Blood Memory #09: The Outside World

Summary

Podcast Summary: Love and Radio – Blood Memory, Episode 09: The Outside World Air date: March 30, 2026
Host: Nick van der Kolk | Produced by Love and Radio & Daylight Media

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Overview

In this penultimate episode of "Blood Memory," host Nick van der Kolk explores life after prison for Michael Thompson—a former Aryan Brotherhood leader turned self-proclaimed redemption story—and those orbiting his post-incarceration world. The episode intimately traces Michael’s complex relationships, his struggles (and failures) to re-enter society, his fraught business venture with Eric Hutchins, and the unraveling of a major fraud case that casts doubt on his claims of transformation. Through extensive interviews with Michael, his partner Ariel, friends, and former associates, listeners are prompted to ask where redemption ends and self-delusion or manipulation begins.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Michael’s Release & Adjustment to Freedom

• Experience of Release: After 45 years, the sensation of freedom is overwhelming and disorienting.

  • Michael describes his first steps outside prison: “For the first time, when they took me out to put me in that van, they didn’t put leg shackles… I thought, ‘Oh, this is weird’... Ariel was there, and we just stood there for a while holding each other… I said, ‘Let’s go put some food in our belly.’” (02:25)

• First Encounters:

  • Ariel teases the shock of seeing Michael’s "awful" transitional clothes, reinforcing the strangeness of adjusting to a world outside. (03:58)

• Culture Shock & Technology:

  • Michael describes the world as bizarrely alien: “When I went to prison, I still used a rotary phone. Suddenly I found myself with a smartphone in my hands and not even knowing how to make a phone call.” (05:53)

  • On encountering modern attitudes: “Amazingly rude, narcissistic, self-centered, a lack of care… I was shocked. I actually anticipated coming out into an environment that was more wholesome.” (06:44)

• Compassion and Naiveté:

  • Ariel recounts Michael giving away his only jacket to a stranger: “He’s like that. He’s just not a skeptical person.” (07:25)
  • She reflects on his lack of suspicion—partly shaped by prison survival rules and his childhood where questioning authority was discouraged. (08:09)

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2. Forming New Relationships: Friends Old and New

• Developing Trust Outside Prison:
  • Michael’s closest new friend is Ken, his landlord: “Ken’s a man that I would ride the river with… there isn’t anything I can’t talk about with him.” (12:20)
  • Ken returns the sentiment: “Because this man, you know, he walks with his head up high, man. He’s a man, you know? You knew that right off the get. There’s no BS with this guy.” (12:54)
• Supportive Neighbor:
  • Annie, a neighbor, deeply values Michael’s empathy after losing her son: “Mike listens and says little, but it’s meaningful. He’s been a pleasure to have.” (18:19)
• Mental Health Worker’s Perspective:
  • A former social worker, now Michael’s friend, notes: “Michael did a great job at helping these guys out… he showed empathy and all this stuff that was way different than what I’d been told.” (15:00–16:25)

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3. Business Ventures and Rising Tensions – Michael, Eric, and Ariel

• Genesis and Failure of Man Ranch:

  • Michael exits transitional housing and attempts to partner with Eric Hutchins, a former counseling mentee from prison, to launch a construction and land management business.
  • Ariel is reluctantly brought in to invest her retirement savings, despite major reservations:
    • “He was like, ‘It can’t lose.’ I’m thinking, no, nothing can’t lose… I just didn’t think it was a good idea to put all my money into a venture.” (33:23–34:33)
  • When they arrive, they find the business in shambles—debts mounting, employees unpaid, vast mismanagement.
  • Ariel receives relentless creditor calls and discovers “Man Ranch owes like $800,000. … I’m bankrupt. In that moment, I wanted him to kill him [Eric].” (39:51–41:14)

• Deteriorating Relationships:

  • The business disaster strains Michael and Ariel’s relationship; she considers leaving: “Let Man Ranch burn up in flames. It’s already dead. You can’t save it. But if you stay here, Eric’s going to go down in flames. He’s going to drag you with him.” (41:45)

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4. Fraud Allegations and Legal Trouble

• Unemployment Benefits Scheme:

  • Both Michael and Eric are arrested for orchestrating what prosecutors call the largest local COVID unemployment benefits scam, allegedly defrauding nearly $400,000.

  • Michael and Eric offer sharply conflicting accounts:

    • Eric: “Mike was generally trying to help these people… But Mike’s theory was that you can’t let them control their money or they’ll buy drugs.” (46:11–47:37)
    • Michael: “I can barely use this damn flip phone… the idea that I set these things up … is highly unlikely.” (48:49)
    • Eric: Describes Michael as technologically adept and in control of the accounts. (49:29)

  • Ariel: “They’re alleging a theft of hundreds and thousands of dollars. Well, where’s the money then? We never saw it… We realized [Eric’s] really a bad guy. He lied about everything.” (50:13)

• Background Revelations:

  • Ariel uncovers that Eric’s previous conviction was for financial elder abuse—he had stolen from another elderly woman: “He went to prison because he stole from an old lady. Voila. … He found me, and he took all my money, too.” (52:03)

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5. Conflicting Narratives & Manipulation

• Mirrored Lies:

  • Ariel and Michael both muse on how Eric mirrored Michael’s life story back to him to earn trust; later, Eric claims Michael orchestrated his own narrative for dramatic effect. (52:30–54:22)
  • Eric: “Mike had me convinced before we even left prison for me to tell a story that linked us together, that made it more interesting for the film side. … That was the original story.” (54:10)
  • Michael: Disputes Eric’s claim, believing Eric concocted the story to gain his trust: “Maybe… it probably wasn’t true. He probably made it up.” (54:48)

• Loop of Victimhood and Responsibility:

  • Eric reflects: “Mike just has a way of making you believe in him… And, you know, I spent two years believing in him. And, you know, we had this dream and it just didn’t work out.” (57:58)
  • Michael: “Absolutely. People oftentimes ask me… you’re trying to tell me that you got played out of the pocket? Absolutely.” (58:38)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

(All timestamps MM:SS)

• Reentry to the World:
  “When they took me out to put me in that van, they didn’t put leg shackles and waist chains and handcuffs on me. And I thought, ‘Oh, this is weird.’” – Michael Thompson (02:25)

• Pain of Adjusting:
  “You spend that many years in a cell… You have to anticipate that being released back out into a society that has cars and technology—more importantly, people—it was like coming from the reservation to the big city.” – Michael Thompson (05:53)

• On Technology:
  “When I went to prison, I still used a rotary phone. Suddenly I found myself with a smartphone in my hands…” – Michael Thompson (05:53)

