Narrator/Host (2:35)

Nice to meet you.

Larry Garrett (2:35)

Hello. Thank you so much. So we walk into the place first, and I look in here, and it's kind of like all dark, black walls, black ceiling. And she's leading us, and we stop, and she said, would you like to stop here and pray with us, please?

Translator/Guide (2:54)

Would you pray?

Larry Garrett (2:55)

Pray?

Narrator/Host (2:55)

Yes.

Larry Garrett (2:56)

Okay, let's pray. So we stop, and she says, allow me to tell you what happened here. First place she takes us is to a place where there's a big hole in the ceiling. So it's like a strong wall for protection, Right. And there's rebarb steel rods that they put in concrete hanging from the ceiling. With this opening about 6 foot in diameter. This opening is where a bomb came in.

Translator/Guide (3:26)

Guided by Laser and the weight of.

Larry Garrett (3:29)

Each one and the heat of the bombs carbonized all the people against the walls and the ceilings of this building. The walls had imprints of people and the walls looked like negatives of people. There was a woman holding a baby, and you could see the whole image of that of her holding her baby.

Translator/Guide (3:59)

This is a girl. I'm sure this is a girl, but who is that?

Larry Garrett (4:04)

The youngest children were at the top level. The ceiling was strewn with hands and fingers carbonized to the ceiling of young children. Little hands. The images on the walls were flat, like pictures, like paintings. The hands on the ceiling were like pieces of hands and fingers that were carbonized like a piece of charcoal. It was horrible sight.

Translator/Guide (4:33)

You see the part of their bodies make it like dust because so much.

Larry Garrett (4:37)

Oh, yes. Oh, yes. How many people were in here?

Translator/Guide (4:42)

Among 422, only 14. The survivor.

Larry Garrett (4:48)

400 people are in this building, women and children 16 and younger. And these people that are in this building are here to be protected from the bombings of the first Gulf War, February 1991. This was done by these bombs from the Americas. Americans who thought this was a artillery station that held guns and things like this. She says four days later, the Americans sent a message here. And they said, so sorry, we made mistake.

Nick Vanderkolk (5:32)

You're listening to Love and Radio. I'm Nick Vanderkolk. Today's episode no Bad News, featuring Larry Garrett.

Larry Garrett (6:01)

My accountant says it's too much like a home. You know, you have to have more. Look like a business. But I love it here. The whole building is triangles. Yeah, rooms are triangles here and bathrooms are triangles here. I probably have every award that's been recognized in hypnosis. I don't know what that means, but it doesn't pay my bills. But it's recognition. This one here is like the Oscar of hypnosis.

Interviewer (Sarah Geiss) (6:23)

And then you have these lava lamps ever which has really warmed up during our couple hours here.

Larry Garrett (6:28)

They're kind of hypnotic, aren't they? Now when you close your eyes and just imagine you could just feel your thoughts in the front of your forehead, right in the center of your forehead, drifting way back, just like a lava lamp, so slow into the back of your head. And so I kind of use it. And they're sitting there watching that image before we start. So they kind of get into it. One of these days we're going to hypnotize you. You want me to tell you how I stopped watching the news? That's a great story. Must be early 80s. I'd look at the weather each evening to see what the weather was going to be. So when watching the weather, you'd watch the news. And I don't remember the man's name, but I always remember it was on channel two, this little short guy with dark rimmed glasses. And he looked at the camera. It was a rainy, crazy night. So I was like, should I bring an umbrella? Should I wear boots? Should I wear a raincoat? So the camera zooms up on his face and he looks at the camera and he's got this serious look. And he says, don't think tomorrow is going to be a good day. Right? I said, what was that? It hit me, listen to the news and they will tell you what to worry about today. It's the biggest communication that's going on among people. Did you hear about this? Did you hear about that? All the things that we hear on the news that we have no control over. He spoke to my subconscious mind. He didn't speak to my logical mind that it was going to rain tomorrow. He spoke to my subconscious mind that tomorrow is not going to be a good day. And I just say, okay, now lay back. And I don't read the newspapers. I don't watch the news. Hold that breath. Somebody say, well, don't you ever have bad days? No. No, I don't. I used to have bad hours, bad days. I remember having bad weeks. I even remember having bad years. I want you to focus on that left leg and feel that left leg. I'm going to die. Tips of your toes on up to your knees. And the reason I think that is because I don't have angst in my system. So the interesting thing about this visit to Sufis was that none of these people I was with, none of them have ever been. The end of March 2001, sitting in my office and I receive a phone call. He's really Iraqi, if I wanted to go. But he's in France. He's a businessman. After he was a neurosurgeon. Business that he's in. I think all he told me was that he would like to talk to me about the possibility of me going to Iraq to hypnotize a patient of his who was a prominent businessman. I'm listening to him and already I'm creating in my mind what I'm going to do with this patient of his that I haven't even met. I feel my excitement generating in my body. Like, oh, boy, this is it. But I'm trying to be cool on the phone and I'm talking to him cool. And I said, okay, Dr. Shali, I look forward to meeting you whenever we have the opportunity. And he says, how about tomorrow? Of course, I don't know anything about Iraq. Nothing. The only thing I visualize with Baghdad is flying carpets. So the next morning, I brought him in my office. He took his hat and his coat off, and he had on a little cheap suit. We go through some little gentle formalities of getting to know each other. And he's here for a medical convention downtown. And while he's here, he was asked to look for somebody who understands hypnosis well. And so then I kind of segued into tell me about your patient. His patient was a prominent businessman who had been injured. His injury had caused some psychological, emotional discomforts. His injury had caused him to feel as though walking was difficult, but his medical staff had determined that there was nothing wrong with his body, that walking would be okay. He even expressed to me he was a little skeptical about hypnosis, but that his patient wanted an American hypnotist to come there. I'm listening to Dr. Shali. I could sense a desperation in his person, and I don't know why the desperation is there later. I know why, but I don't know why now. And I could sense that he's trying to convince me to go to Baghdad because he doesn't know that I'm already willing to go to Baghdad. Everybody I would mention this to would freak out. Literally freak out. And then when I went on the Internet and I typed in travel to Baghdad, big bold type across the whole screen, it says, baghdad is dangerous. If you are there, leave immediately. Don't travel to Baghdad. I became even more a little paranoid here. And then I have a friend who is a travel agent. I said, you know anything about traveling to Baghdad? Nobody goes to Baghdad. She says that she gets real because nobody goes there. And I keep hearing all this stuff. Eight out of 10 people screamed at me not to go. What, are you worried I'm not going to come back? Yeah, yeah, we're worried you're going to die. You're going to get killed. And then I got on a plane and left for Baghdad.

