Episode 07: 19 Times

Summary

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Love and Radio: Blood Memory

Episode 07: "19 Times"

Date: March 16, 2026
Host: Nick van der Kolk

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Episode Overview

This episode of Love and Radio: Blood Memory revolves around Michael Thompson—a former Aryan Brotherhood member turned informant—and the epic rollercoaster across 19 parole hearings over decades of incarceration. Through layered conversations with Thompson himself, his wife Brandy Duvall, former prosecutor Heather Brown, and investigator Clint McCall, the episode scrutinizes the thorny intersection of justice, redemption, and personal identity, raising hard questions about truth, manipulation, and what it means to truly change.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Michael Thompson's Relationship with Brandy Duvall

• Meeting and Early Correspondence
  • Brandy meets Michael while representing a client who wants Thompson to recant his testimony. Their connection begins platonically but deepens into a foundational relationship.
    • “She’s really taught me how to be a human being.” —Michael Thompson [02:20]
  • Their visits and conversations span a decade before romance emerges, grounded in mutual respect and shared advocacy.
• Marriage Behind Bars
  • Their wedding was held confidentially, over a speakerphone, due to safety and professional risks for Brandy.
    • “She stood out front of the prison, and I went into the captain’s office... we married each other.” —Michael Thompson [08:57]
• Secrecy and Professional Risks
  • Duvall, a mitigation specialist, feared backlash for marrying a prisoner, and safety concerns following threats after Michael dropped out of the Aryan Brotherhood.
    • “You’re married to a murderer, Ex con. Exab Member... that whole get down.” —Michael Thompson [09:53]

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2. Life Inside and the Parole Process

• Repeated Denials: "You lack insight"
  • Michael attended 18 parole hearings, consistently denied because he refused to accept guilt for the crimes he maintains he didn’t commit.
    • “Until you come in here and tell us what it says here and own up to that, you lack insight.” — Michael Thompson [12:41]
• Pressure to Admit Guilt
  • Michael contemplates falsely confessing for parole, but Brandy’s moral absolutism holds firm:
    • “If you say you’re guilty when you’re not, you’re not coming home to me.” —Brandy Duvall [14:03]

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3. The Skeptics: Prosecutor Heather Brown & Investigator Clint McCall

• Heather Brown’s Relentless Opposition
  • Attends four or five parole hearings, convinced of Michael's manipulation and charm, especially using pseudo-Native American identity and academic claims.
    • “Anytime he looked bad in any situation, he would turn those facts to he was actually doing a good thing to help someone.” —Heather Brown [18:15]
• Unpacking The Native American Claim
  • Investigated by McCall and Brown; official records show no evidence of indigenous heritage.
    • “They actually send me a letter that says Michael is not an enrolled member with them... there is nobody in his family tree that I can find with Native American blood.” —Clint McCall [25:27]
• Michael’s Counter: The Meaning of Identity
  • Maintains it’s a question of culture, not blood:
    • “I was raised Native. It has nothing to do with genetics or otherwise.” —Michael Thompson [32:46]
    • From his parole hearing: “I’m not interested in being Indian. Not ever. Not now. I’m a human being. And that’s what I was taught to be...” [33:18]

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4. Violence, Accountability, and Media

• Claims of Violence
  • Michael appears in Nat Geo’s “Lockdown,” stating he killed 22 men in prison.
    • “I’m probably one of the most violent individuals you’ll ever meet in your life. Don’t brag, just fact. It’s that simple.” —Michael Thompson [35:12]
  • He clarifies on the show: That number referred to AB-related deaths under his leadership, not his personal actions, lamenting sensationalism:
    • “If I’d killed 22 people, that would essentially make me a serial killer... There is no statute of limitations on murder.” —Michael Thompson [38:34]

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5. The 19th Parole Hearing: "Going Beyond Hopelessness"

• An Unexpected Release
  • Brandy describes the ritual of drumming up support for every hearing, growing cynicism, and a fading sense of destiny.
    • “Every time he comes up for parole, I have to whip everybody into an enthusiastic, ‘Come on, let’s do this.’ Even if they’ve done it like seven times before and it never worked...” —Brandy Duvall [41:55]
  • Michael’s account of the successful hearing: a direct, honest dialogue finally breaks through.
    • “If you want to keep me in here for the rest of my life, I accept that.” —Michael Thompson [44:32]
    • The commissioner’s advice: “You’re a very humble man... If you will embrace that humility every day when you get up, you’ll be fine.” —Parole Commissioner (via Michael) [45:13]
• Reactions to Release
  • Brandy is shocked, experiencing a frozen, timeless moment.
    • “It’s almost like a Zen moment. The past is not there. The future’s not there. It’s just that moment. Eternity in that one little space.” —Brandy Duvall [45:45]
  • Heather Brown receives word from a retired colleague and has mixed feelings, wondering if she could have prevented it.
    • “I want to say, I told you so, you dumb big dummies... That’s how I feel.” —Heather Brown [47:16]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Brandy’s Impact:
  “What he taught me doesn’t compare to what she’s taught me over the last 18 years. That’s just the truth of it.” —Michael Thompson [02:23]

• On Prison Life and Identity:
  “You’re not qualified to be a bad guy, Michael. You never were and you never will be. You’re just disqualified.” —Brandy Duvall [05:09]

• On Admitting Guilt for Parole:
  “If you said you did this, you might be released, but... You’re not coming home to me.” —Brandy Duvall [14:03]

