Love in a F*cked Up World – Episode 5: Mariame Kaba (11 August 2025)

Overview

In this episode of Love in a Fcked Up World*, host Dean Spade is joined by renowned abolitionist and organizer Mariame Kaba for a candid, wide-ranging conversation. Together they explore why people often act their worst in relationships, how liberatory values can clash with strong feelings, and concrete approaches to repairing community, building strong movements, and sustaining relationships. Mariame draws from decades of organizing and personal experience, engaging topics like pedestalization in movements, relationship hierarchies, the politics of romance, navigating digital "cancellation," the pitfalls of avoidance, and hope as a discipline.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Dangers of Pedestalization in Movements

• Human Fallibility and Projection
  • Mariame highlights how "pedestalizing and putting organizers up on pedestals actually is harmful to movement building and to our ability to be able to create the strong containers for action that are needed more than ever." (03:31)
  • When we idealize movement leaders, we dehumanize them, setting ourselves up for disappointment and punitive responses instead of accountable, collective repair.
  • “Often we unhuman them, we kind of are dehumanizing them and that leads to, in my opinion, oftentimes our expectations aren’t right sized.” (04:30)
• Consequences for Movements
  • Over-reliance on individuals makes communities fragile and more easily destabilized.
  • Many are afraid to take leadership roles because of the way leaders are publicly torn down.
• Misunderstandings of Accountability
  • Accountability can only exist in relationships, not between strangers or through parasocial dynamics.
  • “You can’t hold people who you have no relationship with accountable. ...You can punish them…but you can’t make someone accountable.” (08:55)
• Grace for Those Pedestalized
  • The mental health toll of being placed on a pedestal is overlooked and can lead to literal and figurative "shooting down." (10:10)

Notable Quote:

“Let us temper our criticism with kindness. None of us comes fully equipped.” — Carl Sagan, referenced by Mariame Kaba (07:40)

See Also: [03:30–11:03]

The Romance Cycle & Avoidance in Relationships

• Projection in Intimacy and Movements
  • Dean and Mariame discuss the “romance cycle”: idealizing new people/groups/lovers, then violently crashing into disappointment when imperfection emerges.
  • “It’s really good to just know it’s a big cultural thing and it doesn’t belong to me.” — Dean Spade (11:50)
• The ‘Concierge Society’ and Disempowerment
  • Mariame observes how the ethos of individualized, on-demand consumer experiences (“Doordash Uber Eats way of getting stuff delivered”) has suffused our relationships, leading to intolerance for messiness or contradiction. (12:52)
• Dominance of Avoidance
  • Dean notes how avoidance—of difficult conversations, obligations, or discomfort—has become normalized, tied to both oppressive structure and lack of practice with negotiating bumps in collective life. (15:31)

Notable Quote:

“We’re outsourcing almost everything, including our thoughts… to others who have to produce for us these perfectly packaged ways… That has infected every aspect of our relations.” — Mariame Kaba (13:10)

Memorable Moment:
Discussion of how projecting both our hopes and grievances onto movement leaders or community groups repeats early wounds around belonging, and is both individual and profoundly cultural. (11:03–16:40)

Digital Life, Pylons, and the Loss of Real Community

• Social Media and Pylons
  • Both discuss how cancellation and pylons function as modern-day coliseums, enabling people to project grievances onto public figures with little nuance or relationship. (21:38)
  • Mariame shares her mantra: “Who are you to them and who are they to you?” as a tool to right-size emotional responses to online conflict. (16:40)
  • They reflect on the isolation and powerlessness many feel online, even with “micro micro celebrity” and the lack of structural support for collective feedback and repair. (20:00–21:38)
• Solidarity in the Face of Pylons
  • Instead of avoiding those targeted, it’s an opportunity for solidarity—reaching out to support those attacked, rather than backing away out of fear. (21:41)

Notable Quote:

“It’s about our own relevance and our own smallness in the world and a need to feel recognized, part of, belong, be part of things. Sometimes we… turn that around in really corrosive ways.” — Mariame Kaba (22:14)

Loneliness, Intimacy, and Relationship Hierarchies

• Diminished Social Networks
  • Both recount how many people, especially young people, lack deep local relationships or friendships—a result of both social structure and the hyper-focus on partnership for all needs.
• Advice for Finding Community
  • “Go where people are meeting about literally anything… You gotta go find people who will help you develop and grow new solidarities.” — Dean Spade (25:20–27:04)
• Skepticism About Romance and Normative Scripts
  • Mariame reflects on rejecting traditional marriage scripts, choosing instead not to marry despite cultural/familial pressure, and the lack of representation for her context in self-help/relationship books. (28:04–36:06)
• Critique of the Romance/Marriage Fantasy
  • Discusses the persistence of the relationship hierarchy, with monogamous marriage/child-rearing at the top, as a tool of both personal and political containment.
  • Dean connects the normalization of marriage as "the fulfillment of belonging" to both right-wing “tradwife” fantasies and their recuperation in LGBTQ circles via marriage equality. (39:21–44:32)

