Marriage is a Religion

Summary

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Love and Radio | “Marriage is a Religion”

Host: Nick van der Kolk
Date: July 20, 2023

Episode Overview

This emotionally charged season finale follows the story of Sarah and her ill-fated marriage to David, exploring the complexities of love, partnership, and the existential voids that drive human behavior. The episode adopts a deeply introspective tone, moving from the giddy expectations of online dating, through the development and collapse of a marriage, to a harrowing act of violence and its tragic aftermath. Central to the narrative is the notion that marriage itself can feel like a faith — something to be practiced, persisted in, and reckoned with, even in the absence of certainty or sustained passion.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Online Beginnings and the Appeal of “Comfort”

• Sarah recounts meeting David on a dating site, and how his unique, boastful (“two truths and a lie” that were all true) but enigmatic profile stood out.
  • “He was so nice and so not the prick that I thought he was on his profile. Very humble and really smart and gentleman.” (03:01 — Sarah)
• She describes the initial appeal as “comfort” and “deep sense of comfort” rather than a romantic spark:
  • “I didn’t marry him because I felt that chemical connection. I married him because I wanted him to be my life partner.” (06:25 — Sarah)

2. Marriage as Ritual and Work

• Sarah shares a perspective she heard from a cousin:
  • “A lot of marriage is like a religion. You just have to wake up every morning and kind of say that you believe in it. And a lot of it is just actual work versus this feeling that you have.” (07:25 — Sarah)
• She boils down the gamble of marriage:
  • “What are you gambling? Who you both become as people. What the other person makes you.” (07:57 — Sarah)

3. David’s Inner World: Nihilism and Isolation

• Through passages of David’s journals, the episode explores a man of exceptional intellect but profound existential despair.
  • “I am a fundamental nihilist... I have found no support for religious beliefs of any kind, neither morality nor purpose in the universe. With these conclusions before me, I’m left to ask, why live?” (09:00 — David, journal excerpt)
• David perceives love — as described in Plato’s Symposium — as his only possible anchor:
  • “The force that rules my life is love... my idea of family is that it should be a well of life, truth and love, and one that would anchor my love and give it purpose.” (11:01 — David, journal excerpt)
• Sarah describes David’s intense work ethic and singular focus on career advancement, to the point of emotional neglect:
  • “It became more difficult for him not to work as intensely as he had been. And then it also became important for him to also try for the next level, which was the last level in his company.” (11:41 — Sarah)

4. Signs of Emotional Disconnection and Acting “Normal”

• David reflects on his inability to authentically act relaxed or friendly, only amplifying traits he already possesses.
  • “I generally am the smartest person in the room, objectively speaking. But I was drawing a real sentiment. That is why I can’t act like an easygoing, gregarious person. I’ve got just about none of that inside me from which I can draw.” (13:50 — David, journal)
• Sarah is not surprised by this, though interviewers are shocked by his self-awareness and calculated social performance.

5. The Breaking Point: Therapy, Revelation, and Violence

• The couple attends marriage therapy, during which David discloses a large payment to his ex-wife, straining Sarah’s already tenuous sense of security.
  • “David casually mentioned that he had given his ex wife $50,000 to help make her go away...” (17:54 — Sarah)
• That night, after Sarah retreats to their room, an attempted murder occurs:
  • “He put a bag over my head... At a certain point... I kept punching from behind into his groin... He was on the ground, completely out of breath. I took off the bag and was standing up over him.” (20:08 — Sarah)
• David’s behavior immediately after is described as “detached,” searching for a trigger lock key before taking their van and later dying by suicide.
  • “They found his body a couple hours later.” (23:54 — Sarah)

6. Aftermath: Grief, Guilt, and Searching for Normalcy

• The investigation reveals David had researched suicide and methods for making murder appear as such.
  • “We found a bag of tubing, a canister of ether and some gas masks... hundreds and hundreds of searches for how to make asphyxiation look like suicide.” (24:10 — Sarah)
• Sarah describes the complexity of her grief, especially as David’s family blames or doubts her account.
  • “The hardest is being judged by David’s family and David’s ex wife as being culpable in this. And I’m not... I didn’t make him do what he did.” (26:11 — Sarah)
• Despite the trauma, she maintains some compassion for David:
  • “I think he loved me. And that might be why when I talk about the way it all ended, I am more compassionate than I think most people would be.” (29:32 — Sarah)

