turns out it was the Masons. Okay, well, I want to keep kind of going with that for just one second. Are there any other. Just to dispel or confirm any other concerns that we should have potentially about Freemasons? Because that's one. Right. Like if they are kind of carrying out these targeted attacks on people that would be against whatever Freemasons are for in that particular area. Is there anything else concerning about that? Like going back to the, you know, the, the all gods are kind of there.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, I think this, this, the concerning element is even at the Blue Law is like the Basic idea is still a kind of syncretism or pluralism that just doesn't fit with. With Christ's teaching.

[Gerald]

So as a Christian, it's definitely not an organization that you should be a part of.

[Jay Dyer]

I don't see how a Christian could be. You know, I mean. And of course, the Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church in their official teachings say that you can't. It's a violation of canon law. Many classic Protestant churches have also said you can't. You know, I guess that doesn't apply to Baptist deacons because most. Most Baptist deacons are members of the lodge, but. Yeah, so they're also drinkers, so. Well, yeah, but the other thing I would add, too, is, like. And I'm not defending, like, the Scottish Rite, I think it's just as. As bad theologically as the European Grand Orient. But there's a lot more nefarious kind of stuff that tends to happen in, like, the Grand Orient Lodges because they were very famous in the French Revolution for helping to support the revolutionaries and their, you know, Committee for public safety. 10, 20,000 people getting their heads chopped off.

[Gerald]

Oh, wow. Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

So then the Masonic elements had a huge role in that, particularly the really radical Jacobins. And they were very closely tied to the lodges of Europe. And. And that's not from. That's from my, like, historian professor. Yeah, in undergrad, he was like, a specialist on French Revolution. He was like. Yeah, it was. It was basically a Freemasonic thing. And I think that's a different flavor typically from what you have in other branches perhaps of Masonry. But overall, you're right. I think there's still spiritually bad.

[Gerald]

There's almost like there's a retail version of Masonry that most people are probably involved with that are you Masonry. And then there's some that maybe has a history, like you said, of being much more active and playing a bigger part in the local society. Okay, well, very interesting. When I saw this story and I was like, I don't know where we're gonna go with this. I don't know if, like, are Freemasons really? Is this gonna end up being another Dan Brown book or something? Like, different stories.

[Jay Dyer]

But one last thing, too, that I think is a good window into this for what I'm talking about with the European element is the propaganda Douay Lodge, and that's Italy's elite Grand Orient Lodge, and that's where Gladio recruited a lot of its hit squads from. So this is probably Grand Orient Masonry. I don't know which lodge it is, but that would make a lot more sense with the way Gladio was structured, which is the post World War II, Cold War era CIA training of. And Kissinger really ran this whole operation, according to multiple sources, to stave off a Soviet invasion of Europe.

[Gerald]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

And that led to the compromising the Vatican bank, et cetera. So that's what this kind of looks like is that style of thing.

[Gerald]

That's crazy. I mean to hear something like that. It feels like something that's 30 or 40 years past its prime, you know, like there was a lot more fervor about this when I was a kid and talking, you know, you would hear Cold War talk about it. Yeah, exactly around that time period. Okay, well that makes sense then. But the Cold War stuff, the timing makes a lot of sense. By the way, I read it's a book on the CIA, something in Ashes.

[Jay Dyer]

Legacy of Ashes.

[Gerald]

Legacy of Ashes. Thank you. It was really good. And it's like, wow, we were just throwing stuff against the wall. We had no idea. They're talking about how many people that the CIA had sent into these countries to gather intel or to try to subvert governments and they were just mowed down because they already knew we were coming or they had an informant. Like we were not prepared at all.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, I just did a crazy interview with John Kiriaki. We did a two hour interview on a lot of this stuff and he was saying basically. Basically the same separate interview, but he was saying that he was one of the guys that was tasked with coming up with crazy ideas.

[Gerald]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

So he would say I would come up with 20 different crazy ideas and we would do two of the 20 crazy ideas. But that's part of the job of an operative was to come up with crazy ideas. And yeah, a lot of times people get killed.

[Gerald]

Lots the way that the, the book described it. It was just like sometimes 10, 20, 30 people that were dropped into a country were immediately captured and killed.

[Jay Dyer]

Yep.

[Gerald]

I mean immediately, like as they hit the ground, they were like, they were met with like an entourage of welcome but not for welcoming purposes.

[Jay Dyer]

He said the same thing about his operations in Greece. And I didn't realize how, how vicious the leftists in Greece were in the Cold War and well, post Cold War and towards the end of the Cold War. But I mean they were, they were like the hit squads. It was crazy. Like you don't think of the left. You know, we think of the left as like the purple haired freaks at college, but.

[Gerald]

Or something.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, but no, these are like serious

[Gerald]

AOC with like an Uzi in training. Exactly.

[Jay Dyer]

Real leftists. Yeah.

[Gerald]

All right, well, let's dive into another topic this one touches on. Obviously there's a faith thread through just about everything that we do, but specifically, obviously in the Mason sized Christians Masonry, not so good. Let me know in the comments what you think. If you disagree, I'll point you to the all gods kind of thing that violates what we talked about. And we're going to dive into Islam and Islam's kind of relationship to the West. And it's very interesting. I've seen a move here with what happened in Gaza. October 7th happens. Israel, love them or hate them, has been kind of in a decent position with the United States, probably a pretty, pretty favorable position with the general population in the United States. That support goes up because it's a tragedy and it's an event that we're like, everybody's shocked by. Right. You can get into how it happened, why it happened, all of the stories about that. And then the aftermath is no matter what you think about Israel, no matter what you think about Gaza and Hamas, it's a tragedy when something like that happens in Gaza. Nobody, I think, on any kind of credible side of this has been denying that it's a tragedy. It's just whether or not that is something that should have happened, shouldn't have happened, should have happened differently. I'm in the camp of they should have taken care of Hamas, but it should have happened much differently. I think he lost a lot of support for a reasonable cause, a debatable cause. Right. And Israel's standing, especially among the younger generation, has just plummeted, just absolutely plummeted to the point where I see posts that I'm like, listen, I've seen these kinds of things before and it doesn't normally lead to a very good place. There's a difference between saying, I think Netanyahu is probably a war criminal, he probably needs to be tried so they can get to the bottom of it. I think there's plenty of war crimes. You can probably look, that happened in Gaza and we should make sure nothing like that ever happens again. Two, we need to kill all the Jews or we need to get rid of the state of Israel completely and wipe it off the map or, you know, from the river to the sea. Sounds like a great idea. Now talking not just about, you know, the river that's close, the river that's far, like there would be no Israel after that. I've seen that kind of stuff and then I've seen people start to really kind of turn on President Trump in a way that I was very surprised by. And we've been critical where it's necessary because we disagree with some of the things he's done. We disagree with how he's handling some of the optics around big stories. And we'll talk about one of those with the Epstein files in a little bit. I have some substantive disagreements as well, but at the very least, it was horribly messaged.

[Jay Dyer]

Right.

[Gerald]

And that's fine to have that kind of a disagreement, but when you start turning on everybody that has a pretty good track record has been pretty consistent on these issues in the past, and you start kind of aligning yourself with somebody who you would never a few years ago consider a friend or an ally. That's probably a better way to say it because there might be some good people, but you wouldn't align with their views. It gets really dicey. And that doesn't mean, like, you know, you may not like President Trump. You may think he's gone completely off the rails and whatever. I'm not saying that. I'm saying, like, going so far as to go, well, if I can't trust this anymore, I'm going to go to Islam. And I'm a Christian. That's the kind of world that I'm seeing right now. And I don't know that I really understand completely what's going on, but I see it as kind of this wedge. And so let me just bring up this post by Sneako that kind of illustrates my point. And I can't remember exactly what day. So if we can bring up Sneako. He posted this on X. Is there a date down there? It's a little too small for me to see. It's in march. Is it March 5th? 6th. Okay, so March 6th, he posted this. Catholic Orthodox Christians have more in common with Muslims than they do with the warmongering evangelicals. And listen, he's saying warmongering. He's just saying evangelicals in government and worship Jews and. I'm sorry, in government who worship Jews and want Armageddon. How did that strike you? Because I know you've. I think you've tangled with Sneako before.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, we actually had a sort of debate. I mean, actually that was funny because the debate was. Was Andrew versus Sneako and his buddy apologists. I forget the guy's name.

[Gerald]

Is this the one where he refused and they.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, they booted Andrew.

[Gerald]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

Because Andrew was making some. Some jokes that they didn't.

[Gerald]

He started off nice.

[Jay Dyer]

They didn't like the jokes, and then they said, will you come debate Trinity instead of that. And so I hopped on and we ended up having is Muslim lantern. That's the guy. So we had a two hour debate. And it's funny because they. I can't find that debate other than my clips of it. So I think they were not a huge fan of that debate. I don't think it's on Rumble anymore. It may, it may be. I just can't find the title. It's not on YouTube. I know sneako got taken down off of YouTube, but regardless. So I'm familiar with this, this line of reasoning. I think it's so low tier, it's so silly that, that it's. It's surprising that people fall for it. But then again, to answer your question, I think it's dialectics. Humans are very susceptible to two choices. And if you choose this one, then the other one's the bad guy. Right. And life is more nuanced than that. Right. You can have two organized crime factions fighting each other. That doesn't mean that one of those guys is the good guy. Right. Tony Soprano goes to war against the five families in the show. And they're all bad guys, but they have different motivations. So I think in geopolitics is pretty similar. And this one is a little more hairy though, because it brings in religion, which makes it more difficult. But people do not understand that Islam is not the friend of Christianity. They think that that whole, you know, we're, we're closer on the same page. Because Muslims say Jesus is a prophet. Yeah. But John says in 1 John 2, if you don't believe in the son, as the son of God come in the flesh, you're antichrist. And Muslims also have the teaching in the Quran, which I didn't believe this back before I had studied Islam, I thought, oh, they're just saying that about Muslims. It's not true. But no, they actually have the teaching that you smile with your face, but you oppose them in your heart. And that's what they do until they have the upper hand.

