Episode 05: The Brand

Summary

Podcast Summary: Love and Radio - Blood Memory

Episode 05: The Brand
Host: Nick van der Kolk
Date: March 2, 2026

Overview

This episode of "Love and Radio: Blood Memory," hosted by Nick van der Kolk, delves deep into the origins of the Aryan Brotherhood ("the Brand") within the US federal prison system through the first-person account of Mike, a former high-ranking member. The conversation explores the allure and mechanics of prison power structures, the intersection of violence and survival, and the complex code—both real and perceived—underlying gang life behind bars.

The narrative is brought to life with Love and Radio’s signature immersive storytelling and audio design, moving through chapters that dissect the realities of leadership, loyalty, violence, and personal ethics within an infamous crime organization.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Misconceptions and Initiation into the Brand

Mike's Early Perceptions & Recruitment

• Naivety about Roles and Alliances

  • Mike reflects on early prison days, recruited not by white gangs, but approached first by Black Panthers.
    Quote:

    "First and foremost, not the whites, not the Mexicans, but the blacks and Black Panthers tried to recruit me.” (00:36)

• TD Bingham’s Introduction

  • Mike meets TD Bingham, who would become a pivotal figure in the Aryan Brotherhood.
    Quote:

    “TD's not very tall, but he's huge, you know… huge big barrel chest... Yosemite Sam mustache.” (03:10)

  • TD presents the idea of the “Brand” not as a gang, but as a controlling entity—a business, not a racist enterprise.
    Quote:

    “He says, look, you need to understand that the brand isn't about racism... Look at us as members. We live better here than we ever lived on the rez.” (07:08)

2. The Mechanics of Power and Organization

Absolute Control, Resource Management, and Influence

• Absolute Control Is the Draw

  • Control over commodities, jobs, drug trade, prostitution, loans, and even guard write-ups—all centralized by the Brand.
    Quote:

    “They would control the influx of personal packages, then they controlled the drug trade, they controlled prostitution, they controlled loans, they controlled, even write ups.” (07:52)

• Weapons Innovation and Smuggling

  • Mike innovates weapon designs to bypass new metal detectors, employing outsiders—Tribal Thumb, a revolutionary group—for smuggling.
    Quote:

    "I devised a mechanism whereby to sheath metal and that it would go through the metal detectors... I had them smuggle at first just two buck knives into old Folsom." (11:25, 11:54)

3. Violence and Its Calculus

Bombings, Knife Fights, and Deterrence

• Counterattacks and Weaponized Retaliation

  • Mike recounts surviving an inept bomb attack in his cell and crafting a better retaliatory device, framing violence as both survival and deterrent.
    Quote:

    "You see, you say, well, how do you square that? Why would I try? I never consciously thought, well, you know, I don't like violence, but, gee, I wonder if I should do this.” (19:33)
    "If you're suing for peace and your opponent realizes that they're outmatched ... that has value, doesn't it?" (20:22)

• The 'Freebie' and Prison Ethics

  • Despite the opportunity for retributive violence ("freebie"), Mike allows a stuck attacker to live, reflecting a complicated and personal morality.
    Quote:

    "So I said, Ricky, we. You both know what I could do right now, right?... I'm going to push you back inside, and my suggestion to you is to stay inside." (22:46)

4. Ambiguity and Mythology of the Brand

Identity, Image, and Misunderstandings

• Mixed Messages about Racism

  • TD Bingham’s Jewish identity and Mike’s own background disrupt stereotypes about Aryan Brotherhood membership.
    Quote:

    “TD had a star of David tattooed on him. He saw me looking at it ... 'yeah, I'm Jewish and proud of it.'” (05:35)

• Myths versus Reality

  • Mike dismisses official "codes" as juvenile propaganda, underlining a distinction between self-image and external perception.
    Quote:

    “That's propaganda.” (01:35)

5. Leadership, Counterintelligence, and Corruption

How Mike Rose to Power

• Leadership Through Violence and Ingenuity

  • Mike’s reputation and ability to innovate (smuggling, counterintelligence) earn him a leadership role.
    Quote:

    "I was in more knife fights than anybody. It was that and the control of resources." (28:11)

• Counterintelligence Techniques

  • Mike uses misinformation and manipulation to root out informants and gain leverage over corrupt staff.
    Quote:

    "I would give each individual a story, four different stories. And then that information came back to me... I knew that that individual... was a conduit." (29:53)
    "With staff, you have to gain inroads into their personality, their personal life... The troubles he had in Vietnam... feeding that addiction." (30:33)