• On the Public:
  “Amazingly rude, narcissistic, self-centered, a lack of care… I was shocked. I actually anticipated coming out into an environment that was more wholesome.” – Michael Thompson (06:44)

• Ariel on Michael’s Trust:
  “If you say I give you my word, that guy’s going to believe you. No, you have to write it down in a contract. … And it’s not his thinking at all.” – Ariel (08:09)

• Ken on Michael:
  “Because this man, you know, he walks with his head up high, man… There’s no BS with this guy… But he helps me understand my problems too.” – Ken (12:54, 13:25)

• Annie’s Grief:
  “Mike listens and says little, but it’s meaningful. He’s been a pleasure to have.” – Annie (18:19)

• Ariel on Bankruptcy:
  “Man Ranch owes like $800,000… I’m bankrupt. In that moment, I wanted him to kill him. And he’s not even breaking a sweat. He says, 'Oh, no, I’ll make it work.'” – Ariel (39:51)

• Eric on Manipulation:
  “Mike’s controlled the narrative this whole time.” – Eric Hutchins (54:23)

• Michael’s Admission:
  “People oftentimes ask me… you’re trying to tell me you got played out of the pocket? Absolutely.” – Michael Thompson (58:38)

• On Facing Prison Again:
  “Do you ever think about, like the possibility that you may go to prison for the rest of your life?”
  “Yeah, it is. It essentially comes down to a death sentence.” – Nick/ Michael (59:08)

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Timestamps & Episode Structure

[00:41–08:09]

Recap and Michael’s first days out, shock of freedom, challenges with trust, and learning to navigate society.

[11:22–18:19]

Meeting new friends (Ken, Annie, social worker); neighbors, friendship, and Michael’s continuing empathy.

[23:31–34:33]

Business partnership origins, Ariel’s hesitation, shifting dynamics and foreshadowing of financial failure.

[36:25–41:45]

Discovering the collapse of Man Ranch, bankruptcy, and the mounting toll on relationships.

[44:25–51:25]

Details of the unemployment fraud case, conflicting stories between Michael and Eric, accusations, and Ariel’s frustration.

[51:25–58:38]

Uncovering Eric’s past, mirrored traumas and stories, shifting blame, mutual manipulation.

[58:38–59:59+]

Michael’s admission of gullibility, fears about returning to prison, closing emotional reflections.

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Summary

This episode peels back the public narrative of redemption surrounding Michael Thompson, exposing a tangle of failed second chances, moral ambiguity, and unresolved trauma. The intricate storytelling and candid interviews reveal how cycles of trust, betrayal, and manipulation repeat in and beyond prison walls. Each participant—Michael, Ariel, Eric, Ken, Annie—brings both pathos and doubt, forging a mosaic that challenges easy judgments about victims, perpetrators, and the possibility of starting over.

Next week, the saga reaches its conclusion as the legal and emotional aftermath comes to a head.

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“Love and Radio” and “Blood Memory” are available wherever you get your podcasts. For more information, visit loveandradio.org.

Transcript

[Narrator/Host]

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[Nick Van Der Kolk]

Previously on Blood Memory.

[Narrator/Host]

The board will make its decision, and I will be supportive of whatever that is, because I don't believe all this

[Eric Hutchins]

is the exact right thing either.

[Ariel]

When he actually called me, he was in tears.

[Michael Thompson]

You know, Randy says, I'm gonna let you go.

[Eric Hutchins]

The vain side of me was like,

[Ariel]

I should have gone.

[Eric Hutchins]

He wouldn't have been out.

[Michael Thompson]

He said, here's my advice to you, if you will embrace that humility every day. When you get up, you'll be fine.

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

From love and radio, you're listening to Blood Memory. I'm Nick Van Der Kolk. This is episode nine, the Outside World.

[Ariel]

45 years in prison. Intellectually, you realize this is going to be hard. For 45 years. He didn't see trees, just concrete. It was sad to think about that because he's such a nature boy. He's such a nature boy. He told me about one incident where he was taken to a surgery. On the way there, in the parking lot of the medical facility, there were these really large trees and. And they're all waving, you know, and rustling in the wind. He just felt their energy, and he just vibrated with it, and he just was shaking. The trees just brought him to tears.

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

Chapter one. Michael and Ariel.

[Michael Thompson]

We got through the board process. Then I had to wait for the governor to approve it. Came back and said, governor has no objection. You're leaving on August 13th. It was like, okay. Well, that day came and walked me down to receiving and released R and R. Put me in a cage. I had clothes that I could put on. And for the first time, when they took me out to put me in that van, they didn't put leg shackles and waist chains and handcuffs on me. And I thought, oh, this is weird. So walked out and I got in the van and drove down the main street of Chino, said, okay. We got to the train station, pulled in, they got out, opened van, and I looked, and there stood Ariel. I said, man. So I got out of the van, walked over, took her in my arms, and we Just stood there for a while holding each other. I said, let's go put some food in our belly.

[Ariel]

He was wearing the most awful clothes because they gave him this like white T shirt and brown khaki pants. Michael wearing white T shirts and brown khakis. Like, no, that's not him. So like when I saw him I wanted to laugh at him, but I didn't.

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

I mean, have you ever seen him out of, out of prison clothes?

[Ariel]

No, never. Yeah, luckily for him, he looks good in anything. Even when I saw him the first time, he was wearing an orange jumpsuit. For a blue eyed person, orange is a great color. So you look great even in the orange jumpsuit. But the white T shirt and the khaki pants look horrible. I said, first thing we're going to do is we're going to get you close. And all he could say was, I'm not wearing skinny jeans.

[Michael Thompson]

One of the requirements of the board was that I go into a six month transitional housing program to acclimate me to society. They plopped me down right in the middle of la and it was a madhouse. It reminded me of an ant colony. There were so many people.

[Ariel]

The place that he was living was awful. But he could leave in the day to be with me and get some work done. Then he'd have to go back. He never complained, but I could tell he was kind of freaked out by the time he came to me because he had to get on a bus and get on a train and all that and. And he would tell me some stories about the people he met along the way. There were gang bangers, he said, drug transactions right outside the transitional housing. And he could see all these things where I probably wouldn't have seen it, but he was like, did you see the guys? No, I didn't. I just don't see it. And so he was much more aware of the danger than I was because I wasn't cluing in on those things.

[Michael Thompson]

You know, you spend that many years in a cell in a controlled environment that is really no bigger than a football field. You have to anticipate that being released back out into a society that has cars and technology and more importantly, people. It was like coming from the reservation to the big city. When I went to prison, I still used a rotary phone. Suddenly I found myself with a smartphone in my hands and not even knowing how to make a phone call. And somebody in that phone that was talking back to me could tell me where I was, could give me directions to go someplace else, could tell me A good restaurant or really answer any question that I had. And that was phenomenal.

