If You Give a Mouse a Pronoun

Summary

Lovett or Leave It – Episode: "If You Give a Mouse a Pronoun"

Release Date: March 8, 2025
Host: Jon Lovett
Guests: Natalie Morales (Actress), Emily St. James (Writer/Author)

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Political Commentary

Donald Trump's Address to Congress

The episode opens with Jon Lovett delving into the aftermath of former President Donald Trump's joint address to Congress. Lovett critiques the speech as a blend of insanity and monotony, likening it to a MAGA rally rather than a presidential address. He humorously remarks, “It's Trump's special talent that he can make a speech both completely insane and deeply boring” (04:38).

Disruption and Protest

During Trump's speech, Democratic Texas Congressman Al Green disrupts proceedings, leading House Speaker Mike Johnson to remove him. Emily St. James comments on the disruption, describing it as “willful and concerted disruption of proper decorum” (04:49). Lovett mocks the effectiveness of such protests, suggesting that louder disruptions might have more impact.

Pink as a Symbol of Protest

Lovett discusses the Democratic congresswomen who wore pink to protest, quoting Congresswoman Teresa Leger Fernandez: “Pink is a color of power and protest, it's time to rev up the opposition and come at Trump loud and clear” (04:18). He humorously critiques the symbolism, noting that “wearing a color is not a protest. It's a statement, but it's not a protest.”

Trump’s Policy Remarks and Mockery

Trump’s speech touched on various contentious issues:

• Medicaid Cuts: Trump declared, “I was making it clear to the President that he has no mandate to cut Medicaid” (05:08), which Lovett sarcastically responds by questioning the effectiveness of such statements.
• Trans Rights and Culture Wars: Trump asserted, “Our country will be woke no longer” (06:14), a statement Lovett mocks by highlighting the absurdity of the stock market’s reaction to such rhetoric.

Lovett continues to satirize Trump’s policies, including the creation of a crypto Strategic Reserve and the imposition of tariffs on Canada and Mexico. He quotes Trump’s optimistic yet baseless assurances about these initiatives, such as, “Our farmers are going to have a field day right now. So to our farmers, have a lot of fun. I love you, too” (10:21), and mocks the practicality of these claims.

International and Domestic Implications

The discussion extends to the international fallout from Trump’s policies, including strained relations with Canada and Mexico. Lovett humorously criticizes Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s response to Trump’s tariffs, highlighting the friction in trade relations.

Social Security and VA Cuts

Lovett addresses Trump’s proposed cuts to the Social Security Administration and the Department of Veterans Affairs, emphasizing the detrimental impact on millions of Americans. He reinforces the severity of these cuts with sarcastic remarks about the financial mismanagement underpinning these policies.

Guest Interactions

Natalie Morales: Actress Segment

Jon Lovett welcomes actress Natalie Morales to the stage, reminiscing about her previous appearances and the evolution of the show's atmosphere over the past eight years. They engage in a lighthearted segment where Morales participates in a game of "Was I In This," testing her knowledge of her own film and television credits.

Notable Moments:

• Role Confusion: Morales humorously navigates questions about roles she did not play, such as in "Zoolander 2" and "Sharknado 4," clarifying the mix-up with another Natalie Morales (35:27).
• Role Highlights: She proudly discusses her roles in “My Dead Friend Zoe” and “Santa Clarita Diet,” emphasizing the depth and diversity of her characters.

Emily St. James: Author Discussion

Emily St. James joins the conversation to discuss her novel, "Woodworking," which explores trans identities and the personal struggles associated with them. Lovett and St. James delve into the themes of the book, discussing the challenges trans individuals face in passing and the societal pressures to conform.

Key Insights:

• Trans Representation: St. James emphasizes the importance of authentic and joyful representation of trans people, countering the prevalent negative stereotypes (46:35).
• Character Development: They explore the protagonist Abigail’s journey in transitioning and the obstacles she faces in a small-town setting.

Addressing Trans Issues:

• Cultural Backlash: St. James critiques the society's regression in accepting trans identities, highlighting the absurdity of policies and rhetoric that seek to undermine trans rights.
• Personal Connections: Lovett shares his personal connection to trans issues, discussing his relationship with a trans person and the political challenges they face together.

