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Love Your Life Show: Personal Growth, Mindset, + Habits for Busy Moms
How to Stop Feeling Resentful in Marriage and Motherhood | Conversation with Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife
00:48:21
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- [00:01]
A
Hello, listeners. Today on the show, I have a guest that I have wanted to get on the show since the very beginning of the Love youe Life show. I have Dr. Jennifer Finlayson Fife on the show today. She is a relationship and sexuality coach with a PhD in counseling psychology. Her teaching and coaching focus on helping people just like you and me, create greater connection and passion and in their emotional and sexual relationships specifically, my dear listeners, she helps us feel less resentment, less irritation, less irritated. Annoyed. I was going to say annoyance. I don't even know if that's a word, but that's. That's how she has helped me in my relationships. And I cannot wait for you to listen. She has a private practice. She has empowering and highly reviewed online courses, some of which I've taken. They're amazing. She also offers in person workshops and retreats. She is the creator and host of Room for Two, which we'll speak about briefly on this episode, which is a wonderful and popular coaching podcast. I am so excited to get her on the show. Let me bring her on and stop my talking so you can just bathe in her wisdom. Also.
- [01:21]
B
Hi. This is the Love youe Life show with Susie Pettit, certified life and wellness coach. Join Susie as she helps you with your wellness and mindset so you can live a life you love. Let's go, warriors.
- [01:37]
A
And welcome to the Love youe Life Show. Dr. Jennifer Finlayson Fife, I am so excited to have you here. It's so fun to connect with you. Before this interview, I just. I just love podcasts and for the opportunity to meet other people, you know, quote unquote in real life and have a connection. And I'm grateful that you took time to come on the show today.
- [01:59]
B
Well, thanks for having me. Good to be here.
- [02:01]
A
Yeah, I'm psyched. And I really wanted to have you on. In case my listeners have not heard of you, which it's very possible they haven't, because I find, like, some people, like, if they've heard of you, they've heard everything about you, and they've. They're just like, deep dive. But then others are like, huh? And I'm like, oh, my gosh, wait, let me show share something with you. And specifically, you were just a master with marriages and relationships and speak of them in an empowering way that many don't. In my own life, you've really helped me get rid of resentment and step into a more mature way of relating. And so I would just love to start sort of you specifically speaking of the whole framework for relationships that you have. Just saying that they're. There's containers for our development or they're people, developers and help us see ourselves more clearly. For the person who hasn't heard of you or of your work, can you share a bit more about how this role of partnerships with regards to human development?
- [03:05]
B
Well, I would say when I was a young person really valued marriage. I really wanted to get married. And I also saw that a lot of people around me did not seem very happily married. Like maybe they were when they fell in love. But I could see resentment and I could see distance in couples. And I was like, I want to get married, but I don't want to be that. I don't want that experience. And so I just naturally kind of gravitated towards. I wanted to figure out how people. Why they were happily married when they were and what was happening in marriages that were solid and happy, joyful. So, you know, that was my focus of my PhD and my dissertation and sexuality specifically. But one of the things that in the, you know, years that I've worked with couples and taught courses to help people understand the principles, the. If I were to summarize what it is, is that when we fall in love, we have foundational similarities. Often when we choose a partner, similar religious background, similar socioeconomic background, but then we're drawn to difference, like eros attraction. This eros love specifically, really thrives in longing and the pursuit of mystery. And so when we fall in love, we feel this. Like there's something about them that just compels me, that intrigues me, that lights me up. And so much of that draw, you know, it's not so much irrational as it's super rational. It's above rationality. There's something that the soul is seeking in the soul of the other. The problem is, of course, because you've married someone that's so different than you usually. Like, introverts are drawn to extroverts. And people that are very careful and cautious are often drawn to people that are spontaneous and carefree and it feels great. And you're falling in love because you have this sense of psychic wholeness. To quote Jung, you have a sense of like, completion and acceptance. But then you start trying to build a life together and you're like, this person that I thought was going to make me happy is now ruining my.
- [05:25]
A
Life because they want all the wrong things.