Notable Quote:

“It’s hard for people to make sense of that when they desperately long for belonging and when people are very lonely because they’ve not been able to cultivate all the other kinds of relationships that you could have.” — Mariame Kaba (41:13)

Hope as a Discipline, Uncertainty, and Acting Together

• Hope, Faith, and Certainty
  • Mariame’s now-famous phrase “Hope is a discipline” is unpacked: “I try to explain this to people sometimes and I feel like it’s not getting through in that way and it’s okay. For me, there are things worth trying and working towards. And for me, hope is a commitment to continuing to fight and to struggle at its bottom.” (46:30–49:35)
  • Hope is not about disposition or emotion, but an action—a practice in uncertainty, embracing possibility rather than certainty.
  • “Probably what I would like people to let go of is not hope or faith. What I would like people to let go of is certainty.” (49:36)
  • She highlights human brains’ aversion to uncertainty but stresses that letting go of certainty creates possibilities for new forms of collective life. (49:36–54:46)
• Doing as Meaning-Making
  • Belonging and purpose are not feelings preceding action, but results of acting and struggling together, even amid uncertainty.
  • “...you’re here now. So the question is, what are you going to do with the precious time you have?” (63:23–67:03)
• Pleasure and Enjoyment in Collective Work
  • Part of sustaining resistance is making collective life enjoyable, resisting the grind. (67:03–67:36)

Notable Quote:

“I am willing to try some things... If we stay together long enough, I believe we’re going to be able to move closer to where we're all trying to go. That's all I can offer. I don't have certainty about Jack, OK? I am trying to figure out how these things could and could not work. If I knew for sure what the answer to everything was, why would I be here?” — Mariame Kaba (58:35)

Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On accountability and projection:
  “You can’t hold people who you have no relationship with accountable. ...You can punish them…but you can’t make someone accountable.” — Mariame Kaba (08:55)

• On solidarity against pylons:
  “If I see that happening to someone even a little bit, I should reach out and let them know, like, I care about them, I appreciate what they’re doing.” — Dean Spade (21:16)

• On the necessity and challenge of letting go of certainty:
  “I think for me, doing hope means that I constantly see possibility, constantly see possibility for transformation, for change…But it is actually antithetical to the way our brains work right now…” — Mariame Kaba (49:46)

• On meaning and doing:
  “We want meaning in our lives... oftentimes, I think in social movements, we’re calling on people to speak to and fight on that terrain of meaning and purpose, right?... But what is it? How are you deriving that? That’s what’s going to get us going.” — Mariame Kaba (63:23)

• On curiosity vs. judgment:
  “Curiosity and judgment can't coexist. If you're feeling the judgment coming up, ask a question.” — Mariame Kaba (67:51)

Timestamp Guide for Key Segments

• [03:31–11:03] — Pedestalization and accountability in movements
• [11:03–16:40] — Projection, the romance cycle, and avoidance in relationships
• [20:00–23:48] — Social media pylons, cancel culture, and the need for real relationships
• [25:20–28:04] — Friendship, loneliness, and advice for community building
• [28:04–41:13] — Romance, marriage scripts, and cultural influences
• [41:13–44:32] — Tradwife/romantic hierarchy backlash and LGBTQ cooptation
• [46:30–49:36] — Hope as action not emotion, discipline not disposition
• [49:36–54:46] — Letting go of certainty, brain science, and collective possibility
• [63:23–67:03] — Meaning/purpose through doing, collective pleasure and enjoyment

Conclusion

This rich, challenging episode weaves together the personal and political, unflinchingly exploring where our movement and relationship dynamics collide with dominant culture, projection, and toxic loneliness. Mariame Kaba and Dean Spade urge listeners toward collectivity, curiosity, and the pleasure of trying together — even (and especially) when certainty and guarantees are out of reach. Whether discussing social media pylons, romance narratives, or the daily act of hope, their conversation is a sustaining toolkit for anyone building strong relationships inside and outside struggle.

Recommended action:
Don’t listen alone—read, discuss, or listen with others, and bring the conversation to your collective spaces.