Narrator/Host (11:39)

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Larry Garrett (12:30)

Relax. So slow. If you begin to think of a relationship that's very significant to you and you say, oh my God, this is exciting. I like this person.

Larry Garrett (12:43)

So the person does one little thing.

Larry Garrett (12:46)

That somebody did to you a number of years ago and immediately you stop trusting that person, or immediately you start building up this anxiety that this isn't going to work. Then we have to wonder, did you sabotage the success in this because of your past conditioning? I remember a phrase my mom used to tell me all the time, that's the way we've always done it. Isn't that a good metaphor when we're under stress? To do things as we've always done, when we always do what we've always done, we always get what we always got. Time to stop doing what we've always done. Time to start doing what we know will work.

Larry Garrett (13:36)

Okay, first recording. I'm on my way to Amman and probably about an hour away on the plane right now. No planes were legally allowed to fly over Iraq. You had to fly to Jordan and you would then drive through the desert at night to get to Baghdad, which was 500 miles. I get off the plane and you know how all these people sit there with signs with names on the signs. So I see the sign that says Mr. Garrett. Oh, that's me. That's me. I finally saw something that looked familiar. So here's this young guy, really vibrant young guy, about 30 years old, and he's just like full of energy. And he says, hi, Mohammed. He shakes hands with me and he's all excited to see me. Like I'm a long lost friend. I never met him before. So he says, follow me. We get in this Mercedes and we're traveling down the highways of Jordan now. Such an experience to be in the Middle East. You ever been in the Middle East? The Middle east is like a different world. People are walking alongside the road with these long white gowns on. You know, Jesus christ was born 50 miles from here. No kidding. I could just feel goosebumps on my Arm, you know, like Elvis Presley was, you know, down the street here, you know. No kidding. What really was exciting was to see Kentucky Fried Chicken written in Arabic. The same logo and everything, but written in Arabic. We've been driving almost one hour. How fast time goes by when there's interaction of some sort going on. I should stop talking so everybody could sleep though.

News Reporter (15:29)

Keeps the driver awake though, right?

Larry Garrett (15:32)