7. Moving Forward: The Possibility of Happiness

• Sarah shares how she has started a new relationship with a supportive, “nice” man, describing both her wariness and hope for “something great again”:
  • “He’s just been there and it really forced me to accept the possibility of something great again.” (31:53 — Sarah)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On marriage as ritual:
  • “A lot of marriage is like a religion. You just have to wake up every morning and kind of say that you believe in it.” (07:25 — Sarah)
• On existential despair:
  • “I have found no support for religious beliefs of any kind, neither morality nor purpose in the universe. With these conclusions before me, I’m left to ask, why live?” (09:00 — David, journal)
• On rationalizing violence:
  • “He thought about it and input and output. Cost benefit. All of us would somehow be better with me gone. And the second best was if he were gone.” (28:47 — Sarah)
• On being judged:
  • “The hardest is being judged by David’s family and David’s ex wife as being culpable in this. And I’m not... I didn’t make him do what he did.” (26:11 — Sarah)
• On her new partner:
  • “He’s just this nice person and he’s funny and loyal and patient... it really forced me to accept the possibility of something great again.” (31:53 — Sarah)

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Important Timestamps

• 01:02–06:25 – Sarah discusses meeting David, dating, early impressions, and settling for comfort over chemistry.
• 07:04–09:00 – David’s journal entries reveal his loneliness, nihilism, and search for meaning.
• 11:41–14:48 – Insights into David’s work-driven nature and social struggles.
• 17:54–21:56 – The pivotal therapy session and the night of the attack.
• 22:13–24:06 – 911 call, David leaving, and his subsequent suicide.
• 24:10–26:11 – Aftermath: evidence found, family dispute, Sarah’s emotional state.
• 29:32–32:56 – Sarah’s conflicted compassion and new hopeful relationship.

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Tone and Language

The episode is unflinching, honest, and introspective, capturing both the cerebral and emotionally raw reflections of Sarah as she processes trauma and attempts to find meaning — or at least function — in its aftermath. David's own words reveal a chilling, intellectualized detachment, making Sarah's measured empathy and resilience all the more poignant.

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Summary

“Marriage is a Religion” moves from an account of love as solace to the devastation of intimate violence, haunted by the philosophical void beneath David’s outwardly successful life. It is about the rituals we use to anchor ourselves, the risks we take in trusting others, and the impossibility of truly knowing those closest to us. The episode ends on the fragile note of renewal, as Sarah, changed by trauma, tentatively builds something new from the wreckage.

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Transcript

[Nick]

Hey there, it's Nick. This episode is the finale of our latest season. I'm going to be publishing a bit less frequently here in the public feed for the next few months, although I will be posting episodes as they're completed in our Patreon feed. But don't go anywhere because I'm hard at work on season 10 of Love and Radio, which features some of the richest, most complicated stories I have ever worked on, some of which have been years in the making. I'll also continue to be publishing brand new weekly episodes of the Secrets hotline [e-mail] now, this episode is one of the more emotionally difficult stories I've worked on. It can be pretty upsetting, so if you're a sensitive listener, please use your discretion. I have altered the subject's voice to protect her identity, and that might make it sound a little bit weird and a little hard to hear sometimes. So I very much recommend that you listen with headphones on in a quiet space. Thanks.

[Sarah]

Dharmony has these things that you have to answer on your profile page, which is something like your favorite books, your likes and dislikes. What was your first pet? I mean, just innocuous questions. And there are a bunch of them. And he just ignored the questions and had at the top said, let's play two truths and a lie. They weren't things like, I like pasta. They were things like, I want a medal in the Junior Olympics, or, my family used to live in the Governor's Mansion. I used to work for George Clooney. And then when you got to the very bottom of the profile page, it said, all of them are the truth.

[Interviewer]

So he messaged you first?