• On Self-Perception and Morality:
  “I’m probably one of the most violent individuals you’ll ever meet in your life. Don’t brag, just fact.” —Michael Thompson [35:12]

• On Parole Denials:
  “I had no expectation that I was going to be paroled. It started off the same way... So if you want to keep me in here for the rest of my life, I accept that.” —Michael Thompson [43:50, 44:32]

• The Release:
  “He could hardly speak, and he said, they granted in parole. I was like, what?” —Brandy Duvall [45:45]

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Important Timestamps

• [02:00–03:26] Michael describes meeting Brandy for the first time.
• [05:09–06:32] Brandy reflects on Michael’s true nature and her resolve to help.
• [08:57] Michael & Brandy’s marriage over prison speakerphone.
• [10:20–12:24] Michael recounts surviving an attempted hit in prison.
• [12:41–14:03] The moral dilemma over admitting guilt to the board.
• [15:08–16:26] Heather Brown’s first impression at a parole hearing.
• [18:15] Heather’s skepticism over Michael’s self-presentation.
• [25:27–26:24] McCall debunks Michael’s Native American claims.
• [32:46–33:18] Michael’s cultural definition of his identity.
• [35:12–38:53] Media sensationalism and the real meaning behind “killed 22.”
• [41:55–43:50] Brandy describes the emotional fatigue of 19 parole cycles.
• [44:32–45:45] The moment of release—shock and disbelief.

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Tone & Style

The episode is unflinching, candid, and reflective—juxtaposing the poetic and personal language of Michael and Brandy with the procedural, skeptical commentary from Brown and McCall. There’s intimacy, regret, defiance, dry wit, and moments of existential gravity—holding the listener in the uncertain gray between guilt and redemption.

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Summary Takeaway

"19 Times" is a riveting meditation on who gets believed, who is forgiven, and whether a person—especially one whose history is stitched with violence, manipulation, and transformation—can ever truly be known. It forces listeners to wrestle with the blurry boundaries of truth, the machinery of criminal justice, and the enduring human need for meaning and connection, all set against the backdrop of a two-decade war for Michael Thompson’s freedom.

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Transcript

[Michael Thompson]

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[Nick Vander Kolk]

Previously on Blood memory.

[Brandy Duvall]

In about 2005, I got a case of a Aryan brotherhood defendant, Michael McElhaney, or Big Mac, as he called him.

[Heather Brown]

In that moment, I thought, I'm gonna become a prosecutor to lock all these fuckers up.

[Brandy Duvall]

Okay, Mack, you want to send me to Michael Thompson, who bucked the whole ab, dropped out and testified against them, and you think I'm going to go there and convince him to take back his testimony? To recant?

[Heather Brown]

He's full of shit. That's all there is to it. He can be as good looking as he wants. He's lying. He believes his own lies. He's truly pathological. I do believe that he believes his own lies.

[Nick Vander Kolk]

From love and radio. You're listening to Blood Memory. I'm Nick Vander Kolk. This is episode seven. 19 times. You want to step outside for a minute and get some fresh air?

[Michael Thompson]

Sure. Do I look tired?

[Nick Vander Kolk]

Some water? You have been talking for, you know, seven hours today.

[Michael Thompson]

So really close to talky old thing, aren't I? Yeah. Let's stretch. I talked to Arielle this morning.

[Nick Vander Kolk]

Oh, yeah?

[Michael Thompson]

And whereas she had apprehension about you being here initially, she's now quite pleased.

[Nick Vander Kolk]

Okay. What turned things around?

[Michael Thompson]

Told her we had a very candid conversation.

[Nick Vander Kolk]

Good.

[Michael Thompson]

And that I believed you. And that was good enough for me. And I trusted you.

[Nick Vander Kolk]

I'm glad you still have some play with her.

[Michael Thompson]

I do. You know, it's. We love each other. And we love each other dearly. She's my best friend. And. You know, the only person in my life that's had more influence upon me than Mox on Top Walks on Top, was a teacher. And he taught me a lot. But what he taught me doesn't compare to what she's taught me over the last 18 years. That's just the truth of it. You know, she's. She's really taught me how to be a human being. I didn't meet Dariel until 2005.

[Nick Vander Kolk]

What was your first impression of her?

[Michael Thompson]

Oh, I saw her behind glass.

[Nick Vander Kolk]

Chapter one. Ariel.

[Michael Thompson]

She's 4 foot 10, weighs 100 pounds if she's lucky. She came in, she Was wearing slacks and boots, cashmere sweater with a jacket that had a floral design on it. She came up to the window and she sat down and I sat down and we picked up the phones and we introduced ourselves. She told me why she was there, that she was representing her client and that, you know, he wanted me to recant my testimony. And I said, no, I'm not going to recant my testimony. That should have been the end of the interview, but we just started talking. What was obvious to us both immediately is that there was a spiritual connection. Then she left. We started corresponding. I don't know if I wrote her a letter or she wrote me a letter. I don't know that it matters, but, you know, then she asked if she could come up and visit me. And I said, of course she can. There was nothing romantic about it. It was friends, you know, she was just a great person. We would talk and we would eat together and she would leave. And we did that for 10 years.