- [05:28]
B
Yeah. And so. And so most of us get fixated on how to change the other person, how to get them to be the right kind of Person, right. Kind of person like person like me rather than, you know, how do I love this person that's so different than me? And so when we get busy in the why are you not making me happy and you need to be more like me. We really get ourselves in a, in a struggle in marriage and a lot of misery and frustration. And it's understandable. Like, we want what we want, you know, we, we want others to like the things we like and do the things we want to do. But marriage as a chosen container, not a prison. I think a lot of us relate to marriage like a prison. Like we have to be there. And this person is destroying our happiness. Rather than. I've chosen to love this person. I have chosen to bring my full self here, my sexuality, my, my heart here. When this person is their own person, they aren't designed to just reinforce me. That's not the goal of marriage. Right. And so I've chosen. And if you're a religious person, I've promised God that I'm going to love this other person who's maddeningly different than me sometimes. And when we can approach it as, you know, development happens in constraint. If you want to learn to play tennis, you don't do it by just sitting on the couch watching other people play tennis. You have to get out there and do something over and over again that is uncomfortable and hard and you're saying no to other things that are easier. And that's how we develop capacity and exercise anything like that. We're choosing a kind of purposeful discomfort. Marriage, if we relate to it that way, is the exact same thing that I'm going to learn to love this person and accept them, you know, stop trying to change them. First of all, just accept that they come through the world in a different body, a different experience, a different history, different goals. Dreams, you know, that are different from mine. And so how do I start making room for this person? Caring about this person, Loving them as the unique expression of humanity and, or divinity that they are. And that creates friendship, that builds capacity within us. It allows us to start experiencing more of what we felt when we first fell in love, of that sense of psychic wholeness, that sense of magnetism, that sense of creative tension between two polarities, two different people, but that are caring about each other in those differences. That creates the alchemy of attraction and, and connection that we really. That our souls long for in marriage and in life.
- [08:28]
A
Yes, I'm just like bathing in your. Absolutely. And I, I, I think many, you know, my listeners Are going to be able to relate with this, like, attraction and then leading to this maddening, you know, aspect and then wanting to change them. But again, with your focus to bring it back to self and seeing relationships as an opportunity to. To view yourself and to grow and to see yourself in this. I mean, that's what helps me when I. If I'm just like, okay, if they're going to be who they're going to be, then how can I learn about why this triggers me or why I am not able to regulate in this, like, what the heck is going on inside me?
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B
Yeah, exactly.
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A
And you speak about that a lot, about how you know the value of self confronting and taking accountability. I wonder if you could discuss, like, what that means when someone is self confronting or taking responsibility for their role in the relationship or.
- [09:25]
B
Yeah, it's super important. So skill. And really, I think marriages cannot thrive unless you have two people that are basically willing to look at themselves honestly, even if imperfectly. We're all very imperfect at it. We tend to lead with defensiveness and what the others, what our spouse is doing wrong. Few of us start with, you know, hey, yeah, that wasn't fair of me. But if we can't ultimately come to that, who am I in this? How am I a part of the problem? How am I struggling to love? Then we can't really grow the marriage into something wiser. I think in the Christian understanding of what Christ taught on Sermon on the Mount, which is this idea that you have to remove the beam from your own eye rather than be focused on the mote in your partner's eye. And let's be honest, partners usually have beams also. Okay. Like, people are usually more similar than dissimilar in their. In their struggles with love in a marriage. But usually we're just so fixated on what our spouse is getting wrong or what our child is getting wrong or our family members getting wrong, because we can actually see it pretty well. I mean, we're usually right when we see a spouse's limitations. The problem is what we don't see because we're blind to ourselves. And we usually tell ourselves narratives that justify our behavior. We aren't good at recognizing how we are a part of the problem or how we even invite the worst in our spouse to show up. You know, this person that I was, when I was teaching, she was talking about how she was so frustrated that her husband would bring his phone to the table and that he was so walled off, but she was very aggressive in giving that information to him. Which made him feel only more justified in walling off from her and avoiding her. Right. And so when I was like, how do you think you might be part of the problem? Well, she changed. Like, she repeated what she said, but now she made it much nicer. So she was revealing that her mind does that, that she's just inviting her husband to put the phone away, when in reality, she's quite aggressive and judgmental. And that's what our minds do. They trick us into seeing ourselves as I know how to love, my spouse struggles to love. We have a hard time seeing our own struggles with love and kindness and care.
- [11:59]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and then, you know, you take that ability to be able to see what everyone else you know, is doing wrong comes to mind. But. But I know there's a better way of saying that, but, like, where everyone else's limitations are, and then so many of us, you know, I'd say most listeners feel responsible for that. Like, like, we see them and we're like, oh, my gosh, well, I must help. I must. Because we've been trained to meet everyone else's needs.
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B
Like, yes, exactly.
- [12:27]
A
So what do we do with that? That can lead to the overwhelm and the resentment.
