A (6:06)

I'm like, preach it. Yes, I, I, yes to all of that. And I want to sort of underline the two pieces there that have helped me in my relationships, but also with shame. What you spoke of is, is, is what your accountant said. That's so funny that, you know, broken glasses still hold water, right?

B (6:29)

A cracked cup.

A (6:30)

Yeah, thank you.

B (6:34)

Not if they're totally shattered, but yes.

A (6:36)

The cracked cup, exactly. Like broken glasses don't. But you know, when we have these errors or even that, that, that mistakes happen, sort of this, I think that's one of the challenges in, when we are not working on our relationship with ourselves, we're trying to be so perfect and to hold and everything together and have no cracks in our glasses and no mishaps when we're repeating things on podcasts or whatever. And when we can just be like, oh, yeah, people make mistakes. That can be a nice little balm to shame. Also, what you spoke to and I really appreciate with, you know, your work with celebrities and your work with just the average person is that humans struggle. Like, that's something I'm often saying. Like all humans have something like we do even in the penthouse. Like, yes, they're even in the White House water. Like, it's like we all have these experiences and, and I think for me, that's another area where I would work to bring shame to myself would be like, well, Susie, you have it good enough. Like, who are you to feel, you know, xyz? But it's like, no, this is just your thing right now. Like, yes, you do have running water and you do live in a nice place and you can still feel crap. Like it's okay.

B (7:55)

All the things. Yes, yes.

A (7:58)

Yeah, I really like. So can you. Speaking of this shame and complex. You talk about complex shame and healing from complex shame. Can you tell us a little more about what that, like, what even is complex shame?

B (8:14)

Yes. And, and a lot of people don't know what it is because it's a term that I termed, I coined it. And so first I want to explain to the person listening out there the difference between guilt and shame. And a lot of people might know it, but for those of you who don't, guilt is an emotional state. It's a feeling that tells yourself, because all feelings send us messages. Guilt says, I've done something wrong, I've done something to break my moral code. And so when we've done something to break our moral code, we feel something. Now, there is such a thing as invalid guilt, mom guilt is one of those, and plenty of us carry those around. And I'm not going to talk about the invalid guilt. It tells us the same thing. It's a lie, but valid guilt is healthy. And it says, I've broken my moral code. And so with guilt, what we can do is we can make a decision, we can go back and repair. We can't always fix things that we've done, but we can try, right? And then even if we can't fix it, we can make a decision, I will not do that again. So there's something to do with guilt, which is why it's a healthy emotion. It moves us towards healthier behavior. Shame is very different. And it is a mind state, emotional state that says, I am wrong, I as a person am wrong, I am unworthy. And because it's so attached to our identity, there's nothing for us to do except hide. So shame in all its forms is an unhealthy emotion that forces us to hide and then creates a whole gamut of other issues. Distance, codependency. Shame distances us in our relationships. It distances us in every aspect of our life, and it also causes codependency. So that's shame in all states. Now, the thing about shame is that when you have what I call simple shame, the kind of shame that Brene Brown talks about, when you speak about it, when you finally become brave and you talk to somebody about you, your shame, and they actually give you external compassion when they tell you it's okay, it wasn't your fault. We all feel that way. Just like we were talking in the beginning, we all have something, right? And so you shouldn't be ashamed. When we get that experience, our shame actually dissipates when we have simple shame, but when we have complex shame, it doesn't work. And so a lot of people, especially when they're trying to alleviate shame and they apply the Bernie Brown type shame principle and, and their shame stays, then they feel even worse. And there's a couple of reasons the first reason is that when someone gives you external compassion because you have complex shame, your shame is not just tied to your identity, but it's kind of woven around a lot of other things. So you've had a sense of. You've had a shaming incident. You then tend to hide, Right. Sabotage yourself in that, sabotaging in that. Running from yourself and running from your shame. You've hurt yourself. You've done things. I'll give you an example. I have a client who is a smoker, and she has a lot of shame about smoking. She ended up having a heart attack, and she then kept smoking after the heart attack. And so she's had a history of hiding her smoking, hiding, you know, her heart attack, hiding that she's continuing to smoke. And so when she does do something like tell someone, oh, you know, I'm a smoker. I used to be a smoker. And someone's like, oh, you know, addictions are hard. It's okay, I understand. My mom smokes or whatever. Her shame does not go away because in her mind, she says, oh, but you don't understand. My smoking led to this. And also, I'm still doing it even after a heart attack. And all these things that she's attached to her shame, that's a very simple explanation. And so that external compassion does nothing. And to herself, she says, they don't understand. I don't deserve that compassion. And so her shame stays. Another reason why complex shame cannot. Still stays, I should say, when someone becomes vulnerable is because. And this happens a lot in marginalized societies and marginalized people is that they get gaslit for their shame. So they finally become vulnerable enough to talk about it. And someone looks at them and says, that's not really happening. That didn't happen. Or you just looked at it the wrong way. And they just tell them that their experience, their lived experience, was not real. And so their shame just spirals deeper. Now, the other thing about people with complex shame is they also internalize, as opposed to externalize their shame. And so they tend to be people who take on blame. And so that's the difference between simple shame and complex shame.