[Brandy Duvall]

When I first met Michael, I was very ignorant. I just figured way this was all those years and you were in the AB for what, eight years and that's it. And you actually got out because of a conscience reason. And since then you haven't been involved at all. And you've been doing all these good things and you've gotten college degrees. He's more educated than I am. Why are you still here? You're not qualified to be a bad guy, Michael. You never were and you never will be. You're just disqualified. So, you know, he never had anybody. Just put it to him bluntly like that. He said, you're right, I'm a failure as a bad guy. I said, yes, you're a failure as a bad guy. And you always would have been. You're not suited. I could see that he was discouraged and I felt really bad for him because nobody should be discouraged. But why wouldn't they? You're in prison. At that point, I didn't understand so much about prison. So very naively I thought, I'm going to help you get out of prison. At that point, it's not like we had a relationship. I just. I thought so highly of him. I thought, this is ridiculous. I'm going to help you get out of prison. So I just buckled down and tried to, first of all read up on his case, do the same things as I would for any case. I interviewed people from his case. The wife that he was married to at the time, his mother, his father. They basically all gave me reason to believe that Michael Was, as he said, innocent of the charges. So that got me mad. And I said, oh, my God, you've been in here all this time and you're not even guilty. That's just amazing and horrible. You know, you ought to get out. If people knew this, they'd help you and you'd get out.

[Michael Thompson]

We have a strong foundation. She came to see me every weekend without fail, supported me. So all the programs I went through, everything going to the board, getting support letters, advocating for me, being an activist, really. We at one point realized that this was going beyond just a platonic relationship. And I remember we were sitting there and I said, this is great. I'm delighted, but how are we going to deal with this problem? She said, what, Rob? I said, well, I said, I'm robbing a cradle here. You have to be at least half my age. And she started laughing. She walked up to the podium and got her driver's license and brought it back and handed it to me. And, you know, she's two years older than me. I said, what? How can that be? We began to talk about marriage and what that would mean.

[Brandy Duvall]

I didn't want to get married. He would bring it up occasionally. I said, you know what? I don't see the point of getting married. I said, this is what a marriage is. To me, marriage is something for society. And in society, it means that there's somebody there when you come home, when you leave, somebody to cook dinner for, to eat dinner with, to go to bed with and get up in the morning to take the kids to school. I said, you can't do that with me. I'm sorry. It's not your fault. But it's very hard for you to be a husband and for me to be a wife and for us to have a marriage. So I don't really care about that. We talked about it in a very matter of fact way, and we decided that, well, it would just make him appear more stable if he were married, you know, instead of having just a girlfriend or whatever. So I said, yeah, you're right. That makes sense.

[Nick Vander Kolk]

Did you have a ceremony or how did that work?

[Michael Thompson]

Well, I guess you could have a ceremony. We decided not to do that, and they didn't want me to do anything that would expose her to that relationship to me. So we had a confidential marriage, and the marriage license was confidential, is sealed. So she stood out front of the prison, and I went into the captain's office, and they put us on speakerphone and we married each other.

[Nick Vander Kolk]

Over speakerphone?

[Michael Thompson]

Yeah. We've Always told ourselves when I got out, we'd have another ceremony. And I hope to do that. I hope to do that.

[Nick Vander Kolk]

But you have to keep it secret.

[Michael Thompson]

Yeah, yeah. It's just recently here that she's exposed herself as my wife.

[Brandy Duvall]

As a matter of fact, doing this interview is really outing me because in the prison system, I am not listed as spouse. It's a confidential marriage that you can only know about it if you go into his confidential file.

[Nick Vander Kolk]

Do we have to keep that information under wraps? Like, what's your feeling on that?

[Brandy Duvall]

I think it's time to come out of hiding. The main reason why we were so hesitant to be public is, you know, first of all, there's my occupation, of course, and the bias that I may be facing professionally if people knew I was married to a prisoner.

[Michael Thompson]

She works in the legal profession as a mitigation specialist. So, you know, there's potential fallout there. You know, oh, you're married to a murderer, Ex con. Exab Member. You know, that whole get down.

[Brandy Duvall]

But the other part of it is safety. In the beginning, when he dropped out, he had a lot of threats against his life and against his wife and his family.

[Michael Thompson]

There was an attempt on my life while I was at Lancaster not too long after we were married.

[Nick Vander Kolk]

What happened?

[Michael Thompson]

Actually, I was trying to help guys prepare for the board and do different things. There was a guy that was going to the board the next morning, and I was sitting on a bench with him, going over some paperwork to help him prepare for the board in the morning. Mexican mafia contract came from behind me. My fault. I shouldn't have let him get behind me, but I did. And he did a roundhouse kick from behind me, took me off the back of the bench I was sitting on, and I went semi unconscious. I could still hear, but I couldn't see. He grabbed my hair in his hand, and he pulled my head up, and he reached in with the box cutter to slice my throat. So I blocked it, of course, because I couldn't see, not completely. I caught it and threw it off its trajectory to cut my windpipe and my throat. So I brought it up high, and he cut my ear in half. Still, this whole time, I'm trying to struggle to get consciousness back so that I could see. So he reached in again to cut my throat. I blocked it again, but again only partially, because then he caught the back of my throat at the anterior artery. So then again, I felt him choke up on my hair again and reposition himself as he started to reach in again with the box cutter. I got my vision back. I proceeded to take the weapon away from him. It went through my head as to how I was going to break his neck, and just in a nanosecond. But in that nanosecond, when I did that, I heard Ariel's voice in my head. She said, no, sky, which is my given name. Old man sky, it's my older name. That stopped me. So I took the box cutter and I put it up underneath me, and I laid down on top of it till staff got there. I didn't use it against him. I didn't break his neck. Doctor said about one more millimeter more and he'd got. You.

