Love and Radio: “Journey Into Manhood” (March 1, 2023)

Episode Overview

This powerful episode of Love and Radio, hosted by Nick van der Kolk, centers on David Matheson—a former leader and practitioner in the movement for gay conversion therapy, particularly through retreats like “Journey Into Manhood.” With raw honesty, Matheson charts the trajectory of his life: growing up in a strict LDS (Mormon) environment, struggling with same-sex attraction, becoming a proponent and practitioner of reparative therapy, and ultimately coming out as a gay man. The episode weaves together reminiscence, deep regret, and new understanding, offering profound insight into the personal and communal costs of conversion therapy.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Early Life in the LDS Church

• Religious Context and Internalized Shame
  • Matheson describes his upbringing in Utah where the LDS Church’s teachings shaped daily life and identity, especially regarding sexuality.
  • Spencer W. Kimball, then LDS president, is recounted as “sweet” and “gentle”—except when discussing homosexuality, which he called “an ugly sin” ([05:24]).
  • Matheson’s response was denial; he couldn’t even admit his feelings to himself because of such intense cultural and spiritual condemnation.

“This is so bad. I can't even admit to myself that the feelings that I have are that.”
—David Matheson ([05:29])

• Discovery of Sexual Identity
  • First aware of his same-sex attractions around age 13–15 but only accepted he was gay at 23.
  • Reminisces about furtive glances and powerful crushes during his adolescence ([06:40]).

2. Confession, Marriage, and Church Pressure

• Annual LDS Interviews and Confession
  • Matheson is expected to confess sexual “transgressions” to his bishop.
  • He bravely attempts to disclose not just masturbation but also experimenting with anal stimulation and same-sex attraction ([08:40]).

“I literally could not speak. … He finally ventured a guess. ‘Have you put something in your anus?’”
—David Matheson ([08:40])

• Meeting and Marrying Peggy
  • Meets Peggy at Brigham Young University; whirlwind romance and quick engagement.
  • Early in the marriage, Matheson discloses his attractions to men.
  • Peggy responds with compassion and a desire to make things work ([11:45]).

“Her message was, ‘I'm still with you. Let's go forward and we'll make it work.’”
—David Matheson ([12:24])

3. Conversion Therapy: Theory and Practice

• Working with Joseph Nicolosi & Reparative Therapy
  • Introduced to “reparative therapy” (not “conversion therapy”), which posits all are born heterosexual and homosexuality stems from family dysfunction ([15:12]).
  • Matheson embodies Nicolosi’s “classic triadic relationship”: distant father, over-involved mother, lack of male peer bonding ([16:20]).

“I was a poster child for his theory.”
—David Matheson ([16:54])

• Becomes Nicolosi’s assistant, later opens his own clinic ("Center for Gender Wholeness") and writes a book.
• Explains he could “privilege the heterosexual side” and “sublimate” homosexual desire ([16:54]).
• Frames his work as motivated by helping others, creating “wholeness”—yet, in retrospect, he questions the cost of that approach.

4. The “Journey Into Manhood” Retreat

• Retreat Format and Exercise Descriptions
  • Men arrive nervously at nature camps; greeted warmly, asked deep introspective questions ([19:40]).
  • Activities:
    • Writing and surrendering things to a fire.
    • Candlelit ceremonies about being a light in the community.
    • “Guts work”—confrontational psychodrama to reenact and “win” over past trauma ([22:56]).
    • “Father energy”: Men comfort each other in group hugs, sometimes taking on parental/child roles.
    • Notably, a controversial exercise where men stand naked in a circle, confronting body shame and striving for non-sexual acceptance ([21:22]).
  • Matheson describes a cathartic moment from a retreat where he is symbolically buried with his (living) father and “sons,” realizing generational emotional deadness, leading to a powerful awakening ([00:34]).