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

What was the biggest shock for you

[Eric Hutchins]

about how the world had changed when

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

you first got out?

[Michael Thompson]

I suppose the biggest shock was people. Amazingly rude, narcissistic, self centered, a lack of care for their fellow human being, the lack of love. I was shocked. I actually anticipated coming out into an environment that was more wholesome than it was anything. But it struck me as just bizarre. You want to remember that I came to prison right out of the 60s era when you had the hippies and the idea of love was not a disparaging word. And that was probably the biggest shock.

[Ariel]

One day he showed up in the middle of winter with just a T shirt on and it's cold in LA in the middle of winter. So I said, why are you dressed like this? Where's your jacket? Where's your long sleeve shirt? He said, oh, he was a young man in the bus station and he was just shivering. He said he was like, he was just holding himself because he had, he had no shirt, you know. And he said, so I gave him mine. So, you know, what could I say? He's like that. He's just not a skeptical person.

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

How does someone manage to get so high in the ranks the brand without suspicions about people's motives?

[Ariel]

I know, right? I really thought that at his age and everything and you know, our 15 year relationship and everything else, he wouldn't have been that way, that naive at that point because he trusts people too much. If you say I give you my word, that guy's going to believe you. No, you have to write it down in a contract. You have to have a lawyer look at it. You have to think about all the things that could go wrong and all the things that this might mean, you know, and it's not his thinking. He's not his thinking at all. We get into arguments. Well, mostly I'd be arguing because he doesn't get mad. I'd say, well did you ask this question? Well, did you ask him this? And he'd say no. I said, well, did you ask him that? He'd say no. I said, why didn't you ask more questions? He said, well, I've never asked questions. When he grew up with walks on top from the age of 12 to 18, he didn't ask questions. He couldn't, he wasn't allowed to. Walks on Top would sit him down and lecture to him for hours. He wasn't allowed to ask questions. Then he came to prison. You don't ask questions in prison either. He said, in prison, if you ask a question, it's like you're fronting the person off. You cannot ask. You're disrespecting them. Like questioning them. Asking questions is like questioning them their honor. Yeah. Or like, what do you. You're suspicious. You don't think I'm telling you the right thing, you know, that sort of thing. I mean, I'm a question asker. I mean, from the time I was a little girl, I was always asking questions. So questions come to me just like bubbles out of a fish. If you think about your relationships with people, how do you know people? You know people within social context and so forth. How is this person at home? How is this person with other people? You know, how is this person doing chores? How is this person at work? If you marry a prisoner, you only know this person when they're sitting next to you on a chair in the prison visiting room. And you know it's up to them and you to communicate and find out more about each other and so forth. But you can't really know.

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

Love and Radio will return after these messages.

[Eric Hutchins]

Protein is now at Starbucks, and it's

[Michael Thompson]

never tasted so good.

[Eric Hutchins]

You can add protein cold foam to your favorite drink or try one of our new protein lattes or matcha. Try it today at Starbucks.

[Narrator/Host]

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[Nick Van Der Kolk]

Can you explain where we're headed right now?

[Michael Thompson]

Well, we're heading over to a local cafe, Renee's Cafe. It's kind of a homey atmosphere. They make French dip that I like. I'm not actually much of a meat eater, but I like that.

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

Chapter two Michael's New friends. Who are we going to meet?

[Michael Thompson]

Ken, very good friend of mine. We meet every Wednesday and have a meal together, spend a couple hours just catching up, talking.

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

How did you guys meet?

[Michael Thompson]

Well, he was my landlord, then established a rapport and a relationship. Best friends. I don't have a lot of friends, but Ken, I would count first among them.

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

Hey, how you doing?

[Michael Thompson]

We'll need one more water, please.

[Eric Hutchins]

Yeah, I could order for him, but

[Ken]

I know he's gonna have already.

[Michael Thompson]

We're ready to order.

[Ariel]

Okay, let me get Paul.

[Michael Thompson]

I may not have been very good at choosing my associates in the past, but this time I got it right. This time I got it right. As my elder would say, Ken's a man that I would ride the river with. And he's actually my elder.

[Ken]

I'm older.

[Michael Thompson]

Yeah. You knew I was gonna get that in there.

[Ken]

You staged me again.

[Michael Thompson]

Yeah, but there isn't anything I can't talk about with him.

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

I know it's a bit strange with him right next to us, but. What were your first impressions?

[Michael Thompson]

I can leave.

[Ken]

No, no, no, not at all. Because this man's, you know, he walks with his head up high, man. I mean, he's a man, you know? You knew that right off the get. There's no BS with this guy. I respected how he carried himself. And whatever you did yesterday, not important to me today. Everybody's done something in their life that wish they could go back on or whatever, maybe. And some things I don't wish to go that take them back, you know? But he helps me understand my problems too. In life, you know, or.

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

Like what?

[Ken]

Oh, just my very past. A long time ago, I was in Vietnam and other countries. Things I did, I just was holding in. He's helped me get through some of it. He's so understanding about shit. And he's been through so much more than I've ever been through in my life. I. I mean. I mean, how did you survive that long? The man's incredible. He was special for what he'd been through. I felt like I could talk to him because, shit, he was a lot worse things than I'd ever thought of doing or anything else, you know?

[Michael Thompson]

Okay, so let me stop bumping my gums and pay attention to the road. Big gray mailbox, he said.

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

That's it right there. Hey. Hello.

[Licensed Clinical Social Worker]

How you doing?

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

Nice to meet you, Nick.

[Licensed Clinical Social Worker]

You guys want milk or sugar or honey in your coffee? What do you want?

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

I'll do. Black is fine.

[Michael Thompson]

Just black?

[Cafe Staff]

Okay.

[Michael Thompson]

Thanks, Nick.

[Licensed Clinical Social Worker]

If it's too strong, let me know. I can make another pocket.

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

No, it's all good.

[Licensed Clinical Social Worker]

When I moved here in 1990, I worked for Mendocino County Mental Health. I'm a licensed clinical social worker. I'm an employee of wellpath right now, but I'm out on disability and I'm not sure if I'm actually going to go back.

[Michael Thompson]

Okay.

[Licensed Clinical Social Worker]

Wellpath is a company that contracts with prisons and jails across the country. So they provide the Medical staff. I'm there to help all the inmates out with their mental health issues, whatever that is. I don't care why they're there. I'm going to treat everybody with respect. Some of the medical staff would, you know, go, you're too nice to them.

[Annie]

Or.

[Licensed Clinical Social Worker]

I even had one time an administrative assistant said, you're putting us all in danger because you're too nice to the inmates.

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

How'd you meet Michael?