• Extensive Corruption and Profitable Infrastructure

  • The Brand becomes an enterprise, resembling organized crime syndicates, with estimated millions moving through the prison.
    Quote:

    “So that's why the FBI made that estimation that I'd taken 3.5 million out of the prison that year. I think that was an overestimate, but I didn't argue with it—sounded good.” (32:20)
    “[Brand control] looks like... you control the population... all that.” (31:28)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |------------|--------------------------|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:36 | Mike | "First and foremost, not the whites, not the Mexicans, but the blacks and Black Panthers tried to recruit me." | | 03:10 | Mike | "TD's not very tall, but he's huge... huge big barrel chest... Yosemite Sam mustache." | | 07:08 | Bear (via Mike) | "He says, look, you need to understand that the brand isn't about racism... Look at us as members. We live better here than… the rez."| | 07:52 | Mike | "They would control the influx of personal packages... the drug trade... prostitution... loans... even write ups." | | 11:54 | Mike | "I had them smuggle at first just two buck knives into old Folsom. I retrieved them in the visiting room." | | 19:33 | Mike | "You see, you say, well, how do you square that? Why would I try? I never consciously thought, well… I don't like violence, but, gee, I wonder if I should do this.”| | 20:22 | Mike | "If you're suing for peace and your opponent realizes that they're outmatched... that has value, doesn't it?" | | 22:46 | Mike | "So I said, Ricky, we both know what I could do right now, right? ... I'm going to push you back inside, and my suggestion to you is to stay inside."| | 28:11 | Mike | "I was in more knife fights than anybody. It was that and the control of resources." | | 29:53 | Mike | "I would give each individual a story, four different stories... Then I knew that that individual... was a conduit." | | 32:20 | Mike | "So that's why the FBI made that estimation that I'd taken 3.5 million out of the prison that year. I think that was an overestimate, but I didn't argue with it—sounded good."|

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• TD Bingham’s Introduction: 03:04 – 04:05
• Discussion of the "Brand": 05:11 – 08:54
• Weapons Smuggling and Tribal Thumb: 09:59 – 15:03
• Retaliation and Bomb-making: 16:35 – 20:17
• Confronting Violence and Ethics: 22:46 – 27:25
• Counterintelligence and Corruption: 28:01 – 32:20
• Reflection on Leadership and the Brand's Expansion: 32:24 – 35:02

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Tone & Style

The episode is deceptively calm, with both host and guest giving measured, often deadpan accounts of extraordinary violence and ethical ambivalence. Mike’s language is concise, thoughtful, and sometimes darkly humorous, providing a humanizing, though frequently chilling, perspective on life inside one of America’s most notorious prison gangs.

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Closing Reflection and Look Ahead

Mike admits a conflicted legacy—one in which his skills and leadership allowed the Brand to flourish, but also distanced him from his true self. The episode closes with a preview for the next installment, hinting at the moral limits of the Brand’s violence—specifically, when the idea of assassinating an enemy’s family is proposed.

Next Episode Teaser:

“We knew he was in protective custody and there was essentially no way to get to him. Linky's reasoning was we can't get to him, let's kill his family... Every one of them agreed except me.” (40:26)

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For further details or to listen ad-free, join Love and Radio’s membership at loveandradio.org.

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Transcript

[Commercial Narrator]

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[Interviewer (Nick Van der Kolk)]

Previously on Blood Memory.

[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

The worst thing that you can do to a human being is put him in a cage.

[Interviewer (Nick Van der Kolk)]

What were you naive about?

[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

Everything. First and foremost, not the whites, not the Mexicans, but the blacks and Black Panthers tried to recruit me. He says, all right, young Mike, you know, you're either with us or against us. And what you're telling me is that you're against us. Then TD Bingham approached me. Probably one of the most influential members of the Aryan Brotherhood.

[Interviewer (Nick Van der Kolk)]

I was hoping to get you to react. Let me see if I'll pull it up. This is the Aryan brother code. I could get. I could pull up on my computer if it's.

[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

I got peepers here. I'll just put them on.

[Interviewer (Nick Van der Kolk)]

I'm sure you recognize it.

[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

Anarian brother is without care. He walks where the weak and heartless won't dare. And if by chance he should stumble and lose control, his brothers will be there to help reach his goal. Yeah, I don't recognize it.

[Interviewer (Nick Van der Kolk)]

Oh, really?

[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

Yeah. It's the first time I've seen it. Sounds like something that TD or Mac would write to me. Something like, this is actually adolescent. That's how I would have viewed it back then. Had somebody shown this to me, I would have looked at him and said, man, grow up. That's propaganda.