I say, well, why are we traveling at night like this? Because the desert's too hot during the day. What are those lights out in the desert? Who lives there? People. So that's the way they were answering me. I think I was excited like a little kid. Does anybody want another throat margins or anything? When we got close to Baghdad, it was about 5 in the morning and it was becoming daylight. So visualize. You walk into this hotel and there's this large reception area and everybody was dressed. Let's not say cheap suits, let's say outdated suits. And I look around and I see pictures of Saddam everywhere. Paintings, portraits of Saddam, Saddam on Ezel, Saddam hanging on the wall, Saddam everywhere. The tile on the entrance of the Al Rashid Hotel had this huge mosaic of the first President Bush with kind of a snarl on his face, like he's angry. I'm thinking, why would they have a picture of an American president? I thought they don't like Americans. Elise says, get some sleep. Make yourself comfortable. We'll call you when we're ready to meet, okay? I sort of felt like a little kid. Okay, go in your room, Sit there until we call you. So I unpacked and I proceeded to do my sightseeing. From the window, I had a wonderful view of Baghdad's streets. The city was waking up. I was feeling the excitement of everything coming to life. Traffic is starting. There's a garbage truck outside loading garbage. A lot of cabs in Baghdad, orange and white cars. Right across the street from me was a soccer field and there were kids there starting to play soccer. About 2 o' clock, I got a phone call in the room. So they said, Mr. Larry? Yes, we are waiting for you downstairs. Okay, So I go downstairs to the lounge area and there's about eight, 10 people sitting at a table waiting for me. All heads turn towards me, they all look at me. I'm a little bit out of my league right now. Oh boy, look at these guys here checking me out. I'm smiling, I'm smiling, I'm relaxed, I'm cool. So I greet them. Hi, I'm here. And so one by one, they introduced themselves. They stood up and Shook hands. They proceeded to tell me as best they could what was going on. And they call him the patient that he had been in a serious situation where he was shot and he had 15 bullets in him. He had gone through many surgeries, and he had been bedridden for almost two years on his back. And that he's walking with a severe stutter, they called it, of his legs shaking every time he began to touch the ground. But yet there's nothing physically left that should stop him or inhibit him from doing this. So I asked, who is this person that I'm going to be hypnotizing? And one of the men said, it's the eldest son of our leader, Saddam Hussein. This is serious stuff. I'm seeing the president of this country's son, you know. And by the way, Uday Hussein was to be the next person in leadership. They didn't run by elections there, they ran. My son's now in charge.

Interviewer (Sarah Geiss) (19:14)

And what did you know about Saddam Hussein?

Larry Garrett (19:16)

About?

Larry Garrett (19:16)

Nothing. Nothing. I knew nothing about Saddam Hussein. I just had heard the name over the years. I didn't know. I just didn't know. And I didn't know anything about his son. We have a philosophy here that says we treat everybody very special. We just don't kiss their butt. So I was not about to do anything different with this guy just because he was Saddam's son than what I would have done with one of the janitors there. You know, to me, he was going to be a person who has asked me to be here, a person who's asked me to come there. And that's what I was going to do. We get in two cars and off we go. We travel for about a mile or so and we go down this long road and we go to this hospital called the VIP hospital. This is where the important people go. And here comes four men dressed in white coats like medical people would look. And about four or five men, big men ensued with guns out. And here comes Uday in the center with a nice silk shirt, nice slacks, walking with crutches. Uday Hussein was a very good looking man. He always had a beard on his face that looked like he had just painted it black, like you couldn't see the hair. But it's called stubble. It was pitch black. His hair was dark black. He was probably about 6 foot 1 or 2. He was 39 years old at the time. Just a good looking guy. Everybody kind of bows to him and they call him, your excellency. Shake hands with him and he says, I'm honored that you're here. Thank you so much. You know, how do you start talking to this guy, you know, Hi, my name's Larry. What's yours? What do you do? You know? So I just pretend like I was visiting with a client that's coming to visit me in my office. And I said, would you like to tell me a little bit about what you want? And, yeah, he's telling me what's been going on. He's telling me how sometime he could walk okay, sometime he can't. His biggest concern and issue of not being able to walk was the fact that he needed to stand in front of his people without a crutch. And I said, well, I have to ask you something. He said, what? I says, hypnosis to me is a very intimate, personal experience. This is not a theatrical performance. We have a lot of people here. This is not going to help the hypnosis experience. He said, oh, okay. He says something in Arabic. And immediately, everybody except two people left. Immediately. I said, wow, that's good. That's good for me. I've got some control here. I've got some respect here. I didn't want anybody to hear what I was saying. So I'd whisper to him, and I'd lean real close to his ear and I'd whisper very quietly, like this was a big secret. It's sort of like speaking to the soul, you know, It's a very, very personal, intimate experience, you know, Nobody speaks to you like a hypnotist other than your mother or a lover. Because hypnosis has this quiet, reassuring, almost a love kind of a talk. Now lay back, take a deep breath. Hold that breath a second or so. And just let your body.

Larry Garrett (22:34)

Body begin to relax.

Larry Garrett (22:36)

Focus on your legs relaxing. Now just feel those legs relaxing. I want you to focus on that left leg and feel that left leg from the tips of your toes on up to your knees, feeling strong. What happened at the end of the hypnosis is his eyes kind of fluttered and he opened his eyes gradually and he smiled and he looked at me. And then he looked at his confidant man and he said something in Arabic, sumani. This confidant man came up, he crossed his arms. He stood there with that kind of posture, like clicking his heels kind of look. And he says, that was good, but next time it must be better. I can feel a little nervousness here. What's this about? So I said, well, this is our first time. Next time it will be better. The day was over. I stayed in the hotel I walked the halls, checked out the gift shops. I watched TV and checked stuff out on the television. Remember, black and white tv, three channels. I think there were some color programs. I turn off the tv, maybe get a book and read, doze a little bit. And then the phone rings. Mr. Larry? Yes. The patient is ready. Okay, be right down. Time. But when the Iraqi football team, for example, lost, Udai would inflict quite incredible punishments on him. Every single day. I've been beating my Fiat and 20 a day. They would lock them in this. In this iron chest and leave them there for hours at a time in the midday sun. He sometimes like to rape. Rape? Yes. Raping is one of his. Let me say hob. This is. He can't sleep with a woman if you don't hit her and see the blood coming out of. The man is being beaten by direct order of Ude, say this change has been made for Uday's view in Prussia.