[Licensed Clinical Social Worker]

I remember when he came in, one of the couple of deputies said, oh, we've got this inmate here. He's been in prison for 45 years. He's notorious. He's very manipulative, Real smart guy, but, you know, he's dangerous. A couple days later, they said, he wants to see you. I think you were in B pod, if I remember. And that's a pod where it's like, they go, just remember, B for bad boy. I'm like, okay, whatever. They just closed the door. I have no way to get out because I can't open the door either. That was my first thought, is like, well, if this guy's as badass as they say he is, well, he could kill me. And they're not going to notice because they weren't out there watching. And they just this little window. But it didn't matter. Actually, we had a great conversation, and I think I talked to you for 45 minutes or something.

[Annie]

Something.

[Licensed Clinical Social Worker]

The first time, some of the inmates tell me, hey, I'm concerned about this guy next to me. He's screaming all night or there's something wrong. Then I'll. I'll see the person. But not many people do that. Michael was one that was actually concerned about the other inmates, which is not. It's kind of rare. Michael did a great job at helping these guys out. They would tell me, oh, Thompson gave me this, or told me this, or he was real helpful to the inmates there. Kind of helped me doing my job. So thank you, Michael. So he showed empathy and all this stuff that was way different than what I've been told.

[Annie]

I think you're a great guy, and I enjoy having you as my neighbor.

[Michael Thompson]

Do you want.

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

You want to say that again with a mic in your face?

[Annie]

Sure. Hi.

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

Hi. How are you?

[Annie]

I'm good. How about yourself?

[Michael Thompson]

Good. Yeah?

[Annie]

Yeah. Mike's been my neighbor for quite some time. We enjoy gardening.

[Michael Thompson]

Yeah.

[Annie]

What kind of stuff do you equally? Well, whatever will grow up here. Succulents, for starters, and geraniums. But I lost my son six months ago, and Mike's been very helpful. Through my grieving process, which has been. I lost my son from an overdose of drugs, and I had no idea. I mean, it's all the same. I thought it was alcohol, but. And he also was having convulsions, which I was not aware of. And, you know, it's a blessing. He's with the good Lord and he's out of pain.

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

How are you holding up?

[Annie]

I'm doing well, thank you. Doing really well. As I said, he's in a better place. He's at peace. But Micah's always, you know, mentioned, you know, if ever I need anything, he's here if I want to talk. And sometimes I do want to talk, you know, which I don't like talking to a lot of people because I don't, you know, they blab. Mike listens and says little, but it's meaningful. So he's been a pleasure to have, but. What a beautiful day. Look at all this nice work he's done. He's straightened out my fence for me, bless his heart.

[Ken]

I think he's a hell of a man.

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

I've seen some interviews with folks whether in law enforcement or, you know, brand members, former brand members who, you know, they describe this sort of master manipulator. Oh, and what do you say to that?

[Ken]

I don't know. I got a weak mind. I might be manipulated. Very easy. I don't know what he'd manipulate me for. I'm too damn old to go out on battle with him or something, you know. So now he's a special person. I say, I've had friends all my life. I've had good friends. But Mike's special. He's just really special. So I believe in him.

[Eric Hutchins]

I do.

[Licensed Clinical Social Worker]

Well, if he's trying to manipulate me, he hasn't asked me for anything. There's nothing he can really get from me.

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

Why do you think people told you he was a master manipulator? Why do you think they got that impression?

[Licensed Clinical Social Worker]

I just think people get stuck. Like, I wasn't even thinking of Aryan. He was the head of Aryan Brotherhood. When I was talking to him when I first met him. I know that he was, but that wasn't even in my mind as we were talking.

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

When he contacted you after he got out, was that surprising to hear from him or.

[Licensed Clinical Social Worker]

No, I'm glad he did because I kind of wanted to give him my phone number, even though I'm not supposed to do it. Like, you know, by the time this gets out, I won't be working there anymore anyway. I would be fired if they knew that he was sitting here in my house. Yeah. Yeah.

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

But you don't care.

[Licensed Clinical Social Worker]

I don't care.

[Annie]

Is that off?

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

I can turn it off if you want me to.

[Michael Thompson]

No, that's fine. One of the things we're dealing with right now, Annie, is what's happening with me in the court system. I just wanted to give you the opportunity, as my neighbor and knowing my background, to let Nick know one way or another, whether or not you were comfortable with me here.

[Annie]

I'm very comfortable with him. He's my neighbor. And a great one at that. And, you know, the unfortunate part is that seems like these days nothing is right or wrong. It's narrative. Keep the narrative going. Keep everyone happy up there. And what they seem to forget is they work for us. You never know it. Half the the time it's terrible. It's shameful.

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

Folks in the government, you mean?

[Annie]

Yep. Government, media, you name it. It'll come to a head soon, I'm sure. As it should. I better quit.

[Michael Thompson]

Thanks, Annie.

[Annie]

Sure.

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

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[Michael Thompson]

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[Eric Hutchins]

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[Michael Thompson]

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[Eric Hutchins]

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[Michael Thompson]

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[Eric Hutchins]

Helping you quickly write, analyze, create and summarize so you can cut through clutter

[Michael Thompson]

and clear a path to your best work. Learn [e-mail] M365 copilot.

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

All right. I was gonna come a little close just because I got better. Better audio that way, but. How you doing? I'm hanging in there.

[Eric Hutchins]

Yeah, I just spoke with Mike. He just called me. Yeah, he's all. I just wanted to call and let you know that I told Nick that you can't say nothing about their case. And that's not what I told Mike. But I don't know if he's just worried about what I'm gonna say, right?

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

Chapter three Eric.

[Eric Hutchins]

It's been this big thing where he's been openly talking about me, but I'VE never said nothing. And so I don't know if he's concerned about that. I mean, my lawyer did say that, you know, you don't want to say anything that will incriminate yourself. But he seems to put out there that we're at odds with each other, but he'll call me up and act like my best friend, and so it's a little frustrating. We met in Chino State Prison, and I got assigned to these self help groups. Mike was the counselor, mentor and facilitator for these groups, and so he became my counselor.

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

What was your initial impression of him at the time?

[Eric Hutchins]

Well, Mike is very likable individual, and he kind of reminded me a lot of my dad, Someone that I've never been able to get the approval of. So it was. It was nice being able to talk to Mike.

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

What were the counseling sessions like? Were they helpful to you? What kind of stuff do you talk?

[Eric Hutchins]

It helped me understand my relationship with my dad because I haven't spoke to my dad since my brother Shane's funeral in 2010.

[Newscaster]

The Ukiah Daily Journal reports that the shooting death of Shane M. Hutchins by police was deemed justified after an investigation by the Mendocino County District Attorney's office. Hutchins was wanted in at least 11 felony cases that included rape, kidnapping, including that of a Ukiah woman.