[Interviewer (Nick Van der Kolk)]

Another quote that I have here, this was from another member. The smell of fresh human blood can be overpowering. But killing is like having sex. The first time is not so rewarding, but it gets better and better with practice, especially when one remembers that it's a holy cause.

[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

Hmm, that sounds pretty psychopathic, doesn't it? You know, blood is quite identifiable by way of scents. I've heard people say iron, but copper is what it smells like to me. There's nothing attractive about it. I've seen a lot of blood and a lot of bloodletting. There's no way to glorify that. Not back then, not now.

[Interviewer (Nick Van der Kolk)]

From love and radio, you're listening to blood memory. I'm nick vander kolk. This is episode five, the brand. So TD Approaches you. Take me back so you're on the yard, he walks up to you?

[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (Nick Van der Kolk)]

Had you met him before?

[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

No.

[Interviewer (Nick Van der Kolk)]

Okay, so he introduced himself and what did he look like?

[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

TD's not very tall, but he's huge, you know. His current name, I understand, is the Hulk. And I can see where he would like that huge big barrel chest and just a few wisps of hair on the top. And then he had that wrap around. But he had this huge Yosemite Sam mustache. I used to kid him, I said, you're as wide as you are tall, you know. He had this habit of taking his fists and putting them on his hips, spreading his legs, that Superman stance. I guess that's how he would stand and talk. He had tattoos, both arms and on his chest. Very straightforward, very matter of fact, very confident, extremely intelligent. Oftentimes when you meet people, there's just a connection. I recognized him for who he was. He was a warrior.

[Interviewer (Nick Van der Kolk)]

Chapter 1 TD Bingham.

[Narrator/Documentary Voice]

Bingham hardly looked like a prison super thug. Dressed in a new button down shirt and slacks and wearing wire rimmed glasses, he had a navuncular appearance. He often stroked his walrus mustache, traded jokes with one of his attorneys and nodded politely when introduced to a prospective juror across the courtroom. Old only the bulk beneath his shirt hinted at Bingham's history as one of the most feared men in the US federal prison system.

[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

He had a twist of chewing tobacco and he bit off a piece and handed it to me. And I bit off a piece and worked it for a minute and enjoyed it. He did most of the talking. He told me that he called the truce between the blacks and myself. And I told him, that's fine, but I'm not finished with what I'm doing. And he laughed, had a genuine good laugh. He complimented me on my style of fighting and told me that he believed I was brand material and would like me to join him.

[Narrator/Documentary Voice]

The Brotherhood is characterized by its fearlessness in its violence, at times killing in full view of other inmates and guards, often tattooed with shamrocks or Nazi emblems. Members rarely called themselves the Aryan Brotherhood, referring to themselves instead as the Rock, the tip, or the brand.

[Interviewer (Nick Van der Kolk)]

At the time, what was your understanding of the Aryan Brotherhood?

[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

I had a general assumption that they were a bunch of racists and dope fiends. That's about the extent of it. And that was just based on collateral input from others. When they talked about the ability, talked about them in fearful tones, I knew that they were violent, but I didn't understand actually what they did. I just thought they were an Organization a gang. And you know, of course you hear Aryan Brotherhood and you automatically think Nazi TD had a star of David tattooed on him. He saw me looking at it and I just had the impression that was a common quarry, even unspoken. And so he said, you know, yeah, I'm Jewish and proud of it. I said, okay. But it was confusing, especially with my preconceived notions about who they were. So I just put my hand up and I said, I appreciate you getting at me, but I'm not a racist. I'm not a dope finish. Ah, that's not what we're about. He told me, you misunderstand. And I wasn't interested in an explanation about what I misunderstand. I declined, not knowing that that was unheard of. People were standing in line, just trying to get in. He told me that that was fine, but, you know, they still had my back. Not too long after, I had a subsequent meeting with four natives that were ab.

[Interviewer (Nick Van der Kolk)]

And what did they say?

[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

Bear did most of talking. His name was appropriate. He was very much. Bear, like, you know, told me. He said, look, you need to understand that the brand isn't about racism or what people normally think. He says, look at us as members. We live better here than we ever lived on the rez. They knew that I was native and that I had lived on the rez. It's what they refer to as a rez dog. That piqued my curiosity. And I said, well, what do you mean? So he started to break it down. How they controlled the job assignments, how they controlled the kitchens and the warehouses and the. The movement of commodities back and forth. And of course, pilfering those commodities toward making pruno, which was turned into whiskey.

[Interviewer (Nick Van der Kolk)]

What about it specifically appealed to you?