Interviewer (Sarah Geiss) (25:24)

So I know, you know, you don't like to think about negative things, but something that I've been thinking about as I've been working on the piece is just I've been learning more and more about Uday, what the news has reported about him. And just, you know, there's been a lot of allegations of really brave, brutal things. Before you met him?

Larry Garrett (25:41)

Yeah, before I met him. Right. He was a horrible man. Horrible man. But never once did I hear a bad thing about Saddam or Uday while I was there in Iraq. Never once. Nobody spoke bad about him while I was there. I think they were afraid to speak bad about him. Every night I would go to his house. There would be a different exotic car in front of his house. I don't think I ever saw the same car twice. It was always kind of a ritual. He'd sit on the edge of the bed and this physician would come and take his shoes off. He lays down and he gets himself real comfortable. Clasps his hands together or puts them at his side, and he'd say, okay, I'm ready. You're in his bedroom with a king size bed. And it's got this gaudy red bedspread. It was a satin material. It would look like it belonged to an older woman. At the head of the bed, there's this painting hanging up. It showed a warrior standing on a mountaintop. And he has a young woman in his arm protecting her. And he has a sword in the other hand, and he's fighting off this gigantic bird. I began to use that in my suggestions that he was like a warrior and he was strong, and he could protect people. And he was a good protector because in his perception, remember, he's a leader. He's going to protect his people. And he couldn't protect his people if he's walking with a crotch, he told me. And so I would lean real close and I would whisper to him. Create an image like the warrior in a painting behind your bed. And feel the strength that he has in his. His left leg as he has one leg raised up on that rock. And he has a sword in his hand to protect the woman that he's holding. Feel that left leg becoming so strong. Feel your chest as strong and powerful like the warrior behind your bed. And then I'd get up to his head, I'd take my time, and I'd say, now, the most important part of your body, feel and side of your.

Larry Garrett (27:54)

Mind, the power in your mind to be able to walk well.

Larry Garrett (27:59)

I want you to imagine yourself walking well with confidence and strength, like you did four years ago, five years ago. Feel that memory. Most of the time, we would talk half hour or 45 minutes before the hypnosis. Then after the hypnosis, we would talk for a while, sometime for a couple hours. He often asked me about where I lived. What are the neighborhoods like in Chicago. He told a story about when him and his cousin were in Washington, D.C. and they wanted to go to the Lincoln Memorial. He was about 17 and didn't speak English well. They were sitting on a bench, confused and lost. And he said to me, he always remembered that this woman came up and said to them, do you need assistance? He always remembered how generous she was. And she drove them to the Lincoln Memorial and made sure they got in safely before she left. He remembered how he didn't expect that friendliness from the Americans. And he said to me something interesting. He said, I've always wanted to live in the United States. He says to me one night, would you like to see the workings of God, Allah and the workings of the mind combined and what you could do with both? I said, sure, I'd love to see that. Tell me about it. We go to this mosque, huge wooden door. Somebody opens it for us, and we go on in there. We all sit down in these stuffed chairs. And there are a thousand people there, if not more. All the women and children are in the back. All the men are in the front. There's these men dressed in these white garbs that are traditional to them. And they're telling us a story. It's a story about how thousands of years These men have been able to pray and fast for four, 40 days. And after they pray and they fast for 40 days, drinking only water for 40 days. I bet they've lost a lot of weight. But their consciousness becomes very powerful. They learn to have powers in their body that they could inflict discomforts and not feel pain and even control their bleeding. And now this chanting. And it's going on and on and on and on. And they're turning their heads, like in a circular motion. They're all in a trance, and they're turning their heads, and you can see this glassy look on their eyes. And their hair is long hair. And it's going around in a circle and drumming, drumming, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And the sounds, bom, bom. And that chanting kept getting louder and stronger and louder and stronger. And then like this, boom. Silence. Husky man, bearded man, long hair, maybe balding in the center. He comes up and he's got these large daggers that you might throw at a target. So he takes these daggers and he takes a hammer, a mallet in his other hand. And he holds the dagger on the left side of his head, on top of his head to the left, hammers it in, goes to the right side of his head, and he hammers the dagger in. It stands up. Now he's got two daggers standing up on his head. And he stands there looking at us. I'm freaked. I have seen everything. I have been everywhere. I have seen all kinds of control of the mind. I have seen the mind do things I never believed, but I never saw anybody hammer a dagger in his head. And I'm feeling what this guy did. This guy freaked us all out. He kneels down in front of me. He motions for me to pull the dagger out of his head. The drums are rolling. The. The chanting is going. And this guy is kneeling in front of me, and he wants me to pull it. So I take both hands, one around the handle of the dagger, one around the other hand, and I pull as hard as I can. His head lifts up, pulls away from his shoulders. You can see his neck becoming elongated as I'm pulling on this thing. The dagger is not budging, not pulling. In the meantime, I'm getting this emotional feeling like, oh, wow, wow. What's this about? How come it's not coming out of his head? What's holding this dagger in his head?