A (13:02)

Oh, I'm like, there's so much there. Because I'm like, yeah, I feel like that's like everyone listening that internalizing it.

B (13:09)

And.

A (13:10)

And. And I think you said, like, a stickiness to complex shame. Like, it doesn't, you know, it's not like, okay, I get it.

B (13:17)

Like, addictions collects all kinds of things as it continues to roll through your life.

A (13:22)

Yeah, of These like, oh, no, I think what comes up for me and then people that I coach is this. This thought of, like, no, but I'm different. Like, even when you get that Brene Brown validation, it, like, there's this little, like, mean voice. No, they don't really understand. Like, no, I did it worse than they ever could have imagined. Or exactly so broken.

B (13:45)

Right?

A (13:46)

Like, no, they just don't get it type place. Yes.

B (13:49)

And I have a client that does that all the time, and she wants to tell me how terrible she is, and I acknowledge it, and we talk about it. She's like, oh, no, no, no, but you don't understand. And she wants to tell me more. Like, she needs me to validate her lack of worth, which I absolutely refuse to do. But one of the things that needs to happen with complex shame that doesn't tend to happen, especially in the therapy room, is that, especially if someone is victimized and they have complex shame as a result. Our natural tendency as humans and even as therapists is to say, but it wasn't your fault. You couldn't have done anything. And that does not work with complex shame, because complex shame has that part that says, oh, I can think of a million things I could have done differently. It is my fault. And so what we have to do is actually work with that, with which seems like we're victim blaming, have worked with clients and said, okay, let's. Let's look at your fault here. Let's look at the blame that you have towards yourself. Let's open it up. Let's acknowledge that you could have done something different. And then your brain's like, wait, wait, wait, wait. Okay. And so then when we start to acknowledge the blame and what we could have done different, when we start to untangle all the things we've attached to our shame and we're able to forgive ourselves for that, then shame begins to unravel.

A (15:08)

Yes. And I thank you very much for that. And I, I, I've done that dance, and it's so delicate. But. But what it is there is, like, I always think of shame loves, like, darkness and secrecy. And, like, you know, I feel like shame feels like ooze to me. Like, it's like a black ooze when I feel it. And then I'm like, shame just sits there in the darkness and is icky. And so when we can do what you just said and, you know, in a therapist's office is to sit and be like, okay, tell me about that. Like, how, how is your brain telling you this? Is your responsibility. And, and lighten that up a little. Like, okay, maybe, maybe you did get. Have a heart attack because you're still smoking. And, and so now what? Like, is there a place for us to be, like, back to square one. Like, you know, we people are not perfect. So maybe, you know, that this, this, this, this is coming up. And I, I appreciate you too, speaking to marginalized people and people who've had some shame experiences, because this comes up in childhood. Like, someone will say, you know, well, my childhood was different. You know, my dad was never around when he was there. And then we have a mom that's like, yes, he was. He came home, like, right then. Or another sibling is like, yeah, he was. He was around enough for me. And it's like, okay. And he wasn't for me. But my whole experience has just been discounted.

B (16:31)

That happens so often. And the reality is, is that it's okay. And we have to get to that point where we recognize that two people can be in the same place and have two extremely opposite experiences. And we imagine that the person we're standing next to is having the very same experience that we are, and they're not. And they can't, because they're not you. Because they. We all see the, the world through a different lens, and we all see the world. We come to any point in existence with all of our needs, all of our experiences, right? And people have different needs. So if you don't need something in that moment and someone else does, they're going to have a feeling of lack, and you won't. And so we have to understand it. It's so. And that's where so much pain happens in relationships. That sense of disconnect. It's about, you know, that shame and that feeling that they don't get me. And the story we create is because there's something wrong with me.