[Sarah]

Yeah. I don't remember what he said, but I remember asking him what qualifies him for the Special Olympics. I told my friend that I was gonna go out with someone who was in a Special Olympics, and he was appalled. And she didn't say, why would you do that? And I remember he was responding as though, like, who am I to judge? I was like, well, if you lost a toe in some accident, you know, who am I to judge? He was actually in the Junior Olympics. He won a medal for swimming. But I had read Special Olympics. My attention to detail was completely not there yet. I was still to go out with him because he had to be better than what I had come from.

[Nick]

So what was.

[Interviewer]

What was your first date like?

[Sarah]

It was very simple. We went out for a cocktail at a small, little cute bar. And he was so nice and so not the prick that I Thought he was on his profile, very humble and really smart and gentleman. He asked a few questions, listened very intently, and then you could see the wheels turning, you know, the machinations just kind of upstairs. There's just something very open and earnest about him. He said something like, there's something in your profile that I didn't need to ask you about. And I was wondering, you aren't frigid, are you by any chance? He was genuinely curious about it. It wasn't any kind of judgment. It was just, okay, so you're frigid. I really did not know how to respond. Just like, no, why would you think that? But he explained why there's two sections in Harmony, Must haves and Deal Breakers. And I think one of them I marked sexually obsessed. I seemed like a bad thing, so I chose it. And he interpreted that as being, I didn't like in Tennessee at. And in my retort to him, I didn't answer the question. But everyone that I had seen on their profile had listed that Dealbreaker was being a racist. And he hadn't listed that. And so I was like, are you a racist? He said something like, that's obviously wrong. I wouldn't put that down. I thought he was a really nice person and I liked him. He's kind of a badass. Where he lived in the Alaska mole ranch for six weeks by himself. He wanted to learn French, so he lived in France for about six months and did the same with Spanish. He was taking graduate level physics class his first year in college. He was smart on a level, it was very, very linear, but really beautiful to watch. People really respected him and he was one of the world's leading brain powers in this field. It was really inspiring. I was so proud of being with someone like that. I saw him angry maybe twice. The second time he was angry, he threw a pillow on our bed and he said, I was just trying that out to see if that would have any effect on changing the outcome of the way we fight. One of the first times he kissed me, we were in the kitchen and he just looked at me at the end. I'm overflowing with happiness. I just started laughing. I just like, what the fuck? And he started laughing too. And he said, yeah, that's just my thing. He would catch himself doing that. So he would just say like, the dinner's good. I'm overflowing my happiness. And then he would say something as a palo with emotion about the cilantro. Whatever. I used to work with a guy in my office who was A very elegant man. And he had the most bitch in shoes. And David had the exact same kind of shoes. And I just remember looking down in meetings and just staring at his shoes and thinking just how. How much I loved him and how such a cute bang bang, how elegant, thoughtful and smart he was. And it was kind of reflective in those shoes. And he bought those shoes every six months in three different colors. And that's the only style that he wore. And I remember looking at those shoes and thinking, yeah, okay, I'm kind of smitten. I was definitely ready to settle down and to have a more stable life with a partner and thought he was the one.

[Interviewer]

So he just checked the boxes.

[Sarah]

I didn't marry him because I felt that chemical connection. I married him because I felt this really deep sense of comfort and because I wanted him to be my life partner.

[Interviewer]

Did you feel like you were in love with him?

[Sarah]

I guess yes. Not initially. Not within the first, you know, month that I loved who he was. Yeah, I was very much in love with him.

[David]

My love. Sigh. There's nothing in this world that I'd rather do than come home to you after a long day and eat pho together, curl up together in bed under warm sheets, watch something tasteful and inspirational on tv, roll around with you and fall deeply, blissfully asleep in your arms.

[Sarah]

My cousin and his wife once told me that, you know, a lot of marriage is like a religion. You just have to wake up every morning and kind of say that you believe in it. And a lot of it is just actual work versus this feeling that you have. It's like paying homage to the institution itself versus the this feeling. I just think it's all a gamble, really.

[Interviewer]

Like what are you gambling?

[Sarah]

Who you both become as people. What the other person makes you.

