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- [00:01]
A
This episode is brought to you by Redfin. You're listening to a podcast, which means you're probably multitasking, maybe even scrolling home listings on Redfin, saving homes without expecting to get them. But Redfin isn't just built for endless browsing. It's built to help you find and own a home with agents who close twice as many deals. When you find the one, you've got a real shot at getting it. Get started@redfin.com. own the dream.
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B
Tell me what you want to do. Tell me your intent.
- [00:33]
C
My intent?
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B
Yeah.
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C
My intent is to understand your life, understand your story, and understand how you got to the place that you are now. I've never met anyone like you. You think in ways that I've never been exposed to before. Really, my intent with this is. Is the truth.
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B
End of the day, what do you think the value of the truth is?
- [00:56]
C
I think that. I think the truth matters. I think, what is the reality of things? It matters, even if it's not always 100% obtainable. And this is a situation where people can't decide on the truth. For me, as a storyteller, as a documentarian, that's always going to be interesting to me, you know, trying to figure out what is actually going on.
- [01:16]
B
Yeah, it's like I tell people, do your homework. It's really that simple. Nothing that I speak about is vague or ambiguous as it relates to the facts. And by that, I mean it's all documented. You see, that's all they have to do is do their homework. I have a C file that is six boxes. Six boxes. Most C files, for an individual to spend as much time as I did in prison is one box. I have six boxes. And there's a reason for that. So everything I talk about, whether it be the Hell's Angels case I testified in, what happened in prison, everything's documented. So anybody that wants to weigh in, I welcome it. But if you're going to question the veracity or authenticity or credibility of any of it, then go do your homework. When you talk about the truth, I think what's critical in that understanding, particularly if you're going to present it as a construct of my life, is the reality, not the interpretation of that reality from other sources. Let the listener decide for themselves, this is my story. I'm telling it. You don't have to believe it. Truth of the matter is, you can't make this stuff up. You really can't.
- [02:54]
C
From Love and Radio, you're listening to Blood Memory. I'm Nick Van Der Kolk, this is episode eight, Habeas Corpus. I had a question for you.
- [03:07]
B
Okay.
- [03:08]
C
I don't know if you remember this, but in our conversation from a few years back, you had encouraged me to get your C file. We actually. We put in the request for it to CDCR and it was denied. And we tried to appeal it and they haven't responded to any follow up inquiries. But I was wondering, would you be comfortable signing off to release the C file?
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B
Sure, sure. I don't have problem with that.
- [03:43]
A
Hey, Nick, it's your favorite editor. You had asked me to record an update to go through all the reporting our team has been doing. So here it is.
- [03:52]
C
Chapter one. Robin.
- [03:55]
A
First, you may remember that Michael describes having lived for a time on an Indian reservation in California, specifically the biggest Pine Paiute reservation.
- [04:08]
B
My mother was attempting to raise a number of kids by herself, which is ultimately how I ended up on the reservation.
- [04:15]
A
That seems to be true. We found a letter that his mother sent to the parole board in 2011 that describes how she sent him to live there with relatives for a time. Then, when Michael describes the events that led up to him being arrested for this 1973 double homicide, he says that his sister Pat recorded a phone call with him that was taped by the District Attorney's office.
- [04:40]
B
She told the District Attorney she knew about these two bodies that were buried. And she called me on the phone and District Attorney's investigator was recording it.
- [04:49]
A
We attempted to talk to Michael's sister, who is still alive, but we didn't hear back from her. We did, however, find court records that described a series of phone calls that were taped by the Orange County DA's office and. And used as evidence in this trial. And according to court records, this included a call between Michael and his sister. Now, we found a transcript from the trial where the prosecutor says there's a tape of Michael admitting to being involved in the murders. We tried really hard to get these tapes ourselves, but unfortunately, the DA's office told us they don't have them anymore. And we found other records indicating that the Orange County Superior Court system either destroyed or discarded evidence from this trial, which included the tapes and the transcripts back in 2014. So we have Michael saying one thing about what's on these tapes and the prosecutor saying the opposite, essentially. But because we couldn't get the tapes ourselves, we can't say for sure what's in them. Then at one point, Michael told you that he smuggled weapons into prison during this ongoing gang war between the Aryan Brotherhood and the Black Guerrilla Family.
- [06:03]
B
I mean, you want to remember the opposition here. Their attorneys are smuggling guns in.
- [06:08]
A
There was a very prominent case back in 1971 where a lawyer named Stephen Bingham was accused of doing this. It's kind of a crazy story, actually. He, like, went on the lam in Canada and was a fugitive for 13 years. But it seems like way too much to go into right now. And anyway, the point is, although he was accused of doing this, he was ultimately acquitted. Michael did defect from the Aryan Brotherhood. We found an official prison document from 1983 that confirmed this. He did cooperate extensively with law enforcement and testified in at least five murder trials that we can find records for. And he really did do lectures for law enforcement about his time in the gang, including for classes of students who were studying to become police officers and whatnot. The 2015 attack where he says someone tried to assassinate him, that also appears to be true because the parole board discussed it it at his 2019 hearing. And then there's the story that Michael tells about working with members of the group Tribal Thumb to smuggle buck knives into prison.
- [07:31]
B
I had them construct these sheaths, purchase stainless steel knives that were folding. So you fold them, and then you put them in this sheath, and then you have to secrete them in a body cavity.
- [07:41]
A
So Tribal Thumb was a real group, but we cannot find evidence that. That they ever worked with the Aryan Brotherhood. However, we did find a number of documents where law enforcement officials describe the subject matter that he lectured on, and that included him lecturing on how to beat the metal detectors. So from these documents, it does seem to be true that Michael had figured out how to beat the metal detectors, at least well enough to demonstrate that for law enforcement during his lectures. After Michael signed up on the release of his c file, his prison records, the CDCR did send us some, but they didn't give us any records prior to 1990. Those older records are apparently housed in the California State Archives. However, according to an archivist I talked to there, under the state public records law, they cannot release those records for 75 years. So, like, for now, without those older records, we can't really clear up some of our questions about Michael's time in prison. For example, his prison fights being attacked in the chapel by the Nuestra Familia.
