Podcast Summary: Love and Radio – “Rotting with Style”

Host: Nick van der Kolk
Guest: Sandor Katz (fermentation revivalist, author)
Release Date: June 21, 2023

Episode Overview

In this vibrant and philosophical episode of Love and Radio, host Nick van der Kolk visits legendary fermentation guru Sandor Katz at home in rural Tennessee. Together, they explore the science, philosophy, and radical pleasure of fermenting food—and how fermentation parallels Katz’s transformative personal journey as a queer person living with HIV. The episode melds hands-on discussions of fermenting foods (with tastings!), reflective explorations of bacteria’s role in our bodies and society, and musings on how decay, transformation, and survival are deeply interlinked.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Fermentation Basics and Culinary Experiments

• Katz’s Early Love of Sour Flavors

  • Sandor reminisces about his childhood in New York, where he grew up loving pickles, which he simply called “sour pickles” (02:13).
  • Quote: “A pickle was cheaper than a candy bar. Much more satisfying.” (02:34)

• Tasting Room: Mead and Kraut

  • Katz and van der Kolk taste from a selection of homemade beverages: sumac mead, blueberry wine, turmeric ginger-black pepper mead, coffee mead (02:36–03:55).
  • Quote (Nick): “It’s like a coffee liqueur, not quite as syrupy.” (03:57)
  • Katz describes a koji-pickled cow tongue dish and revels in scandalizing friends with unusual foods (00:51–01:11).

2. ‘Fermenting’ Life: HIV Diagnosis and Rural Transformation

• Sandor describes a profound transformation after receiving his HIV-positive diagnosis in 1991 (04:08–07:00).

  • He recounts the shock and the feeling that “something big has to change” and how a trip to Mardi Gras introduced him to a queer rural Tennessee community where he eventually settled.
  • Quote: “Obviously, I can’t know what it’s like to feel pregnant, but I felt pregnant with change.” (06:10)

• The move to Tennessee sparks his obsession with food fermentation, leading to the nickname “Sanderkraut” (07:45).

  • Quote: “I became increasingly obsessed with these foods... What kind of food are you rotting now?”

3. Fermentation as Survival and Y2K Prepping

• Reflects on Y2K anxieties: some neighbors chose bulk stockpiling, but Katz advocated for skill-building—growing and fermenting their own food (08:03–08:49).

  • Quote: “My challenge to them was, if you really believe this, isn’t this the time to start building skills... rather than stockpiling foods that’ll end up being food for rodents and insects?” (08:32)

• He gives a whirlwind tour of traditional ferments: sauerkraut, miso, sourdough, injera, yogurt, kimchi, chocolate, kefir, and more (08:50–10:12).

4. Fermentation Science and Food Safety

• Kefir Deep Dive

  • Discusses the unique biodiversity of kefir grains (about 30 distinct organisms), how to care for them, and what makes safe fermentation (10:15–12:15).
  • Quote: “It’s just got this one particular flavor note that feels a little bit off to me. I’m not, you know, worried about safety or I wouldn’t be sharing it with you.” (11:22)

• Safety of Fermented Foods

  • Katz dispels fears of fermentation gone wrong, stressing the self-protecting nature of lactic acid fermentation (13:15–15:15).
  • Quote: “There’s no documented case history anywhere in the world of illness or food poisoning from fermented vegetables.” (12:56)
  • Explains how lactic acid bacteria outcompete pathogens in fermented vegetables.
  • Challenges the simplified “good” vs. “bad” bacteria mindset.

5. Changing Views on Microbes and Gut Health

• Discusses the shifting landscape over the past century—from the “war on bacteria” to a new appreciation for microbiome diversity (16:30–21:30).

  • Quote: “Bacteria are the matrix for all life and are totally essential to our functionality and well-being.” (16:58)
  • Explains the critical roles bacteria play in digestion, immunity, child development (relating lack of microbial exposure to rise in allergies/asthma), and even mental health.
  • Quote: “Our brain chemistry... is regulated in ways that we don’t completely understand by bacteria in the gut.” (20:18)

• Points out the irony of becoming a servant to the bacteria:

  • Quote: “... all I’m saying is, who’s controlling whom? ... I’m constantly feeding [bacteria] different kinds of foods that I could just eat myself, but instead I’m feeding them.” (25:28)

6. Philosophy of Power, Control, and Bacterial Agency

• Katz and van der Kolk muse on the feeling of “playing god” when fermenting foods vs. being under the “thumb” of microbial life (24:40–25:28).