[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

Control. There's no question about that. No matter where you're at in the prison system is that control is of utmost importance. It can be by degree or it can be absolutely. And here they were talking about essentially absolute control of everything. They would control the influx of personal packages, then they controlled the drug trade, they controlled prostitution, they controlled loans, they controlled, even write ups. So if a guard gave somebody a write up, they could get that squashed. They had a license plate factory there. So the, you know, jobs in PIA had a pay number, so they controlled that and who was placed there. So at any rate, I accepted their invitation. And it was actually based on that discussion that I joined.

[Interviewer (Nick Van der Kolk)]

What did being a member involve at this point? Like, what kind of activities were you doing at that time?

[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

You know, I could do whatever I wanted to do. While some members were more influential, like td, all members were considered equal. So if somebody wanted to go do something, they went and did it. They didn't need permission. I like that they're making a lot of money. A lot of money. It was kind of shocking. But problem was is that they were all dope fiends. So it was all going into their arms. And that just did not make any sense to me. But I started looking, looking into the resource base and how that could be used to essentially create a business. One of the first things I ventured into was weapons. Given my experience, particularly at Folsom, I was constantly engaged in combat. I mean, in the course of my first year, I had something like 20 disciplinaries for fighting, you know, knife fights. They just introduced metal detectors to Folsom. The walkthrough kind, like you see at airports. The technology there is pretty fundamental. It's just simple physics. I reasoned that if I took a buck knife and I created a sheath for it, which I did, made essentially out of a polymer, a plastic that I encased it in that and then I wrapped that in all electrical tape. I first started with a specific weave. I went end over end, then I went left, and then I went right, and then I went end over end this way. And then I cut that in half and then slid the knife in, put the cap on it so that it went over the other cap, insulated it. So then I needed somebody to help me bring weapons in from the outside. Some of the guys had been dealing with this, what they called. They were called Tribal Thumb.

[Interviewer (Nick Van der Kolk)]

Chapter two. Tribal Thumb.

[Narrator/Documentary Voice]

The Tribal Thumb was one of a number of terrorist groups that inhabited the San Francisco Bay area at this time, the most famous of which is probably the Symbionese Liberation army that kidnapped Patty Hearst. The assistant District attorney for San Francisco described the Tribal Thumb as a Maoist revolutionary group that believed in violence now and were once accused of shooting down a police helicopter in Oakland in 1973.

[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

I guess you'd have to say they were kind of revolutionary.

[Interviewer (Nick Van der Kolk)]

Yeah, that's not chaining yourself to a tree.

[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

No, no. That's not a tree hugger. They reminded me of just hippies. They wanted to start and build a commune. So I discussed with them the idea that I had devised a mechanism whereby to sheath metal and that it would go through the metal detectors. I believed, of course, I had to explain that to the girls. To have them do it and then purchase a buck knife. I told them 444 stainless steel.

[Interviewer (Nick Van der Kolk)]

What was in it for them. Like why were they agreeing to help you with this?

[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

They were looking for, actually they were looking for leadership. And that's oftentimes the case in situations like this. They were more interested in who I was and what my mindset was, you know, relative to nature. The idea of me being native appealed to him because of the nature based philosophy associated with it. Of course I advocated matriarchy as opposed to patriarchy. And that appealed to him. Of course. I had them construct these. She's purchase stainless steel knives that were folding. So you fold them and then you put them in this sheath. And then you have to secrete them in a body cavity. San Francisco airport had just installed metal detection. So I had him secrete them vaginally and walk through the metal detectors in San Francisco to test them. Yeah, and it worked. I had them smuggle at first just two buck knives into old Folsom. I retrieved them in the visiting room. Two gals with the organization brought them in to me. I was doing any and everything I could to facilitate. Really what comes down to is an armory. I had zip guns made. I had 22 shells smuggled in that could fit the zip guns. I mean, you want to remember the opposition here. Their attorneys are smuggling guns in for them. They're taking over the adjustment center. They're cutting the throats of not only guards, but what, white inmates. So that's what you're up against.