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B
They had knives taped into their hand.
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A
Fighting yogi panel, she said, so you
- [09:06]
B
go on in and you make yourself a knife, and I'll meet you out here in the morning.
- [09:09]
A
The guy who, like, butters himself up and slides through the bars, I'm gonna
- [09:14]
B
Push you back inside. And my suggestion to you is to
- [09:17]
A
stay inside the guy where he tattoos a circle around the guy's heart, lasting circle. Making bombs out of eight tracks and
- [09:26]
B
the shrapnel from that could be very damaging.
- [09:30]
A
Similarly, there are his allegations about how he was treated in prison, including the allegation that he was shot by prison guards 22 times and that he didn't always get the proper medical treatment afterwards. These are all stories we can't confirm without his older prison records. We also asked CDCR for comment about this stuff, but they did not respond with respect to Michael saying the Aryan Brotherhood was bribing and blackmailing prison officials. The CDCR didn't comment on this either. However, we found this declassified FBI document from 1982 that described how the Aryan Brotherhood was, quote, engaged in illegal activities, including violence, extortion or systemic public corruption. And that last one, systemic public corruption. In my experience, reporting on the FBI typically means bribing public officials. There are a lot of stories we can't corroborate because so many of the people in this story have since died. And that includes Michael's ex wives, Burdell Thompson and Pat Nunneley. Michael said that Pat Nunneley told him that she had breast cancer. We can't confirm that he said that. You know, the way he phrased it was that Pat Nunley worked as a of part prostitute. We can't confirm that. There are also people who appear to still be alive but haven't responded to our requests to interview them. For example, Berdell's son Craig, who Michael mentions in the story that he tells about the 1973 murders.
- [11:08]
B
I had started to tear down this pigsty with Burdell's son Craig. Mike Sesma drove in in a Cadillac and got out and said, stop what you're doing. And I went over to him and I said, why? And he said, well, because there's two bodies buried there.
- [11:25]
A
We tried to contact Craig, but all our letters to him bounced back and we were not able to reach him. That said, we could not find any evidence that this story was true. With respect to the story Michael tells about working with the National Geographic documentary
- [11:42]
B
team, their pitch was, look, Mike, this is about kids. This is about helping kids understand and we don't want them to go down this path. And this is about educating the public. And they said all the right words that resonated with me.
- [11:56]
A
We reached out to a woman named Kathleen Cromley, who was the executive director of this series, and she tried to put Us in touch with the producer of the episode, but ultimately she wrote us this email in July. She writes, quote, I reached out to my former colleague and we racked our brains for the name of the producer and came up empty. We also looked up the credits for a couple of the producers. We thought it might have been to no avail. As one who's been in your shoes, I wish I could have helped. Then there's Michael's bull riding career.
- [12:31]
B
I don't know if you're familiar with bull riding or how it occurs.
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C
Explain it.
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B
Okay. It's real simple. What they do is they put a cinch between his hindquarters and his ribcage. It's really right at the point of his scrotum. You set yourself on his back and it pulls right up into a scrotum and it's painful.
- [12:49]
A
Our fact checker Nicole looked into this and she found videos of present day bull riders addressing this.
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D
There's a big misconception that you actually
- [12:59]
A
tie up bulls testicles in order to make them butt.
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D
But let's be honest, if I tied
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A
yours, would you want to go anywhere?
- [13:05]
D
Probably not.
- [13:05]
A
This is the flank of the bull and as this comes up, it's nowhere near the bull's testicles. And finally, I want to talk about Michael's professed native identity. During Michael's parole hearings, Heather and Clint looked into his purported tribal affiliations.
- [13:30]
C
I asked this genealogist with the Bureau
- [13:32]
B
of Indian affairs, can you look through your records?
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C
And he says, there is nobody in
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D
his family tree that I can find with Native American blood.
- [13:44]
A
But if you recall, Michael counters that by saying, essentially, this is the way I was raised. These are my beliefs. Right. He describes being the pipe holder in prison, being gifted prayers and in other languages. So I think for this we need to get the perspective of someone who has a better understanding of these practices. And I know that was something that you were interested in too. So I reached out to the Indigenous Journalists association and they recommended this longtime public radio reporter named Alison Herrera. And she's been helping us the last few months and has some stuff to run by you. So I think you should just give her a call so. So that she can tell you about it herself.
- [14:25]
C
Love and Radio will return after these messages. Hey there, it's Nick. Did you know there's an online cannabis company that ships federally legal THC right to your door? And they found a way to combine THC with carefully selected functional ingredients to create gummies, baked goods, and flour for whatever type of buzz you'd want. I'm talking about mood.com they have an incredible line of cannabis gummies and you can get 20% off your first order@mood.com bestseller right now Sleepytime Advanced Gummies for a mind soothing calm at night. But they have a wide range of other products including Morning Delta 9 Gummies for an energizing focused mental boost and CBD Gummies for gentle relaxation without any psychoactive effects. Everything ships discreetly right to your door and every Mood product is backed by 100 day satisfaction guarantee. So head on over to mood.com find the functional gummy that matches exactly what you're looking for and let Mood help you discover your perfect mood. And don't forget to use promo code Loveradio when you check out to save 20% on your first order and let them know that we sent you. Try today@mood.com and use the promo code Loveradio. Thank you to Mood for supporting the podcast. Okay, back to the show. Chapter 2 Allison, I guess to start things off, can you introduce yourself?