- [12:32]
B
Yeah, a hundred percent. So. I think so much of resentment in marriage has to do with the confusion of who's responsible for what. And often in the name of love or being a good parent, we cross over the boundary of what is our job and start trying to take on what is other people's job. And then we get upset when they won't yield to our influence, when they won't, you know, say, thank you so much for pointing out my limitations. I really appreciate that. Our fantasies about what's going to happen sometimes are pretty funny. And, and, and not only that, but we are. We infect their ability to deal with what's real. And we're a hypocrite when we're not dealing with what is ours while pushing others to deal with what's theirs. You know, it doesn't work very well. And so I don't mean that one can't speak honestly in the marriage about what they see on the other side. But you want to deal with your beam first. You want to deal with how you're a part of the problem. Right. You know, just going back to the example of the woman who's aggressive in critiquing her husband and his phone use. Right. She. She would do much better to start with. I know how judgmental and controlling I can be now. What her mind tells her is, well, I'm only doing that because he is always avoiding me. But what his mind is telling him, I'm only avoiding her because she is always critical. And the problem is they're both right and they're both wrong. They're not dealing with their agency in that interaction, with how they keep a pattern on repeat. And so we do much better to start with where our spouse is right about us rather than where they're wrong about us to say, you're right, I can be very mean. I have lots of ways I justify it. And if you want to hear them, I'm happy to share them with you because I use your behavior to justify it. But you are right that I can be pretty contemptuous when you're disappointing me. I mean, that will open up a whole different level of a conversation if it's real, if it's truly about, I know I'm a part of our dynamic. And I think, especially if you are, and I don't mean this as a strategy, like, deal with your part so you can get to the real deal, which is your spouse's part. I don't mean that. But if you really are looking at it honestly, you could say, I think I do go aggressive. And I can see how that would make you want to avoid me. It makes good sense to me. And it's also true when you avoid me, I feel so rejected that then I handle it through critique. Right. And so you're, you're basically, you're showing, look, I think we do this pattern, but you're keeping your eyes on what is your part in it. I can't make you choose me. I can't make you love me. I can't make you invest in the. But I, I, I am going to deal with my aggression. Well, I mean, that's just much better. Yes, it will.
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A
And I'm just, it's so much more vulnerable.
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B
Yes.
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A
Focusing on the cell phone.
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B
Yes, exactly.
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A
And I guess that's where it's, it's vulnerable and it feels very scary. I think some listeners would say, like, it's much easier to say, like, he's wrong about the cell phone versus, like, oh, wow, I get really aggressive. And then when you pull away, I, you know.
- [15:53]
B
Yes, exactly. 100%. And, and humans are just so good at the ego protection. And this is about cell phones. And, you know, I read an article that cell phone use at the table is terrible for the family. You know, we do all these things to, like, put up these rational ideas and to Mask what's actually going on, which is it's so painful to feel rejected by you and then I handle it by rejecting you. And if we could speak more honestly about it's painful to not feel loved. You know, there's just a lot more room for compassion and self awareness because as soon as we go into critique, we are inviting the wall in our spouse, the very wall we say we hate, but usually we're part of them justifying it and having it in the first place. If that's.
- [16:48]
A
Yeah. So I can hear listeners right now just like, oh my God, that's so scary. Like I could never. Like, how, how do you help people get started? Because I think, you know, as you said, you're studying all these and you're seeing all these relationships where like, you're like, I don't want that. And I think a lot of relationships are just skating at that upper level. Like they're just like, oh, it's all about the cell phone or it's about the, you know what? And to go that deeper level seems.
- [17:12]
B
I mean, it is scary. I think it's certainly fair to say that like, if I want to feel invulnerable and that's my goal in life, don't ever admit defeat, don't admit being wrong, don't admit. But I don't think that's usually what most of us has as our actual goal. I want a friendship with you. I want to love you and be loved by you. And so I have maybe what I hold as my ideal and then I have my behavior and I, I, I have to deal with the discrepancy between my ego protective behavior and the life that would be joyful and meaningful. And I don't have to be kind, I don't have to self confront. But if I want a relationship that's built on something that's honest and loving, then I need to go, I need to go first. I mean, a lot of us are like, well, I'll love you if you love me. It just doesn't work. It doesn't work because you have two people that are saying that and they're just holding the other people, other person responsible for the limits of the friendship. If you want a deeper friendship, be a better friend. And that's the way we get stronger as human beings. We stop letting everybody else control the depth and decency of our decisions and we start becoming someone that we respect, being the kind of person we know we need to be to live up to the commitment we made when we got Married.
- [18:39]
A
Well, so, yeah. And this point, you know, everything you're saying is like, we want to be closer, we want a deeper friendship, or we want. With our spouse. I hear this all the time. I want to feel more connected. I want to feel more emotionally connected. But then we go to blame, like, why? What they're doing wrong for us not to feel connected. So what do we do with that?
- [19:00]
B
Yeah, we do it so much and say like, yes, they're doing things that interfere with connection. How am I?