Larry Garrett (32:54)

Allah. God.

Larry Garrett (32:57)

So they tell us. You know, there's a guy who's translating stuff, and he's telling us this. And he does some loud yelling, like he pulls out the dagger, and a little blood runs down his forehead. And he does it again, and he pulls out the second dagger.

Larry Garrett (33:19)

Wow.

Larry Garrett (33:24)

We went to see Uday that night, and he says, so, Mr. Larry, so tell me, what did you think about tonight's events? I just said, wow. I just. Wow. Wow. I'm impressed. Uday was like a little boy, you know? He always reminded me of my older son. He was just like a kid. And I could see the excitement in him when he knew he was pleasing me. He wanted to please me. Money was no object to him, so he could pay me. No big deal. Pay me. He wanted to please me.

Interviewer (Sarah Geiss) (33:50)

Why do you think he wanted that?

Larry Garrett (33:53)

To answer your question, why was Uday trying to do so much to impress me? Anything. Anything. I wanted to do a lot of editing. Sorry about that. I get very emotional. I'm kind of an emotional guy. You know, I. I cry at weddings. And funerals. And funerals. I don't cry as much. Weddings, I cry at more. They don't know what they're getting into. So when I was with Uday, he felt my compassion for him, and he knew I wasn't judging him. So Uday had nobody who was impressed with him. Nobody liked Uday. Nobody. Uday had found a guy who he could impress.

Interviewer (Sarah Geiss) (34:55)

How many sessions did you do with uday?

Nick Vanderkolk (34:57)

About.

Larry Garrett (34:59)

About eight, maybe nine. I was there 10 days.

Interviewer (Sarah Geiss) (35:01)

What's the goodbye like?

Larry Garrett (35:03)

Well, I remember he embraced me, you know, first he shook hands, and then he put his arm around me and hugged me and says, maybe we'll meet again. He was walking much better now. He wasn't using a cane any longer. He wasn't using crutches. I kind of had an intuitive feeling.

Larry Garrett (35:19)

They were gonna call me again, though.

Larry Garrett (35:21)

Cause when your work's not done, you.

Larry Garrett (35:25)

Have to go back.

Larry Garrett (35:26)

Like, you come in here many times until your work's done. You have to come back.

Interviewer (Sarah Geiss) (35:35)

So when you got back from Iraq the first time, you really didn't know who Uday was. And then I assume, friends started telling you he did this and he did that, and he killed people, and he raped them. He killed his dad's servant at the dinner table. Did people start to tell you this?

Larry Garrett (35:49)

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. In fact, I remember one friend gave me a magazine with a great story in there how horrible he was and how he had hurt people and raped women and killed people. And I don't even think I got past the first paragraph or something. I thought, I don't want to read this. You know, it's Not a good feeling to read this stuff sometime. I have a little philosophy, Sarah, that says, leave well enough alone. I had a father who was from Tennessee. And so when I was a young boy, I would go to Tennessee starting around seven, eight years old on. And, you know, and they had farm labor, little children, you know, and I used to pick cotton or dig potatoes or whatever. And at 12 years old, I remember I had to slaughter an animal. Oh, I couldn't do it today, but that was part of the ritual of growing up in the South. And I had to shoot a pig and. And hang it by its hind legs and cut its throat and drain it.

Interviewer (Sarah Geiss) (36:39)

But you do. You do eat meat. So we have that.

Larry Garrett (36:41)

I do eat meat. I do eat meat, but I don't look at it like that. You know, it's funny you say that. I was talking. I was talking to my son yesterday, and I don't remember how it came up, but I said, you know, I said, I wouldn't want to eat a fish with eyes. He said, well, you used to eat smoked chubs. I said, yeah, but I didn't think about it. Then I said, break off the head, not look at it. I could eat a hamburger, but I don't want to know it came from a dead cow. I just don't want to think about that. So, again, I think you've learned from me that I have this ability in my mind not to think of something that I don't see. And that's my naive personality. But it protects me.

Interviewer (Sarah Geiss) (37:15)

I mean, it doesn't sound naive to me. It sounds very intentional. It sounds like you're able to develop some kind of intentional avoidance.

Larry Garrett (37:24)

Intentional avoidance. I like that word because I am intentional. Intentionally avoiding it intentionally. But let's pretend like I am a person who many people are. And I think about too many things. I think about too many things, and all those things I'm thinking about are wasting my ability to be focused. So I could be focused on you right now and intentionally not pay attention to that car outside, intentionally not worry about who's on the other side of that door, because I am focused on you. When we don't have that intentional observance. I like that. That's good then. We're all over the place, aren't we? We're all over the place. And especially if we have anxiety. If we have anxiety, we now have so many thoughts, we can't even sleep at night. Second phone call I received was in August of 2001, asking if I would go back to Baghdad. I Was asked how much did I want to go back? And I said, well, what you paid me last time's fine, you know, as long as you're covering all the other expenses. And September 9, 2001, I boarded a plane to Baghdad. Okay. There. Now do an interview. Tell us your name.