  • Quote (Nick): “There is something really weirdly godlike about it—that you’re just manipulating this environment.” (25:09)

• Katz puts it in perspective:

  • Quote: “I’m putting all this energy into preparing food and environments for bacteria... so all I’m saying is, who’s controlling whom?” (25:28)

7. Fermentation Details: Salt, Texture, and Cultural Manipulation

• Explains how salt modulates crunch and preservation in pickles and krauts, adjusting methods based on climate and intended shelf life (22:25–24:45).

  • Quote: “What makes vegetables crunchy are pectins... The salt slows [pectin-digesting enzymes] down.” (23:44)

• Reflects on “cultural manipulation”—the double meaning, both social/cultural and microbial (24:45).

8. Notable Bacteria and Shifting Paradigms

• The helicobacter story: Once thought only as a cause of ulcers (and thus eradicated), now speculatively linked to energy metabolism and obesity (15:16–16:30).
  • Quote: “Eliminating it from our bodies maybe has something to do with this rise in obesity, along with changes in our diet.” (15:57)

9. Prebiotics, Fiber, and Gut Gas

• Explains that in addition to probiotics, what our gut bacteria need is prebiotics—indigestible fibers like inulin (35:04).
  • Jerusalem artichokes as a prime example, and their flatulence-inducing effects as a sign of healthy gut fermentation.
  • Quote: “Gas is not intrinsically a pathogenic phenomenon. It is actually a normal sign of healthy digestion.” (35:54)

Memorable Quotes & Moments with Timestamps

• “A pickle was cheaper than a candy bar. Much more satisfying.” (02:34)
• “I felt pregnant with change. I felt like something huge has to shift in my life, and I can’t quite picture what it is.” (06:10)
• “I became increasingly obsessed with these foods... What kind of food are you rotting now?” (07:45)
• “There’s no documented case history anywhere in the world of illness or food poisoning from fermented vegetables.” (12:56)
• “Bacteria are the matrix for all life and are totally essential to our functionality and well being.” (16:58)
• “Our brain chemistry... is regulated in ways that we don’t completely understand by bacteria in the gut.” (20:18)
• “What makes vegetables crunchy are pectins... The salt slows [pectin-digesting enzymes] down.” (23:44)
• “There is something really weirdly godlike about it—that you’re just manipulating this environment.” (25:09)
• “I’m putting all this energy into preparing food and environments for bacteria and yeast... so all I’m saying is, who’s controlling whom?” (25:28)
• “Gas is not intrinsically a pathogenic phenomenon. It is actually a normal sign of healthy digestion.” (35:54)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Fermentation origin story & philosophy: 00:11–04:08, 06:10–07:18
• HIV diagnosis and catalyst for change: 04:08–07:00
• Rural queer community discovery and move: 06:24–08:03
• Y2K, survival, and fermenting as skill: 08:03–10:12
• Kefir, safety, and science: 10:13–15:15
• Bacteria, health, mental health, paradigm shift: 16:30–21:30
• Salt, crunch, preservation talk: 22:25–24:45
• Power, agency, bacterial cooperation: 24:40–25:28
• Fiber, prebiotics, and gut gas: 35:04–end

Overall Tone and Style

The episode is intimate, playful, and layered, blending Katz’s earthy expertise and deep curiosity with van der Kolk’s thoughtful questions. There are repetitive and poetic refrains in Katz’s narration, intercut with lush sound design, underscoring the episode’s sense of wonder, reverence, and humor about both rot and life.

Conclusion

“Rotting with Style” is a profound and accessible ride into the heart of fermentation—as a practical craft, a metaphor for transformation, and a quiet rebellion against the war on microbes. Sandor Katz brings science, queerness, and sensuous pleasure together into a worldview that celebrates decay, resilience, and the bacteria that bind all life.