[Interviewer (Nick Van der Kolk)]

And this is specifically the Black Gorilla

[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

family, or Black Gorilla Family and Black Panthers both. They didn't have cell phones back then, but I brought CB radios in and put them in all the units so that while I was in the hole, I could communicate with everybody in the prison via CB radio. That was to advance the activities of the organization, which were violent. That just is what made sense to me. If you have a battle between a knife and a gun, we already know who's going to win. You see, the opposition was smuggling in gunpowder and making bombs. If you've ever had a bomb thrown into your cell, it's pretty devastating. It'll blow everything off the walls, including the toilet and sink. They're all destroyed. And if you manage to survive it, more power to you. Back then they had eight track tapes and it slips into a slot just like cassettes used to, but just like a CD does now. But it's paper thin. So I had matches and then had matches scraped. I took that sulfur and loaded it into one of those eight track cartridges. I set it within the tape itself so that when you plugged in the eight track and you turned it on and that tape moved. It triggered, just like striking a match. And so the eight track player became a bomb and it exploded. And the shrapnel from that could be very damaging.

[Interviewer (Nick Van der Kolk)]

And how did that work with the eight track bombs? I mean, were they used?

[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

Yeah, I did use them, yeah, one time only because it had been used against me.

[Interviewer (Nick Van der Kolk)]

What was that situation?

[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

Oh, I just. It was Yogi again. Trying to get back

[Podcast Announcer]

Love and Radio

[Interviewer (Nick Van der Kolk)]

will return after these messages.

[Podcast Announcer]

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[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

You're not the predator, you're the prey. Prey. Pray, pray, pray, pray, pray, pray.

[Podcast Announcer]

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[Commercial Narrator]

Many have come here.

[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

None have survived.

[Podcast Announcer]

Predator Badlands now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney. Rated PG 13.

[Carvana Advertiser]

Reggie, I just sold my car online.

[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

Let's go, grandpa. Wait, you did?

[Carvana Advertiser]

Yep, on Carvana. Just put in the license plate, answered a few questions, got an offer in minutes. Easier than setting up that new digital picture frame.

[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

You don't say.

[Carvana Advertiser]

Yeah, they're even picking it up tomorrow. Talk about fast.

[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

Wow. Way to go. So, about that picture frame.

[Carvana Advertiser]

Ah, forget about it. Until Carvana makes one, I'm not interested.

[Commercial Narrator]

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[Interviewer (Nick Van der Kolk)]

Chapter three.

[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

Yogi, the front of your cell is faced with bars, so you know there's no closures or anything else. And you can slide anything under the bars. And of course, you can't walk by the cell because everybody's under escort. You slingshot the bomb into the cell. It's pretty loud.

[Interviewer (Nick Van der Kolk)]

You were asleep at the time?

[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (Nick Van der Kolk)]

And the explosion woke you up, I assume?

[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (Nick Van der Kolk)]

I mean, did you immediately know what it was? You look around like, take me through sort of what?

[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

Yeah, it's. It's hard to describe to you. I mean, it's no big thing. You've got a bomb that comes into your cell, explodes, you've got debris and you've got no big thing.

[Interviewer (Nick Van der Kolk)]

Just a bomb comes into your cell.

[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

Yeah, Yeah, I didn't check to see if I was hurt. I didn't feel any pain. I mean, my ears echoed. And you've got small and alarms going off because of course, staff have heard it. Staff running down the tier. And what you're trying to do is clean everything up before they get there so they can't see it.

[Interviewer (Nick Van der Kolk)]

Oh, you're trying to clean up his bomb?

[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

Yes.

[Interviewer (Nick Van der Kolk)]

Why?

[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

Because you don't want staff to know that somebody tried to bomb you. You see that's that you want to keep that on the qt. It ups security and everything else. And so, you know, when staff come running in, you're sitting there, you know, what, what, what's going on? We know a bomb went off in here, but you don't, you don't give that up. I don't want this to sound wrong, but it was more comical than anything because it was a bad bomb. It was a terrible bomb. This thing goes off and, you know, you get up and you say, okay, that's it, you know, that's the best you can do. So to me, it was, you know,

[Interviewer (Nick Van der Kolk)]

kind of funny, was a piece of it as well. If the guards had known that you had been attacked, then you would not be able to retaliate. Retaliate?

[Podcast Announcer]

Yeah.

[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

No, not necessarily. That wouldn't stop anything, and they would have known that. It was more along the lines of, you know, it was a bonehead move. But even though it was a bonehead move, you don't allow staff to be involved in it. It's between whoever's trying to bomb me and me.

[Interviewer (Nick Van der Kolk)]

Tell me about the decision to retaliate. Was that ever a question?

[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

No, not for me. I just, like I said, what they had attempted to me was kind of comical. And so my attitude was, well, you know, let me show you how to do this. And I did. I put together a bomb and ensured that it was gifted to Yogi. And when he plugged in the engine, the eight track blew up on him, blew his toilet and his sink off the wall. It was enough to let him know that you don't want to try to slingshot bombs into my cell anymore. Otherwise I'll blow you and your whole cell up. It's a deterrent.