- [15:56]
E
Yes, My name is Allison Herrera. I'm Holon Sulinen, and that is a tribe here in California in the Central Coast. And the area that my grandmother comes from or her family comes from is called Toro Creek, and it's in an area in the mountains, mountains between Atascadero and Morro Bay in California. I am the former Indigenous affairs reporter for kosu, which is an NPR affiliate station in Oklahoma. I've been covering Indigenous issues for about 10 years now, and I am a JSK Journalism Fellow at Stanford University.
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C
What was your relationship like with being a member of the Slim tribe?
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E
The Solanin are a federally unrecognized tribe. I do know that members of my family spoke Solanin. They also spoke Spanish. But a lot wasn't shared with me when I was growing up, and I think that that's out of a sense of one being ashamed and having experienced so much racism in this state. You know, it was encouraged during the days of the Gold Rush to kill California Indians for our land and for our resources, and that's something that Native people in this state are still fighting for.
- [17:08]
C
I know you've been calling a lot of folks to check in on some of the claims that have been made by Michael. Could you maybe give me sort of a rundown of what you've discovered and who you've spoken with?
- [17:17]
E
Well, I'm just going to start out by saying I think there was a hesitancy to comment because of the highly personal and protected nature of people who practice Their native religion. It's not something for outsiders, something that I heard from the people I spoke with, that Michael's story sounds very much like a sham, like. Like a fraud. And for myself and the people that I've spoken with, it makes me very angry because many of us, myself included, like I just was talking to you, we've lost touch with our cultural ways because of colonialism, because of boarding schools, and because of the way in which the federal government and white society has separated us from our land and our language and our culture or the historical trauma that we've dealt with. And so that's why hearing Michael's claims and him not being able to back those things up is so offensive to the people I spoke with. They've said that it's exploitation for his own benefit. I don't want to put myself in a position to validate his claims. And the other people I spoke with weren't either. I think it's important for the listener to understand. Absolutely. You can be interested in Native American spirituality. You can be interested in studying that and making that a part of your life. But there's a clear delineation between claiming that you are this person and actually being this person and having Native ancestry and being raised in that way. Michael is trying to, like, walk this line between saying, well, I don't care about these things, but I was raised this way, and therefore that makes me Native. And I'm sorry, but that's not how it goes. That's not what makes you a Native person.
- [19:06]
C
So according to Michael, a lot of his spiritual practices he learned from this guy, Jack Martin, also known as Walksontop, who he says was part Nez Perce. I know you've been making some phone calls trying to find out more information about Jack Martin. What were you able to discover?
- [19:24]
E
I reached out to someone who handles enrollment with the Nez Perce Tribal Nation, and they told me no one with the name of Jack Martin was able to ever enrolled in the tribe. And so, just to cover my basis, I also asked about the name Jonathan Martin, as Jack can be like a nickname for John or Jonathan. But we found no one with that name from the time Michael said Walks on Top or Jack Martin was alive.
- [19:48]
C
After Heather and Clint showed that he has no official connection to any Native tribe, he then came back and said,
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B
I'm not interested in being Indian. Not ever. Not now. I'm a human being, and that's what I was taught to be. People get upset over that when I say that, particularly other Natives. But I Was taught that our way of life is about our humanity. And from the time that I was a child, I practiced that. It's a culture. It's a way of life.
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C
I imagine a lot of non Native people listening to that might think, oh, yeah, that kind of makes sense. And I'm just curious listening to that explanation, like, how did it strike you?
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E
It just proved what I have been thinking all along, that he isn't a Native person. Being raised Native, as he says, doesn't make you a Native person, doesn't make you Native unless you can prove you are who you say you are. You can't just be like Nick Van Der Kolk. Oh, yeah, Nick, you know, we really like you. You're gonna be a part of our tribe. You have to have some family connection. You have to some person who is linked to that tribe, who shares that language, that culture, that knowledge, that land base. Those are the things that connect us. Every tribe has their own requirements for what it means to be a citizen of that tribe. Some tribes have a blood quantum requirement. Some people, you know, prove that they're a tribal citizen through lineal descendancy. Maybe that's maternal or paternal sometimes, like within the Cherokee Nation. I know, for example, you can trace your ancestor back to somebody who's on the Dawes rolls. I will say, you know, when he made that comment about his grandmother's dawes rolls number, the Dawes rolls was between 1898 and 1907, and 1914 was the last time that the Dawes rolls was open for anybody to be enrolled. Hold on it. And they were primarily for the five tribes that were forcibly removed from the Southeast to what was known as Indian Territory, to which is now known as Oklahoma.
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C
I don't think those are any of the tribes that he mentioned. Right.
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E
He's not. He doesn't claim Cherokee, Chickasaw, Choctaw, Seminole, and Muskogee Creek. He doesn't claim to be any of those things.
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C
So the whole Dawes thing is like. It's a red herring, basically.
- [22:13]
E
It's not accurate. He threw out something that was inaccurate.
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A
And hold all your friends up your Indian play.
- [22:21]
E
Let's just look at the example of Buffy Saint Marie. Buffy Saint Marie was a really and still is a really famous singer songwriter starting in the 1960s. She claimed to be first nations from Canada and earned a lot of respect for her activism and putting her voice to these very real Native causes. Indians still exist. We're not dead and stuffed in some museum alongside the dinosaurs.
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A
We are human here among you Learning
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E
and Teaching every day. There was a big investigation into it that was published on the cbc, that's the public radio in Canada, about her heritage.
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A
Buffy was not adopted.
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F
She was a child of my grandfather's and my grandmother's.
- [23:05]
A
I don't know how or when she
- [23:07]
G
started to create her story, but at
- [23:10]
A
this point she's just raised in, in a Caucasian family.
- [23:14]
C
You see a lot of parallels between her situation and Michael's.