Discussion on "Woodworking":

• Book Themes: The conversation touches on how the book portrays the internal and external conflicts of trans individuals striving for acceptance and self-identity.
• Social Commentary: St. James hopes the book fosters greater understanding and empathy, encouraging readers to embrace authenticity despite societal pressures.

Humor Segments

Cannibalism Rapid-Fire Game

Lovett introduces a humorous segment titled "To All the Boys I Ate Before," where he and the guests engage in a rapid-fire discussion about cannibalism in hypothetical plane crash scenarios.

Highlights:

• Ethical Dilemmas: They humorously debate the morality of consuming human flesh for survival, with Lovett asking, “Would it be more immoral to make your flesh more palatable?” (63:19).
• Fashion and Cannibalism: The conversation amusingly intertwines high school fashion trends with the grim topic, debating which trends they’d rather see revived over cannibalistic practices.

Character Reflection:

• Human Biology and Ethics: They touch on the practical and ethical aspects of cannibalism, referencing historical incidents like the Donner Party and the physiological consequences of consuming human flesh.

Concluding Insights

Impact of Trans Representation in Media

The episode concludes with a reflection on the significance of trans representation in media and literature. Lovett and St. James discuss the potential of works like "Woodworking" to influence public perception and foster a more inclusive society. They emphasize the need for authentic storytelling that highlights the joys and struggles of trans individuals without succumbing to stereotypes or sensationalism.

Final Remarks:

• Lovett urges listeners to engage with the book and the movie “My Dead Friend Zoe,” highlighting their importance in contemporary cultural discourse.
• St. James reiterates the book’s goal to normalize trans experiences and encourage societal acceptance.

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Notable Quotes:

• Jon Lovett: “It should be impossible, like being Jewish and digesting dairy.” 00:37
• Emily St. James: “Transness exposes fundamental ideas about gender and challenges the interplay of culture and biology.” 54:35
• Jon Lovett: “You can't run from who you are.” 47:21
• Donald Trump: “Our country will be woke no longer.” 06:14

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This episode masterfully blends political satire with meaningful discussions on representation and societal challenges. Through sharp wit and insightful conversation, Jon Lovett and his guests navigate the complexities of contemporary politics and identity, offering listeners both laughs and thoughtful commentary.

Transcript

[Jon Lovett]

Love it or Leave it is brought to you by Bombas. I got a lot of copy here, Jon. I'm skipping it, okay? I'm skipping it. Let me tell you why. What's on these feet right now? Bombas. I know that I. Every goddamn, every goddamn day, but I switch completely to bombas, all right? I switch completely. I. Look, I always had a couple Bombas in the drawer, but when Trump became president, I said, you know what? Something's got to give, and I want my feet to be just a little bit more comfortable. So I went on the Internet, I went on Elon's Internet, and I bought a ton of bombas. I bought a whole bunch that are all the same so that I don't have any decisions in the morning. They're different, different color stripes. These are the. These are the gray stripes. Yeah, I know.

[Natalie Morales]

I've seen that.

[Jon Lovett]