[Interviewer (Nick Van der Kolk)]

How do you square all of this as, I mean, you've talked extensively of being someone who hates violence. How do you square that with smuggling these weapons into this?

[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

Well, the presumption is that it needs to be squared, right? You see, you say, well, how do you square that? Why would I try? I never consciously thought, well, you know, I don't like violence, but, gee, I wonder if I should do this. No, that would be disingenuous. So, no, I never gave really any thought. As a matter of fact, I pursued every possible angle I could think of.

[Interviewer (Nick Van der Kolk)]

I can kind of see the argument with knives or even a gun, you know, for self protection. If you're building a bomb, that seems much more aggressive and actually creating violence as opposed to self defense.

[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

Well, you would think so. You know, this country has how many nuclear bombs?

[Interviewer (Nick Van der Kolk)]

I mean, hundreds of hundreds.

[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

And they're all for what purpose? Peace. Right. So if you're suing for peace and your opponent realizes that they're outmatched and that ultimately what's going to happen is that they're going to suffer if they don't agree to peace, then that has value, doesn't it?

[Interviewer (Nick Van der Kolk)]

And was it effective? I mean, did he stop going after you?

[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

No, he just changed his modality. Coming off the yard, you're handcuffed behind your back, and that's the one opportunity to kill you unopposed. They would get whatever oil, butter, margarine, whatever the hell it was, and they would butter themselves up and slide through the bars, out onto the tier so that while I was still cuffed, they could butcher me. The fellow that first tried it, his name was Ricky, he had the right idea. You see, oftentimes it's just the execution of that idea that makes the difference. They cut two bars out, and he waited till I was coming in. He butted himself up, put the knife in his hand, put his hands out in front of him, started to slide out through the bars. You can't test it. Once you go, you go. Problem was, the opening wasn't wide enough. Ricky was pretty husky lad, and he got stuck. The guard ran off the tier and left me there. While I saw him coming out, I went to a cell and had the cuffs removed from me. I always had somebody with a handcuff key and had him unlock my cuffs. I walked up to the cell and Ricky was stuck. He couldn't go either way. He's got his hands out in front of him. He's got this big old bone crusher in his hands. He's looking over the top of his eyelids at me like, okay, what are you gonna do? So I reached down and he tried to keep me from removing the knife from his hand. And he wasn't successful. I removed it. So I said, ricky, we. You both know what I could do right now, right? And he didn't say anything. I said, so here's how it's going to work. I'm going to push you back inside, and my suggestion to you is to stay inside. And so I did. I pushed him back inside his cell and then went and locked.

[Interviewer (Nick Van der Kolk)]

Am I right in assuming that there are very few other members of the brand who would have done the same thing in that situation?

[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

Well, I don't think any of them would have. They would have taken the knife away from him and butchered him, left him stuck in the Bars. I mean, it's what's called a freebie.

[Interviewer (Nick Van der Kolk)]

Was that ever a conflict for you? The other members were incredibly brutal. I mean, did you ever take issue with that level of brutality?

[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

No. No, that would have been a mistake. When an individual enters into violence with another individual whose intent is the same or similar, then the outcome is on them. I mean, I've had a man practically decapitated right in front of my cell. Both AB members, the victim and the

[Interviewer (Nick Van der Kolk)]

person who did it.

[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

No, there was no victim. See, they were both engaged. And the loser of that engagement was damn near decapitated. And it comes with the territory. Oftentimes people get upset when I use that term. It comes with the territory, as if I'm just being indifferent or c' est la vie nonchalant about it. I'm not. I'm assessing the value. And being in a controlled environment, being caught up in what's going on in what you see, and not allowing that to impact you, because if you do, it diminishes your capacity, you see, to function within that environment. I took a knife away from a guy once that was intent on killing me. It was political. He was another AB member. I was in a position of leadership, and I had outlawed drug use. So he was waiting until I walking in from the yard, and he had his arms inside the bars to another cell, and, like, he was just chatting. I felt it as I was getting ready to walk by him. And then I just took his arm. I pushed it into the bars, and he had a knife in it. So I held him there and took the knife away from him. I took him down and he pled for his life. He begged me.

[Interviewer (Nick Van der Kolk)]

You were holding him down on the ground or what?

[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

Yes.

[Interviewer (Nick Van der Kolk)]

Yeah. With the knife to his throat, close.