Ali (BBC Translator) (38:54)

Yeah, my name is Ali.

Larry Garrett (38:56)

Ali? Yeah, Ali. He's not handsome.

Translator/Guide (38:58)

Make it more clear.

Larry Garrett (38:59)

Yeah. I not clear.

Translator/Guide (39:00)

That's clear, yes.

Ali (BBC Translator) (39:02)

Why I'm not handsome.

Larry Garrett (39:04)

What are you talking about? Wait. Now we're going to take a picture. Wait. Okay. Do you look okay? Yes.

Ali (BBC Translator) (39:10)

Okay.

Larry Garrett (39:10)

Okay. See? So.

Ali (BBC Translator) (39:13)

So I was sitting in the lobby waiting for some guests. They were foreigners, you know. I told you I work as a BBC translator in Baghdad. Actually, at that time, before themselves came down, something you see fell down the building fell down.

Larry Garrett (39:38)

A third explosion.

Ali (BBC Translator) (39:39)

Explosion goes to the second building in New York, you see, it goes down.

Larry Garrett (39:45)

You can tell me the story. Just tell me about the girl. What's your girlfriend's name? Amira. Amira. And tell me about Amira. She was here in the hotel and she was talking to her mother. Holly and Samara owned the jewelry store. And the TV was on. The TV was always on. We're standing there and I've got my camera on, aiming at Ali. So the news is on, but I don't know what the news is because it's in Arabic. My first thought is, this is a science fiction movie showing high rises falling to the ground. There was a plane that crashed into the high rise in New York. They think that it was some terrorist type of. Oh, wow. As we walked in, Uday was sitting at his computer. And I could tell that he was pretty upset about things. He had a look on his face like something was wrong. And of course something was wrong. The United States had just been bombed. He stood up and came over and shook hands and said that he was upset about this and that many more lives will suffer and die because of this and your country will blame us for this. I didn't understand that. I couldn't even phantom how this would be. He was kind of curious why I wasn't really upset and devastated about 9 11. And this is difficult for most people to understand. Not just Uday Hussain. I think it upsets us sometime when you're freaking out and somebody doesn't freak out with you. And this is Uday. Uday's freaking out about 9 11. And I'm attempting to stay calm. And I'm saying that's because I'm staying in the moment. If I don't stay in the moment, then I'm in trouble, because here I could start freaking out, and I'm stuck in Iraq, and I can't do anything about it. And he said, you know, Mr. Larry, I would like to learn how to stay in the moment. Do you feel like hypnotizing me? Tonight? I asked him if he wanted to work with his walking still, and he said to me, no. He says, my walking is fine. Mr. Larry. He says, now I want to work on my knees, he says, because when I run, he says, my knees lock up sometime. So I was very excited. He's running. Before he couldn't walk. Now he's running. Visualize your running becoming smooth and even without even thinking. We don't think when we run. We just run. I want you to just run without thinking. Remove that fear from your mind that your knee is going to lock up. Just imagine your body being able to have that agility and movement almost like you were gliding over the earth. Your legs are moving well. The flexibility in your ankles, flexibility in your knees, your hips. And you can run so well like an athlete. The absence of tightness allows you to feel proud and confident, Feel the positive of being able to lead your country with such confidence and sureness, such an ability that you know with sureness of how confident you are, how strong you are, imagine, if you will, the people of your country are going to be proud to have you as a leader. They're going to be so proud that you can walk well and walk straight. They're going to feel so proud that you could lead them well. And when you run, you're only making your body stronger. You're making your posture more erect. You're making your confidence more sureness. People are going to observe that. And as you walk, you're going to walk with proudness and sureness in your country and your leadership.

Interviewer (Sarah Geiss) (43:56)

Did you hope for Uday that he become the leader of this country?

Larry Garrett (44:01)