[Eric Hutchins]

The day my dad blamed me for my brother Shane's death. And so Mike helped me understand that my dad blames me because he doesn't, you know, he. He can't live with the guilt himself of being a bad parent or not doing something different, you know, losing his son. And so it helped me get through that process because I was still grieving. I still had my own guilt over my brother Shane because I was supposed to pick him up that day he was killed, and I ignored his phone calls because I had a pregnant girl at home. She was just like, you know, you can't deal with your brother today. He's too crazy. And he was, because he was on drugs. The biggest thing Mike helped me with is to understand that, you know, I didn't know who I was. I've been a hundred different people in my life because I hated my life. And I was whoever I needed to be to survive. I mean, he flat out told me in counseling one day, he says, you don't even know who you are. And until you figure that out, we can't move forward. We were raised on the ranch by my dad working cattle ranch in the

[Newscaster]

rugged region between Ukiah and Cape Mendocino mann ranch covered 7,000 acres. A home for prize cattle. Mann's house was built of Oregon pine

[Eric Hutchins]

ship ran by women mostly because the men seem to die off of ear infections, you know, a couple generations. My family on that side is probably the most unloving family on the planet. Very old school, like eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth type people. We really weren't treated any better than hunting dogs. If we didn't have a purpose, there was no use for us. So that's the kind of family that I have at this point in my life. I'm coming into it and struggling with my own identity. And so he helped me discover that and realize that and then separate what was the truth from the stuff I made up in my head in the last 40 years. I don't know where I would be mentally without that help. Might still be, you know, going down a crazier path. I feel extremely thankful to him in a way because I feel like he helped me get over that hump. I mean, it's easy for me to sit here and say I've been basically a fucking no good piece of shit person most of my life. And I didn't seem to care who I hurt as long as I got to where I needed to, to be.

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

Eric said that you said, and I'm quoting him here, I just wanted to call and let you know that I told Nick that you can't say anything about the case.

[Michael Thompson]

I've not stood in the way of Eric saying anything. And in fact, I'd encourage him to, to be open and honest about the case, the case itself. I think he finds that extremely difficult.

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

Chapter four. Michael, what was your vibe of him, you know, in that, in that early time?

[Michael Thompson]

Well, I actually thought we were cut from the same cloth. I mean, he grew up as I did, raising cattle and doing ranch work and, you know, mending fences and pig hunting and deer hunting and, you know, everything that goes along with that environment. It was really the ecology of his life that appealed to me. And he struck me as like me that, you know, when you give your word, that's good enough. A handshake is how you deal with people as opposed to written contracts. I liked his work ethic, I liked his frankness. We talked about his family, of course, as part of the one on one counseling. So I began to learn more about his life. You know, growing up on this cattle ranch, he had somewhat of a native background. So he started coming to the sweat lodge with me. At that time, I still had the people's pipe behind the iron gates. So I was conducting ceremony, running the lodge. I liked what I saw in the lodge, relative to his prayers, how he conducted himself. Say I want to live with all my relations and say it over and over again. You have what's called the mother's womb, that's covered with blankets or hides, and then it has a flap that opens up. That's the east door. So out that east door there's a path to a fire pit. And there you determine how many rock people that you're going to put in to the lodge. You have a fire keeper who uses deer antlers to lift the rocks out of the fire and carry them to the lodge. And. And I would lift those into what was called the mother's womb. The flap would come up after the second round and I'd have the pipe sent in, pack it, load it, sing my songs, and then I would light it, and then I would pass it sunwise to each person in the lodge. And that would give them an opportunity to either pray with it or to reveal something that was troubling them, knowing that they could not lie to the pipe, that they had to tell the truth. When it came to Eric, he said that he had something that he needed to say. He told the story of how he had been sent to this prison with the idea of assassinating me on behalf of the Hell's Angels.

[Eric Hutchins]

California Attorney General E. Younger called for

[Michael Thompson]

vigilance against the Hell's Angels, who he

[Eric Hutchins]

claimed are rapidly becoming large scale organized

[Michael Thompson]

crime operators, that Sonny Barger was his godfather and that he'd accepted this on behalf of his godfather.

[Eric Hutchins]

Younger also suggested that lawmen intensify their efforts to put club leader Sonny Barger behind bars.

[Michael Thompson]

And then, of course, I testified against the Hells Angels when they executed Margot Compton and her 26 year old twin daughters. You know, Eric said that in coming to know me and engaged in the various things that we had participated in, particularly in the lodge, that he could not bring himself to follow through with the assassination. So he had decided, and in the truth and the spirit of the lodge itself and the people's pipe, to reveal it to me.

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

What went through your mind at that moment? I mean, did you believe him?

[Michael Thompson]

Yes, I. I believed him. Because you can't lie to the pipe. I'm not saying that he didn't. Eventually the idea was generated that we would start a construction company, but one that specialized in land management. My plan was, is that I wanted to build a house on each plot for transitional housing. I had a Plan to build a volunteer fire department. This way, when people come out of prison, they have a place to go to where they can receive counseling, where they can get a job, and where they can learn life skills and live. Eric had said that he had been a captain with. With the fire department. He had worked in the construction business. And so we started a partnership.

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

What was going to be your role in all of that?

[Eric Hutchins]

Well, I mean, he just wanted me to be his partner. He didn't have any knowledge in the construction side. That was where I came in. But he got this idea that we should open this business and I should use my family's ranch because of the name recognition. In my mind, I was like, okay, if I can do something good, you know, maybe this is a good idea.

[Michael Thompson]

I was putting all that in place, and I began to integrate him into the plans to build the business. Of course, we were looking for capital investment, and I talked to Ariel about investing in this business.

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

Mike was proposing that you take some of your retirement savings.

[Ariel]

Yeah. Give it to Eric and do this construction business. He was like, it can't lose. You know, like, I'm thinking, no, nothing can't lose.

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

No.

[Ariel]

What I balked on was the money. I didn't want to do it. I had only a certain amount of money left, and I was old, and I didn't want to lose my money. He'd never asked me for anything. Sometimes inmates, I'll tell you, the stories I've heard can be very demanding. Get me this, get me that. But he was never like that. I mean, anything I did for him was so grateful, so appreciative, and he never asked for anything. I just didn't think it was a good idea to put all my money into a venture. And the fact that that's all the money I had, there wasn't any guarantee that he would get out. So he was not going to be around to make it. Put a lot of trust into Eric. Michael was not necessarily going to be paroled. So then who would have the oversight to put a lot of trust in this man that we barely knew?

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

How did Michael present Eric to you when he first. Do you remember when he first met.

[Ariel]

He was just enamored of Eric. He just thought the world of him.