[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

He wasn't going to move, so choice was mine. Within prison culture, I would have been perfectly within my rights, take his life, because he was going to take mine. But that's not how I see it. And that's where ethics comes in. And the intimacy associated with that is. I made a decision not to take his life. There was no need. Now, people later objected to that saying, man, you're just leaving him alive to come back and get you another day. I said, I don't think so. You see? And the reason I don't think so is because I choked up on the knife. And I tattooed a circle around his heart, lasting circle. And that was a very intimate act. It's really not a matter of being master over life and death. That's nonsense. I Attempt to live in the moment. When I was confronted later about leaving him alive, it was kind of like, what? Are you serious? They perceived what had occurred. Betrayal. And that based on that betrayal alone, I should have taken his life. Then him attempting to take my life, I should have taken his life. And the fact that he was an AB member and now was going contrary to the AB because I was one of its leaders, that was a betrayal. It's interesting how people think when they're attempting to justify or rationalize the damage to another human being.

[Interviewer (Nick Van der Kolk)]

Love and Radio will return after these messages.

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[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

Exhale. Feel your body relax, and let go

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[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

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[Interviewer (Nick Van der Kolk)]

Chapter four, Counterintelligence. I'd love to get a better understanding of how your role within the brand shifted and, like, how you rose in the leadership.

[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

I mean, I was in more knife fights than anybody. It was that and the control of resources. Suddenly the brand has available to it resources that it never had.

[Interviewer (Nick Van der Kolk)]

Like what?

[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

Like buck knives. You know, that's a hell of a resource in a controlled environment. So I became one of those more influential members as a result, when something needed to be done. Then now I've got the group coming to me and saying, you know, what do you think about this? How should we do this? This?

[Interviewer (Nick Van der Kolk)]

Can you give me an example?

[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

Yeah. You've got an altercation kicking off in the hole and on the main line simultaneously, there's going to be bloodshed. It's between the Black Panthers, Black Guerrilla Family, the Aryan Brotherhood and the Mexican Mafia. You simultaneously go off in the Hole and on the main line. So those members that are on the main line take it upon themselves to attack these rival gang members out there and their associates. And in the hole, the same thing. Orchestrating that takes skill, particularly when you're in the hole. Orchestrating, bringing knives in through the visiting room takes skill. Maintaining a status quo with staffs takes skill. People used to get upset with me about talking to staff, but I had my motives. That was not their mindset. Their mindset was, oh, you don't talk to staff, you don't talk to staff, somebody will think you're ratting. And I used to tell them, I don't care what other people think. If I want to talk to them, I'm going to talk to them, because I have something in mind relative to what I'm doing. And I did. It was called counterintelligence, and I utilized counterintelligence quite effectively as a result of my rapport with staff members.

[Interviewer (Nick Van der Kolk)]

Can you tell me a specific story of when you used counterintelligence in that way?

[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

Well, I can. We knew that we had somebody cooperating with the administration, with law enforcement, and I needed to find out who. So what I did was I took four individuals that I suspected of working with staff. I would pull them aside, and I would give each individual a story, four different stories. And then that information came back to me through another staff member. Then I knew that that individual that I told that story to was what I referred to as a conduit. In other words, he was feeding information as a conduit.

[Interviewer (Nick Van der Kolk)]

What were the things you would look for in a staff person that made you think, okay, I can get this person in the pocket?

[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

With staff, you have to gain inroads into their personality, their personal life, which is not difficult if you're dealing with a Vietnam vet. The troubles he had in Vietnam, if he came back, as many of them did, a heroin addict, it's a matter of feeding that addiction. And then from that, you essentially have control over him and what you want him to do. In other cases, like with one particular lieutenant, he had a thing for women, prostitutes. So it was a matter of setting him up in a hotel room with prostitutes. He was married and filming that. It was a matter of extorting those weaknesses, you know, to facilitate what she wanted.

[Interviewer (Nick Van der Kolk)]

When you were kind of at the height of your powers in the brand, what did that look like? What did you actually control in the prison?

[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

Everything. My basic idea was to create an infrastructure that was more along the lines of organized crime. I used the Italian Mafia as an example. What it looks like is that you control the population. We had old Folsom at that time and we had San Quentin, we had Chino and a few other prisons. The potential to generate revenues out of those prisons was enormous. You're talking populations in a thousand small cities. You're controlling the jobs, drug trafficking, alcohol, you have prostitution, you have loans, you have stores, and you're controlling all that. So that's why the FBI made that estimation that I'd taken 3.5 million out of the prison that year. I think that was an overestimate, but I didn't argue with sounded good.

[Interviewer (Nick Van der Kolk)]

And that was 3.5 million that went to various affiliates?