- [23:17]
E
I do. He's exploiting these very real discussions and complexities for his own self serving purpose. I mentioned at the top of our conversation that I cover Indigenous communities. Right. I belong to the Indigenous Journalist association, or ija. And as part of iha, one of the things that we do is we offer guidance to non Native outlets and journalists who want to report on Indigenous communities respectfully and in a good way. So one of the things is a bingo card. On this bingo card there are these stereotypes and tropes that people think of when they think of Native people. Drumming, spirituality, diabetes, poverty. And when I listen to Michael's story, it's like I just check off everything on the bingo card. Like the story he tells about, quote, shape shifting into bear.
- [24:18]
B
That's how I moved amongst them. Like a grizzly bear snapping bones.
- [24:22]
E
When I was listening to that episode, I was like, what the fuck? It reminds me of an episode of the X Files I saw back in the 1990s.
- [24:31]
C
For centuries, Indians have believed in a creature that was half man, have wolf.
- [24:35]
E
It sounded totally made up to me. I'm trying to think of how to say this delicately.
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C
Don't say it delicately.
- [24:43]
E
Don't claim to be a Native person when you're not. It's really damaging. It's just within the last 50 years that native communities have been able to write their own constitutions, have been able to resurrect and speak their language, and have that be supported rather than discouraged. You know, we're still living in a lifetime. When boarding school survivors talk about that experience of being ripped away from their families and communities and forced to assimilate. And so when somebody comes in and says all of these things about being Native when they are not and not having the proof to back it up and making claims that he is a spiritual person, that is so offensive to the people who have experienced the generational trauma of having gone to boarding school, of not being able to practice their religion. When it comes to identifying as a Native person, that has real world consequences for the people who are living in Native communities today who are thriving, sometimes struggling and doing everything in between who are working to preserve our rights and working to preserve for the next generation.
- [26:14]
C
Love and Radio will return after these messages.
- [26:20]
A
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E
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A
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- [26:48]
E
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- [26:50]
A
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- [26:55]
E
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- [27:16]
A
Experian. Hey, Nick, it's Robin. So I've got a few more reporting items I want to put out there, and they all have to do with the 1973 murders of Butch Nunley and Rue Steele. This is the double homicide that sent Michael to prison.
- [27:35]
C
Chapter three, 1973.
- [27:38]
A
Michael was accused of fabricating a kidnapping plot so that he could orchestrate the murders and run away with Butch Nunley's wife, Pat Nunley. Now, he told you that he overheard John Solis and Mike Sesma describing Pat Nunneley as, quote, a loose end and implying that they might need to kill her, too. Obviously, the only people who could corroborate that story would be Solis and Sesma. Solis has since died, and Sesma didn't respond to us. But in all the documents we found, we have not found anything that would back up this claim of Michael's. Meanwhile, this is how Michael described his relationship with Pat Nunley to you.
- [28:20]
C
Was there any piece of you that was hoping that maybe it could blossom into a relationship?
- [28:24]
B
No. You know, once I learned that she had breast cancer and she was of the opinion she was going to die, and I went to adopt her kids. And not because I was in love with her or, you know, wanted her in any capacity. You know, my idea was to help her, and that's exactly what I was doing.
- [28:41]
A
So I found this one article from the Los Angeles Times about the trial that described how Michael admitted to lying under oath. He admitted that he hadn't told Pat Nunley that her husband Butch had been murdered, and he explained why.
- [28:58]
D
He said he lied because he didn't want his wife to know of his knowledge and because he thought the truth would not come out.
- [29:05]
C
Asked by the deputy district attorney if
- [29:07]
D
he lied because he feared his wife would think he was more involved, Thompson replied, our love was much stronger than that.
- [29:18]
A
Reading this raised a lot of questions about the way that Michael had characterized his relationship to you. So I asked our reporter Brian to look into this more, and he was able to get transcripts of testimony given during the preliminary hearing at the 1975 trial. Michael's first wife, Berdelt Thompson, testified at that hearing about a meeting she had with Pat Nunneley before the murders occurred. Prosecutor Robert Chatterton.
- [29:47]
D
Did you meet with Pat Nunley that day?
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F
Berdell Thompson?
- [29:50]
G
Yes.
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D
And did you and she go someplace together?
- [29:53]
A
Yes. Burdell says that Pat Nunley drove her over to her sister's house, and during that drive, Burdell noticed that Pat was wearing a bracelet that Burdell said belonged to her.
- [30:05]
D
When had been the last time you had seen that bracelet?
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G
I'd given it to Mike the morning he went to Boston.
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D
And why did you give the bracelet to Mike Thompson before he went to Boston?
- [30:14]
G
Well, we were thinking about getting back together, and he wanted to wear it.
- [30:18]
D
Did he ever discuss with you what had happened to the bracelet that you had given him that he wore into Boston?
- [30:24]
G
Yes, he said he'd left it in Boston.
- [30:26]
A
According to Burdell's testimony and news reports from the trial, Michael had gone on this trip to Boston with Butch Nunneley to protect the marijuana shipment that Butch was transporting for John Solis. A news report said that Pat Nunley had been on this trip, too. Burdell says that when she realized Pat Nunneley was wearing her bracelet, she confronted her about it.
- [30:54]
G
I asked her where she'd gotten it, and she said that her husband had given it to her as a present, and I told her it belonged to me. She said, well, she was going to have to wait and ask him about it. When she talked to him, I explained a little bit about the bracelet and told her that if she looked on the inside that there were some marks to show that it had been handmade. And when she took it off her wrist, I took it away from her. She wanted it back, and I told her, no, it was mine and I was keeping it.
- [31:26]
A
Burdell says that a few months after that, Michael left her for patent on Lee. Now, Michael told you that although Burdell had testified against him, she later recanted her testimony.
- [31:47]
B
When asked why she was recanted it, she said because she'd been threatened. That they told her that if she didn't, they'd take her son. And that was her number one trauma.
- [31:55]
A
We found a letter from 2011 that Burdell submitted to the parole board on Michael's behalf.