“We've got three fucking generations of men here, dead. And that's when I exploded… It was like this rebirth experience.”
—David Matheson ([02:35])

5. Personal Contradictions & Intimacy

• Relationship with Another Man
  • During his leadership of Journey Into Manhood, Matheson begins a deeply intimate—if nonsexual—relationship with a man ([23:09]).
  • They live together, share deep connection and physical closeness, but set boundaries short of orgasm; Matheson claims this met their needs without being “sexual” as strictly defined.

“It was about closeness, physical closeness, intimacy, connection.”
—David Matheson ([26:44])

• Realizes the depth of his love and care: “I never feel that with my wife… something has been missing from my side of the marriage.” ([27:30])

6. Coming Out and Public Fallout

• Disclosure to His Wife and the Public
  • Recalls the “hellish” conversation coming out to his wife: intent to divorce and live as a gay man ([29:06]).
  • News breaks rapidly after Wayne Besen (Truth Wins Out) calls; Matheson’s story goes international, stirring controversy and anger ([30:17]).
  • The gay rights community and former clients demand accountability, labeling his past work predatory and damaging ([31:47]).

7. Reflection, Regret, and Painful Realization

• Internal Conflicts about Harm
  • Matheson grapples deeply with regret:
    • Admits that, whether by repeating a lie of “not being attracted” or by living closeted, he and others were denying their truths ([34:12]).
    • Recognizes the harm—especially for single men who didn’t have the “buffer” of a straight spouse—that his and others’ efforts perpetuated ([37:02]).
    • Describes a wish to grieve with those he hurt by encouraging them to “tell this lie” to themselves.

“We were giving morphine to these amputees because otherwise they were just going to be sitting there in pain. But…we are helping them continue to tell this lie to themselves.”
—David Matheson ([36:45])

• Ultimately, concludes, “As much good as it does for men… we all meant well, but it didn’t have to be that way.” ([39:40])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments with Timestamps

• On the harm of conversion therapy:

  “All you've done is move where you tell the lie. … That's where the lie was.”
  —David Matheson ([34:22])

• On the cathartic retreat moment:

  “I found strength in me that I didn’t know was there…like this rebirth experience. …Did I get what I was looking for? I didn’t know what I was looking for, but I got life change.”
  —David Matheson ([02:35])

• On deep regret for past actions:

  “If I let myself go into that regret, that's going to be a bottomless well. …I wish I could sit down with them and grieve that together.”
  —David Matheson ([39:10])

• On intimacy and unfulfilled partnership:

  “I realized I never feel that with my wife. …I think that tells me something about who I should be in a relationship with.”
  —David Matheson ([28:20])

Timestamps for Major Segments

• Retreat “guts work” & emotional breakthrough: [00:34]–[03:00]
• Growing up Mormon / LDS Church influence: [03:29]–[05:41]
• First experiences of same-sex attraction: [05:56]–[07:52]
• Marriage, confession, and early struggles: [10:42]–[13:58]
• Introduction to and defense of reparative therapy: [14:15]–[18:46]
• Journey Into Manhood retreat details: [18:46]–[23:09]
• Romantic/Intimate relationship with another man: [23:09]–[29:02]
• Coming out to his wife and public response: [29:02]–[32:36]
• Critique, regret, and final reflections: [34:05]–[39:40]

Tone & Style

The episode is crafted with Love and Radio's characteristically immersive sound design and unflinching honesty. Matheson’s tone is reflective, at times painfully candid, mixing sorrow and careful, belated candor. The questions from the interviewer are empathetic but persistent, pressing on hard truths with understanding and precision.

Summary Takeaway

“Journey Into Manhood” is both a personal reckoning and an exploration of the psychological and communal costs wrought by the ex-gay movement. David Matheson’s story serves as a rare, complex portrait of a man who once tried to suppress and "heal" his own sexuality and led others to do the same, only to discover and finally accept himself as gay—amidst a trail of regret and a longing for communal healing.