[Nick Vander Kolk]

You have a scar on the.

[Michael Thompson]

Oh, yeah, across my ear. All these here. All these scars here. I don't know if you can see them. Yeah, yeah, that's what those are. Part of my collect.

[Nick Vander Kolk]

How many times did you go before the parole board?

[Michael Thompson]

18 times before the board. You know, the issue always was not my involvement with the Aryan Brotherhood, because that went back to the 70s. And just first couple of years in the 80s, they wanted me to admit to crime. And I knew that years and years and years ago. And so it was a repeat each time I would go in. You know, they want to know about the commitment offense. I'd give my version. They say, well, that's not what it says here. So you lack insight. So otherwise, what they were telling me, until you come in here and tell us what it says here and own up to that, you lack insight.

[Nick Vander Kolk]

You told me there was a point at which you were tempted to actually admit to the crime.

[Michael Thompson]

Wasn't that I was tempted to admit to the crime. I went to my wife because of all the years that she'd gone through supporting me. And I knew that if I went in there and just said, okay, I did this, and, you know, lay it all out the way they want it, they'd release me. There's no doubt in my mind about

[Brandy Duvall]

that at that point. He asked me, one of the reasons why they keep denying me is because I insist that I'm not guilty. Do you want me to say that I'm guilty? And do you want me to, quote, unquote, admit that I'm guilty? Then they might let me out. I have a better chance of being released.

[Michael Thompson]

She looked me right in the eye and. Which is difficult for her at 4 foot 10, but she did.

[Brandy Duvall]

I said, well, yeah, if you said you did this, you might be released, although I have some doubts about that, too. You might be released, but if you were Released on the basis of lying and saying that you did this when you didn't. You're not coming home to me. No. You do what you want, but if you say you're guilty when you're not, you're not coming home to me.

[Nick Vander Kolk]

Why was that important to you?

[Brandy Duvall]

Because one of the things I liked about him is because he told the truth. I don't like liars. I just. You tell me one lie, even if it's a small one, what am I to think? What else are you lying about?

[Nick Vander Kolk]

Chapter two. Heather.

[Heather Brown]

I had gotten myself on a list to cover parole hearings. They're all, you know, people who have been sentenced to a life sentence. And so they are now coming up for parole. And we, as the prosecutor, have the opportunity to go and oppose the release of those individuals and present any evidence at those hearings as to why that person shouldn't be released. So I went to the prison, and, you know, the hearing was, I believe, at like, three in the afternoon.

[Nick Vander Kolk]

What does it look like? How many people are usually there? Like, I've never been to a parole hearing.

[Michael Thompson]

It's like a boardroom with big, long table, and they sit on the other side of the table, and you're on this side of the table. There are microphones, and everything is being recorded. And you're sworn under oath.

[Heather Brown]

Before the hearing begins, Presiding Commissioner Leanne Crohns. All right. Good afternoon.

[Brandy Duvall]

The time is 4:42pm this is a

[Heather Brown]

subsequent parole consideration hearing from Michael Thompson. Today's date is September 2, 2008. This hearing is being the first parole hearing that I went to. There were two women that were on the board, and I was sat there watching this, and they were enamored with him. They were like, wow, we applaud you for getting your PhD.

[Brandy Duvall]

You've accomplished a lot in prison.

[Heather Brown]

You're close to having your PhD if I'm not incorrect, which obviously is an accomplishment for anybody, let alone someone that's incarcerated. And I'm like, PhD. I think that's bullshit. When I was in that parole hearing, and he claims his Indian heritage was like the peace pipe holder, and he spoke as the crow flies, and he had all this, you know, jargon to indicate that he was Native American. Inmate Thompson.

[Michael Thompson]

25 years ago, I assumed responsibilities for the sacred pipe. It was at that time when I had a lot of people that cared about me and were talking to me about removing myself from the gang, that the gang did not represent my morals and my values and what I'd been taught. I was offered an opportunity to accept responsibility for something else that was sacred to our people and our way of life.

[Heather Brown]

And I was like, I'm not buying that. But at that moment, I didn't have anything to refute that. Even how he presents himself with the Aryan Brotherhood, in turning against them, he spun it. So it's like, oh, what a good guy. Isn't Mr. Thompson a nice guy? He stopped killing people because he had a code of ethics. He wasn't going to kill women and children. I believe that's his excuse for why he got out of the gang.

[Brandy Duvall]

Right?

[Heather Brown]

Yeah. Seems kind of honorable. But really. Oh, you decided maybe I shouldn't kill. Right. Because men aren't worthy of having a life to live either. Does nobody see how ridiculous that sounds? A life is a life. You're not any more special because you decide not to kill women and children. That does not make you a good person. Killing is killing. How about, let's not kill anybody? Let's just start from there? You understand that he had a man dig a huge ditch in his backyard, and at the parole hearing, he claimed that was for his dead dog. You paid someone back in the 70s, like, $500? You know how much money that was back in the 70s to dig a ditch for your dead dog? And coincidentally, two people's bodies end up in the backyard. I'm not buying it. When he was speaking in front of the parole board, he would twist things ever so slightly. Anytime he looked bad in any situation, he would turn those facts to he was actually doing a good thing to help someone. He ran away with the victim's wife, and then he claimed it was because she was a heroin addict and he had to help her with her addiction. Inmate Thompson.