- [32:02]
G
Michael is innocent of the murders of Butch Nunley and Rue Steele. After Nunley and Steele were murdered, Mike Cessma confessed to me that he'd murdered both of them. I asked Cesma if Michael was involved. He said no. He said something like, Michael was too much of a coward to kill anybody. When he told me this, Sesma was talking in a bragging way. Police showed up at my door late at night and took me to the station, where detectives questioned me for many hours. This happened over and over. The DA told me that I'd go to prison and lose the custody of my son if I did not help the prosecution make their case. I was willing to testify against Cessma because I knew he was guilty of murdering Nunley and Steele. But I also told both the police and the DA that Michael was innocent.
- [33:03]
A
Our reporter Brian asked the Orange County DA's office about Burdell's claims that the DA pressured her into testifying against Michael and threatened to take away her son if she didn't. The DA's office didn't answer our questions, and we have not been able to corroborate Burdell's story. For what it's worth, when I first read Burdell's letter, it struck me that although she does broadly recant, she really doesn't revisit any of the specific claims that she made in her testimony, like the story about Pat Nunley and the bracelet, for example. But back to Pat Nunley. Remember Michael told you that he convinced her to leave Southern California and go with him to Oregon. And they took with them Pat's two young children, Sean and Tiffany. You asked Michael about this.
- [33:54]
C
What was your relationship like with her kids? Like, did you get along?
- [33:57]
B
Yeah, it was a good relationship. It was just a matter of caring for them. You know, they weren't used to being out on a lake, isolated like that. It wasn't a lot for them to do. So whenever I had took her to the hospital and had the drop with my mother, I think they enjoyed that. But Tiffany came to my parole hearing
- [34:15]
A
now, we found the parole board testimony that Michael was referring to. This was in 2019. Michael had just made a case for why he should be released. Then Tiffany told the board how she felt about Michael maybe getting out.
- [34:33]
F
My name's Tiffany Nunley and I'm Vadra Butch Nunley's daughter and have been Mike Thompson's stepdaughter. I had it all figured out until just a few minutes ago. I'm sorry. I'm just nervous. I would be lying if I didn't say I believe in reform. I believe you can do something terrible in life. And that in time, by the grace of God, you figure out how to come to terms with that. I get that. But there's so many things that I've kept track of over the years with you. And I've noticed the story slowly changes. And I have a problem with that. My mom was absolutely, positively, probably one of the most gorgeous women I've ever seen. Seen in my life. Right? Yeah. And it makes me wonder if her own beauty was a part of what caused all this. You guys told me you were my dad. I didn't even know I had a different dad till I was in sixth grade. And I came home and they introduced me to my grandparents. I had no idea. My mother told me my middle name was Lynn, after yours. I had no idea. My mom, all she cared about was trying to protect you. My mom spent my dad's entire life insurance payout on your defense. And she committed herself to you. And yet what happened to her? Are you even fucking divorced? Cuz I don't remember. My mom died with the last name Thompson. Do you know what that did to her entire life? Nobody ever wanted to be around her. She had no family. Her family never ever had anything to do with her again. She was absolutely alienated from everything you sat there and said. When you started helping law enforcement with everything, how you were worried about your family. Well, you weren't worried about this family. We spent 13 years visiting you. I made necklaces at San Quentin. I went to the rodeo at Tracy. We went to the Oakland Circus at Folsom. I get really angry and jealous. You've got these educational degrees. I have nothing. I don't have anything but a messed up family. I got stuck with her for 20 something years while she was a heroin addict. I've been traded to connections I've lived with no running water and electricity in the middle of LA. My mom died at 50, thank God, because it was like a blessing. To be honest with you. She died absolutely crippled. And just horrifically, heroin just ate her away. She had nothing, absolutely nothing whatsoever. She didn't even have dignity. For the longest time, I had never come to these parole hearings because I can't deal with it all. But I needed to get it out because I don't understand it. I do believe there's reform and I believe that people can, you know, change. I really do. I don't know what the right answer is with this. The board will make its decision and I will be supportive of whatever that is because I don't believe all this is the exact right thing either. But it's what we have now.
- [38:19]
B
The reason she came to the board hearing is that she wanted me to know that whether I was involved or not involved, she forgave me and she asked the board to release me.
- [38:26]
A
Me.
- [38:28]
B
Which I thought was courageous of her.
- [38:50]
C
Love and radio will be return after these messages.
- [38:57]
D
Your little one grew three inches overnight.
- [38:59]
C
Adorable.
- [39:00]
D
Also expensive.
- [39:03]
C
Sell their pint sized pieces on Depop
- [39:05]
D
and list them in minutes with no
- [39:06]
C
selling fees because somewhere a dad refuses to pay full price for the clothes his kids will outgrow tomorrow. And he's ready to buy your son's
- [39:14]
D
entire wardrobe right now.
- [39:16]
C
Consider your future growth expert budget secured. Start selling on Depop where taste recognizes taste. Payment processing fees and boosting fees still apply. See website for details.
- [39:28]
D
Marvel Television's Wonder man, an eight episode series now streaming on Disney plus a superhero remake. Not exactly what we'd expect from an Oscar winning director.
- [39:37]
B
Action Simon Williams audition for Wonder Man.
- [39:41]
C
I'm gonna need you to sign this. Assuming you don't have superpowers.
- [39:47]
B
I'll never work again.
- [39:48]
C
If anyone found out, my lips are sealed. Marvel Television's Wonder man all eight episodes
- [39:55]
D
now streaming only on Disney.
- [39:57]
A
Hey Nick, I just talked to Brian, our court reporter and he got some records back related to the Curtis Price case. This is the case that made Michael defect from the Aryan Brotherhood. And it sounds like Brian found some really interesting stuff. So I think you should just go ahead and call him so that you can hear from him directly. Okay, bye.
- [40:20]
C
Chapter 4 Brian, what were you actually looking for in the Curtis Price case?