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

When you first met him, like, what was your impression of him at that time?

[Ariel]

I was shocked. He was like a schlub, I thought. I just didn't get a good feeling. Well, oh, well, what can I do now?

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

But you decided to do it at the end.

[Ariel]

Yeah. Like I said, he'd never asked me for anything and I felt bad. You know, he ask me for one thing and I say no.

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

Love and radio will return after these messages.

[Eric Hutchins]

New Maybelline Serum Lipstick.

[Ariel]

Maybe it's not just lipstick.

[Eric Hutchins]

It's lush color with endless possibilities.

[Newscaster]

It's serum infused with a hyaluronic acid

[Ariel]

and oil blend for eight hour, plumping

[Newscaster]

moisture in tone enhancing shades.

[Eric Hutchins]

It's more than the shade, it's who's wearing it.

[Annie]

You.

[Ariel]

New Maybelline Serum lipstick.

[Eric Hutchins]

Maybe it's Maybelline.

[Licensed Clinical Social Worker]

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[Nick Van Der Kolk]

Chapter 5 Lakeport

[Michael Thompson]

I go into a 6 month transitional housing program and then I was released from the program in February of 2020. In March 2020, Ariel and I arrived up here to Lakeport and found what was supposed to be a thriving, lucrative business in total disarray. There was an office, but it apparently it had a secretary at one time, but everything had a layer of dust on it and, and there was a computer but there was essentially nothing on it.

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

What did you say to Eric and all that? I mean, did you confront him about this stuff?

[Michael Thompson]

What was your approach? I confronted him. His excuse was his health, that he had had a heart attack. He sent me pictures of being hooked up to a electrocardiogram. Essentially what he was telling me was that the business was failing and it was failing because he couldn't manage it.

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

Is there any truth to that?

[Eric Hutchins]

Absolutely not. You know, the business had nothing to do with failing because of my health.

[Michael Thompson]

I mean, I did have some issues

[Eric Hutchins]

that were heart related, but it had nothing to do with my ability to work or anything else.

[Michael Thompson]

He had had employees but couldn't keep them and he had taken on numerous jobs, retaining walls, defensible space, construction jobs, road jobs. So as I acquired this knowledge, my first priority was to get the work that needed to be done done. These clients had paid for the work and hadn't gotten to work. So I immediately went to work finishing these jobs. Those were 16 to 18 hour days. I would get up at 4, go to work, and then I would work all day. And then, you know, it stayed lighter longer. So, you know, I could work till dark. And that was typically 7:30 to 8:00 clock at night. But then I would go back to the office and try to figure out what was going on with all this paperwork and then try to get some sleep, you know. Meanwhile, Ariel was upset because I was working so hard at 70 years old. I wasn't used to that kind of labor. It was kicking my butt. Of course, the pandemic was full blown then and of course couldn't find anybody that would work. Because of the pandemic, most people were getting more money from unemployment than I could pay them. What it came down to is that I was having to do everything myself. I mean, literally everything. And, you know, bringing Eric back into the fold and saying, look, I need your help on this. We're going to do this, we're going to do that. And he was very knowledgeable in construction. So he would come to a site and he would essentially provide guidance relative to what needed to be done. And then he would be gone.

[Ariel]

I remember it was my birthday. I started getting phone calls from credit card companies from various entities saying, where's our money? I said, what the heck is going on?

[Michael Thompson]

There was a storage unit that was supposed to have tools and equipment in it. I found boxes of unopened mail bills, and it was just a mess.

[Ariel]

Apparently Eric wasn't paying the bills. Michael takes all the paperwork, sorted through everything. He says, man ranch owes like $800,000. I said, you mean I owe $800,000? She said, yeah. I said, I'm bankrupt. In that moment, I wanted him to kill him. And he's not even breaking a sweat. He says, oh no, I'll make it work. I said, it's not a matter of you working your ass off trying to make this work. It's never going to work. I'm $800,000 in debt. And he said, the one that has the construction knowledge and skill, you can dig every ditch in the world and you'll never be able to do this work because you are not qualified. If Eric were to do the work that he's qualified to do, you have a chance of pulling this out. But he's not interested. He's not interested, he's not working. So he's a thief. That's all he is. Finally, he consented to do the bankruptcy because, I mean, I was just being constantly hounded by people, wanted their money I used to have an excellent credit rating. Now I can't even get a Gap credit card. Yeah, that's how bad it is. Yeah.

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

You had to come out of retirement.

[Ariel]

I had to, yeah.

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

Yeah. It's a big deal, right?

[Ariel]

It's a huge, huge deal. Yeah. And because I told everybody I was quitting, I'm glad I didn't say anything insulting when I quit, you know, like take this job and shove it or something, you know, which I felt kind of like. So I wanted to spend the rest of my life really being useful on a higher level than I've been. And then I got totally derailed because of Man Ranch and Eric, was it

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

tough on your man marriage?

[Ariel]

Oh, very tough. I told him, this is what's going to happen if you don't leave now with me. I said, I don't know where we're going. We got to get out of here. Let Man Ranch burn up in flames. It's already dead. You can't save it. But if you stay here, Eric's going to go down in flames. He's going to drag you with him.

[Eric Hutchins]

You know, at first it started out great. Chapter 6 Eric we were on track and we had a plan. He had gotten out, but he was in the halfway house and LA or Orange county, wherever. He knew that I was getting out in June and so he wanted me to start working the business until he got out, which is essentially what we did. Mike had the idea that we just start out big as opposed to start out small and work our way up. Because he's like, you know, nobody knows us. You know, if we just come in big with all new stuff, then people are going to be like, hey, this, they must be a successful company. And that definitely put us in a financial hardship. We continued to work on getting contracts and you know, the things that we had talked about, working on fires, all this stuff that I, my specialty was in. And we couldn't get the contracts. It just didn't work. And I don't know why it didn't because he had all these people backing him. At least he told me he did. So he would throw all these names out there of people that were pretty high up in the non profit organizations for rehabilitation. They all wanted him to be like their poster child. He had me convinced that, you know, the funding was forthwith, but never saw it. He gave aerial instructions. So she followed his instructions and did everything that he wanted done. Created banking system, credit cards through the business, everything with her the guarantor, but everything was in her name. And the man ranch name and the bank accounts were in her name, his name. You know, I never had access. I never had an account in my name, you know, and she hasn't got that money back. Honestly, I believe Ariel's about as much of a victim as I am.

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

Chapter seven, the Law.

[Ariel]

One day we're just in the apartment. All of a sudden all these cops come over, trash the place. Just trashed it. We get raided. Cops, six of them, breaking into my apartment, stepping all over my stuff with their dirty boots, breaking the handles off of my cabinets, took everything, took my stuff illegally, no search warrant. And that was really scary and humiliating.