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A
They're not being emotionally intimate.
- [19:09]
B
Yeah, they're not being intimate. They're not revealing themselves. And I think it's important to start with. Well, there's two things that's on them. I'm never gonna control it. And if I'm trying to control it, it's just not a great use of energy. The only thing I can deal with is who I am in this, how vulnerable am I, how open hearted am I? Right? You know, I remember this person that came to me individually and he was complaining about the fact that there was no spontaneity and sexual energy in the marriage, that he would come back from work after a long day and feel no excitement in his wife. And he was right. He was 100% right. She was guarded. She would stay focused on the kids and the meal and whatever was going on. But then I was like, well, what do you do when you come through the door? What are you doing with your wife? And he's like, well, I just go to my office and I'm like, okay, okay. All right. Well, you know, if you actually want. I mean, what he wanted was to be smothered in love and not need to stick his neck out. And I get it. I like that too. Who doesn't like that? I mean, you know, I'd much rather have somebody just gush over me and have no vulnerability. But, I mean, he had to look at himself. How about being excited to see her? How about going in and caring about what she's been working on and doing and getting involved, not resentfully, like for real, like investing in her life. Well, he's like, well, that feels too scary. That feels. And I'm like, that's why she's not doing it with you. I mean, so you go first. Meaning that's the hardest thing for us. We don't want to be the one that sticks our neck out. But something I talk about a lot is that eros love, which is that sense of magnetism and joy and longing that brought couples together in the first place. Right. That is something we really long for in marriage. And low sexual desire and so on is, is less about frequency and more about when people come in looking for help. It's more about the absence of that feeling that they had in the beginning. But to create that and to keep it alive, you have to prioritize vulnerability. To use that language over ego. You have to prioritize caring about the other person, stepping out in front. You know, Eros is to step out in front and take the risk of caring, take the risk of deeper honesty, deeper kindness, deeper exposure. That's always what it requires. And, and it doesn't guarantee that they're going to meet you and be like, okay, yeah, you're right, me too. I feel they may be like, yeah, glad you finally said it. Okay. They could need it with their lesser selves. But even if you are disappointed, you're still stronger for being someone that's not being run around by the limitations of other people. You're still more able now to live according to your conscience. And that always makes you a stronger person, someone more capable of love. And so it doesn't always lead you to joy, to step out in front, but it always leads you somewhere stronger. And if you really want to know what your marriage is capable of, you gotta do that because, you know, you know, I know when I was dating my husband, I kept wanting to be the one desired, but I didn't want to step in with two feet. And I was seeing a therapist at the time, and I remember her saying to me, you're never going to know what this relationship's capable of from the position that you're in because you keep favoring safety. And his reinforcement, the reinforcement of his desire over really stepping in and seeing what it can be. And, you know, I was so afraid of it. I was afraid, afraid of disappointment. I was afraid that once I did step in, he would think, you know, she's not that great. She looked better when I was in pursuit of her. And, and also like basically choosing the container, not any longer being able to just, you know, entertain other possibilities in the same way. But it was only when I stepped in with two feet that the merit that we weren't married yet, but the relationship started to really thrive, blossom, become something much stronger. And I was never going to find that without bringing my full self to it.
- [23:32]
A
I, I really want to highlight that for listeners. That is something. It's so scary. I think that's where the fear comes from. But, but the alternative is this, you know, sort of, I think Dr. Lynette Willis coined the term, like stable misery of marriage, where you're just sort of skating because you're too reluctant to do that next thing. And for me, some past, you know, patterns and, and travel might say, like, it felt very scary to do that in relationship. And yet I did get to a point where I was like, well, what's the alternative? This, this is not great. So it's either like, you know, sort of long term discomfort.
- [24:12]
B
Yeah.
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A
Or a real like blip of like short term discomfort. But then on the other side, you have some information and as you're saying, and I really like your language around this and like, be the type of person you want to be and to step into more maturity in that area to be.
- [24:26]
B
Yeah. And you know, something that one of my mentors, Dr. Schnarsh, would say is we don't get to choose whether or not we're anxious in life. We only get to choose if our anxiety is productive or not. Like, another way of saying that is like, we don't even get to. We don't get to choose if we have physical pain in life. Actually, as we age, we only get to choose if it's productive or not. So going to the gym is to take it up front. You're building muscle, you're building capacity, flexibility. That helps you enjoy your life more. If you don't, it's understandable because going to the gym kind of sucks sometimes. It's like, you know, it feels better to sit on the couch, watch a show, but then you ache more and you can't do as much and you feel more physical pain. So it's kind of like, which pain do I want? One that actually builds capacity or one that's a function of not building capacity? Me.