[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

Yes. Well, you figure 50,000 of that went to the warden. 10,000 for each shipment brought in by a staff member. So you have expenditures, but. But by the same token your members and your associates and those individuals that essentially what you're referred to as you're taking care of. And then the idea that if you have families on the outside that they're being taken care of rather than the members and their associates slamming drugs and partying. Essentially I wanted a more disciplined organization that was drug free and alcohol free and that was focused on generating revenues toward the benefit of not only themselves, but their families. And that was my approach.

[Interviewer (Nick Van der Kolk)]

Did you like being in the brand?

[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

I don't know that I ever thought about that. But I understand why you're asking it and how you're asking it. You know, being in the brand was a 247 alert. I was in more altercations than I can possibly count. I was having to deal with staff, I was having to deal with rival gangs, I was having to deal with internal struggle. So there was no peace. So my answer would have to be, even though I made this decision toward my survival, that it was removed me from who I actually was. And I didn't consciously think about that. I wasn't happy, you know, I wasn't using drugs, I wasn't self medicating. I don't drink. I have enormous responsibility. I probably like that, particularly within a controlled environment. The idea that you're in a controlled environment and you're not supposed to be able to do certain things, but you're doing them anyway. The ego can get in your way relative to that. And I don't think that I'm immune to this, that. But yeah, if I'm honest about my mindset and my sense of who I was at that time, that there was a part of me that thrived on

[Interviewer (Nick Van der Kolk)]

it, but the brand grew. It sounds like.

[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

Yes. Yes.

[Interviewer (Nick Van der Kolk)]

Like with your involvement.

[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

Yes, it did. It did.

[Interviewer (Nick Van der Kolk)]

You played kind of a pivotal role in that.

[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

I did, yeah. That's the problem.

[Singer or Performer]

In Erie time I was bred and born in Stephen's green a lion scorn I served my time to the settling

[Interviewer (Nick Van der Kolk)]

trade

[Singer or Performer]

But I turned, I turn

[Narrator/Documentary Voice]

But

[Singer or Performer]

I turned out to be a roving

[Narrator/Documentary Voice]

bl

[Singer or Performer]

at 17 I took a wife I loved her dearly as I love of my life but for to keep her both fine and gay I went a robbing I went a robbing on the king's highway I never.

[Podcast Announcer]

That's it for this episode of Blood Memory. Stay tuned to the end for a sneak peek of the next installment. Music on this episode comes from Matt Amen. Michel Benabila, star of the Sea, Serepti Quixosis, Rosarito, Medeavida Interbellum, Will Bolton, Entranius and Silvagia and Esmeralda, Strange bird sounds, Myrma Sulo, Isaac Soto and Landless. Check the show notes for the full playlist. Additional voices on this episode were provided by Tina Antolini. The series producer of Blood Memory is Meera Kumar. Robin Amer is our managing editor. Additional reporting by Bryan Kranz and Anya Schulz, fact checking by Nicole Pasulka and Visuals by Orla McCarty. Love and radio is a labor of love and radio and made possible thanks to our members with extra special thanks to Rock Hard Abs Casey, Pamela Anderson, Mark Dunksasan, Aaron Go Goers, Sam Huffman, the Huffman, Jacqueline Potato Leak, Keith McLendry, Leith McKendry, Joe Tato, Palm Harry, Ally Mothra, Perry Grease, Lesage, William Stabby Spears, Jason V For Vendetta. And if you'd like to join the fine group of people who make love and radio happen, head on over to loveandradio.orgmember to join us on Patreon. Or if you listen on Apple podcasts, you can subscribe right in the app. You'll get access to the next episode of Blood Memory right now ad free. I'm Nicholas Sardine. Punch Punch van der Kolk. Thanks for listening.

[Singer or Performer]

And I was taken by the curse of. My father Cried O my darling song My wife she. My mother tore her white locks and cry Was in the cradle was in the cradle he should have died. A flashy funeral Prey let me hide. Give them the bronze heart and sweet liberty. And when I'm done they will speak the truth. He was a wild ant he was a wild and a wicked.

[Interviewer (Nick Van der Kolk)]

Coming up on the next episode of Blood Memory.

[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

We knew he was in protective custody and there was essentially no way to get to him. Linky's reasoning was we can't get to him, let's kill his family. He proposed the idea that, you know, that his wife and child be assassined. What did the others say to a man? Every one of them agreed with him except me.

[Interviewer (Nick Van der Kolk)]

Coming to this feed next week or listen now by becoming a Love and Radio member.

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[Mike (Interviewee, former Aryan Brotherhood member)]

Oh wow, that was easy.

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