I can see. I got every stripe so that I have. I have a different color stripe to match whatever clothes I'm wearing. So my stripes from my Bombas are always coordinated with my outfit every day. Sometimes that's just for me because they're in my pants and you don't know that, but sometimes it's for my gym shorts because they're great. When I go to the gym, they're. They're great. When I go to the office, they've got dress socks. I'm a complete Bombas boy. I'm a Bombas boy. Enjoy. Worldwide shipping to over 200 countries. Head over to bombas.com loveit and use code love it for 20% off your first purchase. Let me see if I should have covered anything else here. They got dress socks. I got those. They're fantastic. Any other choice? Cushioned arch hugging pairs. That's what I've got on right now. You know, it goes great with new spring socks, fresh white T shirts, waterproof slides. I also have the slides. I also. Those slides I've been wearing. Bombus. Wow. Head on over to bombas.com love it and use code love it for 20% off your first purchase. That's B O M B-A-S.com love it. Code love it for 20% off your 1st purchase. Bombas.com love it. Use the code Love it. Because if it's your first purchase getting 20% off, just get all the socks you could ever need till the day you die. That's what I recommend. Bombus.com Love it. Love it or leave it. It's Love it or leave it. What's up, Los Angeles? Welcome to Love it or leave it. Live from Dynasty typewriter. Good news, Adrien Brody. With Trump's joint address to Congress behind us, your Oscars acceptance is now the second worst speech of the week. Putting the brutal and brutalist. That guy. I've been here before. Don't play the music. I have a point to make. Says nothing forever. That was unbelievable. That was unbelievable. Like the gall the actor hubris to be winning an Oscar in front of one of the biggest television audiences in the world. The music starts playing and you say, how dare you. I haven't yet said that love is important. We've got a great show for you tonight. Natalie Morales is here to comb through her catalog. Writer and author of the new novel woodworking, Emily St. James is here to talk about my greatest fear, teenage girls. Then we all debate the worst of two evils, cannibalism and high school. But first, let's get into it. What a week. On Tuesday, Donald Trump delivered a speech to Congress filled with lies and grievances in what sounded more like a MAGA rally speech than a presidential address. It's Trump's special talent that he can make a speech both completely insane and deeply boring. It's one of those combinations that should be impossible, like being Jewish and digesting dairy. As promised, some Democratic congresswomen wore pink in protest. Powerful stuff. I see they borrowed a page from Sun Tzu's classic text, the art of putting on fun little outfits. Congresswoman Teresa Leger Fernandez, head of the Democratic Women's Caucus, told Time magazine that pink is a color of power and protest. It's time to rev up the opposition and come at Trump loud and clear. But wearing a color is not a protest. It's a statement, but it's not a protest. You're allowed to wear pink. You're coordinating your outfits. But the outfits aren't loud and clear. They're maybe loud, but they're not necessarily clear. It's like watching Meghan Markle make popcorn. I know you think this is something, but until you explain it, it's nothing. Trump began his address with a declaration.

[Donald Trump]

And to my fellow citizens, America is back.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, we're back. Measles is back. People needing their own chickens is back. Flying being an adventure is back. The speech was briefly interrupted when Democratic Texas Congressman Al Green caused a disruption and House Speaker Mike Johnson had him kicked out. Mr. Green, take your seat. Take your seat, sir. Take your seat. Finding that members continue to engage in.

[Emily St. James]

Willful and concerted disruption of proper decorum.

[Jon Lovett]

The chair now directs the sergeant at arms to Restore order. It was a bit excessive when Lauren Boebert rolled out the congressional guillotine, but rules are rules. Green shouts weren't exactly audible to TV viewers, but he explained his protests to reporters. After getting the boot, the President said.

[Natalie Morales]

He had a mandate.

[Jon Lovett]

And I was making it clear to the President that he has no mandate to cut Medicaid. Go off, King. Just go off a little louder next time, maybe. I don't know if that's as effective as wearing a color. I mean, with fascism on the rise, we're going to have to wear pretty bright color. The President then bragged about being reelected in spite of his criminal prosecutions.

[Donald Trump]

And we have ended weaponized government, where, as an example, a sitting president is allowed to viciously prosecute his political opponent like me.

[Jon Lovett]

How did that work out?

[Donald Trump]

Not too good. Not too good.

[Jon Lovett]

Honestly Got our asses. I mean, that's pretty cool. How did that work out? Fucking terribly. We got absolutely bodied. You're right. Got us Fully fucking got us. Damn it. The President's speech leaned heavily into culture war issues. Going after trans people pretty hard, as summed up in this applause line.

[Donald Trump]

Our country will be woke no longer.

[Jon Lovett]

Stock market's tanking. There's going to be a black market for maple syrup. You need a small business loan to make a Denver omelette. Biggest job losses since the onset of the pandemic. But on the bright side, five trans athletes are going to have to stick to intramurals. When Trump did eventually touch briefly on inflation, it wasn't to offer his plan to bring down soaring prices, but to blame Joe Biden.

[Donald Trump]

Joe Biden especially let the price of eggs get out of control. The egg price is out of control.