A (17:30)

Yeah. Oh, that's so good. It's like, like, because I was just thinking of the sibling that's like, no, dad was home enough. And it's like speaking to what you were saying with the needs, it's like, okay, maybe dad was home enough for that sibling's needs, but you had different needs. And we don't even have shame that you had different needs. He wasn't around enough for your needs. And then what I'm hearing in the relationship, I guess, is that conversation that you'll hear all the time where it's like, you know, I didn't feel heard or I didn't. And then you have the spouse Saying, but I did. I said this and I did this. And it's. So the intent is not dismissive, but the impact was dismissive. And to be able to have the maturity and the band within your system, to be able to say to someone in a relationship, like, okay, I get like, I. I get like, I had the intent that I wanted to support you, and I can understand how you needed more in that moment. Tell me more.

B (18:23)

Different.

A (18:25)

Yeah, that's. That's so hard. So. So how do you see. And we've been saying some of these, but I'm wondering if you have any other ideas of how do you see complex shame showing up, like, in midlife for people, if they're sort of like.

B (18:39)

Oh, yeah, so I love that you. You mentioned midlife, because I'm going to start a. But complex shame, as I said, creates codependency. And when we are younger and we are codependent, we tend to. What I talk about in the book is we abandon ourselves in service of trying to please somebody else because we imagine if we can contort. Because remember, shame makes us hide. So we're hiding our real selves. And then when people love us in relationship, there's a part of us that doesn't feel loved because we say, because we know they don't really know the full as we're hiding. Right. And so then we respond to them as if they don't love us. And it kind of creates this whole cycle. But what happens is we tend to get into these codependent relationships where we've abandoned ourselves to be in relationship with others. And there's something that happens when midlife comes around, and part of it has to do with, you know, our hormones changing that actually create, you know, that nurturing aspect of the codependency which helps us to kind of stay stuck in these difficult places. Those chemicals, those. Those hormones begin to leave us, and all of a sudden it makes it harder for us to put up with things that we tended to put up with before. And so a lot of strife tends to happen. It's why we have this crazy number of gray divorces now, women and their 40s, 50s, 60s, divorcing, because we're no longer willing to put up with what we put up with before, but we put up with it because we were codependent, and we were codependent because we had shame. And so what we need to do instead is to work on. On that complex shame.

A (20:25)

That's so fascinating. And I definitely. I mean, that was my life.

B (20:29)

Yeah.

A (20:30)

In terms of I very much. And codependency again, I guess just a quick definition here for people. I just like saying, like, in codependency, we're looking for the other person's. We're looking outside of ourselves to say that we're okay versus, like, sourcing it from the inside. So for me, if I was looking outside of myself, I would look to my dad. And if my dad thought I was okay, then I was okay. So I just was like that, you know, little girl that. Doing everything dad wanted me to do. And then I married a man that was very much like my dad. So then as long as. And I was very fake to myself, to him, he thought he was, you know, what you see is what you get. But to me, I'm like, no, I. And so went through that for a bit until around 40, got a little sick of it. And I was a little earlier than the hormones because I had a life experience. One of my friends died. And that sometimes happens, too, in midlife that you get that you're like, time is limited. What am I doing? Being this pretend shell of myself. Hold on. Coming out and just being like, this isn't me. And. And the other person possibly being like, well, that's sort of a bait and switch, because what. You know, I just. I think it's interesting and I love that people have the resource of your book and your podcast to hold themselves in that place without the shame, because that was. That was very important for me. To not beat past Susie up like I was, to just like, I get it, girl. Like, you were following so much of what was programmed for you. If we were going to go back, yeah, maybe, you know, there were different moments where you could have spoken up and been more authentic, but at the time didn't freaking happen.