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A
There's going to be pain either way. And it's just one sort of gets you this other. You know, I remember when I. Because I started pressing my first marriage and learned a lot of things and that marriage ended. And when I started dating again many years after that, I made a post for Instagram that was something instead of like, you know, they talk about half ass living. I was like, full ass living. Like, I was like, die both. You know, it's like, just do the whole thing. And I put cheeks in. Yeah, exactly, put both cheeks in. And I remember I kept saying to myself in my head, I was like, stay open, Susie, stay open. Like just to whatever it was instead of going back into those old patterns. And I, like, I hadn't heard that with anxiety from Dr. Schnar no, that's exactly it. Like, stay open. What are we going to do with it? Like, stay open and take that step. Because both, you know, there's pain and discomfort either way. So choose the productive discomfort to that. To that end. A lot of women then, so maybe they're feeling this discontent in their marriage and they're feeling un, you know, unhappy with how things are going. And yet bringing it up to their spouse is something that they might be wanting to work on or like, hey, I got this great new book that Dr. Jennifer Pfeiffer. I listened to this podcast on the Love youe Life show, you know, whatever that feels very vulnerable to them, like them having needs or desires or wanting something else. This whole idea of, you know, thinking that we're selfish for wanting something other than we have. Can you speak a little bit about that? I heard you in a recent interview saying something about, like, it's often easier to go along with what is wanted from you than to do what you're feeling or thinking is most. Right.
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B
Yeah. Do what's needed. Yeah. So first of all, I think a lot of us, you know, have, growing up in religious cultures, for example, have really learned the idea of you're either selfish or you're selfless, and the ideal female or the ideal person is selfless. And I don't think that it's actually exists in those binaries because if you really want your relationships to thrive, you can't neglect them. You can't betray yourself in that relationship. Right. It won't work. You know, my son was starting to date someone recently, and I. And he was, you know, I was just saying you can't. You can't. You need. You must be true to yourself. And if it works, it works. But don't try to shape yourself to fit into something, because it will never work if you do that. You have to be true to the best in you. Well, and I just.
- [28:03]
A
Sorry to interrupt you. But just like that, like, it works until it doesn't work, because I would say I was really good at that. I became this. And for like 20 years. And then it just builds up until it.
- [28:15]
B
That's right. So it starts building resentment and you start feeling like I'm disappearing in my own life. And you also have this feeling like, am I really loved or am I just loved for all the ways I contort myself for your benefit? And. And it also creates weakness in the other person, honestly, because if you're just contorting into what makes them comfortable, they aren't actually learning what it means to love. And they are just. It breeds and facilitates their entitlement. Now, that doesn't mean go the other way and be like, it's my turn and whatever I want I should get. Because a lot of times we go to the other extreme and both are immature. But more, what does it mean to be true to me and true to you? What does it mean to speak up honestly? Not because I'm right and it has to go my way, but I need to bring who I honestly am, what I honestly feel into the conversation to sort out what's fair, what's true, what's good that, you know, a lot of times we're already editing because we're afraid of the invalidation. We're afraid of, you know, do I deserve to have good things? I want him or her to think I deserve good things, but what if they don't? And so a lot of times, in the name of virtue, we are actually coddling our fears and keeping our honest selves out of the conversation. And it doesn't mean you have to be certain that everything you want is good before you speak up. Because a lot of times in speaking honestly, you realize maybe that's not a fair thing to want or to ask for. You know, maybe it's asking too much of my family or of my spouse. But you might refine that view out of an honest discerning rather than, you know, oh, never mind. There's nothing here. I don't want you to be upset. It's not fear driven. It's more honesty and love driven. So, you know, so often by getting out of honest conversation, honest conversation brings conflict. It forces us to really challenge the question of is this fair? Is this too much? Am I asking for too little? Those are important questions to sort out in marriage, but because they require our forbearance, they require our persistence, they require our tolerance of anxiety and conflict. And I don't mean contempt and hostility. I mean just conflict that a lot of us shrink back from it. Trying to keep a superficial peace that doesn't actually create true peace. True peace comes when you have two honest people working together to create something that's truly workable takes a lot more courage than most of us in exercise and engage. Yeah.
- [31:07]
A
And a lot more maturity to step into that honesty that I'm hearing and even just paying it. So getting past the selfish part to say, like, it's not. It's not your either. Or like, you're, you know, but that, yes, you. You're actually here on Earth and You have needs and desires, and that's, that's, that's okay. And then I know, you know, many of my listeners are in their midlife and they're like, but I don't even know what I know because we have just put that on someone else's shoulders, almost like a responsibility, like they're gonna tell me. And then when we start figuring it out, it feels uncomfortable. So could you totally speak a little of. You have the, you know.