[Gerald]

That's actually kind of deception, essentially.

[Jay Dyer]

They can do that. Yes. And by the way, Allah in the Quran is the greatest of deceivers. So why would you not be able to be a deceiver? If Allah is the greatest of deceit,

[Gerald]

kind of falls apart really quickly.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah. And so although the Sunnis will say, oh, technically we can't do taqiyah, they still can and they still will, even though the Shias believe that they specifically can do deception. So they do it until they have the upper hand. I think everybody's probably seen in the UK how different it is. I went to the UK in 2018 or 19 to speak at a conference and it was just. It's like Londonistan. It's Islam. Okay? That's by design, it's not accidental. And the evil socialist leadership, the Fabian socialist, Keir Starmer is the Fabian socialist. And the people before him that ran the country all the way back to Blair, right, they, they believe that no, Islam is the great ally, it's the great friend. And they intentionally opened it up to change the demographics and the country by design. And they bet. They said, by the way, 100 years earlier that the elites of the UK would do that. They said they would do that. Bertrand Russell was saying, we'll change Europe in the UK with Islam 100 years before people were doing it today. So this is not a new thing. And if you think about it, well, demographic warfare is not new. It's ancient. Right. And that's kind of what this is. But to get back to Islam and sneako. So, yeah, I think that people are being. Because people in America don't know the history and the religion of Islam, they think that because there's these statements that Jesus is a prophet or Mary's a virgin, that's much closer to what, you know, Judaism or something says. But again, it's not, it's, it's completely opposite of what they, well, they, they believe that you, if you believe in the Trinity, you're an idolater and, and eventually they do have the right to kill you. Yeah. If it's this the type of Islamic regime that's like a Sunni. Now, I'm not pro Shia or anything like that, but historically Shias have had a tendency to be a little more amenable to Christians because this gets really hairy. But Shia Islam is Neoplatonism.

[Gerald]

Define kind of the fields for us of who we're talking about. What nations typically would you think of as predominant?

[Jay Dyer]

Iran is Shia and that's the branch of Islam that is they're ruled by mullahs and they believe in a kind of a lineal descent that has to be from Muhammad, from the different.

[Gerald]

And that's really the divide is tracking the descendants and who really had the real faith and passed it on.

[Jay Dyer]

And they link it definitely to that. But what's interesting about Shia Islam is that it's very influenced by Sufism and Neoplatonism. We had a talk with one of the top Shia guys. He's a teacher at Harvard. His name is Dr. Khalil Ondani, and he debates the Sunnis all the time. And one of his main arguments is that Sunni Islam is just sort of crazy because the Quran, in his view and in their view, is just another form of Neoplatonism. So they will be at great lengths to try to. In other words, they're a little more. Do you know what perennialism is? Are you familiar with that idea for the audience?

[Gerald]

I think I understand it, but it's one of those terms where I'm like, I could be off. I could think it means pizza, and it doesn't. So let's make sure. Perennialism.

[Jay Dyer]

Pepperoni. Perennialism.

[Gerald]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

So basically, it's the idea that it's not exactly like what Masons would say, but it's the idea that there is a skeletal structure of all the world religions that's something akin to Neoplatonism. Like, that's a superstructure. And then the world religions are kind of like skeletal, like outfits that the superstructure masks itself on under.

[Gerald]

If that makes sense.

[Jay Dyer]

And so the Shia Islam has that type of a view now. It's a. It's an insane eschatological cult.

[Gerald]

Yes.

[Jay Dyer]

So I'm not defending it. I'm saying that there are situations.

[Gerald]

The 12th Imam stuff.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah. Told about hidden Imam. That's like some mystical, hidden dude.

[Gerald]

The apocalyptic kind of component through their eschatology is like, that's one thing that they don't. That they're not lying about when they tell you that on Fox News. That is true. Now, how it kind of plays out and manifests, that's different. Maybe, maybe they overplay that hand a little bit, but there is that kernel of truth there.

[Jay Dyer]

Right. And for example, in Syria, you know, Assad was an Alawite, which is a sect that is very similar to what we're talking about with Shia. They have a more of a Sufi type, tolerance type of view. And so ironically, under Assad, Christianity fared a lot better in Syria than when they brought Jalani in, who was the hardcore Sunni. So that's Shia Islam, but Sunni Islam, and it has a lot of different flavors. And sex is not based on some sort of descent from Islam. Anyone can potentially become an imam. And if you watch the debates that I do, most of the debates, almost all debates actually have been with the Sunni sort of radical types, like Jake, the Muslim metaphysician, Daniel Hikachu, Muslim lantern. They're all sort of the Saudi Arabian style sort of Sunni. They're called Salafi, which means the original Righteous. Of the first couple generations of Islam. And they take it very seriously in that literal. We're not figurative with the Quran. Like the Shia are like, everything is like a literal sort of jihad type of thing.

[Gerald]

Yeah. And when I said, like, the lineage, it was like, who had the truth? Right. Because there was debate over, like, how many. There were like 20 something versions, I believe, of the Quran.

[Jay Dyer]

And Uthman had them burned.

[Gerald]

Right, Exactly. They all had. All of them burned. Burned. And it's like this one. And so the debate is, okay, well, what is the true Islam? And that's where you get the different sects. And even within some, like you said Sunni, there's different flavors of it because you have different kind of tradition.

[Jay Dyer]

So your question, like, where does Christianity fare better? It kind of just depends on the flavor of Islam. For example, you have Ottoman Turks and sultans who probably didn't even believe the religion, but it was a very useful tool for the Ottoman Empire. And they would absolutely persecute Christianity. They would. They would take the girls into slavery. Christian ladies would. Would be brought into, you know, sex trafficking. You know, sultans would even have like a harem of boys. I mean, just terrible stuff, which isn't actually what even the Quran teaches. Right. You're not supposed to be gay, but

[Gerald]

I thought they threw them off buildings, last I checked.

[Jay Dyer]

No, well, no, I'm saying, like, everybody. The sultans would do what they wanted.

[Gerald]

No, no, no.

[Jay Dyer]

But they had a religion for the people. Right. That was Sunni Islam. But anyway, so for example, the British Empire, they made an alliance with a lot of Sunnis and what are called Wahhabi, eventually against the Ottomans, and they wanted to sort of pit them off against each other. That's why you have Saudi Arabia and all these countries in the Middle east. After Sykes Picot agreement and all that, the British Empire sort of divided up the Middle east, and we get blamed

[Gerald]

for it all the time. The ones that freaking started.

[Jay Dyer]

They did start.

[Gerald]

We had a role. Don't get me wrong. I'm just saying they don't really get fragged with a lot of this, and we do.

[Jay Dyer]

And I'm sorry, I don't mean to go off.

[Gerald]

No, you're fine.

[Jay Dyer]

Back to the question. So. So everybody's presented with this sort of false choice of like, well, you know, if, if we're gonna. So if, if Trump made. If Trump's making a mistake, if the evangelicals are wrong. Oh, then the Muslims must be good.

[Gerald]

Well, yeah. And that's almost like Orange man bad. So therefore, whatever opposes Orange Must be good.

[Jay Dyer]

That's the fault I like.

[Gerald]

So it's right now, as I read the room, it's Israel bad. Israel controls the United States. So therefore we're tied into it bad. And we're going against the Muslims. So Muslims good. And people are buying this. And it's not just like the sneako types that are saying this. Like, he's saying this for a reason right now. It's part of a strategy to kind of to split off Catholic and Orthodox from evangelicals. Really read that as Protestants at large and like we needed one more reason to have a split to some degree. I mean, like, it's like, come on, that's a fissure. Let's just let us heal a little bit. All right, we're working on it. But I'm a little struck by it because it doesn't like on the surface, as somebody who, and I don't have the in depth understanding that I think you and many others have on this, but I did teach a class called the Christian's Response to Islam. I have been to Indonesia and I have preached the name of Jesus Christ in the largest, you know, Islamic country in the world. Not in the cities, but in Aceh, kind of in the northern part of the island there. So I understand what it's like to be in these places. And I've done outreach to Muslims before and I felt that kind of really dark presence of being in a demonic culture and go like, how can you ever think that there's an alliance that would. Evangelicals still believe way, way, way more like the fundamental things like Jesus Christ being the Messiah, there is no option for him not to be. And Islam doesn't give him anything other than, well, actually, he lied to you. He's not the Messiah, he's just the prophet. Right? And he's going to step aside one day. And in their eschatology, it's kind of the exact opposite of Christian eschatology, depending on what flavor you subscribe to. And then for Judaism, it' like, Jesus wasn't even afforded that he was actually a false Messiah. And I understand the remarks about him being in the Talmud, burning in feces. So how do you think these things are compatible? If you just use that one example of, okay, well how do they treat Jesus? That's all you have to go to. And it's like, well, how are these things compatible?