[David]

It occurs to me that I open a book seeking someone to relate to, someone who has thoughts and experiences similar to my own. And I have found perhaps maybe three such people in 22 years in real life that is the dearth of such a community results in a kind of isolation that is the closest I will ever come to loneliness. As a matter of fact, as I write this, I have just considered that it is the lack of people in my life like me that inspires me to expand such effort in this journal, this desperate plea for understanding.

[Sarah]

He was a very smart but very shy and socially awkward kid. And I think it helped him cope by being a smart guy. But then it became purposeless for him just to be the smart person.

[David]

26Th of February, 1996 at midnight I am languishing in what I hope will be the nadir of my life. I am utterly alone in this world and have come to question everything. For a few moments I can find solace and escape at cinema, but the film always ends. I always come back to this. The whole that I live in the hole both is and is not my own making. It is the former. Since there is little in my life that is beyond my control, it is the latter, because there are a few crucial things that are. By almost anyone's standards, I should be considered happy. I don't suffer from poverty, human oppression, lack of freedom, stupidity or ignorance. I should be blissful. Nonetheless, I can't shake the conclusions of my philosophy, and these have led me to a sense of utter purposelessness. I never thought that a blase demeanor could have intellectual foundations or scientific rationale. But that is where I am today. I have found no support for religious beliefs of any kind, neither morality nor purpose in the universe. With these conclusions before me, I'm left to ask, why live? And to conclude further that nothing matters in the slightest.

[Sarah]

I mean, he told me that it was like one of his confessions when we were together. You just said it very matter of factly. I've never told anyone this, but I am a fundamental nihilist and I just didn't process it in any other way than, oh, wow, he has a pretty dark side. I really did sense that it was something that he'd used to cope with the world. He wasn't a tonaton, he wasn't a robot, but he wanted to be, because it was an easier path living that way.

[David]

My background in philosophy is limited, but one work in particular has influenced my thinking so much that it has become a virtual credo in containing what I think to be the most important. That's Plato's Symposium. The force that rules my life is love. Love, as Plato describes it, the quest for what is good and beautiful. The most natural and important object of my love would be a spouse. Not only good and beautiful, but someone with whom I could find and create other things of goodness and beauty. My idea of family is that it should be a well of life, truth and love, and one that would anchor my love and give it purpose.

[Sarah]

After our son was born, it became more difficult for him not to work as intensely as he had been. And then it also became important for him to also try for the next level, which was the last level in his company. He was pretty intensely busy and traveling during the week. It was tough. It was really tough. All he could see the pure focus in his life was making director. And once I hit that level, I won't have to worry about my financial future anymore. It doesn't matter that you know, my marriage is going to be more unstable. My relationships if I my kids will become more unstable. My relationships with my ex wife go down the list. I just need to hit that goal. Hit that goal. Hit that goal.

[David]

There are times when we see something without fully noticing its importance. Later we may realize this, but by then it's often too late for the object has passed or that event is long finished and we cannot apply the attention to it that we wish to. It remains a lost opportunity. So it is with me and a slide that I was shown in a class on the history of Western art. The slide was a photograph of a portrait in marble neck and head only. The subject was Alexander the Great. The hair in his characteristic lion's mane. The hair is what started me on this track. I caught a glimpse of that hair in the mirror. My hair is long now and it flows back from my face in a light reddish brown. A lion's mane in the making. I know I'm not Alexander the Great. I think about my actions too much. Yet I can't know what my future holds. And I gain strength by the day.

[Sarah]

All that's written in his journals are feelings of sadness and loneliness, certainly, but then are quickly rationalized away to rise above. To realize that great men, great leaders, great have all gone through things like this and have risen above and achieved things that Napoleon and Alexander the Great and even Hitler achieved in this world.

[David]

As a closing, a word about acting. In my interview yesterday, I was able to act humble, recognizing the limits of my own intelligence. I acknowledge this was an act. I generally am the smartest person in the room, objectively speaking. But I was drawing a real sentiment. That is why I can't act like an easygoing, gregarious person. I've got just about none of that inside me from which I can draw. I can successfully amplify most traits that I hold to some degree. But I don't even know whether it is possible to convincingly play a part which is totally alien. That leaves me with a few options. Live with making people uneasy because I'm not easy creating going find some kernel of simplicity within myself from which to draw and thus emulate friendliness. Figure out a way to convince people of my being something which I am unequivocally not. Which of the three I haven't the slightest.

