Anwen (3:24)

I either didn't Respond. Or I responded with, like, one word answers.

Samir (3:29)

Basically, I was ghosted, which is the millennial term for having somebody stop responding to your text messages.

Anwen (3:36)

Yeah, I just kind of faded.

Samir (3:38)

And so I was like, oh, okay, cool. She's not interested. That's. That's it.

Anwen (3:52)

Second semester, freshman year. It's a couple weeks after the start of the semester. Both Samir and I had gone through recruitment for Greek Life. He had become part of a fraternity, and I'd become part of a sorority. And I think this was one of the first parties that the new recruits got to go to. I knew that Samir was going to be at this party. Pretty small school. Like, you know what's going on with other people. I think we ran into each other going opposite directions, coming to the stairs. I think I said something about how, like, I was sorry that I had stopped talking to him suddenly.

Samir (4:37)

Oh, it's fine. Like, you aren't ready for a relationship. I get it. It's cool. At some point later that night, I saw her dancing on the dance floor, and I went up and I started dancing with her. I mean, she started dancing back, like.

Anwen (4:57)

Facing each other, like, doing the, like, kind of awkward, like, prom groove thing. I think at some point, we flipped around to where my back was against the wall, and I think that's when he kissed me. At some point, I was like, I don't see my friends. I want to go. He's like, okay. And I think walked me upstairs to get my coat. At which point we discovered that the room was locked.

Samir (5:36)

She and a bunch of her friends had put their stuff in one of the brothers rooms. Apparently, he had taken off for the night. And so there was no access into that room.

Anwen (5:46)

So I couldn't get my coat that had my dorm keys, my phone, everything in it, and all of my friends had left. I saw a couple guys who I knew were from my dorm. They weren't on my same floor, but I could at least get into the building. They were walking back. They were, like, just leaving the frat house. And so I said, like, hey, I'm just gonna follow those guys home. And at that point, Samir said, you can't just leave. After kissing me like that, I know that I was like, I don't want to be in a relationship with you. I don't want to really be with you. But I was probably also trying to be nice and was like, but you're a great guy. I've really enjoyed talking to you. The question arose, like, well, I don't know where I'm staying tonight. I can't get back into my dorm. He offered that I could spend the night in his room. I didn't want to spend the night in his room because I didn't want to have sex with him and I didn't want to keep making out with him, but I didn't know where else to go. We went back to his dorm room and, like, as soon as we were inside, he pushed me against the inside of the door and started kissing me. My control, my emotional control just, like, went. And I remember, like, his arm being around me, and it was just, like, it was too big and he was, like, too heavy. And it was just, like, too much physical contact. Like, I couldn't figure out how to get out of the situation. It was like I had fog in my head. We ended up in his bed and I, like. He kept kissing me. I was underneath him. He started to, like, put his hand at my crotch and, like, rubbed me hard. And I was. And I was just panicking. My heart rate has sped up a lot. And I'm just. I'm like, too hot and too fluttery and too nervous and, like, it's just, like a need to get out feeling. I remember he said, oh, fuck, it would feel so good to fuck you. And I said, I don't want to have sex. And he laughed. And his response was, I know. I don't have a condom anyway. And went back to kissing me. And he said, take it off. And I said, what? He says, like, your shirt. And I started to pull up my shirt. And as soon as he put his hand on my breast, it was just absolute revulsion in my body. And I said, no. And I pulled my shirt back down. And I, like, curled up on his bed at that point, holding back tears. I hated the way his hand had felt on my breast. I didn't feel like I could do anything. So there was, like, panic. A lot of fear. And an anger, too. A lot of anger, but an impotent anger. I couldn't do anything with it. He, like, reached down and, like, took my hand. Like, he still had his pants on, but, like, he put my hand there and, like, started moving my hand. And then he, like, pulled down his pants and said, he doesn't bite. And, like, physically moved my hand up and down, like, grasping him and said something like, wow, you really. You haven't done this before. He was huge compared to me. He has his hand around mine, wrapped around his cock, making me, like, give him a hand job. And then he said, your mouth Would feel even better. He like moved me and had his hand on the back of my head and started pushing my head down on him. Down and down and down. I can remember feeling like I was gagging, like I was choking. I think I started crying. This was both something I'd never experienced before and didn't want to be experiencing. And he said, it's okay, I'm hard to please, let me just go finish up. And he left and he went to the bathroom. I can remember lying in his bed just like curled up, thinking, I didn't fucking want to please you. He came back into the room, he got back on the bed, he put his arm over me, he pulled the covers up and he laid holding me. I didn't feel like I could move. I remember looking across the room to the other bed and just wishing I could be on that bed instead and holding back tears. And eventually I fell asleep for a couple days after that I just was like in a blur. I felt really disgusted. I like hurt between my legs where he'd been like rubbing me. I felt dirty and I didn't know what to do. Sophomore fall, that was the worst semester of my entire college experience. I dropped one of my classes early on because I knew if I didn't drop it, I was going to fail it. I didn't want to see him. I didn't want to like have to think about him because whenever I saw him, it just brought all of this back up and this like icky, panicky tightness in my stomach. I started avoiding him, figuring out what times of day on certain days he walked certain places and I wouldn't walk there. I check before I walk into the college coffee shop to see if he's there. If he's there, I don't go in.