[Jay Dyer]

Well, the best explanation for Islam, when you really want to know what it really is, it's a copy and paste. It's a copy and paste, not just of Elements of Christianity, Judaism and Zoroastrianism. Judaism. Yeah, exactly. Pagan elements. Gnostic teaching is there. There's a great book by a guy named Gabriel Said Reynolds, and he's a scholar on the history of Islam and its texts. And I forget the name of the book, but I had to use it for one of my. I read the whole thing for one of my Islamic, I think the Daniel Hikkikachu debate that I did. And basically what he does is he takes 10 examples from the Quran about where it's just lifted from the Bible and from pseudepographa and from gnostic texts. And they actually just mix up the stories.

[Gerald]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

And so it's not even consistent with the original narrative. And probably that has to do with Muhammad being illiterate. Right. So he was hearing things and he would just sort of create the religion or him and his buddies or what, warlord buddies. And so it was. There was not really a concern with consistency. So the stories get all mixed up. For example, you have Jesus being the messiah. That's a specific Hebrew term for the anointed one.

[Gerald]

Right.

[Jay Dyer]

In Islam, they don't know what this. There's no significance for this term because he's not the fulfillment of the Jewish prophecies to be the world's messiah.

[Gerald]

Right.

[Jay Dyer]

He's just called Messiah. And there's no theological significance to it. Right, right. Very similar with the dietary laws or the Levitical washings. You know, in Christian theology we would say, well, those are types of baptism or spiritual realities and so forth. You know, Paul in the New Testament says, for example, that the unclean animals and the clean animals are like pedagogical teaching device about morals. Right. In Islam, it's just all. It just says do that. There's literally no significance or purpose for these things. So you can tell. Well, so this is just like a dude who's illiterate, hearing stories, crafting a religion, and he doesn't even know the context. And there's so many examples of this. It gets crazy. Like they think that. They think that the. The Ark of the Covenant was a box that would fly.

[Gerald]

Really?

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah. And that it had under the stone that ascended.

[Gerald]

And basically the prophet said, no, stay, you know, here. Well, it's like you supposed to be.

[Jay Dyer]

You could. Well, so here.

[Gerald]

I didn't know there was a box.

[Jay Dyer]

No. So the Ark of the Covenant has wings.

[Gerald]

Okay.

[Jay Dyer]

Because of the seraphim.

[Gerald]

Right.

[Jay Dyer]

And so Muhammad thought it was a flying bomb.

[Gerald]

Maybe he saw into the future. And it's really a drone. I don't know, the drone of the covenant.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, here's the thing also, when Jesus comes back, he destroys all pigs.

[Gerald]

Well, but pigs are amazing. They turn garbage into bacon.

[Jay Dyer]

Exactly.

[Gerald]

I mean, why would we do that?

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah.

[Gerald]

Well, I know the Jews don't like pigs either because of the dietary laws and everything else like that, but I know that we believe that those were kind of taken care of.

[Jay Dyer]

So I was. I was on with a guy who does a lot.

[Gerald]

You're really missing out, Jews. Like, you need to read the New Testament. Life gets tastier.

[Jay Dyer]

I was on with a guy who does a lot of Muslim expose type stuff, and he was pointing out that I think this is in the hadith, that when it's a. It's a strong hadith, meaning that the Sunnis have to accept it, that when. When Muhammad comes back, Jesus will come back and destroy all the pigs. And my thought, when I first heard this, I was like, well, surely that means something spiritual. Right? Like, he's going to spiritually kill the goats. Right. The people to his left hand, the pigs.

[Gerald]

Right, right, right. Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

And it's like. No, it's the pigs.

[Gerald]

Like, like, literally.

[Jay Dyer]

Like, literally.

[Gerald]

Job number one, kill all the pigs.

[Jay Dyer]

Kill all pigs.

[Gerald]

Job number two, we'll. We'll figure that out when we get there. But let's just get past the pigs first. Okay.

[Jay Dyer]

Also, by the way, not for, like

[Gerald]

a barbecue purpose either, but like, to just get rid of.

[Jay Dyer]

They're just bad.

[Gerald]

Right.

[Jay Dyer]

And also, Satan can apparently fart in the hygiene. It's true.

[Gerald]

Really?

[Jay Dyer]

Yes. And so this.

[Gerald]

Wait.

[Jay Dyer]

Yes. You're thinking. I'm thinking. Okay, he's a spiritual being. He doesn't have.

[Gerald]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

Biology. But now you can still rip one, apparently. And if. If he does, that will distract you from the call to prayer. So what? Yes.

[Gerald]

I don't know, Jay. So I do need that.

[Jay Dyer]

I'm being serious. This is in the hadiths.

[Gerald]

And so this is a strong hadith,

[Jay Dyer]

or the other one, if I recall. It's a strong one. Yeah.

[Gerald]

Okay. Satan can break wind and distract. To distract you from prayer. Is it because you'll look around and go, who farted?

[Jay Dyer]

Probably, like, presumably.

[Gerald]

Come on, guys. I know we're all bowing down and everybody's in, like, a really tough to hold it in position. But.

[Jay Dyer]

And, and think about it. So like, Muhammad sitting. Right.

[Gerald]

That's crazy.

[Jay Dyer]

He's sitting around with the warlords. Somebody rips one, that must be Satan. That's a hadith right there.

[Gerald]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

No, no, Crucial hadith right there.

[Gerald]

You Know what it was? It was the guy that did it not taking responsibility.

[Jay Dyer]

He.

[Gerald]

Because it really reeked and it really screwed up the prayer meeting. And he's like, it wasn't me, Carl. Okay. This is me. It was Satan.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah. This is Arabic. Sbd, right?

[Gerald]

Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. Okay.

[Jay Dyer]

I'm not joking. This is true. And this shows how silly this is.

[Gerald]

This is real. And so, you know, that's the thing about this, because Islam and, you know, people obviously walk on eggshells when you're talking about it, but I think it's fair to be critical where it's necessary. Like I said, I'm critical of President Trump when he does things that I think are bad for the country, bad for the world in general and our place in it. It doesn't mean doing what Europe wants us to do. Don't get me wrong.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah.

[Gerald]

I love when he pisses off Europe. I'm like, good. Those pricks need to be put back in their place. But I do think you need to be able to describe what actually is Islam, what actually is Catholicism. You've had your issues with the Pope. We talked about that. You've had your issues with the structure of Catholicism. I think you've debated Trent Horn or you've talked him.

[Jay Dyer]

We did the debate, yes. Six years ago.

[Gerald]

Okay. Yeah. It's been a little while. And it's totally fine to be critical. You've been critical of other Orthodox brothers if you have a disagreement. Like, it's fine to have these things, but for some reason, you can't talk about the realities of Islam as a Christian or anybody else. It's one of those protections. And I don't think that's. I think it's very bad for us, and I think it's very bad. And I'll tie this together. I think it's very bad to say it's a psyop because they don't want you to look at how bad the Jews are, because there's a lot of people out there saying, okay, they're going back to their Islam trope because they want to distract you. Maybe somebody's doing that. Fine. Like, there's a 5%. But there. This has been a problem for a very long time. These worldviews are not compatible. These cultures really are not compatible. Like, we're very, very different. And for you to start to think that you have more in common with Islam than you do with Protestants as a Catholic or an Orthodox is a huge problem for us, because that will divide us in ways that they absolutely want. Like, this is part of their strategy. You talked about it a hundred years prior on kind of the using. You know, it's. It's funny, I think back to Braveheart, you know, if we can't get them out, we'll breed them out.

[Jay Dyer]

The prison doctor. No, that's right.

[Gerald]

Right. It's. It's that same kind of mentality. And I remember watching, I think it was called. It's either called Epicenter or something similar to that. I think Joel C. Rosenberg did it. I think this was him. I watched a number of videos at the time back in, like, 2007, 2008, and he did a video about the population and needing the replacement population level being 2.1 or 2.2, whatever it was, and saying how Germany, at this rate, would be a predominantly Muslim country by 2050. And this was back in 2007 or eight that I was watching this stuff and seeing, like, oh, my gosh. Like, this is a real, real problem. But I think people right now would say, jews bad, therefore don't believe them, that this is a problem. And we're really kind of. I mean, I want your opinion on this. I really feel like we're sleepwalking into a really massive issue with Islam like the UK is facing. And it's all because, well, Jews must be bad. So therefore maybe these guys really aren't that bad.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, one of the things I took issue with with some of the commentators that you had on the screen there, like Sneako and others, was over this issue of who was actually the largest supporter of illegal immigration in the last several years. And a lot of people point to the Jewish organization HIAS, but they were, like, minimal. They were like 5%. The biggest was Catholic Charities by, like, really massive percentage, like 80% masses.

[Gerald]

How did they support.

[Jay Dyer]

How did Catholic Charities, everything from money to sanctuary cities to human trafficking, all of that is involved in the way that the Roman Catholic Church in America has facilitated it. And by the way, the papacy and The United. The U.S. conference of Catholic Bishops openly says, open your borders. I mean, all the way back to Francis, they've been saying, we should open our borders. France should not have borders. Uk, They've been. All of Europe should not have borders. I mean, they. They openly say this consistently. And then the Roman Catholics on Twitter, and they will be like, oh, yeah, how dare you go against the Pope. Like, dude, the Pope is destroying Europe. What are you talking about?

[Gerald]

What is their argument? Like, steel, man, Their position. The people that would defend the Popes

[Jay Dyer]

or Defenders, they would either say that it's a political position so it's not theologically binding, something like that, or hear

[Gerald]

that so often I'm like, okay, well then, then what is. What's the point if you're having a pope and he can just say some stupid stuff like, well, it's not ex cathedra or whatever. Okay, fine, so it's not, I guess, binding. So what is the real, like, do you think the average parishioner knows that or believes it's like, whatever he says as the vicar of Christ, that's the word of God. So therefore I have to believe and follow that. I know there's people in Catholicism that fight over different issues. There's different kind of flavors there too. But. But it just seems like a coward's way out of defending the argument.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah. And also, you'll never get a consistent principle as to when it is and isn't binding.