[Jon Lovett]

You know what, Trump? Okay, fine, you can still blame Joe Biden. You can't be expected to have solved every problem. You still get to seem young and engaged by virtue of comparison. But, TikTok, bitch, you promised pizza day every Friday, and it's already been six Fridays. No pizza. Pretty soon, America's gonna forget who Joe Biden was, because Joe Biden already forgot who Joe Biden was. Aw, he destroyed the country. Looking back, I regret not realizing how much he was fucking us sooner. That's my great regret of 2024. Obviously, we gotten a little bit of a hot stew for pointing it out, but even still, sort of speaking to the obvious, long after it become obvious, all these people that are going to run For President in 2028, not one of them had the stones to challenge Joe Biden. And it's like, well, isn't the person that's right to be president the kind of person who understood the need to step up and fight really hard, or you got to wait your turn? Does Donald Trump wait for his turn? Is this the kind of politics, a moment in history where people seem to wait for their turn? No, just our sign. Just our sweet, sweet Democrats always looking for a line to stand in while Republicans run over the barricades. The Democratic Party as a group of people are in zone four looking as Republican in zone six. Just walk right in front of them, right onto the plane, over and over again. We're just a party of people in Zone 4 watching people in Zone 6 put their bags in the overhead while we wonder if there will be room when we get on the plane. Republicans are like, we got bags. These people are idiots. We're getting on the fucking plane. Our bags are going in the overhead, and we're like, I wish somebody would do something about this. Just get on the plane. Yeah, all right. Trump got big laughs when listing purported examples of fraud that Doge had uncovered.

[Donald Trump]

$8 million to promote LGBTQI plus in the African nation of Lesotho, which nobody has ever heard of. $8 million for making mice transgender.

[Jon Lovett]

What, you think it's cheap to make a mouse trans? You think tiny little androgynous mouse clothes grow on trees? Do you know how hard it is to dye a little mouse's hair blue to make the AirPods small enough to play Mitsky? Also, the President is actually supposed to have heard of all the countries. Like, we the people don't necessarily have to have heard of Lesotho, but the President is supposed to at least pretend to have heard of all the countries. Trump also defended his tariffs on Mexico and Canada with an uplifting message to Americans.

[Donald Trump]

There'll be a little disturbance, but we're okay with that. It won't be much. No, you're not.

[Jon Lovett]

Oh, a little disturbance is when your mom asks a question at the movies, not when we've got troops at the border between Detroit and Windsor. The president also warned farmers worried about the tariffs that they may face a of an adjustment period. Iowa pollster Ann Seltzer wasn't wrong. Iowa pollster Ann Seltzer was simply ahead of her time. Trump made the dubious promise that the tariffs will ultimately help American farmers, saying.

[Donald Trump]

This, our farmers are going to have a field day right now. So to our farmers, have a lot of fun. I love you, too.

[Jon Lovett]

Every day is a field day for farmers, you fucking idiot. In international news, unfortunately, the Zelensky, Trump, Vance bitch. Sesh unfolded after we recorded last week, but the fallout continues. J.D. vance went on state TV to continue to trash talk Zelensky and insult some other allies while he was at it. If you want real security guarantees, if you want to actually ensure that Vladimir Putin does not invade Ukraine again, the very best security guarantee is to give Americans economic upside in the future of Ukraine. That is a way better security guarantee than 20,000 troops from some random country that hasn't fought a war in 30 or 40 years. So eat shit. Families of British and French service members who died in Afghanistan serving alongside Americans answering the call to defend an ally. British and French newspapers attacked the Vice President for his comments, calling him a clown, a disgrace, and J.D. dunce. Wait, am I British in French newspapers? Either way, I for one am proud to fight alongside Britain and France in the war against jizz Diaper Vance. Got em. On Monday, Trump ordered a pause on US military aid to Ukraine. And on Wednesday, CIA Director John Radcliffe announced the end of intelligence sharing with Ukraine in an attempt to force Zelenskyy's hand. Of course, under Tulsi Gabbard that intelligence is just bulletins like Putin still handsome. So not sure how big a difference this is gonna make. In domestic news, this past week, Trump announced the creation of the crypto Strategic Reserve in which the US would hold billions of various cryptocurrencies. God only knows why. And I'm not even talking about normal God. I'm talking about the new God Elon Musk believes in.

[Natalie Morales]

By the time these lawsuits are decided.

[Jon Lovett]

We'Ll have digital God.

[Natalie Morales]

So.