[Michael Thompson]

She was prostituting herself out of her condominium and had a severe cocaine habit. And that was a real detriment, particularly when we got to Oregon. I was fortunate in that I had the help of my mother and family, but she was going through severe withdrawals.

[Heather Brown]

Deputy District Attorney Heather Brown. Would the board inquire as to whether or not he actually had an affair with Mrs. Nunley prior to murdering her husband? Attorney for the inmate Brandy Duvall. Mr. Thompson says he wouldn't mind answering it, but under advice of counsel, we're not going to answer that. The people that are assigned to that hearing are only looking at what they're looking at in that moment, and they have hearing after hearing. They're not going back historically and saying, wait, wait a minute. What was his story when he first got to prison? I guarantee you, if you Pull those transcripts. His story has morphed. Every time I went, it morphed just a little bit. That's not what they wanted to hear. And he turns it just a little bit. Just turns the dial just a little bit until he gets that board that is so persuaded by his manipulative tactics. I thought, wow, I wouldn't be surprised if they let this guy out next time, because nobody's looking into these things. And so I was in the elevator at work, and I was telling this guy Jim Mendelsohn, who was like a fighter pilot in the military and then became a da, and I said to Jim, jim, I got a case that you need to go on the next parole hearing, right? Because I figured he's not afraid of anybody. He's not afraid of getting whacked. And he carries a gun. I don't. So I do. Now, for the record. And a Taser and a dog. I got some cyanide pills. I'll slip in your drink. Okay, so my husband's a sharpshooter for the FBI, so make sure you put that in. Okay? What was I saying? Okay, so I tell Jim, you gotta go. And so, literally, about three days later, this investigator, his name's Clint McCall, he was amazing in the DA's office. And he was one of those guys that, for some reason, the other people in the office didn't like him because they're like, oh, he's a butt kisser. And it's like, no, he's not a butt kisser. He works really, really hard. He loved to work. He came to my office and said, hey, I heard you on the elevator talking about the case. I'm kind of bored. I'd love to sink my teeth into that. And I was like, oh, my God, you're the guy. So I gave him the box and said, this is what he claimed at this hearing. I'm calling bullshit. And I told him, I don't care if you have to find the chief of the tribe, find out if he was actually in that Trib.

[Nick Vander Kolk]

Love and Radio will return after these messages.

[Brandy Duvall]

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[Michael Thompson]

Go to your happy price Priceline.

[Nick Vander Kolk]

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[Clint McCall]

Hello?

[Nick Vander Kolk]

Hello, is this Clint?

[Clint McCall]

Yes.

[Nick Vander Kolk]

Hey, it's Nick Fenner. Kolk. How are you?

[Clint McCall]

Good, good. Except I'm sweating my ass off here.

[Nick Vander Kolk]

Yeah, it's super warm over there.

[Clint McCall]

Yeah, and I live about eight miles from the beach. A 79, but I'm working around chapter three.

[Nick Vander Kolk]

Clint. So when did you first become aware of Michael Thompson?

[Clint McCall]

So I became first aware of Michael Thompson. It would have been in the late 2000s watching a national Geographic special.

[Nick Vander Kolk]

Yeah, yeah. Same. Same here.

[Michael Thompson]

I'm not the kind of man that you want to underestimate. The fact that I'm still life proves that his name is Michael Thompson.

[Nick Vander Kolk]

As a leader of the.

[Clint McCall]

I approached Heather Brown and I said, you know, I'm going to do some research and find out about this guy because he appeared to me as a con.

[Nick Vander Kolk]

What about him? Sort of appeared to be a con to you?

[Clint McCall]

He was this larger than life figure. He had a very good gift of gab. But it just seemed to me that his stories were over the top. Unbelievable.

[Nick Vander Kolk]

Were there any particular stories of his that come to mind that didn't pass the smell test for you?

[Clint McCall]

Yeah, there's a couple. At one point he claimed that he had a PhD but that he had earned his PhD while he was in custody. And I subsequently investigated that college and found that it was nothing more than a diploma bill. And so no, he does not. I don't know his level of. Highest level of education, but it is certainly not a PhD. The biggest thing that I uncovered is this story he tells about being an American Indian. A Native American. He claims that he's a member of the Turtle Mountain band of Chippewa Indians. Well, I contact the Bureau of Indian affairs and I tell them, hey, there's a inmate. And this is what he's claiming. Here's all the information. Is this true or not? They actually send me a letter that says Michael is not an enrolled member with them. So once again, that's a lie. I asked this genealogist with the Bureau of Indian affairs can you look through your records and can you tell me does he have any Indian blood in him whatsoever? Is there a way to determine that if he's got any relatives? And so this genealogist ends up building a family tree of Michael Thompson going back to the early 1800s. And he uses census records, birth and death certificates. And he sends me a package of his research which the stack of papers was about 3 inches high and says there is nobody in his family tree that I can find with Native American blood.

[Nick Vander Kolk]

Is there anything that you've checked on that actually turned out to be true that you weren't expecting to be true?

[Clint McCall]

Well, he did provide information as an informant to several law enforcement agencies. That didn't surprise me because I think everything Michael Thompson does is self serving. He was convicted of murder, murdering two people and the murders were self serving. He entered the rough world of state prison and he made the determination that he wanted to join a prison gang and that was self serving. When the prison gang could no longer serve him, he made the determination that he wanted to become an informant and separate himself from the gang. He fabricated this whole nonsense about being a Native American for complete self service. And then of course, every time he testified at parole hearings, he provided self serving statements, many of which were just total lies.