[Nick]

Is that surprising to read or Did.

[Sarah]

No.

[Interviewer]

The thing to me, which is quite shocking to hear him say, is that he knows full well he. He is emulating someone who thinks that there's limits to his abilities, that he.

[Sarah]

Has some shred of humility.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Sarah]

Yeah. Is it. Is that associated? Huh? No. No, I don't think it is.

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[Accountant]

And I believe that in the absence of a year end statement, the accountant and my husband and I missed the fact that we had actually made some money in the ackley account.

[Interviewer]

You didn't remember that profit?

[Accountant]

No, I did not remember that profit. I did not. And in fact, as you last night.

[David]

I saw footage of our first lady, Hillary Rodham Clinton during an extraordinary press conference in which she was confronting head on the many allegations of improper financial actions in her past. She was outstanding. She won. She beat the press, beat her accusers with poise, calm precision and intellectual force. Seeing her fight like that, I thought back to my relationship with Stephanie. We had to split for my sake as well as hers because Stephanie was not cut of the stuff to be able to handle the roles that I may have put her in. She would, for her own protection have been holding me back from what I am called to do, for I must lead.

[Sarah]

He did find out that he made director and that kind of relief release that I expected all of us to feel just wasn't there because things were such a mess with everyone.

[Interviewer]

Do you remember where you were when he told you? Like what?

[Sarah]

I had to ask. He didn't tell me. And it was very anecdotal. It was very. Just kind of sad for all of us that finally, finally he got it and look where we are. So we Ended up going to marriage counseling.

[Interviewer]

And would you come home from those counseling sessions feeling a little better about things?

[Sarah]

Most of the time, yeah. Most of the time. We would go out for dinner afterwards and say to each other, talk. That was intense. And it felt like we were moving forward.

[Interviewer]

Can you actually take me through events and maybe starting actually with the couples therapy session that you guys had?

[Sarah]

Yeah. So we went to therapy, and then David casually mentioned that he had given his ex wife $50,000 to help make her go away. She was asking a lot of questions about increases in child support. I was really surprised he would have this relationship with his ex wife that I really wasn't pretty to, and it made me insecure. So I started crying in the session. And he had a hard time understanding why I was crying. I do remember him saying at one point, why would it even matter? I took the money from my prenatal assets. And at that point, I remember the therapist saying, but I don't think that's why she's upset. And then him kind of grabbing his hair in frustration and just saying, I don't know if I'll ever be able to understand what upsets Sarah and what doesn't. And the counselor said, well, I'm helping you get there. On the ride home, we had dinner reservations. I told him that I just didn't feel like going there. I really needed to just go home and kind of lie down. And I remember the look on his face of just. What is the word? And his face caved in a little bit. He looked frightened. And I remember him saying, I know you were upset, but you don't want to go out to dinner. It's been 13 days since we've had any disagreement. It didn't mean anything to me at the time. Looking back, though, I think in his head, it kind of signaled to him that he was going to do something. If we were fighting again or having conflict again, something was going to happen. We have an au pair that helps take care of our children. He'd always greeted her in the same way. Hello, how are you? How was your day? And when we walked into the door, he walked right past her, didn't say hello, grabbed our daughter, who just learned how to walk, and just cuddled with her. He then made me a tray of dinner, which was incredibly sweet. He put a flower on the dinner tray, a glass of wine, and he brought out dinner.

[Interviewer]

Did he do that often?

[Sarah]

He did it once in a while. It was sweet. And after that, I pushed the tray aside enough. I don't Remember if I ate anything. Age never came back to bed. I just heard him pacing back and forth between being in our study and the hallway, kind of around our hallway. I thought he was working or organizing or something. And then I don't know exactly the timing, but I heard him say my name. And my head popped up. And then he put a bag over my head. I. It's even surreal remembering it, that it was a plastic bag. It was all kind of in slow motion. It was just aggravated her head. Must execute plan. It just felt like he was just doing something at a certain point. I don't know, 30 seconds a minute, and then a half. I don't know. A pillow went over my face. He had a vasectomy two weeks, three weeks before. And I knew his groin area was still painful. I was on all fours, so I kept punching from behind into his groin. And I don't know if that was painful enough or he just gave up. I don't know. He was on the ground, completely out of breath. I took off the bag and I was standing up over him. He asked me to come down on the floor with him. Please, just lay down with me. Honey. I'm done. I'm not going to hurt you anymore.