- [40:26]
D
Well, as I understand it, this was just a really big turning point for Michael and his life. Leaving the Aryan Brotherhood and then deciding to not just leave but to testify against members. So I just wanted to see what was out there in the official record. I'm a documents person, so I want to see the actual paperwork, I want to see the charging documents, I want to see where people's names come Up.
- [40:46]
C
Where did you end up going?
- [40:49]
D
I actually ended up at the State Archives. It's May 6, 2025. This is Brian Kranz. I'm in downtown Sacramento at the California Museum, which is on the fourth floor is also where the house California Archives, where Curtis Price's file had been archived. I guess for me personally in my career, going to the state archives to look up a capital murder case, kind of a geek level achievement in terms of document research.
- [41:25]
C
What'd you find when you got there?
- [41:27]
D
So I went in there, and they're even more particular about documents than I am. I couldn't even take a pen into the room. They're like, here's your little wooden cubby. Go put all of your things in there. Take nothing to the table. Unfortunately, I could not record audio in that room because there are other people around me that are doing kind of like sensitive work. So I get that. And they basically said, here's your cart. And it was just all these file folders, and it was all just from the Curtis Price case. And as I'm flipping through the documents, I finally found it.
- [41:57]
H
A petition for the writ of habeas corpus in the case of Curtis F. Price filed by Karen S. Sorenson, attorney at law, on June 23.
- [42:05]
C
What is a writ of habeas corpus?
- [42:07]
D
A writ of habeas corpus is a legal document that says, hey, I'm being held illegally. I demand to go before a judge. And habeas corpus means essentially in Latin, produce the body. You typically do this when all other typical appeals are exhausted. Thankfully, our court system has a lot of ways where people can say, hey, you got it wrong. Can I at least get a do over? So Curtis Price went to trial in 1985. A jury ultimately found him guilty and sentenced him to death. This generates an automatic appeal, and he lost that appeal. But then you still have rights underneath the federal system. So in 94, a judge appointed a lawyer named Karen Sorenson to represent him. She's the one who filed all this.
- [42:49]
H
From the outset, Mr. Price has consistently maintained that he is not guilty of either murder. There was no physical evidence that linked Curtis Price to either murder. His fingerprints were not found at either murder scene. There were no eyewitnesses to either murder.
- [43:03]
C
And I should jump in here and say, she is still alive. And you did reach out to her to see if she would be up for an interview, but she ultimately declined.
- [43:12]
D
Yeah, but the document that she put together is pretty remarkable.
- [43:17]
H
The number of court records we obtained, reviewed and indexed for this case is extraordinary. This is a case made up of over 150, 50,000 pages of relevant documents.
- [43:27]
C
So what's in this document?
- [43:28]
D
She unearthed new evidence not presented at trial. She also points out that the trial primarily relied upon Michael's testimony, backed up by two other people, Clifford Smith and Janet Meyers.
- [43:39]
C
And who are Clifford Smith and Janet Meyers?
- [43:42]
D
Clifford Smith was a former Aryan Brotherhood member.
- [43:45]
H
Clifford Smith was Michael Thompson's closest ally and in prison crime partner. One fellow in a informant described them as being, quote, tight as two fat men in a telephone booth. During his preliminary testimony, Clifford Smith said of his relationship with Thompson, quote, me and him was in a circle. He was the leader, you know, because he was the one that come up with all the bright ideas and I was his yes man.
- [44:08]
C
And Janet Myers?
- [44:09]
D
Janet Myers was a runner for the Aryan Brotherhood. And then eventually Michael convinced both her and Clifford Smith to defect the from the Aryan Brotherhood and testify in the Curtis Price trial.
- [44:19]
C
And you also convinced Clifford to testify against Curtis as well?
- [44:22]
B
I did, yes.
- [44:24]
C
What did you tell him?
- [44:25]
B
It goes hand in hand with having known Clifford pretty well as well as his mother and his grandmother, that this course of action was not something that neither he or I signed up for in becoming members of the Aryan Brotherhood. You know, the idea of a head up, man on man, which he and I had engaged in many times together, is different from imposing violence upon a person that knows nothing about the rules, is not a part of the game and is innocent. That is contrary to the code that we were professing to live by as warriors. The ultimate responsibility of a warrior is to protect the elderly and the children and the innocent.
- [45:09]
C
I mean, obviously he was receptive to it because in the end he did end up testifying.
- [45:13]
B
Yeah, he was. I mean he's, that's actually the way he was raised.
- [45:17]
C
And what about his girlfriend, Janet Myers?
- [45:20]
B
She eventually testified against Curtis Price. At my encouragement, I met with her at a staging facility. The LA sheriffs took me out to see her and I was able to convince her to cooperate with him.
- [45:32]
C
Can you tell me the story? Like what do you actually say to her?
- [45:35]
B
Well, I just essentially told her that what had happened was not in keeping with who I knew her to be and that she was complicit in this just as I was for not taking appropriate measures to prevent it. That the course of her assisting Curtis Price, that Elizabeth Hickey was bludgeoned to death by Curtis Price, I mean it was just like this ripple effect. Her problem was that she was afraid. So it was just a matter of talking with her authentically and sincerely about loss of life and the ramifications of that. My concern was that this had become a new policy and that other people would suffer as Richard Barnes had suffered at the hands of the Aryan Brotherhood if this were allowed to continue. So that this represented an opportunity to, if not stop it completely, to curtail it. And that was important.
- [46:35]
D
Michael told you that he defected and testified in this trial because it was the right thing to do.
- [46:39]
B
I didn't receive anything for anything I've ever done. I was in a hard time, you see, There was no special treatment. There was no special housing. There was no time off my sentence.
- [46:51]
D
Sorenson Curtis Price's defense attorney, says it's not true. She says Michael got something in exchange for his testimony and that he lied about it to the jury. To prove this, Sorensen included a sworn declaration by a woman named Patricia Ann Porter.