[Nick Vander Kolk]

I guess the question is like, why did he leave the Aryan Brotherhood if it's true that he self serving?

[Clint McCall]

I don't know the answer to that. It may have been as simple as he realized that he was going to spend the rest of his life in prison. And if there was any chance, just knowing how he thinks, if there's any chance that I can get out, I'm not going to get out. As a member of the Aryan Brotherhood. The only way I'm going to get out of prison as a member of the Aryan Brotherhood is in a pine box. So what else can I do to get out of prison?

[Nick Vander Kolk]

Was there ever a moment that you got any kind of sense that like, hey, maybe this guy is reformed?

[Clint McCall]

No, no, I've never met Michael Thompson. I've never talked to him, I've never been in the same room with him. But I've certainly read and studied hundreds of hours and documents and anything I could get my hands on. And based on everything that I know about him, he is a habitual, self serving liar. Murderer.

[Nick Vander Kolk]

Chapter four. Heather.

[Heather Brown]

So I go back to the parole hearing. I think, oh great, now I'm. This is your second parole now my second one.

[Michael Thompson]

Okay.

[Heather Brown]

Presiding Commissioner Cynthia Fritz.

[Nick Vander Kolk]

Okay, we're on the record.

[Heather Brown]

The time is 1.30pm we are here for the subsequent parole consideration hearing of Michael Thompson. Today's date is December 7, 2011. So I go back to oppose the release and I then am armed with the information that we have. You can't speak to them personally. You can't say, oh, Michael, why? Blah, blah, blah. You have to say, would the board inquire of the inmate and they decide if they want to question them on the these things. So I asked him, would you please inquire of the inmate as to, oh, why it is he claimed that he was in the tribe, but yet we have a letter saying no such member. Right. He then was like, without skipping a beat, it was as if he had rehearsed and practiced in case we did look into it. He was like, oh, well, you see, back in the day, one parent was from one tribe and one was from another tribe. And you couldn't have two Dawes rules numbers.

[Michael Thompson]

Inmate Thompson, Turtle Mountain Nation is the nation. On my mother's side, my grandmother, Clotel, she was from Red Lake and then later Turtle Mountain. While I'm an Anishinaabe and proud of it, as my mother stresses, I'm also Kawaia Sioux, which is here in Tehachapi, where I was born.

[Heather Brown]

I had to use my grandmother's Dawes roll number.

[Michael Thompson]

If you look at the Dawes roll, that roll number is my grand grandmother's roll number, and all her descendants come off that roll number.

[Heather Brown]

So it added credibility when we researched the grandmother's dolls roll number that he gave. We went back to the archives in Washington, D.C. and once again,

[Nick Vander Kolk]

Do you remember the former DA Heather Brown?

[Michael Thompson]

Heather Brown.

[Nick Vander Kolk]

She attended a bunch of your parole hearings to oppose your release.

[Michael Thompson]

I don't remember her. No.

[Nick Vander Kolk]

I bring her up because she had, like, a research team look into your tribal affiliations.

[Brandy Duvall]

Mm.

[Michael Thompson]

Yeah. That was interesting because they went to the Secretary of the Interior, Bureau of Indian affairs, and they pulled up all the census reports relative to my family. It was very thick. It was about 400 pages. And they submitted that to the board with the contention that I had no Native American ancestry. And so what was fascinating about that is they didn't do any more than that. They looked at the census reports where individuals were listed as white. And of course, if you were Native, then that's where you were going to list yourself with, if you were on the census report at all. But what became fascinating about that was as you got deeper into the research, as we did before we presented our arguments before the board, was that My great grandfather's name was Harry Firecrow. My grandmother's name, his wife's name was Minnie Short Fox. You don't have too many people named Firecrow or Short Fox, but it just began there. And then we got deeper into it and found out that my Uncle Milton was married to Lucy Thompson, who wrote the book to the American Indian. She was a Yurok elder. She was listed in the American Indian Census report, as was my Uncle Milton. We brought all that in. As a result of the information they provided to us, we were able to do the research. The issue for me has never been about blood quantum or whether or not I have any Native ancestry or not. The issue here is I was raised Native. It has nothing to do with genetics or otherwise. It has to do with culture. And you know what one is accustomed to in growing up.

[Nick Vander Kolk]

I was able to get a copy of the 2012 parole hearing, and I found your response on this topic super interesting when the question was raised. The relevant section, it's towards the bottom of page 48. I don't know if you'd be up for reading some of that.

[Michael Thompson]

Page 40. Ah, okay. I'm not interested in being Indian. Not ever. Not now. I'm a human being. And that's what I was taught to be, was a human being. The idea of being Indian, that means nothing to me. People get upset over that when I say that, particularly other Natives. But I was taught that our way of life is about our humanity. And from the time that I was a child, I practiced that. It's a culture, it's a way of life. I didn't think I was that articulate.

[Heather Brown]

Oh, the answer to the PhD. He claimed that because at the time he was working with state's evidence and he was getting. Giving the police information. So he had to get his degree under a fake name.