[Gerald]

This was the last anti Catholic, by the way. Like, there's a lot of good people there. I just. I don't like it when you run from what is obviously true. That was the really frustrating part. I had meetings with Catholics or specific Catholic. We'd talk theology. He was a part of our Bible study. He was a great guy. Loved him. And he would raise questions and we would constantly talk through stuff, but it almost always came back to, well, that wasn't like an official teaching of the church.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah. Whenever it doesn't work is when it's not official.

[Gerald]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

[Jay Dyer]

And I know because I used to be in that world, I should try to make.

[Gerald]

Well, you were Catholic too, right? I tried to make it work and then became orthodox. When did you become Orthodox?

[Jay Dyer]

20, 16, 17.

[Gerald]

Okay. Somewhere now. Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

And yeah, because I remember trying to make that work and forced to force the square peg into the round hole. Right. So the, the issue, though, with the geopolitical side of it is that, you know, the papacy, especially since Vatican post, Vatican 2 has pretty much been on board with all the globalization agendas.

[Gerald]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

And this is a thing that nobody ever talks about, which I've been highlighting. There's a document in Vatican 2 which all Vatican II is binding. Even if, by the way, something's not ex cathedra, you still have to follow according to Roman Catholic canon law, the ordinary teaching, as it's called, of the papacy, even if you disagree and you think that it's not infallible, you still have to submit with docility in your conscience. That's Catholic canon law teaching.

[Gerald]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

So they could disagree, but they can't. They're not supposed to publicly oppose the papacy in their system.

[Gerald]

But it's kind of like, you know, the NFL, you can't speak about the refs kind of thing. You can be pissed off.

[Jay Dyer]

Is that how it is?

[Gerald]

Fine, if you say it, but there's

[Jay Dyer]

a document called Gaudium et Spes, which was Vatican II's social and political statement. Everybody focuses on the documents related to ecumenism and how Muslims and Christians and Jews worship the same God, which is all problematic. That's not challenging. There's Lumen Gentium 16, but there's another important document that's overlooked called Gaudium et Spes. And this has to do with the Vatican's political statement. And it openly says we're four chain migration, open borders. We want to get rid of self defense amongst nations.

[Gerald]

Really?

[Jay Dyer]

Yes.

[Gerald]

It's very like at the nation level or. Really?

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah.

[Gerald]

So armies are bad.

[Jay Dyer]

Yes. Borders are bad. Because this. So in other words, it's like a socialist document.

[Gerald]

It's worse. Like you. I mean, at least most socialist countries actually had some borders still. They were great at checkpoints. Jay, I don't know if you've ever.

[Jay Dyer]

This document actually says we want to support UNESCO and United Nations. So it's basically United nations style document.

[Gerald]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

And that I think is another key window into pinpointing. Okay, maybe prior to Vatican ii, Pius XII still upheld some traditional values, but post Vatican ii, they become explicitly a sort of voice of a United nations style view of nation states. And that's never changed. And in fact, each successive pope, even if we wanted to argue that, I think John Paul had a lot of problems, but a lot of times Catholics say, oh well, he helped in the Cold War. Okay, well let's grant that Francis and Leo have gone even further with, you need to open your borders up. You can't have the death penalty. The death penalty is anti pro life. That's 100% contrary to all the traditional Catholic teaching about the death penalty. So they've consistently, absolutely contradicted. And like you said, even if we were to grant that it's not ex cathedral, which by the way, Vatican II is ordinary universal teaching, you can't reject Vatican ii.

[Gerald]

Right.

[Jay Dyer]

But even if we did grant that, these are all political, personal opinions, you are still supposed to follow the papal ethical teaching, even if you disagree. And that's in their canon law. So you have to submit with docility is the terminology. So it makes no sense to say. And again, this is the same papacy that says we worship the same God as the Muslims. Right.

[Gerald]

So are they finding, I mean, steel man. The argument too, for me, from. And I say that because I want to know the actual argument. Like, I don't want to, like, straw man it from my perspective. Like, I really want to understand, like, how are they, how are they covering this? Is this just like, you know, Christ wouldn't have borders, you know, wouldn't believe in borders, wouldn't like, we're all children.

[Jay Dyer]

Like, a lot of the low tier argumentation is that, I mean, if you get into like the Vatican II documents or the Congregation with the Doctrine of the Faith, which is the successor of the Holy Office, if you get into those documents and they'll have a little more sophisticated style of argumentation, but I think they'll just say something like, well, we all worship the God of Abraham. Right. Vatican II says this in Nostratate 3 and Lumigenium 16. Oh, well, it's all. The God of Abraham has the same, you know, lineage as Jews, Muslims and Christians, therefore generic theism.

[Gerald]

But that's such a giant leap.

[Jay Dyer]

The New Testament is very explicit that if you don't have the Son, you don't have the Father. And here's another mistake that I noticed having all these debates with the Catholics on this topic, not just Tim Gordon, but others the last two years. They're also making a leap from worship to mental recognition. So in other words, a Muslim might think I am intending to refer to the God of Abraham.

[Gerald]

Right.

[Jay Dyer]

Mentally. But the problem is that Vatican II says they worship the same God as us in the Christian Church. Now, for us, as Orthodox, we can't really divorce worship from what we do on Sundays in the liturgy. Right. That's worship. It's not just mental recognition of a thing that I'm linguistically referring to. And if Vatican II had said Muslims intend to refer to the God of Abraham, maybe they could get away with it. But that's not what they say. They say they love and worship the God of Abraham just like we do. So there's an equivalence language there. And that's what I kept hammering home to Tim Gordon on the temple debate was that it's an equivalence language. It's capital G God. It's not a lower G God. Yeah, it's intending to say that we worship the same God and it's worship. That's not the same thing as notional mental recognition. That's, I think, a kill shot. Because they don't worship God.

[Gerald]

No. And it. The gods that are described, I mean, obviously the Christian God, Yahweh, like, the attributes are the same, Right? To a degree. Right. Minus Jesus, minus the triune.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, that's a problem.

[Gerald]

But that's a big problem. I mean, if you're just looking at the attributes of God, if you want to say, like, let's just focus on God and not worry about the trinitarian aspect of it, you can't do that for Christians. I understand, but the attributes of Allah are not the same even at a fundamental level. They wouldn't even line up. And you would at least just be left with the Christian God and the Jewish God to kind of contend with.

[Jay Dyer]

For example, Allah is not in time and space.

[Gerald]

No. And he's also very capricious. Like any lies on the whims of the day, if you happen to. That's why jihad is such a popular way to go, because it's the only guarantee of actual making it into paradise. I think it's called paradise. I can't remember if it's heaven or paradise.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, yeah.

[Gerald]

And, and the. That makes it much more clear for people. Christians have a very hard time understanding why somebody would die in battle for God like that by blowing themselves up in a terrorist attack. Like, well, if you understand their theology, it makes it much clearer. Like if that was like, as Christians, if we believe the only way to like, fully. Like, if we fully believed in God in heaven and hell and like woo hell real bad. Not like bad like you do everything that you can to avoid hell. Everything. Like, and you give everything that you have, every ounce of energy and it could take like chopping off your own arm. You do it right. If we believed in it like that, then the only obvious answer would be to die in jihad, because that's a guarantee. Otherwise it's like, well, I hope that I kept the pillars of Islam and I did all the things I'm supposed to do. And also that God is in a good mood that day.

[Jay Dyer]

Now this is a great. Actually, I forgot about this point too. In Western theology, they call this theological voluntarism, which is that God's actions are not really dictated by his nature. His actions are arbitrarily willed. So God, for example, there was a debate in the Middle Ages, could God take the Virgin Mary out of heaven and damn her if he willed to? And the reason they had this debate was whether God's actions are dictated by his nature. And so, for example, if his nature is holy and good, well, he can't lie and go against his word. Right. So the answer would be no, but because Islam is very similar to say, a very strict Calvinist type of perspective. They would actually identify the divine nature and the divine will. So God could will to be other if he will. If he wanted to just damn all the saints the next day, he could. That's voluntarism. And that is Islam. Islam is absolutely 100%. I mean they're even what's called occasionalists. They think that at every second, Sunni Islam, at every second Allah is destroying and recreating the world. And that's because they don't believe in secondary causes. So you're not actually a being that's willing to do this or that if you were to allow secondary causes. The Muslims argued this would detract from Allah's sovereignty. How could there be a created cause? Thus Allah is the direct cause of every single event at every second. Everything so good and evil. And even towards the end of the Quran there's actual surah which says God is directly wills good and evil. And they don't just mean providence, they mean directly causing evil. That's why he is also the greatest of deceivers.

[Gerald]

Geez, I guess you get to play both sides there. That seems like a very, like very good strategy for Satan to employ.

[Jay Dyer]

Exactly. Well, isn't it interesting that if all is the greatest of deceivers, it seems like maybe the God of Islam is something Jesus talked about. Right.

[Gerald]

Like he said, I mean, maybe the

[Jay Dyer]

thief comes to steal, kill and destroy. He was a liar from the beginning a little bit.