B (22:11)

And part of. Of healing from complex shame is understanding that all behavior makes sense in its context. All the things that you did, all the choices that you made make complete sense because of your temperament, your. Your personality, your life experiences, everything that came together. And when we're able to accept that. That all of our behavior made sense in its context, then we're also able to do something that is crucial to overcoming complex shame. And I haven't even shared my personal story and all my shame story with you. But the crucial thing is that we have to give up all hope of a better past. And that's what I call forgiveness. And I love that definition of forgiveness, because it's not applied to a specific person. It's not even pointed at us. It's Just saying forgiveness is giving up all hope of a better past. And so even when I talk about the fact that, you know, all of these things happen to you in midlife because of your complex shame and your codependency, and when you finally do what you should be, doing, the strong thing and standing up, often the people we're in relationship with aren't able to tolerate it. And so it's not that you are now doing a bad thing and ending a relationship if that happens, or you're, you know, you're destroying or. Or disrupting your relationship unnecessarily. It's just the reality of your growth towards health. It's sometimes hard for a relationship to hold that if the relationship has been dysfunctional for such a long time.

A (23:42)

Yeah. To not get into that defensive pattern. I. I very much.

B (23:45)

Yeah.

A (23:46)

Hear that. Yeah. So tell us. Tell us your story, Doctor. Sorry, I totally skipped right in. I'm like, listeners. Get to the good.

B (23:53)

Yeah, it is. Okay. And, you know, in many ways, my story, it doesn't matter, because what matters is the concept of complex shame. But I share my story so that people understand the journey that I've been through. And yet my story is kind of, you know, a lot. And so people will also say, well, you're, you know, you. You went through a lot. Could I still have complex shame because I didn't have those, you know, experiences? And my answer is, absolutely, you can.

A (24:22)

Well, they're shaping themselves in their shame, which is so fascinating. Like, yeah, it's like, wait a minute. I mean, I hear that all the time. Well, I'm not like. Like, I didn't have that or. Or, like, you know, well, I wasn't. I'm actually reading this. This new book, and in it, he was the Science of Happiness. He talks about something where he talked about his past, and it was, like, atrocious. And I found myself doing exactly what you're saying. It's like, oh, well, who am I to be upset about this then? Because they had it worse. It's like, listeners, that's the shame.

B (24:56)

That is the shame.

A (24:57)

That is the shame.

B (24:58)

And that's also why I say in many ways, my story doesn't matter because you, the listener, your story matters. And that's what I want you to focus on. But sometimes people can resonate with or can. Can understand, you know, some parts of mind. So I. And in my book, I talk about all the different types of shame. But I developed very early growing up a black girl in a white community. We moved from Washington, D.C. which was very diverse to this little small white farming town in Maryland full of, you know, there were plenty of Mennonites and Amish that I was went to school with, and not the Amish, because Amish went to their own, the Mennonites. And so I. I developed racial identity issues very early on. Just very confused about, you know, the color of my skin and what that meant, because I heard a lot of messages that told me it meant very bad things. And my. I also grew up in a fundamental Christian home, and my dad was a prominent doctor in the community. And I became pregnant at 15. And when my parents found out, the, you know, their response was, this is not happening here. And so they sent me away to a pregnancy home in Virginia, which is about four hours away, with the understanding that I would come back without a child. And me being the compliant, already burgeoning codependent girl that I was, I did what my parents wanted and I gave birth to my daughter and Virginia and medicated, and I left her in the hospital and came back home to pretend like nothing happened. And she was adopted, of course. And so that's where my complex shame really began to develop. And I went back home to pretend, and I hid in accomplishments. I academically did extremely well. Athletically, I did extremely well. I got a scholarship to ucla, and I ran and hid in many ways, you know, from my shame. And I got married very early, as we often do in fundamental Christian communities, because I grew up in the purity culture. Yes. Yes. And so I did. When I was 19, I got married and I went on to, you know, work and compete. And when I had my first kept daughter, she was born with a very rare genetic disorder. And I, at that time believed that I was being punished, that she and I were both being punished for.

A (27:25)

I was crying at that part in your book. Yeah, Poor giving birth. Poor Zoe.

B (27:34)

Yeah. And I did, you know, I was just in a cesspool of shame. I believe that we were both being punished for what I had done and placing my daughter for adoption years before. And so that really kind of broke the dam of my shame. And I went through a long process of learning to speak up, of struggling with codependency and complex shame and understanding what it is and seeing it in my patients and working to help them and me and labeling it and all those kinds of things. But I went on my own shame journey, which eventually. What's the word?

A (28:07)

Culminated. Culminated.

B (28:09)

Which eventually culminated in me telling my family, unfortunately, in my tragic father's death at his funeral, and learning to Speak up and. And heal myself and forgive myself. So that's, you know, in a nutshell. More of it is in the book my story of complex shame and how I came to help myself and others.