[Jon Lovett]

I can't wait. Analog God made me 5 foot 6 and like 20% more ambitious than my talents allow, which is just enough of a delta to make life basically torture. The President announced on social media that the reserve would contain lesser known crypto like xrp, Solana and Cardano, as well as more commonly used currencies like Bitcoin and Ether. Now you might ask yourself, why on earth would we need a strategic reserve of a volatile, speculative digital currency other than to reward the crypto allies who spent millions getting him elected? In other news, Trump announced, by the way, before we came out, they actually did some kind of an announcement basically saying that the crypto reserve is. It's bullshit. It's just bullshit. It's gonna be. It's made up of the currency they've already seized. And it just seems like a way to save face for some of these crypto bros that are constantly sucking Donald Trump's dick digitally. In other news, Trump announced a 25% tariff on goods from Canada and Mexico, which sent markets reeling just before his joint address to Congress. We were always telling President Obama to wreck the stock market the day before his big speeches, but he never listened. Guess that's why he's not president anymore. Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and Mexican President Claudia Sheinbaum, Jewish. Threatened. I think it's cool. Threatened swift countermeasures in the escalating trade war. With Trudeau saying on Tuesday this is a time to hit back hard and to demonstrate that a fight with Canada will have no winners. What did Canadian think to say? Not that Trump will lose a fight with Canada, not that Canada will triumph, but just that a fight with Canada will have no winners. Trudeau addressed Trump at the news conference, saying, now, it's not in my habit to agree with the Wall Street Journal, but Donald, they point out that even though you're a very smart guy, this is a very dumb thing to do. Flattering Trump's ego, good strategy. Probably a tactic he learned from his father, Fidel Castro. Just a conspiracy theory. Just another conspiracy the mainstream media has claimed is debunked. I'm not saying it's true. I'm just saying it hasn't been debunked. What about the second honeymoon? What about the second honeymoon? I'm serious. They all say the timing doesn't work out because of when the first honeymoon was. But they gotta dig into the reported second honeymoon. The timing lines up on the second honeymoon. Pierre and Maggie had a lot of fun. Just saying the Yahweh's went into a bowl and who knows whose Yahvehs came out. Can't remember the word for pole. The Canadian Prime Minister also accused Trump of hoping for a total collapse of the Canadian economy because that would make it easier to annex us, which makes sense because breaking somebody's spirit until they don't believe they deserve any better wasn't just his trade strategy. That's always been Trump's dating strategy. And then on Thursday, Trump backed down completely, pausing tariffs on the vast majority of both Mexican and Canadian goods until April 2. That's only four weeks away, so be sure to stock up on your everything. Meanwhile, the former head of the Social Security Administration, Martin O'Malley, told CNBC that Doge's proposed cuts to the department will jeopardize payments to the over 72 million people who receive Social Security, warning of a system collapse and the interruption of benefits in the next 30 to 90 days. I'm hoping it's 90 because I'd like To finish this season of White Lotus in peace before my parents have to move in. Do you always keep the house this cold? You can just ask for me to turn it warmer. That's just simply. You don't have to ask. You know what I mean? It's just ask the question. I'm happy to make it warmer. Do I always keep it this cold? Considering the likelihood that the payment system could become unreliable, O'Malley warned people should start saving now. Don't worry, I'm sure your grandpa will be fine if he just cuts back on luxuries like Baked potato and the lady that comes to his house to make sure he's not dead. Unbelievable. In other Doge news, the Trump administration will reportedly cut 80,000 jobs from the Department of Veterans Affairs. Keep in mind, the VA not only serves veterans, 25% of the VA's employees are veterans themselves. Just a little math. Cutting 80,000 employees from the VA would save you around $8 billion per year while making life worse for millions of veterans. Unless you think a 76 year old veteran being told by an artificial intelligence kiosk that he has abdominal pain because he might be pregnant is a good time. Extending the Trump tax cuts will cost $4 trillion over 10 years. 8 billion. 4 trillion. Fun fact. A family making over a million dollars would get an extra $70,000 on average from the tax cut, roughly equivalent to the salary a lot of the veterans who are about to be fired. Isn't that fun? Isn't that one to one comparison kind of fun? They don't like that. They're Republicans. When you actually break out the numbers and say the Trump tax cuts will give a family with a million dollars just an extra $70,000. Just an extra $70,000 in the pack. Roughly the amount you might pay a nurse working at a VA hospital somewhere. That's the choice we're making. They don't want to make it like it's a choice, but that's the choice we're making. And I'll tell you something, I went from making government money, I made some sitcom money, then I spent it in a period of clinical depression, and then I made some podcast money. And that was surprising because that was really never the goal. And you'd think it would make me kind of maybe relate more to these rich people, right? Like, I understand there's always more. There's always more. You could want the idea that there are people out there with millions of dollars, let alone billions of dollars, complaining about federal taxes. These people are fucking sick. They are sick. They are sick to be anything other than appreciative for the luck and good fortune to get to be in America and make money in America, that they are fucking counting every penny going to the federal government when the fact that we have some redistribution to make palatable this system that allows you to live this incredible life. How fucking dare you? It is sick. And all of this, all of the fucking attacks on the trans people and targeting the immigrants and vilifying dei, all of it is part of a big circus funded by billionaires to distract us from the very simple fact that on one side, you're gonna give millionaires an extra hundred grand, and on the other side, you're gonna fire a nurse. Everything is about distracting us from that. And it just has been bothering me lately. Donald Trump also signed an executive order declaring English the official language of the United States. This is obviously divisive, but it polls 80, 20among people who say Chipotle. In the meantime, Secretary of Agriculture Brooke Rolland has a suggestion for Americans looking for cheaper eggs.