[Gerald]

So have you. I'm assuming that you've studied eschatology from all three to a degree of areas. Yeah. So I came up with a Protestant premillennial ish, kind of the. And I hold it very loosely because I also believe that there's a lot of room for debate, a lot of room for error, and ultimately it does not affect, I don't think like how I am to live my life. I think there's, you know, what Christ is commanding me to do in my life. That's what really dictates how I'm supposed to live my life. We don't spend a lot of time going because the world is going to end, therefore you must. It's because Christ said to do this. Here's how he modeled it, here's what we're supposed to do. But it's interesting and a lot of people get into the weeds of eschatology. Eschatology is the study of the end times or talking about the end times kind of wrapping up all of history. And so pre Millennial means, like I believe that we are prior to a literal thousand year millennial kingdom. However you want to debate how that happens, when that happens, just know that that's roughly where I come from. But I could be swayed. I compared it to Islam and Islamic eschatology and it's been a while. I have to brush this off. But I think back in like 2009, I taught a specific class on this and it's been so long that I don't want to mess it up. But what I saw was the exact inverse.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah.

[Gerald]

So if you laid out the characters in Christian eschatology, they would be like represented in Islamic eschatology, but in Christian eschatology, they're described and given like, you know, either either power or descriptors that kind of tell you who they are, what they do, how they act. And when you looked at Islam, it was the exact opposite. What was described as good here was actually described as bad here. Like it completely inverted the good and evil portion of it. So going back to your point, like their Allah has a lot of the attributes of Satan. Exactly right. It's like, that's scary. And this is, I think the false prophet in Christianity, when it talks about the false prophet, had a lot of overlap with their prophet. Right. With Muhammad. And so it's like these, these descriptors. It was very eye opening for me. I have to brush that off and see, I don't, I don't know how deep I got into that, but man, it's really interesting because I, I'm baffled by this. But I also see that Islam has been trying to subvert, conquer, whatever you want to call it, the west for a very long time. They've been doing it through birth rates in different places. They've been doing it through migration and other places and then getting going. And in this case, it seems like they're infiltrating. I don't even think it's like infiltration of the Vatican, but it's like the Vatican seems to be playing right along with it in a lot of ways, based on what you've just talked about and what we're seeing. But then trying to, trying to pit Americans who are Christians against Israel, so much so that they side with Islam is just the creepiest, weirdest thing that I've seen lately. And it all does come down to me that Jews bad, so therefore Islam might be good. How do we defend against that? How do we help people get past the Jews bad part? I mean, because you can have that conversation and I think There's a lot of conversation to have there, like, on how to deal with what we're. We're seeing Israel do and influence in politics in the United States. And you can have all those arguments, but how do you get past that and go, hey, guys, like, Islam really does want this. They. They want you focused on Jews bad so that you think they're good because their goals haven't changed.

[Jay Dyer]

One thing that happens, and I think you alluded to this earlier, is that people that are saved 40, 45 and under, they think, well, if Boomer News is saying something, it's not true. Right.

[Gerald]

And I remember, and I understand why.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, I get it. Because there's a lot of lies.

[Gerald]

A lot of lies and code really popped the lid off of all that for people that even if at that point you weren't like, oh, they're lying to me. Covid came around. You're like, maybe they were the whole.

[Jay Dyer]

Exactly.

[Gerald]

Maybe it's true. Maybe Alex Jones is freaking right? Dead gum it.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, in the 2000s, I remember, like, Like, I came to be convinced that I didn't agree with the sort of normie, you know, Fox News style of stuff. I mean, I was never liberal, but I just didn't believe the Obama years

[Gerald]

did it for me because there were so many lies told about Obama. And I was like, he's bad enough without having to lie about xyz.

[Jay Dyer]

What do we do? Yeah. So I think that the natural result would then to say, well, then maybe what they're saying about all these groups is just not true. And I don't know if I believe that. But. But because Americans are not typically well educated, they're not taught this kind of stuff. I had to go to, like, several years into college before I had a History of Islam class.

[Gerald]

I never had anything about it.

[Jay Dyer]

I was never went to Notre Dame.

[Gerald]

I mean, you think the world religions class is probably something that you'll take and Catholicism sitting right there at the top. Here you go. Nothing.

[Jay Dyer]

So I didn't know anything about it. In fact, I didn't know anything about the real meat and history of Islam and the Quran until starting to debate Muslims in 2017. So that actually got me looking into it. And I was again, like, you're saying, being basically a millennial, like, okay, yeah, probably everything the news has told me about Islam and Fox News is false. But then you realize, no, actually a lot of this is not false. Like, a lot of what they actually teach is crazy. It's an insane cult. And by the way, you were Talking about the motivations to create a suicide bomber, this or that. Well, they're also basically a bunch of 80 IQ people, too. And I don't mean to be mean.

[Gerald]

Cousin marriage will do that to you. Okay. Do that for generations. Now, I get it. You think keeping all the money in the family is a great idea, but you got kids that are retarded. So, I mean, functionally. Did I say that nicely enough? Sorry, retarded.

[Jay Dyer]

I don't mean to bring up past beefs, but I wanted to think. Wasn't there like a. Didn't Crowder go on Rogan and have. Or was it McKenna, Gavin McInnes or somebody went on Rogue and this argument,

[Gerald]

I don't know if years ago did.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, maybe it was Gavin.

[Gerald]

He may have. I. So I, I didn't like at that time I was on the show, but I was very kind of, okay, tangentially related.

[Jay Dyer]

Maybe it was Gavin. And they were arguing, this is like 2016, 17. And Gavin was saying, oh, you know that like, all the Muslim countries are like 80 IQ and yeah, whatever.

[Gerald]

So Somalians are like, we're that high. We just covered that recently. So, so, and I'm sorry, it's just facts. I'm just saying, like, hey, this could be better if it weren't that case. But it is the case, so make

[Jay Dyer]

good of the oil. So, I mean, and you might disagree with me on this point, but I, I, There are in the Orthodox Jewish tradition, there's a lot of. They do dislike Christianity quite a bit.

[Gerald]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

And I think many of them will say, like, they don't care because Islam is the broom of Judaism. They will say that.

[Gerald]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

It's not my term. No, no.

[Gerald]

Well, I mean, but that doesn't strain, like, my understanding of Judaism. I don't look at Judaism and go, well, Judaism loves us. They believe that our God is a false God.

[Jay Dyer]

Right.

[Gerald]

Name me another religion that I would look at and say, well, they think my God is a false God, but they're my best friends. Like, why would that be the case? It's not, it's obviously not the case. I think there's this tie to it because of, you know, we're supposed to pray for the peace of Jerusalem and we're supposed to make them jealous of the faith that we have so that as the prodigal son, essentially they will return back the firstborn, natural born child. I'm an adopted child, of course. God in my mind, still has a plan for Israel. It's not separate from the plan of salvation for Anybody else. But it is a somehow special plan. It's not like people make this argument that the Jews will be saved in some special way, meaning they won't have to come through Christ. I'm like, well, no, that's not. It's like when my people who are called by my name, humble them themselves and call for me, then I will return and heal their land. Like, they will see the one they have pierced. It's very clear that Jews have to accept Christ as the promised Messiah to be reconciled. There's no debate about that.

[Jay Dyer]

And that's the Orthodox Church fathers all teach the same thing, right? Cyril of Alexandria, they say there will be a point. We don't know when. But in the future, when they do convert to Christ, not some other thing. But yeah.

[Gerald]

And Christians don't convert to some new thing with them, like it's.

[Jay Dyer]

It's long or something.

[Gerald]

Exactly. And just. It frustrates me because I'm like, ah, we're grafted in, guys. Do you understand what that means? It's not like there's going to be a new vine. Like we are grafted into the vine. They will have to come back to the vine to be able to be saved. But it doesn't mean that as a Christian, I assume that the Jewish people are for me because of my Christianity. In fact, I would assume that they're not necessarily like, we may be totally cordial and fine with one another. Like, you know, you would have relationship with people that are different beliefs. But I don't believe that their religion looks at mine and goes, oh, best friends.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, actually if you look at 1st, 2nd and 3rd century Christianity and Judaism, and this is what nowadays Jewish scholars will tend to even sort of flesh out and admit. And this is very important for apologetics with Muslims because I had to read Schaefer, Sommer, Boyarin, Francis Schaefer. No, no, I forget the guy's name, but Benjamin Sommer. There's a guy named Schaefer and there's a guy named Daniel Boyarin. These are modern Jewish scholars who have done a lot of work in 1st, 2nd, 3rd century relationship between Christians and Jews. Siegel's another one with the two powers in heaven. So the reason this matters is that it shows that Judaism of the first, second, third century still had a place for the idea that there was multiple powers in heaven. This is important for, for trinitarian theology. So you have modern Jewish scholars admitting this. And the reason this is relevant for apologetics is if you're debating a Muslim, first thing they're going to say, if you're debating the Trinity is the Old Testament, that is Trinity. And then if you can show that. Well, now, wait a minute. Actually, even first, second, third century Judaism still allowed for multiplicity in God in heaven. And this is not from Christian scholars. From Jewish scholars, then you're beginning to. Oh, so wait a minute. So actually there's a lot more.

[Gerald]

Maybe there was that tradition.

[Jay Dyer]

Exactly. So what happens is, according to even these guys, Rabbinic Judaism solidifies its position in those centuries in opposition to the minim, which is the Christians. Yeah, they call them the minim. And the codification of the Talmud, the Babylonian and the Jerusalem Talmuds in those 4th, 5th, 6th centuries is partly in sort of opposition to debates within Hebrew Jewish community relations. So that rabbinic tradition at that period solidifies itself in opposition to Christianity. But even in those early centuries, there was still flexibility or what Somer calls fluidity about the nature of God, whether he was more than just one and perhaps three.