[Eric Hutchins]

I just dropped the kids off at school and leaving the school, got pulled over by the investigators and they took me down to their station where the feds were there waiting. The local investigation investigators were like, you know, you need to tell the feds what's going on. And I explained to them the same thing and I said, what are you talking about? We're, we're helping these people.

[Newscaster]

Thompson was paroled in 2019 and began a life as a prominent ex con life coach and drug counselor. He has touted himself as a symbol of redemption after 45 years behind the iron gates. But according to the Sacramento Bee, Lake county authorities say there is more to Thompson Thompson's life after incarceration, alleging that he and a colleague he met in prison orchestrated the largest California unemployment fraud case in the county. Thompson was arrested Monday and booked into Lake County Jail. He has been accused of collecting nearly $400,000 in fraudulent unemployment benefits by convincing at least 16 victims to hand over their personal information to him and co defendant Eric Hutchins.

[Eric Hutchins]

We got to a situation where covet hit Mike was all about filling out applications for grant money and getting the government to pay for this and pay for that. And then he found out about EDD allowing self employed people to file because I didn't know anything about it. And he signed everybody up. I mean, he signed me up himself up. I mean, my mom, my mom's boyfriend, I mean everybody around us for edd. And so we all got this money. But you know, Mike was generally trying to help these people.

[Newscaster]

The Lake county district attorney told the Sacramento Bee. Basically, the story was, oh, well, we're going to apply for unemployment for you. We'll take a fee and we'll give you the rest. And in most of these cases, they never got any of the unemployment benefits. Lake county authorities say the victims in the case were mostly homeless or transient residents who were living off Social Security or Disability payments every two weeks.

[Eric Hutchins]

On Friday, I would go to the atm, pull the money out for these people, put an envelope with their names on them with the amount, and take all the envelopes back to the office. Sometimes I would deliver them, sometimes they would get picked up, sometimes the office lady would deliver them. And that was it. The money got put on their own cards, and we were controlling their money. You know, there. I'm not going to deny that. You know, but Mike's theory was that you can't let them control their money or they'll buy drugs.

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

So he was just helping these people sign up, or was he taking some of that money as well?

[Eric Hutchins]

Well, you know, initial payment was taken every time.

[Michael Thompson]

Okay.

[Eric Hutchins]

You know, some people paid a thousand, some people paid 1500. Just depends on whatever he negotiated. And everybody was fine with it.

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

His service fee.

[Eric Hutchins]

Yeah, yeah. But I do remember asking Mike, you know, are we going to get in trouble for this? I'm just like, can we do that? Is that legal? And he's like, oh, the whole country's doing it. It's Covid. You know, all the people in prison are doing it. I mean, that's. That was his answer. We're not going to get in trouble for this. The whole country's doing it.

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

What was your specific concern with it?

[Eric Hutchins]

Well, the fact that they said independent contractors can file for unemployment, and that's where people that were actually working for themselves. The people that he was signing up were homeless, who. Their last occupation might have been in the last 30 years as hookers, but he was creating fictitious jobs for them, saying that they were making masks for Covid or they were doing something from home. At that point, I was like, you know, just. I don't know, something was wrong with it. But he figured the more people can be signed up, the better.

[Michael Thompson]

That's ludicrous. Eric told them that I put together the EDD accounts for these people on the computer. I mean, I can barely use this damn flip phone, and I was just learning to use the computer. I mean, I can access the Internet and I can go online, but, you know, the idea that I set these things up and what's involved there, once, you know, my level of competency is highly unlikely. It isn't to say that it couldn't have been done. It could have, but it was highly unlikely. And, of course, there's no way to disprove that. See, that's the issue, and I guess that's why I said it, because everything else points to him.

[Eric Hutchins]

He had a whole elaborate computer set up with dual screens. And he seemed to be very adept at getting, you know, all the computer stuff done and learning how to do it.

[Michael Thompson]

You gotta understand, Eric had my phone, he had the computers, passwords. He was doing all this. He had acquired the EDD cards of a number of individuals. First, I didn't understand who these individuals were. And he got them set up with ED benefits and then got their cards. And then he was taking their benefits and distributing money to them. They found out that what he was telling him they were getting by way of money wasn't true. They were getting thousands of dollars and he was giving them hundreds.

[Ariel]

But one of them complained to the cops because she wanted it all and Eric was keeping too much of it. And she. She was smart enough to figure that she should have gotten more of it than Eric was giving. They picked up Eric, but guess what Eric did. He said, yeah, yeah, he's the one that put me up to this. This is the basis on which they arrested Michael. He was a mastermind of this. It's Eric that's shown on video picking up money from the ATMs. We don't have money. I mean, they're alleging a theft of hundreds and thousands of dollars. Well, where's the money then? Show me the money. That would have been nice to have the money. I never saw it. We never saw it. Where's the money? Well, that's a problem, because even if you go to Eric, he doesn't show the money. Nobody knows what Eric did with the money. And we realized he's really a bad guy. He's not just a weak guy or a kind of slovenly guy. He's a bad guy. Now, looking back on him, the thing is he lied about everything.

[Michael Thompson]

My belief was, is that he was in prison because of interstate transportation of marijuana. Come to find out, he was in prison for elder abuse and threatening a witness.

[Eric Hutchins]

What charge were you in for the financial? Elder abuse and marijuana.

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

Okay.

[Eric Hutchins]

I got a seven year sentence out of that.

[Newscaster]

Eric Abner Hutchins pled guilty in 2016 to two felonies, preventing a witness from reporting an incident and theft or embezzlement by a caretaker of the elderly. He had previously been convicted in the mid-2000s of selling marijuana, credit card fraud, and identity theft.

[Ariel]

He went to prison because he stole from an old lady. Voila. You think we would have gone in with him if we knew that that was a charge? I mean, think about it. He bilked an old lady out of her savings. That's why he went to prison. He found me, and he took all my money, too. No conscience. He knew that was all my money. He knew I was elderly.

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

The.

[Ariel]

Did he care? We found out that the things that he was saying to Michael that made Michael trust him and like him were all false. And I think what happened is very cleverly, he found out Michael told him about himself. So Eric picked up on that and mirrored it right back to him. You know, he's describing his relationship with his father very similar to Michael. Michael's relationship with elder Walks on Top, you know, and described his father very similarly to Walks on Top. And in fact, I remember Michael. It's telling me, wow, you know, Eric's dad was just like, walks on Top. And they had a real similar relationship. Later on, we found out. It's just like, yeah, because he just lied.