- [47:06]
I
I, Patricia Ann Porter, make the following declaration. I met Michael Lynn Thompson in early 1984. I met him at the Glenside City Jail, where I was working as a jailer. He was taken to the LA hall of Justice jail in downtown Los Angeles. While Mr. Thompson was in there, I had an extended relationship with him lasting over two years. He was kept in a unit by himself in a part of the jail that I'm not sure very many people even knew existed. When I visited Mr. Thompson, I would tell the officers on duty that I was there to go to the 13th floor. I was never asked to sign in or show identification, and I would was never searched, nor was anything I was carrying with me. Instead, one of four male guards would come down and get me and escort me directly to Mr. Thompson's unit. He had two cells where he lived and went about his business. One cell was where he had his bed and toilet. The adjoining cell was basically Mr. Thompson's office and living space. In this cell, he had his own refrigerator, a file cabinet, a desk, radio, cassette player, coffee maker, television, vcr, books, a typewriter, and eventually a computer. It was almost like he had his own apartment up there. Often When I visited Mr. Thompson, I brought food. This included special snacks such as frozen yogurt and Perrier water in glass containers. I would use one of those two wheeled shopping carts to take groceries to his cell. One time, I took an entire Thanksgiving dinner to him. The meal included turkey, dressing, potatoes, cranberry sauce, all the traditional Thanksgiving Day foods. I even brought in a large kitchen knife to carve up the turkey. We had the entire dinner in his unit and the guard on duty that Day ate the meal with us. I was always a little worried bringing the above items to him, but he assured me it was all right. He obviously had worked this out with jail officials. Since I was never stopped or even asked what I was bringing in with me during my visits, Mr. Thompson and I were left to ourselves. Even though we were not married, we had regular conjugal visits. As a former jailer, I knew this kind of thing was normally forbidden. Mr. Thompson would just hang up a sheet in the doorway of his room where his bunk was so we would have privacy. To this day, I am amazed that Mr. Thompson was afforded the kind of privileges he was allowed as an inmate at the jail.
- [49:37]
C
How unusual is it for an inmate to to be getting these kinds of perks when they're cooperating with law enforcement?
- [49:43]
D
According to Sorensen and the experts she spoke to, they said they've never heard of this level of preferential treatment. Sorensen also accused Michael of lying about getting these privileges.
- [49:53]
H
The jurors who convicted Curtis Price and sentenced him to death never heard anything about Thompson's well padded lifestyle in the Los Angeles County Jail or about his unusual activities there.
- [50:04]
D
She cites Michael trial testimony. I'm quoting now. The prosecutor asked him, is protective custody a better place to be than the regular general population? Thompson responded no. The prosecutor asked again, I mean they have nicer rooms, better TVs, anything like that. Thompson again says no.
- [50:27]
C
So Sorenson is accusing Michael of lying to the jury about the perks that he got. Does she accuse him of lying about anything else?
- [50:34]
D
Yes. Her most serious accusation is that Michael falsely accused Curtis Price of the murders and that Clifford Smith and Janet Meyers helped him do it. First off, she claims that Michael didn't have as much first hand knowledge of the murders as he says he did, but rather he'd get information from law enforcement and then kind of mix it in with his own testimony as if Price confessed it to him.
- [50:57]
H
A good example of this is the caliber of weapon used in the Barnes murder. Thompson had to be told the caliber of weapon by law enforcement during an initial briefing. Then after receiving that information, Thompson wove it into his own accounts as if it were something he had known all along.
- [51:14]
D
She makes a similar claim about Clifford Smith.
- [51:16]
H
He had read Thompson's preliminary testimony. He had also been writing and conferring with Curtis Price's defense attorneys about the prosecution's evidence. He therefore knew in advance what he had to say to corroborate the testimony of his former girlfriend Janet Myers and his close ally Michael Thompson. And he did so.
- [51:37]
D
The next piece of evidence Sorensen cites is about a visit that Janet Meyers said she made to Clifford Smith while he was in prison. She testified that she visited him to let him know the murders had been carried out earlier that day. But Smith's visitor's log shows Myers actually didn't visit him on the date she claimed.
- [51:55]
H
Exhibit 40 contains 12 notations of visits by Janet Myers to Clifford Smith in the first half of 1983. None of those visits were on the date Clifford and Janet alleged, during which Janet allegedly conveyed the message from Curtis Price. These suppressed records thus show that Janet Myers testimony about the alleged visit and about conveying a message from Curtis Price to Smith during that visit was false.
- [52:21]
D
When Sorensen says these records were suppressed, what that means is, is that they were hidden from the defense and the jury.
- [52:27]
H
Those records were not produced by either the prosecution or the California Department of Corrections, despite specific requests by the defense for those documents.
- [52:37]
D
And finally, Sorensen says that Michael forged a key piece of evidence using P.
- [52:43]
H
Thompson testified that in August 1983, he received a letter from Price containing a hidden message written in urine. The text of the message read, quote, need contact. Witness problem could walk. Thompson called this a, quote, hit or miss message. The contents of the message suggested that Curtis Price wanted to do away with some witnesses so that he would walk away a free man.
- [53:09]
D
So we actually got a copy of the letter. Can you see it?
- [53:11]
C
Yes. Yeah. So this is A letter dated August 24, 1983, addressed to Michael from Kurt. Just received yours of the 19th. And as always, it's good to hear from you. Okay. I just wanted to be sure I was doing the right thing by keeping the picture you sent. They are good ones. I hear you. I see that again for sure. Smiley face. Wow. That's a very cute smiley face. So it's pretty, you know, prosaic letter between sort of two friends catching up. And then down at the bottom in the margins, there is, in mostly capital letters, there's a message that says, need contact. Witness problem could walk. Why does Sorensen think that this was a forgery?