[Gerald]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

Thus the Trinity. So that's very important for debating the Muslims.

[Gerald]

So just, you know, again, just to make the point, first martyr Stephen, he was a. What was he? A Christian.

[Jay Dyer]

The Deacon Stephen.

[Gerald]

Stephen. The first martyr.

[Jay Dyer]

Yes.

[Gerald]

Who killed him? Christians.

[Jay Dyer]

The Jews killed Stephen.

[Gerald]

There we go. This is from the very beginning, of course, Jews and Christians. We were basically to them, a cult, taking Jews away from the proper understanding of how to worship God. I don't assume, going back to the point we made a minute ago, and maybe this is not an epiphany moment, but like a turning point moment in how I argue this is like, no, of course I don't assume that Judaism is going to love Christianity. Like you said, Islam is the broom of Judaism. Like, it's like, of course we are going to be at some odds, but that doesn't change. That's the same thing with anybody that I feel is unsaved. They're going to be against my cause. They're not just neutral. They may be slightly against it and maybe not paying much attention to it and going about life, or they may be actively involved in trying to subvert Christianity. But that's just the game.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, here's an argument. Yeah, here's an argument, Gerald, that I think is. Okay, so let's say. So we know that Judaism from the beginning does not like Christianity.

[Gerald]

Right. But it's very obvious.

[Jay Dyer]

But Islam presents itself as a friend and it's not. So you could argue that that's actually worse because it gives the impression that for sure, when they have a.

[Gerald]

It's much more subversive.

[Jay Dyer]

Exactly.

[Gerald]

It's very subversive. And I think that's why I have looked at Islam and said, no, that is is the threat that we face as a culture on a religious, on a religious level, like to. It's a different degree than just being a liberal.

[Jay Dyer]

It's a civilizational.

[Gerald]

Yes.

[Jay Dyer]

Threat. And that's why even the neocons and the daddy of the neocons, Bernard Lewis, Samuel P. Huntington, in their assessments, they said the future clash of civilizations is the west and Islam.

[Gerald]

Exactly.

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[Gerald]

So when people now when we're talking about Israel and we're talking about, you know, everything that's going on and say, oh, well, of course these guys are going to go back to Islam being this enemy of the people over here. It's like, it's not new. This isn't cover. We're not saying there's aliens so that you divert us from the Epstein files. You know, that's not what this is. So anyway, that, that was something that kind of frustrated me and it caught my eye because it's something that I haven't seen and I certainly didn't expect to see it this close to 9 11. I know that's, you know, 25 years plus ago right now. I think the 25th anniversary is actually later this year. Sorry. So almost 25 years ago. I didn't imagine one that we would see, you know, Zoramdani become mayor of New York City. But I didn't Imagine that all of a sudden people would start peddling this kind of thinking about Islam. It's like, listen, you may. Maybe it got overplayed. Maybe the response was wrong. Maybe the forever wars idea and how we dealt with this, that was wrong. And maybe we created more problems we had originally. Fine. It doesn't mean that that root problem wasn't there and wasn't there. Historically. It was. It still is. It's something we have to be focused on. It's not a distraction. So anyway, I. I just. I hope we don't see a lot more of that, but I do think more debate is going to be needed on that front, because right now. And I don't want to pigeonhole you into one category or another, so if I say something you disagree with, feel free to disagree with me. I think it's incredibly counterproductive to run to the extremes on Juice Bad. Not even to the, like, the violent extremes. I mean, like, they're in control of everything. The president is a traitor to the United States. I think it's really bad to run there because you get to a place where all that you see is that you have blinders on to all of these other good things that the administration has done. The obvious limits on his power, the obvious, you know, saying they don't know what the f. They're doing. Talking about Israel and talking about Iran when we had the 12 day war, the obvious pushback areas, and also giving him opportunity to end the conflict now and pull out of that and say, like, hey, nobody's going to keep us where we don't want to be. Regime change was not a parting. The speech that he gave recently, he said, regime change was not a part of our plan. So there are debatable issues. And when people get outside of those debatable issues and run to the extremes of either always supporting the president, no matter what he does, I think that's equally bad or completely against the president. It's because the Jews control him. It takes, I think, our eye off the ball quite a bit, because then it becomes that group of people that go, islam's not a problem. The Jews are the problem. They just want you to think Islam is the problem. Like they always have.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah. It creates a tunnel vision. Right. I remember when I first got into conspiracy stuff, maybe 2003, at a phase where everything is. It becomes like the lenses that you wear. Right. Where you see everything through that lens.

[Gerald]

Nothing is as it seems.

[Jay Dyer]

Exactly. And then I think as you get older and hopefully you get a little more mature, you realize that, you know, reality's nuance. There's a lot more going on than, than one group running everything, and they're all the source of all evil. It's just not reality.

[Gerald]

There could be a lot of influence, though.

[Jay Dyer]

Exactly.

[Gerald]

New influence that we want to make sure it gets taken care of and rooted out.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah. But I think, yeah, like, you know, on the issue of Trump, for example, hopefully everybody who is an adult, you would think that we get to the point where we're more focused on issues than just teams in the person. You know, I've always been able to just say, I like when Trump does this. This I disagree with this and this I disagreed with warp speed. I disagreed with, you know, what we're doing right now in foreign terms of foreign policy. I disagree with it. But I don't think that that makes everything bad.

[Gerald]

Make him a traitor

[Jay Dyer]

again, I think,

[Gerald]

I mean, and I mean, is it, does it make him a traitor to the United States so that we should arrest him and try him and hang him? That's what you do with traders.

[Jay Dyer]

Traders. Yeah. That's obviously, that's like a punishable offense. Yeah. With, you know, I mean, if you

[Gerald]

get a specific level of, you know.

[Jay Dyer]

No, I, again, like, I never expected that, that he would be able to do everything that he promised in his campaign speech, because no president has done everything they promised in their campaign speech unless it's like, doing the opposite, like Obama or something like that. So, I mean, I just didn't. I'm not blackpilled, but I also recognize that there are powers, I think, above the presidency or above senators that have a huge amount of influence. And I don't just mean Israel. I mean, I think we have power blocks that run the West. And I think, for example, the Epstein files are a window into that.

[Gerald]

We're going to get to that actually

[Jay Dyer]

in just a second. And I think so I don't like what Trump thought he could actually do versus what he was able to do. I don't know the motives. I don't know what he was really thinking. I definitely agreed with most of what he campaigned on. And so if he does, you know, this thing, this thing that I disagree with, then I've always just been an issues person.

[Gerald]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

That's not a way to, like, skirt the issues. But again, like, so if he did something that was treason, there would have to be a court, there would have to be trials.

[Gerald]

So, and I, I don't ask this to, to put you on the spot.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah.

[Gerald]

But Dave Smith, when he Bombed Iran. Dave Smith, this time around, I know you have to delineate which time is it Soleimani? Is it the 12 Day War? When he bombed Iran? This time around, Dave Smith tweeted out that President Trump was a traitor. Now, he could just be saying that kind of loosely rhetoric, but he was on this show saying that every president other than George Washington was a war criminal.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, yeah, it would seem to be.

[Gerald]

So for him, it seems like it does reach a higher threshold of legality for him. Would you, in your disagreements with Trump, does it rise to that level?

[Jay Dyer]

That's a tough question.

[Gerald]

It is a tough question I'm putting

[Jay Dyer]

because I don't know the. I don't have a problem with people rhetorically saying that kind of stuff. But in terms of legality, I don't know the law well enough to know if that would meet that threshold because it would actually make like, I mean, Clinton, Nixon bombed Serbia.

[Gerald]

Right.

[Jay Dyer]

I think that was bad, evil action. But that would, But I mean, most of the presidents don't go to Congress for war. They just do it.

[Gerald]

Right. So you say that what he's doing is perfectly legal. Maybe it's not in the best interest of America. Would that be your point? Like, I don't think this is in the best interest of America.

[Jay Dyer]

Even if it was technically legal, I don't think it was the right decision.

[Gerald]

Okay.

[Jay Dyer]

And I think most going to Iran.

[Gerald]

Is Iran the biggest issue or is the Epstein handling the biggest issue to you? I know there's a very big. For both of us, but

[Jay Dyer]

I would actually argue probably the Federal Reserve is the biggest issue.

[Gerald]

Okay.

[Jay Dyer]

In America. So. And I don't. That doesn't mean that I think Epstein is low. Like.

[Gerald]

No, no. You kind of start splitting hairs and they're in kind of different categories.

[Jay Dyer]

So if we're going to talk about the overall health of the west and the country and how to fix things, and Trump's very focused on the economy. And by the way, he's, he's mentioned, you know, the Federal Reserve and the IRS so much. I think those are huge, huge issues that are, you know, we should do,

[Gerald]

we should do an episode on that. We should have you back to talk about the Federal Reserve because if that is one of the biggest issues out there and people really aren't talking about it nearly as much as some of these other issues. Because really the arguments around, you know, whether Trump's doing a good job or a bad job is how did he handle the Epstein files? I mean, on the right.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah.

[Gerald]

Amongst his Supporters or people would have voted for him. How did he handle the Epstein files? Or how is he and is this a good idea to be Iran right now? And those are the two issues that I think most people are talking about. If there's a third or fourth issue, I don't think it's.

[Jay Dyer]

Here's the problem. Everybody's only talking about what's in the news right now.

[Gerald]

Correct.

[Jay Dyer]

Right.