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B
Yeah. So I work with a lot of women, sometimes men too, who are like, I re. I don't even know what I want. I'm so used to shelving and thinking and, And I think women are not only socialized this way a lot, we're also wired this way, I think keeps babies alive to quickly track what other people want from us. So oftentimes, women are kind of being bombarded with, that person wants this and this person feels that way. And so they're getting a lot of that data. That's a very valuable skill, and it can work against holding our own, being true to ourselves because we're, you know, some, some men. I'm maybe being a little too stereotyped here, but I think because men don't track that as readily as a group as women do as a group. Men often look very self determined and confident because they're not even getting the data. It's not even registering. Right. So that's women's strength, and it's also their liability, generally speaking. And so, you know, and then if we've been socialized while good women, good people, put their needs second, well, then we often don't even let ourselves know what we want or know who we are or know what we desire because we feel like that it's wrong to do it. So if you don't know, that's okay. That doesn't mean that you're broken or there's anything fundamentally wrong. But a good place to start is to look at your resentments. Because our resentments are often indicators of places that we are giving more than we can back up or that we have a covert contract in our giving. Well, I'm giving you that, but I was hoping that me giving you that was gonna get you to give me this thing and you're not giving me that other thing. And so when we give, but we are hoping we will be given to, or that this will lead to you loving me more or appreciating me more, that then that exposure, you know, is like, okay, there's something there. I need to Deal with in myself. What is the thing that I want? What is the thing that I'm not getting? How am I. How have I been participating in being taken advantage of if that's the case? Sometimes our resentments are that we choose things that we actually feel good about, but then we want to engage in a martyr energy to kind of say, poor me while we still know that it's what we believe is most right. And so we can do anything. Resentment, just in an indulgence.
- [34:15]
A
What do you mean by that? Like the.
- [34:16]
B
Well, a little bit. Like where people are like, you know, I actually feel better about staying home with my kids, for example, not working. But then it's like. Or I want to have children, but then I'm gonna act like a victim of these kids and their needs.
- [34:29]
A
Yeah.
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B
Rather than. No, I chose to have children. I have a responsibility to them. Yes, kids have needs. Okay. Nothing shocking here. And so I'm not gonna ask them to make me okay for the decision I made.
- [34:43]
A
Yes, thank you so much for clarifying that because I. I find that, like, I have been in that place where, like, I've made a decision and then it's possibly harder than I thought it was going to feel for me, you know, that I'm like, oh, yeah, I'll be a stay at home mom. And then I'm like, oh, wow. Like this is. And it's much easier in my immaturity to blame someone else. My husband or, you know, not necessarily the kids in that way, but I guess more the kids. If. If again, as they got older and I was doing things, I'm agreeing to do carpools, or I'm agreeing to make dinner, or I'm. And then they are not like, wow, mom, this is the best dry chicken I've ever had. You know, then I am. The resentment is going to come up so that.
- [35:25]
B
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Or not ask them to help, but then resent that no one's helping.
- [35:30]
A
You know, that kind of.
- [35:31]
B
Yeah. Like washing the dishes.
- [35:32]
A
And you're like, I'm always over here alone. And you're like, you've never opened your mouth. Because every time they're like, do you want help? You're like, no, fine.
- [35:39]
B
Yeah, exactly, exactly. And so then it's like, okay, well, I need to grow up and either truly let it go and say, I'm gonna let it be their choice if they help and I'm not gonna worry about it, or, no, I really do want help. And so then to just ask, not from a victim place, but just to click. Hey, do you mind clearing the table? Could you sweep the floor? Could you. Whatever it is. And you're just standing up for what is good, what is right, what is fair for the family. But, you know, resentment's easy. It's. It's easier. And I mean, it feels terrible to be in that resentful, powerless position, but it's also a way to get out of the exposure and the responsibility of claiming our life. And so a lot of us choose resentment over honesty and responsibility.
- [36:23]
A
Yes, I. I would never say that I chose resentment over, you know, honesty and.
- [36:29]
B
And a. More.
- [36:30]
A
But I definitely, in listening to you and hearing you say, like, it's easier for me to see than res. Than to open my mouth and say, you know, be truthful and honest and that I'm feeling overwhelmed here or that I'm upset that I made this choice. Or it's that deeper level of maturity.
- [36:48]
B
That's right. That's right.
- [36:50]
A
I think I've heard you speak about costly accommodation.
- [36:53]
B
Yes.
- [36:54]
A
I think that's. How would you define that? Or.