[Natalie Morales]

I think the silver lining in all.

[Jon Lovett]

Of this is how do we. In our backyards. We've got chickens, too, in our backyard. How do we solve for something like this?

[Natalie Morales]

And people are sort of looking around thinking, wow, well, maybe I could get.

[Jon Lovett]

A chicken in my backyard.

[Natalie Morales]

And it's awesome.

[Jon Lovett]

This just in. Trump Secretary of Agriculture Brooke Rollins has been revealed to be a coyote. The U.S. fish and Wildlife Service also helpfully suggested that Americans start chowing down on nutria, a large amphibious rodent, to help control the invasive species population. I hope they taste as good as they look. I'm not sure why eating them is a necessary step. Can't we just kill them? All right, it's an invasive species. Let's kill them. It seems like we don't have to eat them. Eric Adams didn't tell New Yorkers to start snacking on the rats. And you know what? He's usually on the wrong side of stuff. I'm sort of changing my mind on this. A New Jersey man was arrested this week after robbing 14 Dunkin Donuts in two months. Hey, man, I know you're going through a hard time, but I don't think that's gonna impress Jennifer Garner. A Danish performance artist left three piglets to starve to death in protest of the pork industry, only to discover that the trio were stolen in a heist organized by his own employee. Looks like these little piggies are going to the black market. I hope they taste as good as they look. Okay. Pretty confusing protest. I have to say, I'm gonna kill these three pigs to protest killing pigs. Okay. Do you have a second idea? Louisiana's pricey Erewhon grocery store chain is once again going viral online. This time thanks to a fancy strawberry from Japan that is being sold for $19 per berry. The strawberry has been described as delicious by at least one emperor parading naked before his subjects. Kennedy, bring out the inequity berry. Oh. In fact, we discussed getting a berry from the Erewhon on our company card, but it was sold out. That's right. The $19 Japanese strawberry sold one at a time is sold out. What a society. I thought it would have been funny if we had one. And then I dropped it and stepped on it. Or even pretend to have a whole basket of them. And just like Mr. Beaned it. Some of my famous prop work. And finally, scientists have bred woolly mice, seen in this clip being extremely hairy and adorable, as part of their effort to resurrect the woolly mammoth. So cute. I hope they taste as good as they look. Scientists say the next step is to turn the dial on those wooly mice all the way up to trans. It's gonna be expensive, though. Up next, from my dead friend Zoe, it's my alive guest, Natalie Morales. Hey, don't go anywhere. There's more of Love it or leave it coming up. Love it or leave it is brought to you by Armra Colostrum. Everyone's looking for ways to be healthier and stave off winter illnesses. Give your immunity and gut health their best. CH with armor Colostrum. Discover the transformational health benefits of Arma Colostrum that have earned tens of thousands of five star reviews. Probiotics and other supplements are touted as a gut health solution. But most products on the market are dead before they even reach your gut. Dead. They're dead. Arma Colostrum is naturally. John left to go to the bathroom. Arma Colostrum naturally fortifies your entire gut wall system and optimize your whole body microme. He's back. Which helps guard against irides. That's a little too much armor colostrum for me. Hey, there's no hey. Hey. Don't say that. There's no such thing. My gut has never felt better. Anyway. It can. You have to. It'll help guard against irritants that can trigger digestive issues and compromise your immune system. Research has shown that Colostrum helps to enhance nutrient absorption. Armor Colostrum can help stabilize blood sugar levels, modulate hormones, and ignite your metabolism Colostrum bioactives have also been shown to reactivate hair follicle stem cells and activate collagen production, promoting hair growth and enhancing skin radiance. We've worked out a special offer. Receive 15% off your first order. Go to tryarmora.com Love it or enter Love It. To get 15% off your first order. That's T R Y A R M R A.com LoveIt.