[Interviewer]

Did you want to go to him in that moment?

[Sarah]

Yeah, really badly. So I hesitated. But then I just ran into the study and I locked the door and I called 911.

[911 Operator]

911, where's your emergency? What happened?

[Sarah]

And while I was on 91 1, he kicked the lock off the door. I thought he was gonna come after me, but he didn't really have any interest in me. He was very, very detached at that point. He was in the closet rifling through stuff. And I kept asking him what he was looking for. And he just said, where's the key? Where's the key? Where's the trigger lock key?

[911 Operator]

Where's he at? That's the baby. And where I was.

[Sarah]

I just started begging and pleading. They stopped. He didn't even know if he heard what I was saying. It just was bouncing off of him. And once his back was towards me, I just ran out. I don't know if I dropped the phone or hung up or I think it was on speakerphone. I don't know. I picked up my son first. Then I picked up my daughter from her crib. I just ran to the neighbor's house, knock out the darkness of that. I was so insane, I just thought, my husband's trying to kill me.

[911 Operator]

Can you stage meds for that domestic, please? Can you stage meds for that domestic, please? No, but he hasn't done through it during the season.

[Sarah]

And then at some point, David took the minivan and left. They found his body a couple hours later.

[Interviewer]

How are you doing? There's only been eight months, right?

[Sarah]

Yeah. It took me a while even to acknowledge that he tried to hurt me. That the way that my brain operated from that point for about a month, about six weeks was just. He committed suicide. That was the story, that he committed suicide. And we found a lot of weird stuff. We found a bag of tubing, a canister of ether and some gas masks that were in the study. I ended up getting it to the police and they came and got it and there's nothing really they could have done with that. He was dead. There's nothing they could do with it. There was a backpack. It had two fake IDs in it, some cash. It had a computer and there was nothing on the computer itself. There was one text file and hundreds and hundreds of searches for how to make asphyxiation look like suicide. Searches for what an ME would find on a suspicious suicide. Sorry, an Emmy, a medical examiner. He had made a spreadsheet of every medicine, prescription and over the counter drug that we had in our medicine cabinet and every lethal dose of those medicines, including Benadryl. The lethal dose for Benadryl for children and pets. We don't have a pet, so maybe it's just a happenstance or something, I don't know. But I found Warren Pestle in his study. That fascia is still there because the cops didn't really want it. And I don't know what to do with it. I haven't taken it down. But there's ground up medicine. I don't know what it is. It's white powder in a mortar and pestle still sitting there.

[Interviewer]

Hasn't been analyzed or.

[Sarah]

No. I guess that would be something to do. But why?

[Interviewer]

Why did you approach us?

[Sarah]

I don't know. I guess how. How do people get through their everyday without sharing it? I don't know what are people's. Real normal? I don't. It makes you kind of. It makes me kind of crazy not knowing how people just deal with their everyday. And I know my every day is nowhere near what most people's every day is, but you know, getting up and functioning is so hard. And if I can. If I can do it, you know, other people who feel like it's tough. 10. I think what has been the hardest is being judged by David's family and David's ex wife as being culpable in this. And I'm not. I'm not blameless. I mean that I didn't make him do what he did. And the sense that I get is that I surmounted. And right now I'm being sued for everything. Am I the ex wife? And it does it. It's like picking a scab. I constantly have to relive and analyze the state of my marriage again because of all of the lawsuits that are being filed.

[Interviewer]

I mean, does his family have no empathy for the fact that he tried to kill you?