[Gerald]

So we have like goldfish memories here.

[Jay Dyer]

Exactly. Yep. But I think because Trump will leave and we will still have the apparatus, a debt based economy.

[Gerald]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

We're still going to have technocracy moving into place, which I do think is

[Gerald]

an issue even more so we should probably talk about that too.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah. So it's a really tough question when we ask, and I don't fault you for it. I don't fault you for it, but it's a tough question when you say like, well, you know, what's like the main problem issue that we need to tackle? I mean all of these are so huge. But I mean if the Epstein files show, and I think they do that there's a elite criminal organization that runs a lot of the west, has a lot of power. You could argue that that's perhaps even up there with the Federal Reserve. Perhaps even more important than Middle Eastern wars. And I'm not trying to negate Middle Eastern wars. I know they're important, but. Yeah, but, but Middle Eastern wars will come and go. We'll still gonna. The Federal Reserve's not going away.

[Gerald]

No. So not anytime soon.

[Jay Dyer]

Right.

[Gerald]

It would seem. Well, let's take a few minutes and kind of pivot from Islam and we'll keep an eye on this because I think this will be something we have to come back and touch on, unfortunately. And hopefully you get the opportunity to do more debates because I don't want Catholics and orthodox believers out there thinking they have more in common with Islam than they do with what I would call their brothers in Christ. I know there's issues with that, but just for the sake of argument, we should have more in common. Right.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, here's one piece of good news. I don't mean to cut you off,

[Gerald]

but I like the news.

[Jay Dyer]

It's fine. So last the end of last year, there was a huge debate you had Myron on. I was surprised they invited me and Sam Shamoon. I'm not a huge fan of Sam Shamoon, but they invited us on Fresh and Fit to do a huge Muslim versus Christian debate. Yeah, that debate got at least 2 million views across different platforms. Maybe More on Twitter, I don't know. But at least on rumble and on YouTube, a couple million. And then not counting clips. Point being is like, there was a noticeable decline after that debate. I'm not trying to take full credit because there's plenty of other people out there debating Muslims and whatnot, but. And then Andrew did a great cultural confrontation with Daniel Hikikachu about Islamic countries and cousin marriage.

[Gerald]

Right.

[Jay Dyer]

So after these two notable debates, Dawa, which is Islamic online apologetics, they've seen a massive decline.

[Gerald]

Really?

[Jay Dyer]

Now you do have Sneako putting out low tier tweets.

[Gerald]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

Which get a lot of views. But the apologetic sphere has seen a rapid decline of Muslim debates and I think that that's good. So there's a, there's a good sign that they're beginning to have less influence online in apologetics. Unfortunately, they still have a lot of sway with low tier memeing, you know, on, on Twitter. Yeah.

[Gerald]

I mean, I think it's part of the strategy. Yes, you're right. Let's pivot a little bit because I have never considered myself a fan of Pam Bondi. Even when she was nominated. We didn't cover the hearings. We covered other hearings with Robert Kennedy. I think we may have covered Hegseth, but we quickly saw that Pam, I don't know your opinions on this, so I'm just going to lead him with what I think. And if I steer you in any different directions, feel free to correct me, but she didn't seem to understand the First Amendment or Second Amendment very well. She had very bad positions on gun rights. She talked about hate speech with regard to anti Semitism, which that should be a red flag to anybody no matter what your position on Israel is like. If you've got somebody talking about hate speech, it's like, well, that's. We've dealt with that before and we all came to the conclusion over here that you can't do that because nobody can define hate speech and you shouldn't in the first place. There's other arguments for it, but that is one of the best ones. She was let go by President Trump and I'll read to you his True Social that he posted. So Pam Bondi is a great American patriot and a loyal friend who faithfully served as Attorney General over the past year. Pam did a tremendous, over tremendous job. Geez, these are terrible, tremendous job. Overseeing a massive crackdown in crime across our country. With murders plummeting to their lowest level since 1900. He has to go find positive things to say in these. I Understand that we love Pam. Do we? And she will be transitioning, I could have called that to a much needed and important new job in the private sector. Haven't read this yet. She's going to go back to when she came to be announced at a date in the near future. And our deputy attorney general, a very talented, respected legal mind, Todd Blanche will step in and serve as acting ag. Thank you for your attention to this matter. His customary sign off. We've been very critical of her and it wasn't just her positions on free speech and the Second Amendment which were enough for me, it was her handling of the Epstein files. So I know you've talked about this quite a bit. I know that we all, when we voted for President Trump, it was not my number one issue. I don't think it's most Americans number one issue. I don't think polling data shows that. I think online data shows that people that talk about it like it seems to be their top issue. When you're engaging on X, it seems like it's the main thing. But I looked at immigration and closing the border as probably one of the most important things we could do. Otherwise we wouldn't have a country to do any of the other stuff with. You make the case for other things, too. And he did that and I was very happy. But immediately when she went on Fox News and said, they're on my desk and, and tomorrow morning you'll see some stuff. And then it was the binder gate and then it was more Fox News appearances and just it was one of the most incoherent things that I've ever seen. So it leads me to believe either she's incompetent, she had no idea what she actually had on her desk. Maybe, maybe that's true, or she's completely covering up for someone. And so I understand why people fall into those buckets. I thought she was incompetent, but a lot of people were like, it's because President Trump is implicated in the Epstein files and that's why. Which, and tell me if I'm right, I thought was really stupid. Only because the Biden administration had access to these files for four years and never did anything with them in regard to Trump. And they had more motivation than anybody to want to do that. So for my mind, I thought it was stupid. Maybe that's the wrong word to say. More, more. Not really the most likely option. But then when she handled it so poorly, I was like, well, she's got to go like, you've got to get rid of her. So do you think, one, what is your opinion on Pam Bondi and how she's handled the Epstein files so far? Is she really the main villain in that story? Because I think we all look at it as a huge problem that needs to be taken care of and justice needs to be served. And do you think maybe this opens the door for that?

[Jay Dyer]

I hope so. I didn't have high expectations to begin with.

[Gerald]

Overall. For the Epstein files.

[Jay Dyer]

No, no. For her.

[Gerald]

Okay.

[Jay Dyer]

What she would do. So I'm not really surprised at that. I just kind of, you know, I'm not black pill. But I also did just. If something good comes out of government, I'm pleasantly surprised because I have no.

[Gerald]

That's a good place to be.

[Jay Dyer]

I have no expectations. So when something good happens, I'm like,

[Gerald]

yeah, there we go.

[Jay Dyer]

So. But I think I would agree with your assessment. Overall, all, I am very interested in this because I do study this topic quite a bit in terms of compromise, blackmail.

[Gerald]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

How governments work, espionage, that kind of history. So I was really interested to see. I did not think we would get what came out. In fact, I was live streaming at the time on YouTube and I thought, oh, here's this news story popping up. And then I realized, well, these are actually real emails. This is real communications. This is text messages, even audio files. Really surprised that that even came out.

[Gerald]

Was that a pleasant surprise for you? Like, I'm glad this happened.

[Jay Dyer]

Was pleasant.

[Gerald]

Well, I mean, it's, it's an unpleasant topic.

[Jay Dyer]

Ultimately, as somebody kind of melted my mind. I mean, I'm just like, I can't believe this is. And why are they. I don't. Still don't exactly know why it did come out because it seems like they could have not had it come out if they wanted it. But I also, I feel like to the Trump point, I've consistently maintained the position that I've not seen anything that directly implicates Trump in criminal activities.

[Gerald]

Right.

[Jay Dyer]

And you have to be very precise and very explicit in what you're referring to and what's going on. And you can't jump to conclusions. For example, the first day, the only thing that anyone talked about when these started coming out was this ridiculous, this crazy person who included a tip to the FBI that Michael Moore brought me here and I was on a boat and George Bush Senior was humping me in the butt. And by the way, they cut my feet with a center. But it's a special center that doesn't leave any marks. I'm like, that's obviously a crazy person. And. But everyone. That's all they wanted to talk about. Dude. Look, dad, they're on a yacht with Bush and Clinton and they're humping him in the butt. That's all. It's like, that was obviously not real. Okay, so people weren't even like.

[Gerald]

And nobody pump in the butt. Okay, well, I was just. I know you sanitized it. I'm just going to assume that was a verbatim quote.

[Jay Dyer]

There's even crazier stuff in that report. But I'm like, first of all, this guy's being brought by Michael Moore to the FBI. Like, this is obviously a crazy person. But. So they weren't even really. People weren't delineating between what type of thing they were looking at.

[Gerald]

You know, let me just. Can I. Can I just say that I think it went further than that. I think people were specifically not. They were cropping out that said.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah.

[Gerald]

That this source deemed not credible. Exactly.

[Jay Dyer]

Exactly.

[Gerald]

I think it was much more nefarious

[Jay Dyer]

than just a lot of people were doing that.

[Gerald]

Yes. Not taking into account with their. So go ahead. Sorry, I didn't mean.

[Jay Dyer]

No, I mean. So I think it was really important to delineate and distinguish what types of doctrines we're looking at. Right. One of these. There was, for example, to that point, there was a. An informant who had said, I went to the FBI because I knew Epstein and I had two passports and I was trying to get into Vatican City. And absolutely nothing about, like Pope Francis working to expose Epstein. But I saw multiple massive Roman Catholic profiles posting this as if somehow Francis was taking down Epstein. It was the most ludicrous thing millions of years ago.