[Brandy Duvall]

He was interested in getting a college education. He took classes, but he took classes under a pseudonym because he had been, you know, people were trying to kill him. They said, sure, we'll help you take courses. But for every course he took, they gave him a pseudonym. He passed the courses, but then he thought, well, I'd like to get a degree. Well, he couldn't get one because he had taking all these courses with different names. He had enough credits to get a ba. Then he had to start all over again because it didn't count. I would have torn my hair out. I don't know if I would have had whatever to do it. But that's him. He just did it all over again.

[Heather Brown]

Mr. Thompson is on video talking about how he is an incredibly violent man.

[Michael Thompson]

I'm probably one of the most violent individuals you'll ever meet in your life. Don't brag, just fact. It's that simple.

[Nick Vander Kolk]

By his own count, he's killed 22 men inside prison all during gang related conflicts.

[Heather Brown]

To me, that should be a huge red flag to most people that this inmate should not be released ever. Not ever. One thing that upset me was it became very clear to me that that board had not watched the video that we attached, you know, of him claiming responsibility for all these murders.

[Nick Vander Kolk]

So one thing I know people will have questions about is the Nat Geo documentary. And specifically the fact that you made the claim in the documentary that you had killed 22 people. And I was hoping you could explain what were the circumstances of that.

[Michael Thompson]

It's not really that complex. You know, the reference to 22 people was the number of people that at that time law enforcement had told me had been killed by the Aryan Brotherhood. Especially as it relates to my association with the Aryan Brotherhood as one of its leaders. And so that when you take responsibility for having been in a leadership role and making decisions that impact not only yourself and those that are members in the population of the prison, but those outside the community and the families of those individuals that were killed, whether it was a mutual combat or otherwise, there's a responsibility for that. I explained that, but I don't think that that was broadcast. You know, I think it's more sensational to say that he admitted to killing 22 people. And that's unfortunate. Nat Geo came to me, they brought me into the office and they said that, you know, they wanted to do this program and I declined. I told him, no, I'm not going to do this. The next day they called me back into the office and they had this big table and they had brought in all these old guards that I knew, old timers. Their pitch was, look, Mike, this is about kids. This is about helping kids understand and we don't want them to go down this path. And this is about educating the public. And they said all the right words that resonated with me.

[Nick Vander Kolk]

So they pitched it as basically sort of this will be like a Scared Straight kind of a thing.

[Michael Thompson]

That's actually something I don't believe in. Had they pitched it that way, I wouldn't have done it. I don't believe in Scared Straight. I've worked with children and my approach to it is to treat them as human beings and to use a positive influence as opposed to a Negative influence as it relates to Nat Geo. They pitched it as educating the public and helping kids. And I said, okay. I said, alright, I'll do it. This was in 2007. I don't think I saw it until 2011. There was some negative that came as a result of it. One of it being this contention that I had admitted to killing 22 people. People lock onto that. I mean, if I'd killed 22 people, that would essentially make me a serial killer. And not only that, but I would be on death row. There is no statute of limitations on murder. So, you know, were there any truth to it, one I would have, you know, some type of investigation would have ensued and I would have been prosecuted, no question about that.

[Heather Brown]

It got very contentious with his this is character assassination. They ordered a special investigation, which they never do. I've never seen that. And then we came back again. Presiding Commissioner Cynthia Fritz. The panel reviewed all relevant information that was before us today in concluding that

[Brandy Duvall]

the prisoner is not suitable for parole

[Heather Brown]

because he poses a present risk of danger to society or threat to public safety if released.

[Nick Vander Kolk]

How many parole hearings did you actually attend at the end?

[Heather Brown]

God, at least four or five. And I thought for sure I even would laugh if I turn up dead. You might want to look at Michael Thompson. But I finally told my office, I don't want to go to these anymore. Because I felt like it was getting so contentious every time I was. I'm not saying I stood down from the fight, but then I got moved into homicide. I was super busy, and I knew that it took a lot of time to look into what he was saying. It probably would have been best if I stayed on it for consistency purposes because I knew the backstory and all the lies. It wasn't personal. It wasn't like, I'm gonna go get Michael Thompson, but if I'm assigned to do a job, I'm gonna do that job and I'm gonna do it well. And I almost felt like at some point, perhaps I'd be in harm's way if I were to keep on keeping on. And so I just figured that somebody else can fight the fight.

[Nick Vander Kolk]

Love and Radio will return after these messages.

[Heather Brown]

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[Nick Vander Kolk]

Chapter five. The 19th time.

[Brandy Duvall]

Every time he came up for parole, I would gather letters, letters of support. I feel bad because everybody. Every time he comes up for parole, I have to whip everybody into an enthusiastic, come on, let's do this. Even if they've done it, like seven times before and it never worked, you know, But I have to pretend like, yeah, you know, the bride's still a virgin and she's going to walk down the aisle. It's going to be the right wedding this time. And, you know, and really secretly I thought, this is not going to work again. But we still have to do it. You know, that's my attitude. We still have to do it. It can't be on us that we failed this one time, you know, where we might have a chance. And yet we all went, nah, it's not going to work. At that point, when he was coming up for this last parole hearing, I thought, you know what? He's probably never going to get out. It hurt me because one of the things that I hold very dear to me is my sense of destiny. There are a lot of things I don't know. I'm confused like everybody else, but there are certain things. I just feel like I know this is going to happen. I know this is right. And if you take that away from me, I think I would fall apart. I believe in God. Not a God on a throne or anything, but I believe in a higher power. I believe there's order and beauty and meaning in the universe. I believe in goodness and not evil. And if I found out that that was all not true, and it would be devastating to me. There are some truths in my life that I've always believed, and one of them was that Michael Thompson was a good man and he had a destiny to help a lot of people. I thought, well, I don't know how I Could have gotten this wrong, but it seems like I was wrong, so, whatever, I'll just stick with us. I just thought, okay, well, I guess I was wrong about that.