Samir (13:07)

She had stopped responding to my text messages and didn't talk to me anymore. So I was like, oh, okay. It was just like a somewhat awkward first time hookup thing. Sometimes when you hook up with somebody, you become really awkward around them afterwards. We were both fairly sexually inexperienced and sometimes it doesn't always come out like it does in the movies or in the porn for that matter. And so basically I went about my day, things like that. And the, the next time I would see Anwen would be.

Anwen (13:43)

I had gone through training to be an orientation leader and part of the training to be an orientation leader was that we went through Green Dot bystander training.

Samir (13:55)

And that is it taught people how to be at parties and recognize problematic behaviors and like emphasize checking in with people. Who are going home with each other. During the full on training where I was an orientation leader, the prompter said it's assault when someone uses emotional manipulation, Putting somebody in a situation where they feel like they can't say no.

Anwen (14:21)

I think through those trainings, it was like, oh, my God. This wasn't just an awkward hookup. This wasn't right. This was. This was assault.

Samir (14:40)

That night was the first thing that popped into my head. Wait, did I. Did I do this? Did this happen? If it did happen, is that how Anwin feels about this? She would have reported something, but she hasn't. Maybe she doesn't see it that way. Maybe she just also views it like I did, where it was like a bad hookup. I was terrified that I assaulted her. I was terrified of myself. Because if this was true and I. And I did assault her, then what did that make me? I was terrified of being found out. I was terrified of being sent to jail. I was terrified of all the consequences that come with sexual assault and rape. And I didn't have anybody that I was, like, who I could tell because, like, how. How do I say hi? I think I. I think I assaulted and raped somebody, But I'm not entirely.

Anwen (15:58)

I was an orientation leader, and I was a wilderness leader, so I did, like, the backpacking trips. And Samir was a base camp leader, so he did two sessions of, like, something in the boy's camp. He was a leader for. And between those two sessions, the leaders have one night off. Essentially, at this camp, the leaders all have a, like, group hangout at night.

Interviewer (16:23)

Okay. How did you realize he was there?

Anwen (16:28)

Because I was aware of him at any point. This just came from, like, knowing when not to walk certain places on campus. So I knew he was an orientation leader. I knew where he was. I think I kind of, like, had put myself in a corner just kind of watching and, like, waiting for when he came. Came by. I mean, when he walked by, I said his name.

Samir (17:02)

And I knew it was her, but I was terrified to turn around. But I did. This is the first time she and I had spoken since freshman year. She asked if we could talk. And I said, yes, of course.

Anwen (17:18)

And I said, I want to talk about that night. And he said something along the lines of, like, let me make sure we're talking about the same thing. Like, let me make sure we're on the same page the night you came home with me. And I said, yes. And then I said name that night.

Samir (17:40)

I stuttered.

Anwen (17:42)

And.

Samir (17:48)

I told her that. I told her that I Raped her.

Anwen (17:58)

Whoa. It was a powerful feeling to feel that I was. Was not just crazy and that he also knew that it had been wrong.

Samir (18:19)

Yes, I knew it in my head. Yes, I knew it to myself. But admitting it to the person I did it is just.