[Sarah]

I don't think they believed me. To his father, I asked, do you think I did this? And I think he said, I don't know what to think. And when they didn't believe me, I almost didn't believe. Was easier not to believe because it's just not a believable thing. Yeah. I know that they've called the police station several times trying to get a copy of the police report, and they won't give it to them as not being a victim. I do have a copy of what I was able to get from the police station. The course of litation we're going through, it just. It is a horrible situation, but it's not something that I would create or could create him in. Even if he did want me to die, it wasn't because he was an evil friend. He wouldn't say this, but it's not because he thought I was evil or he was evil. He thought about it and input and output. Cost benefit. All of us would somehow be better with me gone. And the second best was if he were gone.

[Interviewer]

I like to think of myself as a fairly logical, rational person, but I can't ever imagine being in a situation where trying to take someone else's life is the rational decision.

[Sarah]

Why doesn't. He had the ability that you and I have to connect to people.

[Interviewer]

Right. But there's. It's not just a disconnect from people.

[Nick]

But it's also like viewing his life.

[Interviewer]

As inherently more valuable than anyone else.

[Sarah]

Yeah. On data, he was more valuable. He supported five children. He was way smarter than I was. He was a professional, productive member of society making huge impacts on governments and countries and companies. And I would. Yeah. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Do you think he loved you?

[Sarah]

Yeah. I really do. And that might be why when I talk about the way it all ended, I am more compassionate than I think most people would be. And who knows, maybe. Maybe that's my own brain protecting myself from the idea of living with someone for six years and them faking loving me and that person being empty inside.

[David]

My love. Have a wonderful day. Relax, enjoy, feel better. I'll be home at 3:30 and we can have the whole long with Sarah's to do list. Putter nap, snack, veg veg, nipple nap, soak a working list. Sleeping eight hours every night. Taking a 90 minute nap in the afternoon. Waking up next to you every morning. Making long sweet love to you. Doing that again. Thinking about spending the next 40 years with you. I've watched you sleep serenely and it's given me great joy. Now I leave you for a few hours to do my work. You are a smooth and beautiful creature. You captivate my heart. Love your man.

[Sarah]

Right before I pulled the trigger, he sent me basically like I have it right here. Please know that I tried everything I can.

[David]

But I tried everything I could.

[Sarah]

And I couldn't take it anymore.

[David]

And I couldn't take it anymore. I love you but I just didn't know how to make it work. Raise our children well, they are lucky to have. You.

[Sarah]

Know. I mean he really tried. He really tried because he loved me. I was still in love with him when he died. And I don't know that I am anymore. I think I have a lot of respect for who he was. I still do. But I think the longing for him as a unique individual is just not there anymore. And I'm grateful for it. I met someone and he has put a brightness to my day that I never thought or expected. And I'm such a bee to him. I hover around him whenever he's around the kids because I want to know everything he says to them. Like if it's not me then you're gonna mess with my kids. Or like. And he's very respectful of it and just. He knows he's a good person and he's okay with me challenging him on that. I mean he's from the Midwest. He's like everything he says he means. He's just this nice person and he's funny and loyal and patient. He's a softball coach for his 12 year old daughters and softball team and he had a very extensive background search and he gave it to me. But he's just. He's just been there and it really forced me to accept the possibility of something great again.

[Interviewer]

How'd you guys meet?

[Sarah]

Online. And yes, this is maybe not the same as fluttering light, but the acknowledgement of it. How difficult our life would have been and how difficult our life was. There are moments where I do find myself feeling very free. It's really fucked up. I know.

[Nick]

That's it for Love and Radio. For playlists of all the music you hear, please Visit our website loveandradio.org Many of the tracks you heard on this episode come from the label Revenge who are lovely. Their website is igetrvng.com love and radio is a labor of Love and Radio and made possible thanks to our supporters on Patreon with extra special thanks to Ali, Mothra Perry, Casey, Pamela Anderson, Chakrit Footaidon, Sudachan, Bam Bam. Dan Palmino, Jacqueline Potato Leak, Jason V for Vendetta, Joe Palm, Harry Mark Dunksason, Nick Grylls, Sam Huffman. Huffman and Sandru. Nick actually has to read this. Schroeder. If you want to join the group of wonderful human beings who make Love and radio happen, you can help keep the show going by becoming a member [e-mail] Member, I'm Nicholas Sardine. Punch Punch. Vander Kolk. Thanks for listening.

[Sarah]

How's it.