[Gerald]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

On these. And the report didn't even say that. It was nothing like that. So they were really flooding this. This zone with just insanity and disinformation. But aside from all that, when you see the emails, for example, that, for example, Epstein said in one of the early emails, the first or second day that came out, I'm going to Ukraine. I'll be there a month. And then this is. This is the month before Zelensky came to power. Zelensky says in the text messages, get me every. Jeffrey Epstein. I need to talk to him. He wanted consulting. Right. I think that's very insightful. I think his exchanges with Ariana de Rothschild about what countries we can go in and profit from the chaos, advanced intelligence. Those are very insightful. The Bannon interview was very insightful because he says, I was brought in to be the chairman of the Trilateral commission at age 30. So I was essentially David Rockefeller's legate.

[Gerald]

Those are absolutely what killer abilities at age 30 did this guy have? I mean, we've talked about. Yeah, I've, I've. I'm sorry, we haven't talked about this. I've heard about, you know, where his funding comes from and, you know, really kind of why this does fit this classic. Like, we're funding this guy to go get secrets. We're funding this guy to be connected, to have information on people, to have connections to people. Not just information, just like connections all around the world. And there's no doubt he had that right. And you could say, like, oh, yeah, he, you know, Mossad was definitely, you know, working with him. You could also say that, you know, MI6 or the CIA or the French, whatever it's called there was doing the exact same thing. And I'm like, yeah, that kind of makes sense to me. It seems like that's what this guy was pedaling in, was in information and connections.

[Jay Dyer]

Exactly.

[Gerald]

I think connect people.

[Jay Dyer]

High level sort of criminal consultant. That's what I saw, for example, in the, the discussion that comes out, the audio discussion with him and Ehud Barak, he's basically just saying, this is who Peter Thiel is. We need to try to get him in our sway. And that's a great window into what he's doing. I think he's doing anything, turning it

[Gerald]

all with Palantir, but. Okay, well.

[Jay Dyer]

But he's saying, like any other situations, he's saying to Peter Thiel, hey, I represent the Rothschilds and I would like to meet with you and get you involved in what I do. There was a great, insightful email where he was talking about, even 10 years before we had any Somali migrants coming to the US there's an email where he says, hey, there's going to be a lot of chaos in Somaliland. We can profit from this. The Greek bailouts, we can profit from this. Right. So a lot of it is advanced intelligence on where to put money in terms of put options and stocks. That's a lot of it.

[Gerald]

Where do you think. Oh, sorry. Where do you think it comes from? Where do you think his intelligence came from, if you had to guess?

[Jay Dyer]

You mean his native IQ intelligence or like.

[Gerald]

No, no, no, sorry. So if he had a lot of this advanced intelligence, do you think people, if he was reaching out to people, saying, hey, there's trouble in Somaliland, where do you think he learned that information from? Do you think it's sources within the government basically talking about plans in the future.

[Jay Dyer]

I think he had sources everywhere. Like there was an email the second day that came out that show showed his itinerary. And he was planning to. Before, I think before he got arrested, he was planning to meet with like 15 heads of state across the world. So, I mean, he was super well connected. And, and I don't want to get too conspiratorial for, for perhaps your palette, but I did, I did bring with me the biography of the Rothschilds, which is written by a guy named Morton. It's official biography. And the first chapter, or second chapter, deals with the classic story of advanced intelligence at Waterloo. And so the advanced intelligence allowed them to buy up the London stock market when it crashed. And I thought that's really illustrative because fast forward to now, he's having the same conversations with that family and saying, this intelligence allows us to game the stock market. So that's just one angle. I think he was a weapons trafficker. He was involved with Aden on Khashoggi. He was able to seemingly reach out to Bill Gates and talk about pandemic simulations in 2017. I mean, he had his hands in everything. So I also think, by the way, I don't think he created bitcoin. That was a fake email.

[Gerald]

I remember that.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah. But he did sort of spray money into all types of venues or venture capital or whatever. Even weird sci fi, transhumanist type stuff. Yeah. Because he was basically putting money into anything that might pop off. Right. So I think that's what he was up to. But ultimately, and if you know philosophy, and I've had people that know tech stuff tell me that when you listen to the ban an interview, when he gets into talking about philosophy or AI, he doesn't really know what he's talking about, but he was very good at giving the impression that he was like a savant in every area. So he's kind of a con man too, is going on there. Like he's got the con element, but I think he's at a high level, very skilled at organized crime and consulting and putting together people. And again, like going back to Sammy the Bull or there was another guy who I had dinner with who was involved with the US government at an intelligence level in what's called the Brazilian car wash scandal. And he was involved in prosecuting people in the Brazilian car wash scandal because they had basically used a criminal consultant who had a PhD in crime name to essentially compromise the entire Brazilian government. You can look this up, it's a famous case. But he was amazed when they were sort of diagramming it. You know, like the FBI has these like strings. Like it's like the conspiracy theorists and the FBI have the string in court.

[Gerald]

They're the ones buying the yarn.

[Jay Dyer]

They're the ones buying all the yarn

[Gerald]

on the cork board.

[Jay Dyer]

Right. And he said it was just crazy how intricate this was. And he said there are actually people that are basically like PhD, Blofeld, criminal mastermind.

[Gerald]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

And you know, Sammy the Bull says something very similar about the way they structured things with the Mafia. And I think that Epstein is kind of that he's not the top of the pyramid, so to speak, but he's kind of that kind of a guy who was able to network and organize these types of operations very well.

[Gerald]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

And that's why he was brought in by David Rockefeller to Trilateral to chair it at a very young age. One of the emails that really surprised me to get back to like Vatican stuff was like, like you've got him explaining to Larry Summers, who you would think understands global banking under the Clinton administration. And Epstein is explaining to him how the Vatican bank works. And he's like, this is a secretive bank that's great for money laundering. It's like he's explaining this to right in the Bannon interview. And I don't know if Bannon was playing dumb or what, but like he's explaining to Bannon how fractional reserve banking works. I'm like, I would have thought Ben was aware of that. But yeah, so Epstein was really good at like explaining criminal operations to a

[Gerald]

lot of better than he should have been, one might say. Well, I, I, Let me, let me put like the point on this. I hope whoever is replacing Bondi, I don't want any more PR mess ups. Like I'd like them to clean this up, but I would like to see justice. And I don't absolutely we ever will or that we ever. Honestly, I don't know that we will know what justice would look like. Did you know who to go.

[Jay Dyer]

Did you see those messages like to the professor? Did you, did you have fun torturing and. Oh yeah, we took all those.

[Gerald]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, so it's like, okay, we have an email to somebody. Like that's not enough evidence to understand case, but it's enough evidence to start going down that line.

[Jay Dyer]

Right.

[Gerald]

And if we knew they were doing that, like if there were some high profile investigations going on right now and there were updates from the FBI to that effect, I think a lot of people would say, say thank God.

[Jay Dyer]

Right.

[Gerald]

All right. You're heading in the right direction. Good. And so if they do that with whoever comes in next after Bondi, I think that would be great. But we, I think for our faith to be restored in the system, that there is something beyond this power structure. We have to see that. And not like a patsy or two, you know, like when, when the Wall street crashed, it's famously like, yeah, the 2008 bust, they basically, you know, got one guy and they're like, no, they didn't arrest anybody. They arrested this one guy over here. Didn't really have any one trade. Yeah, that went real bad.

[Jay Dyer]

Have you heard of the Dutroux affair? It kind of reminds me of that. That's a famous case where in Belgium, basically a lot of the political establishment and religious establishment were implicated in human trafficking, sex crimes. Right. It's kind of similar to Epstein style stuff.

[Gerald]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

And, and, and the procurer, Mark Dutroux, is the one that sort of took the heat. No one else got it. In fact, they even had massive like 1 million people marched in the streets of Belgium back in around.

[Gerald]

But it didn't change anything.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah. So that tends to be kind of a pattern of like the low level people take the heat.

[Gerald]

Yeah, well, we'll see. I'm hopeful that that will be something that's cleaned up because this has definitely been an albatross across his neck. And we also don't want a system of government that protects these kinds of people. And I mean, not just the Epstein's, obviously he's the person taking the heat, it seems for this. It's the people that are behind it, the people that are involved with it, the people that know what's going on and choose to act with this perceived impunity. It seemed like they're above the law. I don't think that's good. But Jay, thank you very much for diving into all three of these. We went a little bit longer today. I feel like we've got. I mean, I've got the Federal Reserve and I've got the technocracy. The coming technocracy with AI AI is a huge topic for me. I've been doing a lot of study on that lately for the last probably six, eight months. And I think there's a number of other conversations we can kind of throw in there. We can dive into more of the Epstein stuff and you know, what the most important things are. But thank you very much for hanging out with us. Tell me again where everybody can find you.

[Jay Dyer]

J. Dyer on YouTube. Jay Dyer on Twitter, Jay's analysis on Instagram, J. Dyer on Rumble.

[Gerald]

What's your website?

[Jay Dyer]

Jayceanalysis.com and my third book on Hollywood is out. S. Turk, Hollywood 3. You can get that in the shop at Jay's analysis.

[Gerald]

Fantastic. Jay, we will have you back. Thank you very much for being with us.

[Jay Dyer]

Pleasure.

[Gerald]

Jay Dyer, everyone. Thanks again to Jay Dyer for being here. And thank you for tuning into this not, you know, skipping around here. There's always some great conversation that we get to have on these apologetics shows that we do. Let us know if there are any other topics that you'd like us to cover, anything you'd like us to dive into. And anytime that that name gets put up there, we will. We'll do our very best. We'll see you next time. Gerald Apologizes, Apologetics it doesn't mean that.