Anwen (18:26)

Yeah.

Samir (18:27)

I mean, I hated myself. I wanted to kill myself. I asked her, like, hey, like, do you want me to kill myself? Do you want me to, like, turn myself into the police? Like, what do you want? What can I do? I know I can't fix this, but what can I do? And that's when she offered to ask if we could talk more. And I said okay.

Anwen (18:53)

The first semester of junior year, we'd started talking. It was good. Like, it was good to get to talk about this, but there was also still a lot of anger. I didn't know if I should just keep avoiding him or if I needed to talk more to him. I think I was. I was just. I wanted to tell my story more. I wanted to tell people, like, I was just holding something in that had become integral to who I was and who I'd become as a person. And nobody else knew, like, other than a few friends. And so then I started feeling this. This massive, like, need to have other people know and to have other people know that it was him that did it.

Interviewer (19:39)

Was there. Was there a moment when you remember thinking, like, okay, I need to do something more about this now.

Anwen (19:50)

Take back the night.

Samir (19:52)

Well, take back the night. That was. That was one of the weirdest nights of. Of my college career.

Anwen (20:04)

So take back the night happened. Fall of my senior year. I went, and so I, like, marched around, and people had signs. I don't know that I had a sign. And then we ended in one of the campus buildings, and there was a microphone set up. I mean, unrehearsed. I walked up to the mic and started speaking pretty much. And I kind of went through the story a little bit and more just like, the motions afterwards. But I didn't say his name. And he was sitting in the audience right in front of me, about 10ft away from her.

Samir (20:41)

I tried really hard to keep myself together. I couldn't look her in the eye. Felt like such a hypocrite.

Anwen (20:49)

I wanted to call him out. I really wanted to call him out, but I wanted him to be able to come forward on his own. I wanted him to be able to be standing up there with me and speaking the story with me and be able to have the story be exposed in a way that didn't just write us into the categories of like, angelic, pure survivor, horrible, evil assaulter. And I think I actually said, like, if this person comes forward and tells his story, I hope that you'll listen to him. And then I went to Frank. Frank was a. I don't know what his official title was. He dealt with conduct proceedings for the university. I started talking with him, I think, about what I wanted. I didn't want a formal proceeding. I didn't want a verdict handed down. I wanted it to be a discussion. And I wanted to decide with Samir what the results were going to be. And Frank took that and listened to me and said something like, well, that sounds like restorative justice.

Samir (22:18)

Onwin and I would meet with Frank individually, express our, like, our both sides of the story. After going through my interview, he showed me Anwin's response. I read her perspective and so many things I thought in my brain. I had asked her to take her shirt off. I didn't. I told her I thought from my perspective, I was being a potential, like, teacher when it came to, like, oral sex. Turns out I was basically coercing her into doing this. Even though she wasn't comfortable. I could feel, like, the fear and intimidation. And I felt. I felt my hands. I've only felt it, like, once before in my life. And that was when something really traumatic happened to me. But my hands had this almost like an electric ache. My heart felt crushed. Felt like I was gonna throw up. It didn't sound like me. It sounded like a monster. But that was the hardest part, was that, like, this. This guy who forced himself onto this girl is me. She's had to think about it every single day. And I'm not sure if the wounds are all the way healed. I doubt they are, but it's a pain that I can't take away. No matter what I do, I can't take that away. And I know I've said it a thousand times, but I am sorry. After I was done reliving and contemplating and frankly hating myself, Frank asks me if there's anything in my testimony I would like to change. I immediately say yes. And then I started going line by line through Anwin's testimony and saying, can I please add this to my testimony? Can I please add this to my testimony? Filling in my testimony with lots of details that I could not remember, that I didn't remember now because I got to read it and got to relive it.

Anwen (25:36)

We started talking at that point about what I would like from him also, if he had any ideas of what he could do, like, how he could speak his story, how he could do something to prevent more of this happening in the future. And we started making a list.

Samir (25:59)

I had already started trying to institutionalize, going to full on green dot bystander trainings for the fraternity that I was at that point no longer a part of. Being an advocate against sexual violence and sexual assaults, advocating for consent in all ways to as many of my friends as possible. I was published in my university's publication in order to inspire others who are in similar situations to me to try to seek a restorative action. A lot of people that I spoke to have had very similar, if not the same kind of experiences. And so I wanted that story to be like, hey, there might be some potential stuff you need to figure out or look up or check out for.