- [54:01]
D
Sorensen doesn't doubt that Curtis Price wrote and signed the part of the letter in regular ink.
- [54:07]
H
But she says he did not write the hit or miss message along the border of the letter and was not involved in any way in the preparation of the message or in sending it. The message was placed on the border of the letter by someone else after it had left Curtis Price's possession and control.
- [54:23]
D
Sorensen says the timing here is absolutely crucial. Michael testified that he defected from the Aryan Brotherhood just weeks after he got this letter. But Sorensen says Michael basically sat on the letter.
- [54:36]
H
Thompson's omission of any mention of the alleged hit or miss message in the four or five interviews Thompson had with law enforcement within days of the time he allegedly discovered the message should have put the prosecution on notice that something was fishy.
- [54:53]
C
So what did the prosecutors say in response to all this?
- [54:55]
D
Prosecutors didn't actually address the claims of new evidence, the potential forged letter, or the visitor log. They just called it, and I'm quoting now, legally and factually insignificant. As far as the perks that Michael got and the accusation that he lied about him, the prosecutor just dismissed it as irrelevant.
- [55:14]
C
The entire premise of Curtis Price's argument is that if the jury had known Michael Thompson was receiving favorable treatment in the Los Angeles County Jail, it would have had reason to believe his testimony was motivated by such treatment and therefore his testimony in the case would have been impeached. However, any such impeachment would have been insignificant compared to the mountain of impeachment evidence that actually was induced against Thompson at Curtis Price's trial. One of the very few facts emphatically agreed to by both sides was that the credibility of Thompson, Clifford Smith and Janet Meyers was virtually nil. Thompson admitted to numerous premeditated and cold blooded murders, to numerous instances of perjury, to a massive ability to manipulate the criminal justice system to his own ends, to monumental treachery against his current and former colleagues, which was additionally marked by an utter lack of conscience, as well as Thompson continuing motivation to lie against Aryan Brotherhood gang members so as to please the authorities.
- [56:17]
D
In other words, prosecutors say the jury knew Michael wasn't trustworthy. So even if they had known about all this cushy treatment he received in LA county, they still would have found Curtis Price guilty. I also want to mention that we reached out to the lead prosecutor in the case. He didn't respond. Clifford Smith and Janet Meyers have both since died. But I did find legal records from 2004 that showed Clifford Smith maintained that he told the truth against Curtis Price long after his trial ended.
- [56:49]
C
What was the final outcome after all this legal back and forth for Curtis Price?
- [56:53]
D
All the defense efforts were unsuccessful. Curtis Price remained on death row for more than two decades after that and he died in prison in 2021 of natural causes.
- [57:16]
B
I think the best way to tell a story is go back to the functional reality as opposed to the ideal reality that we want it to be. And that can be difficult. It's not just a question of telling the truth because what you're expressing you believe to be the truth. But oftentimes as you delve into that, you mine elements of it that you may have suppressed for whatever reason didn't look at closely because it's too painful and you know the issue is not the truth. The issue is the reality of the truth. Sam.
- [58:45]
A
La.
- [59:09]
B
Ram. My gre.
- [60:15]
C
That's it for this episode of Blood Memory. Stay tuned to the end for a sneak peek of the next installment. Music on this episode comes from Sarepti Glitchbird, Kishosis, Alex Henson, Las Olas Isaac Soto, Matt Amen, Aud New Henrik Meyer Kord Strange Bird Sounds Distant fires Burning Umano Interbellum Will Bolton and Rune check the show notes for the full playlist. Additional voices on this episode were provided by Bill Rolfing, Roman Mars, Alice Lyons, Valinda Lee, Ellen Horne and Brian Reed. The series producer of Blood Memory is Meera Kumar. Robin Amer is our managing editor. Additional reporting by Bryan Kranz and Anya Schulz, fact checking by Nicole Pasulka and Visuals by Orla McCarty. Allison Herrera is our contributing editor. Love and radio is a labor of love and radio and made possible thanks to our members with extra special thanks to Abbey Frozen Foods Ltd. Casey Louie Anderson, Marky Marco the Funky Bunch. Go Aaron. Go, go, go, go. Huffer Nutter, I know your secret. Jackie Beef MC Angry Joey. What made them want to come and blow your head away? Damn. Paul Manro, Harry Ali Mothra, Chrissy, Wake up. William Halberd, Jason Voorhees. Alex Gold's on the Mark. Audrey's gaff is a Kip and I am Nicholas Sardine Punch Punch Vendor. Kolk. Thanks for listening it,
- [62:08]
A
Sam, Wait.
- [63:59]
C
Coming up on the next episode of Blood Memory.
- [64:02]
E
He's like a Rorschach blot.
- [64:03]
I
I'm very comfortable with him.
- [64:05]
E
People see what they want to see.
- [64:07]
D
There's a special feeling I got about
- [64:09]
E
this guy and it has more to do with that person who's the viewer, than it has to do with Michael. Good people see goodness.
- [64:18]
D
We showed empathy and all this stuff that was way different than what I've been told.
- [64:24]
E
Haters see something else.
- [64:26]
B
My mom made a statement to me before she passed away. She had told me, eric, you're kind of a borderline con person most of
- [64:33]
C
your life too, but you got conned
- [64:36]
B
by a con man.
- [64:38]
C
Coming next week. We're available right now for 11 radio members.
- [64:45]
D
Every day the world gets a little weirder and a lot more awesome. Cool Stuff Daily takes a look at everything from mining in space to the latest in the fight against cancer to how AI is basically changing everything. It's all the cool stuff you didn't know you needed to know. Join us for Cool Stuff Daily as we take a quick look at science tech and the. Wait, wait.
- [65:09]
G
What?
- [65:09]
D
Stories that make you sound way smarter at dinner. Subscribe to Cool Stuff Daily now because the future's happening fast and it's way too fun to miss.