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[Jon Lovett]

Usaa. And we're back. Welcome to the stage, an incredible actress who always makes you go, she's in this. I love her. Please put your hands together for the amazing Natalie Morales. Hi. Hi. Thank you for being here. Good to see you. Welcome. First of all, we were reminiscing briefly backstage that you were on this stage in a very early iteration of this show when we were in San Francisco for outside lands and it was shortly after Trump got elected. And we were thinking, how do we get through this? It's so strange. It's so different. And here we are eight years later, and it's so different now. Yeah.

[Natalie Morales]

Here we are again, John. Who would have thunk?

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, right, Right. No, it does feel.

[Natalie Morales]

It gets weird.

[Jon Lovett]

The hyperreal feeling of the era and the kind of slow disintegration of your connection to reality that once you start to accept that this is a timeline, it starts to make it hard to.

[Natalie Morales]

And that you're in it and then you're living it. And that you also need to get lunch.

[Jon Lovett]

And you do always need lunch. Every day. Every day lunch comes.

[Natalie Morales]

It's a weird dissonance. Yeah.

[Jon Lovett]

But sometimes it's fun to think about lunch. You know, sometimes it's a nice part of the day.

[Natalie Morales]

I hate thinking about lunch. I hate thinking about what I'm going to eat.

[Jon Lovett]

Really?

[Natalie Morales]

Yes. Unless I really want something, you know, you guys know you hate thinking about what you want to eat every night. Yeah.

[Jon Lovett]

Thank you for joining me.

[Natalie Morales]

I'm so happy to be here. John, give me some questions.

[Jon Lovett]

Tonight, in honor of Natalie's incredible career, she and I will take turns asking you, the audience about her film and television credits, which, if you Google them, do come up alongside those of the other Natalie Morales, the journalist formerly of CBS is the Talk.

[Natalie Morales]

This is not embarrassing for me at all. Let's do it.

[Jon Lovett]

So it's time for us to play was I In this Natalie Morales edition. So here's how it works. We're gonna bring the lights up.

[Natalie Morales]

Oh. People are gonna actually answer this on a mic. Okay.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah.

[Natalie Morales]

This is exciting.

[Jon Lovett]

Hi. What's your name? My name is Jason. Jason. Oh, you have a very good ravely tone. Yes. Wow. Every time I got a call, someone asked me if I'm sick. I was gonna say, are you single? You know what I mean?

[Natalie Morales]

Yeah, that's what I. Yeah, I was gonna say that too. Yeah. You got a great voice. Still don't ask us. Thank you. Just say, like, no, I'm not single. I'm sexy. That's all. All right, Jason. I play the deceased best friend of a US Veteran struggling to cope with life outside of the military.

[Jon Lovett]

True. Correct.

[Natalie Morales]

Correct. True. Good job. Good job, Jason. I star alongside Sonequa Martin Green and Ed Harris and Morgan Freeman in my new dramedy, My Dead Friend Zoe, that is out in theaters right now. Yes.

[Jon Lovett]

Hey.

[Natalie Morales]

Hey.

[Jon Lovett]

What's Ed Harris like?

[Natalie Morales]

He's exactly what you think. He's like.

[Jon Lovett]

I'm serious.

[Natalie Morales]

He's. He. He can be pretty goofy. He loves dogs. He's a delightful man. But you. He's so unreadable that it's terrifying because you'll be like. You'll say. You'll say a joke. He'll be like, yeah, you know, because you love dogs, Ed. And he'll be like, yeah, I do. And you're like, oh, God. But he's great. And I loved working with him so much.