[Michael Thompson]

I had no expectation that I was going to be paroled. It started off the same way. The deputy commissioner started asking me all these questions, and I just said, look, nothing's changed, absolutely nothing. So if you just want them that and I can get out of here, that's fine. I said, but if you'd like to have a conversation about what really happened and what I think we can have that. The commissioner was Randy Grounds. Randy Grounds is a former warden. Old school. So we just started talking. Old school talking, you know. What about this? Yep, you're damn right I did that. That was pretty violent. Yes, it was. What about this? Yep, I did that. Why? Well, here's why. Here's what was going on. Politics of the gang and everything else, and what was trying to happen. Whatever it was I pled guilty to, you see, and he saw that if I did something, I said I did it. And the same applies here. Had I committed this crime, I'd be in here right now telling you, I'm sorry I did it. And we go from there. But that's not the case. So it's not going to happen. Doesn't matter how many times you bring me back in here, you're going to hear the same thing from me. So if you want to keep me in here for the rest of my life, I accept that. That's what I told them. They asked me to leave the room. I left the room, and then they brought me back in. And Randy says, I'm going to let you go. He extended his hand, and I took it, and we shook hands. And he says, look, he says, I want to tell you something. He said, you're a very humble man. He said, here's my advice to you, if you will embrace that humility every day when you get up, he said, you'll be fine.

[Brandy Duvall]

So when he actually called me and he was in tears, he could hardly speak, and he said, they granted in parole. I was like, what? So I was very shocked. I mean, I think anytime something shocking does happen, it's like it freezes you. It's almost like a Zen moment. The past is not there. The future's not there. It's just that moment. Eternity in that one little space. And that's how it was. It's like no past, no future. Just what? Wow. Like that. That's all. That's all.

[Nick Vander Kolk]

When you got the news that he was released. Do you remember where you were?

[Heather Brown]

Yeah, I heard from the investigator. He texted me he had retired. And he said, I guess who should get released. I was like, oh, my God. I laughed the vain side of me, or the. I don't know what you call it, but was like, I should have, you know, I should have gone. He wouldn't have been out. I don't know if that's arrogant to say that or think that, but I do know that it takes a long time to look into the backstory.

[Brandy Duvall]

Right.

[Heather Brown]

And not every prosecutor who goes to those hearings has the time to dig deep or has a Clint McCall to do some digging in their spare time, either. And I want to say, I told you so, you dumb big dummies. Like, come on, you can swear if

[Nick Vander Kolk]

you want, you know.

[Heather Brown]

No, I don't want to swear, but yeah, no, that's what I want to say. That's how I feel. Like, I told you so, you dumb my asses.

[Brandy Duvall]

Sa. Justice My sister,

[Nick Vander Kolk]

I need you this

[Brandy Duvall]

very hour Where I Peace, my sister,

[Heather Brown]

I need you this very hour.

[Brandy Duvall]

Every day is a child to walk through.

[Nick Vander Kolk]

That's it for this episode of Blood Memory. Stay tuned to the end for a sneak peek of the next installment. Music on this episode comes from Serepdi, Pierre Bastien and Michel Banabila. Interbellum Glitchbird Interspecifics Julian Moreno, Myrmosuelo Entranas, Minnie Companente, Isaac Soto, Alex Hentzi, Henrik Meyer, Cor Ward, Zaroshi Autisticae and Justin Varis, Orieta Krem and Salvaggia Keixiosis and Jennifer Castle. Check the show notes for the full playlist. Additional voices on this episode were provided by Katie Mingle, Betsy Corcoran, James Spring, Lewal Kowski, Nigel Poor and Samantha Harvey. The series producer of Blood Memory is Mira Kumar. Robin Amer is our managing editor. Additional reporting by Bryan Kranz and Anya Schulz, Fact checking by Nicole Pasulka and Visuals by Orla McCarty. Allison Herrera is our contributing editor. Love and radio is a labor of love and radio and made possible thanks to our members with extra special thanks to Ab Fab, Casey Jones Anderson, Mark Son of Don Kogo, Aaron Gogogo, Surface to Air Missile, Jackie Bouvier Kennedy Oliki Keith Licks My Banshee, Joe Versus the Volcano, Donyo Ali Memorigami, Chris Proof Ham, Bill Pointy Stick, Jason Viridescent. And. I'm nicholas sardine. Punch punch. Vander kolk. Thanks for listening.

[Brandy Duvall]

Where are you.

[Nick Vander Kolk]

Coming up on the next episode of Blood Memory.

[Michael Thompson]

Everything I talk about, whether it be the Hell's Angels, the case I testified in, what happened in prison, everything's documented. So anybody that wants to wait in, I welcome it. But if you're going to question the veracity or authenticity or credibility of any of it, then go do your homework. It's that simple.

[Heather Brown]

Hey, Nick, it's your favorite editor. You had asked me to record an update, to go through all the reporting our team has been doing. So here it is, coming to this

[Nick Vander Kolk]

feed next week or listen now by becoming a Love and Radio member.