- [36:56]
B
Yeah, just that it's very much that energy of, I will do what makes the conflict go away, or I will do the thing that I feel pressured by you to do. But then it's costly. And it may be I'm feeling resentment towards you or I'm feeling taken advantage of, but I'm also being complicit because I don't dare to speak up. I don't dare to say the thing that I want. And in speaking up, something better can happen. And I'll tell the story, although it embarrasses me a tiny bit, this story. But I remember back when we had. I wasn't working, I was home with the kids, and our budget was really tight because of it. And so we had a spare bedroom, and there was a student who needed a place to stay for the summer. And so we set up an agreement about how much rent would be. And, you know, that it included dinner, but he would cover his other meals, and then he had his own toiletries and stuff. And the part that's embarrassing to me is, like, it from a financial perspective, it was no big deal. Like, I felt like money was really tight for us, but he was using our shampoo. He was taking food from dinner to eat for lunch the next day at his internship and so on. And it just. It bothered me because I felt taken advantage of, but I didn't. I also felt embarrassed to be the person that would come and say, hey, that's like two and a Half dollars you took. I just felt like, so. And I would talk to my husband about it, and he's like, just let it go. It doesn't matter. It doesn't. Like, let it be. And from his ethos, it didn't matter. He really didn't care.
- [38:35]
A
Right.
- [38:36]
B
He also grew up with more abundance than I did. I grew up in much more, like, of a. Of a feeling of not having enough. And so I kept trying to get myself to back out of it, but I just couldn't. I just was like, it makes me dislike this person because I feel like he's breaking the agreement. And so it was where I had to go one way or the other. I had to let it be and truly just say, I'm either too chicken or I can't back up my position well enough to. And let it go, or you have to speak about it. And so I pushed me to speak about it, and I said, hey, listen, like, this is how I understood the agreement. This is what I see you doing, and I'd really just prefer that you honor the agreement. Okay, now, I was a little embarrassed, but I was like, I know I still need to say it. And he. He met that with, well, fine, I'm going to go live somewhere else. Because. Because I think he had the idea, based on where he came from and where he. That this was high rent because we were in a big city and stuff. And. And so I think he partly was justifying that because he felt like he was already paying too much. So he went, and when he said that, I said, that's fine, you know, if that's better for you, that's okay with me. And I really did mean that.
- [39:47]
A
Yeah.
- [39:48]
B
He went and he looked and he came back and said, hey, I've looked at other prices. I know what a good deal this is. I apologize, and I'll live by the agreement. And we became really good friends. Like, that is to say, by having that uncomfortable conversation, bringing more honesty to it, we each could take deeper responsibility and then really, like, really like each other again, you know?
- [40:13]
A
Yeah.
- [40:13]
B
Yeah.
- [40:14]
A
But it's so hard. Like, I. Like, my nervous system is reacting even as you're saying that. I'm like, oh, my gosh. Like, I would need. I would be the same thing that I'm like, I said I'd do dinner. Why is he taking it to lunch? Like, and it would just be seething in me. And then to have a husband where it didn't bother my husband, and I would be talking myself out of that, and I Feel that that is a great story to illustrate what happens in so many ways because we've really been taught to not have needs or pay attention to our needs, which a little plug for your program, the Art of Desire, helped me a lot with this. That like we can desire, but that, that really brought to mind how I've been taught not. But that it's almost.
- [40:51]
B
Yeah.
- [40:52]
A
To have needs. And then when you have the guts to speak up for those needs, even if the person who you value in your life is like, that's not a need I have. It's like, well, that's a need I have.
- [41:03]
B
Yes.
- [41:03]
A
Then to be met with like, okay.
- [41:05]
B
Well then I'm leaving.
- [41:05]
A
It's like, oh, go Joe, the extra chicken.
- [41:10]
B
But you know, but it also, it pushes this issue of self validation, something that I talk about. Like, I just know that right or wrong, I need to bring this up honestly. And I wasn't aggressive about it. I wasn't accusing. I was just saying I need to know that you're acknowledging our agreement and that you stick with it. That would help me. And he has every right that I'm taking responsibility for my half of the problem by speaking honestly. He has every right to sort out his half. Either I'm leaving. He could have or, you know, but. But at least it brought us into. Instead of coddling our respective stories. This is justified. This is not justified. Bringing them together and tolerating the discomfort of that helped us both get in a clear position that was truly sustainable and we really enjoyed. I really enjoyed having him in our home for a few months. Like, we really did.
- [42:14]
A
Well, because it's that discomfort either which you were speaking to, like you either have this, this big blip of discomfort when you ask him or you could have had him still staying there, where every night, every time he uses your shampoo, you're just like, I smell my rose shampoo. Yeah. And I've just done that in so many areas of life. And that feeling entitled and then yet to push to that. That is a new level of maturity to allow yourself to want what you want. I think, yeah, that's something. At least when I was growing up, it was like to be the low maintenance girl, like to.