I was hoping that I could teach him to be a good man and that he would be a good leader. If Uday and I would have continued this relationship beyond 9 11, I would have had him in a different direction. I was thinking how instrumental I could be in that quest of his life to be the leader, and how influential I could be in teaching him to live the moment and be more loving, more conscious. And, of course, people listening to this are laughing. They're sitting there listening to this podcast, and they're laughing. They're saying, larry's a fool. No, I believe I could do that. I've met many people who have come in here and done miraculous things with their lives just because they started liking themselves more. Uday did not like himself. He didn't like himself. So when you ask, was I hoping that Uday would become the leader? I was hoping that if he became the leader, that I would be significant in teaching him how to be a better leader. Yes. The last day that I'm in Baghdad, I had either gotten a little dehydrated or ate too many fresh dates. I was so obsessed with eating fresh dates. Fresh dates are like figs. They're juicy and full of nice flavors and nice texture, and they're so rich and so sweet. I was so sick, I could barely move. So we went to Uday's house. He was waiting, and his concern, again, was there. Oh, my God, you're sick. I'm so sorry you're sick. Do you feel good enough to hypnotize me? Yeah, let's do it. I didn't feel good enough. But I didn't want to tell him no. I didn't want to tell him no because this was going to be our last meeting. This was it. When Uday and I were finished, he extended his arm to shake hands. And then he sort of embraced me on both arms. Didn't, like, put his arms around my back as some people hug. It was more like he took both of his hands and embraced me by touching the upper parts of my arms. That was his embrace. That was his embrace. And to me, that was a gesture of embracement. And I don't think Uday ever embraced anybody. I don't think he knew about love and embracing. I don't think he knew things that we had learned together. I don't think that he knew things existed like we spoke of. And that was our goodbye. After I got back, I was invited to go back in October, but the FBI told me I couldn't go back. They visited with me. They wanted to see if I had anything with DNA of who they. And they said, we recommend you don't go back. If you go back, we can't be responsible. Realize that there might be a whole different feeling when you go back now. And you're lucky that you're home now. If you go back there again, they just might take you out in the desert and put a pop in your head, and you'll never come back, and nobody will ever know. The FBI told me this, so I had all these thoughts. I said, I don't think I'll go back. So I never went back. They wanted to speak to me, because I could look at a map of Baghdad and tell you what streets we went down. I could show you where Uday's house was. I could show you where the radio station was. I could show you where the Ameria bomb shelter was. And so they liked that. And I remember Uday telling me, don't keep anything back from your government. You'll get in trouble. Tell them everything. Why would he tell me that? Why would he say to me to tell them everything? Didn't he know that they were going to ask me how to get to his house? I often wondered, when the war started, did they know how to get there?

Larry Garrett (48:10)

Because I told them.

Interviewer (Sarah Geiss) (48:14)

So when you got back to Chicago and people started telling you more, I'm just wondering, was there ever a moment where you heard one specific, specific thing that Uday did that made you go, ooh?

Larry Garrett (48:23)

The only thing that I heard about Uday was how he had been terrible about molesting women or raping women, how he would take wives away from men and he would later kill them. How he killed prisoners easily, how he killed people who didn't agree with him.

Interviewer (Sarah Geiss) (48:39)

When you heard it, like, how did it make you feel?

Larry Garrett (48:45)

It didn't affect me with the horrific energies that it was told to me. Oh, my God, this man is terrible. Look at this article. Read this book. Watch this movie. Everybody wanted to prove to me how stupid I was for being there. Everybody wanted to prove to me how bad this person was. All of these people, though, knew nothing of what I knew. I had met this man. I had sat with this man. I knew this man, and I knew this man did all these horrific things that they told me. But that wasn't the man I met. I don't know your history. And somebody said, oh, well, you ought to know what I know about her. Then you wouldn't like her so much. But, you see, I don't know that. So that part of me doesn't influence me about a person. I have spent many, many years, many years there not judging people. So when I come back and people tell me how horrible Uday was, I could only measure what I had met, what I had seen. For me to judge people who they were deteriorates my communication skills with them of who they are. I've met murderers before. I've met people of rape before. I've met people who have stolen before. I've met many bad people, many bad people. But all I meet is I meet a person who wants to feel better.

Interviewer (Sarah Geiss) (50:17)

If you had gotten Uday up and he was running and he was walking and he was a bad leader. He continued to do the bad things that his, you know, that his entire.

Larry Garrett (50:25)

Family has done after he was well. Okay.

Interviewer (Sarah Geiss) (50:28)

Would you have felt end. And he continued to torture people and rape people and all the stuff he's known for. Would you have felt responsibility?

Larry Garrett (50:37)

No. No. I don't feel responsibility of people being who they are if that's who they want to be. I always say you can't hypnotize somebody to do something they don't want to do. If he's a terrorist and a murderer and he wants to keep doing that, I would not feel responsible that I helped him heal. No. Because I think if I were a surgeon and this murderer was needing surgery to survive and I did surgery and he survived and he went back out and killed people, I wouldn't say to myself, oh, I shouldn't have operated on him. And then he may have died and he wouldn't be killing people. No, I wouldn't think that. No.

Interviewer (Sarah Geiss) (51:14)

But if he became a good leader, you would have felt some responsibility for that.

Larry Garrett (51:18)

Yes. Yes. Because the shift is to have him become a more conscientious person, a more loving person. So I didn't go there to hypnotize him so he could walk, to go out and kill more people. I hypnotized a person who needed to learn how to be okay with his mind and walk again so he could have a better life. No, I had this good fantasy that he was going to be better, that he was going to be a better man. Most of the people that I see here. And one day we're going to hypnotize you. And you'll see, they leave here feeling better. Sarah, you ask anybody who knows me. Very little bothers me. I remember this person I was close to, and she'd say to me, life's not as good as you think it is. You know? Yeah, life's only as good as you think it is. And so again, I'm going to say the words that I said a few moments ago. No, I'm happy that I met Uday Hussain. What a great gift to spend 60 hours with this terrorist, this mentally disturbed person, this person who kills and maims and rapes people and get into their head. If you're a hypnotist, right, or if you're a journalist.