Anwen (26:39)

Yourself.

Interviewer (26:48)

On when you like you. You. Yes, you've had a lot of time to. Not just a lot of time, but have put in a lot of effort to working through this. And you speak about it from a place that feels very empowered and also a place that feels like kind of like matter of fact a little bit. And like, do you ever feel like, need to act more like a victim or act more like dramatic or act more in any way? Because that's kind of like what the cultural expectation of you is.

Anwen (27:20)

So I actually had this thought this morning before this where I was like, should I. Am I suppose? Like, am I. Should I be upset? Like, do I. Do I start crying? Like, totally, totally. I have those thoughts of like, am I not representing this appropriately? And like, screw that. I've done a lot of work with this. And like, the only reactions I've had to me speaking about it very matter of factly is like, wow, you're so brave. Or like, that's amazing. And that's actually a really hard response for me to deal with because, I mean, I guess it was brave, but there wasn't any other option for me. It's a weird thing to be praised for doing something that I felt was necessary. I want to provide an example of an instance of rape in which you can really see that both people are human and both people are more than their actions and can grow.

Samir (28:32)

Throughout this entire ordeal process, whatever word you want to give it. Anwyn has shown a tremendous amount of strength. Not only can she go to the person, the perpetrator, the person who affected her life in such a negative way, but be able to find, I guess, forgiveness and a willingness to extend compassion towards that person and ask them to be better and to be a part of this process and to work with that person. Every time that I've wanted to punish myself beyond all belief, she always stayed my hand and said, no, I want you to do better. Don't just take the easy route and lock yourself up or get yourself kicked off campus or kill yourself, because that's not going to help anybody. I will always be in awe of that.

Anwen (29:30)

Originally, when. When I first confronted Samir and then like, we kept talking every so often. Honestly, for me it was like a keeping tabs thing. And now it's more of just a like, hey, what are you up to in your life? Hey, did you see this thing that's like, similar to what we did or occasionally like FaceTime and just like, catch up? Yeah.

Samir (29:55)

I mean, just like kind of check in every once in a while. I don't know. It's a fairly casual, like, conversation, relationship, word interaction thing. I don't know.

Anwen (30:05)

Yeah. Yeah. It's also funny because one of the things I realized, actually, I think during and after the restorative justice process is that Sameer is honestly one of the people that knows me best. We know each other's like, deepest horrible moment, basically. Yeah. And so there's not a lot that can't be said. Yeah. No.

Samir (30:32)

You're pretty spot on about that.

Anwen (30:35)

Yeah.

Samir (30:36)

Yeah.

Anwen (30:38)

I don't think I'll ever lose contact entirely with Samir.

Nick Van der Kolk (30:51)

That's it for Love and Radio. A version of this story was originally broadcast on the podcast Reckonings from Stephanie Lepp. You can find it at Reckonings Show. Our version was Produced by Julia DeWitt with Stephen Jackson and Phil Dimhovsky. The music you heard on this episode comes from Pal Bowman 2 Richard Horowitz visible Cloaks Lucretia Dalt, Tashi Wada with Yoshi Wada and friends Oliver Coates, Erushka V and Shy Layers. By a strange coincidence, these are all artists on the record label Revenge who are our best buddies in the entire world. You can check them out@igetrvng.com that's R, V N G G. Revenge, right? Love and radio is a labor of love and radio and made possible thanks to our supporters on Patreon with extra special thanks to Ali Mothra Perry, Casey Pamela Anderson, Chakrit Fudaidon, Sudhachan Bam Bam. Dan Palmino, Jacqueline Potato League Jason V for Vendetta Joe Palmieri, Marks Dunst Son, Sam Huffman Huffman Sandro. Nick actually has to read this. Schroeder and William Stabby Spears if you believe in Love and Radio and you want the world to believe. You can help keep the show going by becoming a member yourself atlove and radio.org member. Thank you. I'm Nicholas Sardine. Punch. Punch Van der Kolk. Thanks for listening.

Anwen (32:28)

Sat.