- [42:51]
B
Yeah.
- [42:52]
A
And I just have come to realize I'm like, I'm high. Like, I have needs. I have. I'm. Yeah, it's not low or high.
- [42:59]
B
I'm normal maintenance.
- [43:01]
A
I'm a human with Right. I'm putting everyone else's needs as higher value than mine. But where is the conversation for my own needs to that point, you know, I'm getting close to wrapping up. But you just spoke of this ability to have, you know, someone. They have differing views, and then you're able to feel somewhat peaceful in your system with these differing views. And your work on differentiation comes up, you just give.
- [43:29]
B
Yeah. So I think, you know, especially, you know, in any functional system, whether that's society, a family, a marriage, there are going to be differences. And the ego does not like difference. The ego likes reinforcement, control. You know, we. We want what we want. I want the world to yield to me. That's what the ego wants. But the world pressures us. Relationships pressure us in the best sense because we're working with people who operate differently, who think differently, who have different desires. And yet being in honest connection with people that are different than us helps us mature, helps us become wiser, kinder, more capable of loving somebody that's different than usual. But to get there, we have to tolerate the invalidation and the pressure points of being in honest relationship with one another, you know, because it's possible, going back to that story, that if I had said it, let's say he came back and said, wait, but didn't you also say, like, let's say there's something that I had misunderstood or not remembered, or like, maybe I could have actually changed my feelings about it because I remembered or better understood my part in the problem. So it could have come back to me actually growing into a more solid position through the conversation without him changing anything, if that had been, you know, true to what we had set up originally. And so those honest conversations are uncomfortable, but they help us clean up our inner compass. They help us get on more solid ground and get more able to collaborate and cooperate with one another, which is the fundamental reality of peaceful relationships. It's not that everybody's the same. It's that you can make room for another person that wants different things, that approaches the world differently, that is pursuing other goals. But you can be yourself and be with them. That's the thing. It can be true to me and true to you. And especially this is true in marriage, because you don't want to kill the polarity that's a part of. Of romantic love. That's what drives desire and longing and attraction. So you don't want to kill that. You don't want to get your partner in your back pocket. That's a. That's to kill all the arrows. But you want it to be clean differences, not entrenched power struggles. You want it to Be like, I accept you. You will always approach the world differently than me. You will always say, money doesn't matter. I will always think it does. Exactly.
- [46:01]
A
Right.
- [46:02]
B
Yeah. You know. Right. And that's okay because there's truth in both positions. And so how do we use our respective orientation to life to create a good relationship, to be wiser within ourselves? By borrowing the other person's perspective, but not betraying the essence of who we are, nor asking the other to do it either. And that's really when marriages thrive, is that they're actually able to handle those differences with wisdom and compassion rather than contempt and demand.
- [46:34]
A
Yeah. And again, speaking to the maturity, because I think that that's, you know, when we're younger, we only see things as black or white, part of the pressing of, you know, our development. And then as we get older, just that sort of like, how could I see it from his way? Or how might I.
- [46:48]
B
Yes.
- [46:48]
A
Let this in and be a friend to him in that he believes this. Oh, thank you so much. You have given us so much information and you have so much online. You know, I was able to get your book in Australia, so wherever people are listening to this, they can get it. Where would you like to direct people so I can put it on?
- [47:07]
B
Well, if they go to the website, which is my last name, Finn Layson, hyphenfife.com, there you can access my free podcast, which is conversations like this with various podcasters, or my. My subscription podcast, which is called Room for Two, which is very much this, which I'm working with couples around. Intimacy issues, sexual intimacy, emotional intimacy, and how to work out a marriage that makes Room for two people. And so their names are changed and I distort their voices and so on. But these are real conversations.
- [47:40]
A
It's a great podcast. Like, they're. I just want listeners to hear like there are actual couples on there talking, and they. Yeah, I love it.
- [47:47]
B
Right through very normal marital challenges, you know, and so it'll make you feel more normal and help you know what to do. And then I have several online courses to help you develop your capacity for emotional and sexual intimacy and to be more at peace with yourself. Oh, and then the book that we might have.
- [48:04]
A
Yeah, awesome. I will put that link to her website right below listeners or wherever you're listening to this. Just scroll down to the hyperlinked. And thank you so much, Jennifer, for coming on and making time for the Love youe Life pleasure. We just. I know listeners will get so much out of this. Thank you very much.
- [48:19]
B
Thanks for having me.