News Reporter (52:38)

In the early morning hours Tuesday, U.S. for forces surrounded this villa in the northern Iraqi city of Mosul. An Iraqi source, a walk in, according to the military, told U.S. troops last night Saddam Hussein's two sons, Uday and Qusay, were hiding inside. They died in a fierce gun battle. They resisted the detention and the efforts of the coalition forces to go in there and apprehend them. And they were killed.

Interviewer (Sarah Geiss) (53:05)

The photo photos of Uday and Qusay.

Larry Garrett (53:07)

Hussein were the talk of Baghdad today.

News Reporter (53:10)

The photos show the blood speckled and damaged faces and upper torsos of the sons. One appears to be spread out on a body bag, the other on what looks like bloodied sheets. Also released were X rays of one of Uday's legs, which was badly damaged in an assassination attempt.

Larry Garrett (53:32)

Some well meaning friend says, oh, look, your friend Uday has been killed. It was in the front page of a newspaper, I remember, and I don't really look at newspapers and my friends know I don't look at newspapers and they know I don't watch the news. And somebody brought me a photo that showed Uday's face after he had been killed. And at first there was like a little sensitivity that somebody I knew was dead. But then as I looked at the photo and then I started reading the article, there was something not congruent about this whole thing. They said the face was distorted because of the injuries that the body sustained when it was killed and shot or whatever, but it didn't look like that person. There was nothing that resembled Uday. His brother and him didn't even talk to each other. Why would they be stuck in a house in Moselle with no bodyguards, with a 12 year old kid? And I would tell people that, but people want to hear what they want to hear and they didn't want to hear me. But I hear me.

Interviewer (Sarah Geiss) (54:46)

In your wildest imagination, where is Uday right now and what is he doing?

Larry Garrett (54:52)

Well, it's an interesting question. In my wildest imagination, if Uday is still alive, and he might be, he had so much money, all he had to do maybe is grow a beard or maybe shave the one that he had. It wouldn't take much to make him look different. If I were Uday, I had more money than I could spend the rest of my life. I'd be sharing it to say, get me a passport, get me some new clothes, get me out of here. But you know, he has always wanted to live in the United States. I thought, what if he moved to the United States? Could be in our world today, anything is possible. So I know your listeners are saying, oh, no, Larry, he's dead. We read it in the newspaper and I say, you know, when you know somebody and then you read about them in the paper or see them on the news. It's not even the same person sometime. So I think maybe he's. He's probably. If he's still alive, he's probably low key, doesn't try and get a lot of attention. He has to be John Smith and he has to live on Brenmore Avenue near Sheridan Road. And that's where he's at right now. And what do I think he's doing right now at this very minute? He's probably watching the news.

Larry Garrett (56:45)

Drift off so slow. Drift off and quiet your mind. Feel the calmness you're beginning to experience and learning. The more you relax yourself every night as you're falling asleep, the more powerful your mind will become. Staying in a moment. And the power is to stay in a moment. Allow your mind to quiet in a nice calmness now. So slow, so calm, so comfortable now. Drift off so slow. Feel your whole body is free from any stress. Your mind is feeling so at peace and feeling good. As though time has stood still for you. Seems like only a few moments have passed. Seems like your mind has relaxed.

Larry Garrett (57:55)

Well.

Larry Garrett (58:07)

Nice feelings now. Let's go through a nice experience now. And drift off. Drift off. Sirens Let your mind dose into a nice gentle direction.

Nick Vanderkolk (59:01)

That's it for love and radio. This episode was produced by Sarah Geiss and edited by Jesse Carrier, Steven Jackson and myself. It featured musical contributions from Ulfur Arctika, the Life on Earth, Maha Radkya, Spoo, Leandro Fresco, Mushio Funazawa, El Resplandor, Roly Porter, Masayoshi Fujita and Jan Yellinek. Red Stars Over Tokyo, Tim Hecker and Creedler. Check our website for the full playlist. Love and radio is a labor of love and radio and made possible thanks to our supporters on Patreon, with extra special thanks to Ally Mothra, Perry, Casey, Pamela Anderson, Chakrit Footheidon, Sudhajan, Pam Bam, Dan Palmino, Jacqueline Potato Leak, Jason V for Vendetta, Joe, Paul Mieri, Mark Dunksasan, Sam Huffman. Huffman. Sandru Neck actually has to read this. Schroeder and Chris, who thinks he's too fancy to talk me how to pronounce his last name. I'm Nicholas Sardine. Punch Punch Vanderkolk. Thank you for listening.

Larry Garrett (60:23)

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Larry Garrett (60:48)

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