A (28:34)

Right. And I'm really hearing that. That forgiveness definition that you have there, like, not. It's with that, like, it's like the wiser part of ourselves, like the wiser, older part. That's like, I get it. Like, I get why you did that, and I get why, you know, you felt that. And. And we didn't have that validation when we were younger. Right. But I guess that's part of the healing. Yeah. Thank you very much for sharing that. And it is incredibly touching and all the things. And yes, of course you have the ability to speak to complex shame because you're like, I've got it. So, so do you notice it coming up now in your relationship, like in your life? And then how do you deal with it? Now?

B (29:23)

That's an excellent question. Because the answer is, yes, I have this nine step framework for complex shame. And the ninth step is maintenance. Because shame is something that runs our society. It always has and it always will. And because of that, we will always experience shame. The goal is not to never experience shame. The goal is to learn how to maintain it in such a way that it does not sabotage or rule your life. It does not cause you to hide. And so shame shows up for me regularly. And when it does, I pause, I identify it. I literally say to myself, oh, I know what that is, that shame. And what I am not going to do is what shame asks me to do, which is to hide. Instead, I'm going to speak up. And so when shame comes, I almost imagine that I'm just watching it as if I'm standing by a riverbank and it's just flowing by. And I watch it come and I watch it pass me and I watch it go and I speak up.

A (30:23)

Yeah. So listeners, I just want to highlight. She said that's step nine. So we need to get the book. So we do. Because that is. That is advanced level and I. Of the processing of shame and allowing it, not running, not, you know, I mean, shame would love it. If you're like, oh, shame is here. Shove it back in the secrecy and in the dark, you're like, I'm just gonna be here and do something differently with it. Which is. Which is very helpful. What, what would you say to the. The listener who is experiencing, you know, some unhealthy relationship patterns in a relationship? Say you're in midlife, and you are realizing that you have been pretending a bit and, you know, just in a protective way. And you're now, like, getting into more being yourself. And. And there are now these patterns in your relationship that aren't so healthy. How do you. How do you support women in. In those.

B (31:23)

Yeah. The best advice that I can give is to do the opposite of what shame wants us to do, which is stay quiet and hide. Right. And so what that means is that shame demands that we have hard conversations. And it's funny because the longer we are in a relationship, sometimes the more distance we experience, we can be. We can get to a place where we are literally strangers in a home. And we would talk more to a, you know, a stranger than we would cashier.

A (31:53)

Right? Yeah. Like, tell them more. Like, I'm having a really hard time. Right, right.

B (31:58)

And so the. The thing that kills intimacy is lack of vulnerability. And when we cease to be vulnerable with our partners, intimacy will fade. And then we think, well, it's just over. We're just part. We're just gonna be roommates. And, you know, so the answer is to have hard conversations. Now, it doesn't mean that you need to sit down and talk for six hours and just share everything that you haven't shared in the past 10 years. But what it does mean is that you need to start. You need to start to have a conversation that might look something like, you know, I've changed and grown over these years, and there's some things I'm noticing about myself that I want to lean a little bit more into. And it may be kind of uncomfortable in our relationship because I'm not the 25 year old or whatever, you know, you were with your partner when you got married and just acknowledging that truth. Because to be honest with you, many men, especially, especially as women come into middle age, there is an awakening, there is a change that happens. That's not often the same path that happens with men. And they are blindsided. And I do feel a lot of empathy for men when they come into my office and they're like, what happened to my wife?

A (33:15)

What's going on? Right. That she was before.

B (33:17)

And my answer is she's not. She's not that person anymore. She's not bad, she's not evil, but she is different. And how can you accept and honor this new person that she's becoming? Right. But there's often nobody to talk to your partner about that. And so you have to be the one. And so just by acknowledging things are going to Be different as opposed to just showing up and changing everything with no explanation and blaming him as if he's the problem. He might be, but that also is still not helpful. Right. When you take accountability that things are going to be changing and it's me and it's because I'm changing. And my ask is that you work on accepting this. Sometimes that's an entirely different conversation. And then little by little you can open up, you can talk, you can change some of the unspoken rules in your marriage when you've acknowledged this instead of just saying, I'm not taking this anymore and this isn't.