[Eric Hutchins]

This whole time. I mean, I'm doing counseling with him, and, you know, he's learning everything about my life. And it wasn't until later that I realized that he must have been discussing it with Ariel a lot because he knew a lot of stuff about me already, and so he must have had her looking it up online because he knew about my brother Shane being shot and killed by the sheriff's office. Just kind of a rough history of who I was. He had told me later that the real reason he did that is because he wanted to make sure that I wasn't there to hurt him. Because he had this open contract on his life. Mike had me convinced before we even left prison for me to tell a story that linked us together, that made it more interesting for the film side. That was the other part of all this. We were going to be in the movie business because of his history.

[Michael Thompson]

Okay.

[Eric Hutchins]

And he wanted me to tell that I was contracted through the Hell's Angels to take him out, but I decided not to, and we became friends. That was the original story.

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

That was the story I heard from him. Yeah.

[Eric Hutchins]

Yeah. And so pretty much, Mike's controlled the narrative this whole time.

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

And you went along with it, though?

[Eric Hutchins]

I did.

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

He did mention this whole story of him being brought in by the Hell's Angels to sort of keep tabs on you or put a hit on you or something. His accusation was that you had suggested to him that this was a story that he should tell to kind of make the story more interesting.

[Michael Thompson]

No. When I started taking him to the lodge and counseling him and so on, then he revealed to me that he had been contracted to kill me on behalf of the Hell's Angels. Maybe. It sounds good. It's Pretty. Pretty. What's the word? Theatrical, Dramatic. Now that I think about everything else, it probably wasn't true. He probably made it up.

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

In regards to the EDD fraud case. I mean, do you think he was genuinely trying to do the right thing?

[Eric Hutchins]

Well, you know, I've thought about that a lot, actually, and I think that it. I guess. I guess my answer would be no. Mike wanted to have something that was a success. But Mike didn't care how he got there, and he didn't care who he stepped on or who he hurt to get to where his agenda. I didn't realize that at first. So do I believe that this was all sincere? No, I think it was just everything is always a means to an end for him. Him. So he wanted to be in a certain position, he wanted to have a certain stature, and he was going to do whatever he had to do to get there, period. And I think he's been that way his entire life. I think that's why he was so good at being a part of the Aryan Brotherhood, you know what I mean? Because that's what you have to do. My mom made a statement to me before she passed away. She had told me, eric, you kind of a borderline con person most of your life, too, but you got conned by a con man. Mike is a control person. He didn't get used by somebody else. And that's all I can say for sure. I mean, nobody told Mike what to do. And anybody that would believe that after talking to Mike will know that that's, you know, there's no way Mike's ever done anything that he didn't want to. To do. I would have been the first person to tell you that I'm completely accountable for my actions. And I made these decisions on my own, and I'm not a victim. But, you know, having to learn all this, and I'm realizing, God damn, this guy used me.

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

Why do you keep taking his calls?

[Eric Hutchins]

I just, in general, to be nice. I don't see any harm. I don't say nothing. He brings up the case every now and then, but I just tell him that, you know, my lawyer is working on whatever she's working on, okay? And he talks about what's going on and how he thinks that maybe we should all sit down in a room together and figure out how to, you know, proceed with the case. But my lawyer at this time doesn't know how that will look. He's nice when I talk to him, and he always denies saying what other people tell me. He says and so at that point, I don't really have anything to say other than I'm just being nice. Also, I mean, I like Mike. That's what makes this so hard.

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

That's wild to me that you like him, given all this.

[Eric Hutchins]

Mike just has a way of making you believe in him. Like he, he had now. Yeah. You know, like he acts like he wants to help me, you know, or wants to beat this case and tells me how we can beat it. And it's hard to say what his reasonings are and I know that they're probably negative. But again, it's just hard because he's a likable person. And, you know, I spent two years believing in him. And, you know, we had this dream and it just didn't work out.

[Michael Thompson]

Did I fall short? Absolutely. And so I readily acknowledge that, readily admit that people oftentimes ask me, well, wait a minute, you did 45 years in prison. You're a former leader of the Aryan Brotherhood, and you're trying to tell me that you got played out of the pocket? Absolutely.

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

I almost don't want to ask you this question, but do you ever think about, like the possibility that you may go to prison for the rest of your life?

[Michael Thompson]

Yeah, it is. It essentially comes down to a death sentence. I mean, I have to contend with the fact that there's an open contract on me. The last thing on earth I ever want to be again is violent. But if I'm to survive, that may be required. There outside my window. Oh,

[Ariel]

dear friend.

[Michael Thompson]

So far, Sam,

[Eric Hutchins]

While we were finishing

[Cafe Staff]

up this episode, I had some follow up questions for Eric to get his response to some of Ariel and Michael's claims. But his phone number was disconnected and I wasn't able to find a way way to contact him. That's it for this episode of Blood Memory. Stay tuned to the end for a sneak peek of the next installment. Music on this episode comes from Sarepti, Julian Moreno, Andrew Frankel, Interbellum Isaac Soto, Zaroshi Autistichi and Justin Varys, Star of the Sea. Strange Bird Sounds Pierre Bastien and Michel Benabila. Kishosis Zaroshi, orieta creme de DJ1, Mike Rome, Andrew Heath and Mikosa de Resistance, Las Holas and Daisy Rickman. Check the show notes for the full playlist. Tina Antolini provided the voice of the newscaster. The series producer of Blood Memory is Meera Kumar. Robin Amer is our managing editor. Additional reporting by Bryan Krantz and Anya Schultz. Fact checking by Nicole Pasulka and Visuals by Orla McCarty Love and radio is a labor of love and radio and made possible thanks to our members with extra special thanks to Abominable Snow Woman, Casey and the Sunshine Band, Mark Dunkearoos, AA Ron Halva, Jackie Luik, Keith, Joey Pompom, Daniel Paul and Menino, ally of forgotten Kindness and ruined spirits, Christopher Guest, Bill Jason, Vivaciousness, mark Alex Gold, Audrey2 and if you'd like to join the fine group of people, people who make love and radio happen, head on over to loveandradio.org to join us on Patreon. Or if you or if you listen in Apple Podcasts, just subscribe right in the app. I'm Nicholas Sardine. Punch Punch Vanderkolk. Thanks for listening.

[Michael Thompson]

Oh.

[Ariel]

Hope soon to find my way home.

[Michael Thompson]

Sa. Soon to find my way.

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

Coming up on the next and final episode of Blood Memory.

[Ariel]

He's the type of person you burn his house down, he'll build it up again. I can't do it. I'm done.

[Michael Thompson]

When I was paroled, we thought it was over. That's it. We're out of the mix.

[Ariel]

He's innocent. He's got a good attorney. That's all in our favor. But let's Like I said, anything can happen.

[Nick Van Der Kolk]

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