Love Your Life Show: Breaking Free from Shame + Codependency with Dr. Zoe Shaw

Podcast: Love Your Life Show: Personal Growth, Mindset, + Habits for Busy Moms
Host: Susie Pettit
Guest: Dr. Zoe Shaw – Psychotherapist, Life/Relationship Coach, author of Stronger in the Difficult Places
Date: November 19, 2025
Episode Theme:
How shame, especially in its complex form, intertwines with codependency in women's lives (especially during midlife), and how to break free to find real self-acceptance, healthier relationships, and personal growth.

Episode Overview

This empowering conversation between Susie Pettit and Dr. Zoe Shaw centers on understanding the nature of shame – particularly “complex shame” – and how it underlies codependency. They unpack how these patterns show up uniquely for women, the barriers to healing, and offer hope and practical wisdom for anyone eager to break free from the cycle. Dr. Zoe candidly shares both her clinical expertise and personal journey, making the episode deeply relatable and actionable.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Focus on Ourselves? Healing Over Fixing Others

• Dr. Zoe explains her philosophy: “We’re not fixing them, we’re fixing you, and that changes everything.” (03:20)
  • The most important relationship is the one we have with ourselves – setting the tone for every other relationship, including with God and family. (05:10)
  • Trying to change others is a losing battle; real transformation begins with self-healing.

2. The Power in Our "Cracked Cup"

• Notable metaphor: “A cracked cup can still hold water.” (05:50)
  • Our "brokenness" or imperfections don’t mean we are unworthy or useless—growth and strength often emerge from those difficult places.
  • “Just because we're cracked sometimes doesn't mean we can't do all the things that we were put on this earth here to do.” – Dr. Zoe (04:30)

3. Shame vs. Guilt: Core Differences

• Guilt: “I've done something wrong.” (08:20)
• Shame: “I am wrong.” (08:30)
  • Guilt can be healthy and encourage positive change; shame is always unhealthy and causes hiding, feeling unworthy, and distance from others.

4. Simple Shame vs. Complex Shame

• Simple Shame: Can be dissipated with compassion and connection, akin to what Brene Brown describes. (10:40)
• Complex Shame: Dr. Zoe’s term for shame that sticks, woven through multiple experiences, often rooted in developmental trauma, marginalization, or recurring patterns (e.g., addiction, family rejection, chronic self-sabotage). (11:40)
  • External compassion is ineffective; sufferers believe, “No, but I’m different” or “You don’t understand how bad I really am.” (13:22)
  • Often compounded by gaslighting, invalidation by others, or self-blame cycles, making it extremely persistent.

5. Codependency as a Response to Shame

• Codependency: “Looking outside of ourselves to say that we're okay, versus…sourcing it from the inside.” – Susie (20:33)
• Shame leads us to abandon ourselves for others' approval, creating shallow, unfulfilling relationships and chronic self-neglect.

6. Midlife and the Shame/Codependency Shift

• Biological and life-stage changes (e.g., hormonal shifts, loss, reflection) make women less willing to tolerate old, self-abandoning patterns. (18:40)
  • Explains the rise in “grey divorces” and a surge in women redefining themselves in their 40s and 50s.
  • These shifts, while disruptive, present powerful growth opportunities.

7. The Compulsion to Minimize Our Shame

• Listeners often compare their pain to others and dismiss their struggles (“Who am I to be upset when others have it worse?”).
  • “That is the shame.” – Dr. Zoe (24:56)

8. Dr. Zoe’s Personal Story: Moving from Complex Shame to Self-Compassion

• Early racial identity trauma; pregnancy at 15 and being sent away; forced adoption; academic/athletic overachievement as hiding mechanisms; marrying young in fundamental religious context. (25:00–29:00)
• Profound shame after her kept daughter was born with a genetic disorder; belief she was being punished.
• Healing journey: “All behavior makes sense in its context.” (22:11)
  • Pivotal lesson: Forgiveness is giving up all hope of a better past. (22:35)
  • Coming to terms with her past and embracing her wholeness opened her ability to help others.

9. Ongoing Practice: Managing Shame—Not Expecting Its Disappearance

• Shame is ever-present in society and will inevitably surface.
  • Dr. Zoe: “The goal is to learn how to maintain it in such a way that it does not sabotage or rule your life…when shame comes, I pause, I identify it…I watch it come and I watch it pass me. And I speak up.” (30:00)
  • This is maintenance (step 9 in her framework): mindfully observing shame and choosing openness, not retreat.

10. Breaking Patterns – Hard Conversations, Vulnerability, and Relationship Growth

• “The thing that kills intimacy is lack of vulnerability.” (32:00)
• For women awakening to their true selves in midlife:
  • Start with small, honest conversations; don’t try to “fix” by being everything all at once, nor blame the partner for old patterns. (33:15–34:19)
  • “Be big. Yes, be big. All of what you are…Just recognize you need to give your partner a little empathy because he’s not ready for it.” (36:00)

11. The Codependency Recovery Pendulum

• Recovery often means swinging from doormat/codependency to hyper-independence ("ice queen")—the challenge is to find the healthy balance, the gray space in between. (37:00)
• Support and professional help can ease this transition.

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On the universality of struggle:
  “All humans have something—like we do even in the penthouse...You can still feel crap. It's okay.” – Susie (07:05)
• On the “cracked cup” metaphor:
  “It’s amazing that a cracked cup can still hold water.” – Dr. Zoe’s accountant (05:43)
• On why shame persists for some:
  “External compassion does nothing...She says, ‘They don’t understand. I don’t deserve that compassion.’ And so her shame stays.” – Dr. Zoe (11:40)
• On forgiveness:
  “Forgiveness is giving up all hope of a better past.” – Dr. Zoe (22:35)
• For women feeling weak because of codependency/shame:
  “If you've got all this stuff going on, it's because you're strong, but you don't need to be holding on to it.” – Dr. Zoe (39:00)
• On continued growth and shame:
  “Shame is something that runs our society, it always has and it always will. The goal is not to never experience shame. The goal is to learn how to maintain it in such a way that it does not sabotage or rule your life.” – Dr. Zoe (29:25)
• On being in relationship during personal growth:
  "Acknowledge that things are going to be different as opposed to just showing up and changing everything with no explanation and blaming him as if he’s the problem." – Dr. Zoe (34:00)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:00] – Dr. Zoe explains the “fixing you, not them” philosophy
• [05:50] – Cracked cup metaphor & power amid brokenness
• [08:10] – Distinguishing guilt from shame
• [11:40] – Complex shame: definition, examples, why Brene Brown's approach sometimes fails
• [16:30] – How invalidation and family dynamics deepen shame
• [18:40] – Codependency, midlife, and why patterns change as we age
• [22:35] – “Forgiveness is giving up all hope of a better past”
• [25:00–29:00] – Dr. Zoe’s personal story of shame, trauma, and healing
• [30:00] – Practical maintenance for ongoing shame
• [32:00] – How lack of vulnerability erodes relationships
• [36:00] – Encouragement to "be big" without swinging to hyper-independence

Final Encouragements

• You are strong, not weak. Codependency and complex shame are not signs of deficiency but of survival and strength misdirected—those strengths can be reclaimed for your own freedom.
• Shame thrives in secrecy; healing begins with openness and connection.
• Your story matters. Don’t compare your pain to someone else’s—compassion starts within.

Dr. Zoe’s resources:

• Book: Stronger in the Difficult Places (recommended as a continual reference)
• Podcast: Stronger in the Difficult Places

For further support and resources, see the episode show notes for links.