A (34:19)

Yeah, I mean that's where I think working with a professional is super helpful because it is. You can have someone who's listening feeling very, you know, very like almost crawling out of their skin like they want to be different and you know, like the hormones are gone. It's like we want to be more authentic or whatever. And, and sometimes that can. So you have this real desire that is great, but sometimes we then go too big with it and it's more dramatic or we're more, you know, blaming. I see this a lot like a woman having more needs and then blaming or feeling resentful towards the husband for not somehow magically reading her mind or doing the things that she knows. And, and, and that's where it can really just sort of catapult on itself. And so I like what you're saying is that just like just start small, just say something, you know, just start somewhere and small. It doesn't have to be a two day conversation, but a, like I've been some sort of vulnerability there. I'm feeling differently, I'm feeling more, you know, like I'm noticing our separation and it's, it's bothering me because I love you and I, I always thought like we, you know, journeying our horses off to the sunset that, that can meet someone, you know, because the, what you're talking about with men I see also is they're like, wait a minute, like we followed the rule. Like we've done that. You know, if you talk about like the typical relationship pattern in a patriarchal society, it's like, no, no, no, I've, I've done the thing, I've provided and now we're almost at the like, let's just be on those horses, lady. And she's like, I think I want a camel. It's like, wait, what?

B (36:00)

Like what happened to you? And for the woman listening, I want to say that you don't have to be Small you should be. And get to be all the bigness. Be big. Yes, Be big. All of what you are. I'm just asking you to recognize that you need to give your partner a little empathy because he's not ready for it. Yes. Helping him get used to all of your beautiful bigness is a part of kind of what you should be doing in the relationship.

A (36:31)

Well, and I really like that especially. Right, Exactly. I know. And it's. It's your other title of the reckon with her and the. It's like, no, we want you to be big. Like I. That we want women to show up big. But it is that I often think of codependency like a pendulum. And so on one side we have codependency where we're like hiding ourselves and doing everything for the other person. And in recovery, we often swing all the way to the other side, which is like hyper independent. And it's like, screw you, I'm taking the camel. And you. And what we're just asking for here is a little bit of the gray in between, like, understanding you've got this man who's with you, so he's obviously invested in the relationship in some way. Like just considering both. Not only considering him, but not also not only considering you.

B (37:20)

Right. Yes. I love you talking about the pendulum swing because I often talk about that when, you know, when we are in a state of dis health and especially when we really want to change things, we often do that pendulum swing. And the other side of the pendulum is also unhealthy.

A (37:37)

Oh, for sure.

B (37:39)

Just as unhealthy as the one side you are on. And so we have to instead bring it back to the middle and say moderation. Right. What is healthy? Let's look at that. Just let me do the opposite.

A (37:50)

I call it like, on the codependent side is like you're a doormat. And then on the other side, it's like your ice queen. You know, I don't need anyone like.

B (37:59)

Right.

A (37:59)

We just need a little bit in the middle there. And often it can be a nice professional like you that can help through that. And I gotta say, I think this is a good part to wrap up. But your book is an excellent resource for this. Your podcast for sure. If they're listening to this podcast, that means they like podcasts. So go search Dr. Zoe Shaw on. I'll put all the links below in the show notes. But for your. Your podcast and then your book is a just. Just an amazing resource of a deeper dive. You will want a highlighter order it, get it and. And feel supported. What else can we say as we're winding up here? Is there something that you'd like to say in the ear of the woman who's like, oh, my God, I have complex shame everywhere?

B (38:43)

Yes. You know, when it comes to codependency and complex shame, a lot of people think this is a weakness and actually it's born out of strength. You're using your strength in the wrong place. You're using your strength in a codependent place to try to control your partner's emotions so that you feel better. Right. You're using your strength to hide and hold onto burdens that you really shouldn't be carrying. But it's not about weakness, it's about strength. And we can use that same strength to get to freedom. And, and, and so I just want to say to women out there who may be feeling like, I feel so weak, and my answer is, if you've got all this stuff going on, it's because you're strong, but you don't need to be holding on to it.

A (39:30)

Oh, yeah. I'm like, we need some music. Woohoo. Thank you, Dr. Zoe, for coming on. It's going to help so many people. Yay.

B (39:39)

I love everything that you are doing, so thank you for the work that you're doing.

A (39:43)

I love you. I'm just a big supporter of yours, so yay. Thank you.