[Jon Lovett]

I was thinking of how in, like, the Truman Show, Ed Harris plays Kristoff, and he lends it this sort of seriousness, like, kind of. Because Ed Harris is this sort of gravitas as an actor. And then you read that it was actually originally supposed to be played by. Who is the villain in the movie? Speed Hopper. Dennis Hopper. And you're like, oh, this is written to be like a cartoon villain. And then Ed Harris gets in the role, and it's like, there's gravitas, and then Morgan Freeman's there.

[Natalie Morales]

Yeah. That was crazy. I do want to just talk about Ed Harris again. The other day, we were doing a lot of promo together, and I was like, ed, have you ever done a rom com? And he was like, I don't think so. And I was like, would you do one if I wrote one for you? I'd love to see you in a rom com. Can I make one with you? And he's like, you got my email? And I was like, all right.

[Jon Lovett]

Wow.

[Natalie Morales]

All right, that's cool. Wouldn't that be great to see him in a rom com?

[Jon Lovett]

So great. Love to see that kind of brooding energy in a rom com.

[Natalie Morales]

Uh huh.

[Jon Lovett]

It's like, what if Notting Hill made you really sad?

[Natalie Morales]

No. You want to see Ed in love.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah.

[Natalie Morales]

Sweet guy.

[Jon Lovett]

All right, up next, who else is gonna go? Oh, this person has their hand up. Hi. What's your name? Rexy.

[Natalie Morales]

Rexy. It's a nickname. I love it.

[Jon Lovett]

Natalie starred as the titular bisexual ex marine bar owner at the center of an NBC sitcom. True or false. I'd love to see it.

[Emily St. James]

So let's say true.

[Jon Lovett]

Correct.

[Natalie Morales]

Correct. Good job.

[Jon Lovett]

In 2019's Abby.

[Natalie Morales]

Titular.

[Jon Lovett]

Titular. Another screen character, I noticed, and another.

[Natalie Morales]

Show with a Latino lead that NBC buried. Oh, it's true.

[Jon Lovett]

Oh, look at that.

[Natalie Morales]

That's us.

[Jon Lovett]

And Abby was bisexual.

[Natalie Morales]

You keep saying that. Yeah, she was.

[Jon Lovett]

I said it twice.

[Natalie Morales]

You did say it twice. She was. I was very. I was actually the first bisexual, like, lead on a. On a network show.

[Jon Lovett]

That's cool.

[Natalie Morales]

Yeah.

[Jon Lovett]

Was it like, central to the story or was it just a part of the character? Was the pilot about I got a date with a man and I got a date with a woman?

[Natalie Morales]

No, no, the pilot was about. And it would have been. It was in 2019, and it would have been perfect in 2020 because it was a pilot. It was a show. We did the whole first season. It was shot all outside in front of a live audience. Outside, outside. Because it was a backyard bar. And it was. Mike Shirk was the executive producer. It was. It was all. It was awesome. It was really funny. But the. The president of NBC who bought it left, and then the two new presidents that came in were like, that's not our show. Let's not ever talk about it. And that's what happened with that. It was fun.

[Jon Lovett]

Hollywood. Hollywood. Hollywood. Tough town.

[Natalie Morales]

Yeah.

[Jon Lovett]

Tough town.

[Natalie Morales]

Tough town. Now there's a. Surprisingly, there's now a show with Reba, who owns a bar. And is she bisexual on NBC? Probably.

[Jon Lovett]

That's cool. Bisexual. Reba. I mean, I'm in. All right. Oh, it says here that you were the first Cuban woman to lead a sitcom in the US well, since Desi are.

[Natalie Morales]

Well, Cuban woman. Yeah. But since Desi are. As the first Cuban person since I Love Lucy.

[Jon Lovett]

Wow.

[Natalie Morales]

Yeah.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. Because I. I think Desi identified as a man.

[Natalie Morales]

He did until his death. So Cuban woman.

[Jon Lovett]

Little fact about Desi Arnaz.

[Natalie Morales]

Yeah.

[Jon Lovett]

Married to Lucille Ball. Famously.

[Natalie Morales]

Famously. Desilu.

[Jon Lovett]

All right, let's. Let's go to somebody else.

[Natalie Morales]

Yeah. Okay, who's sitting next to Rexy?

[Emily St. James]

Oh, I'm Mandy.

[Natalie Morales]

Hi, Mandy. All right. I had a blink, and you'll miss it. Cameo in Zoolander 2.

[Jon Lovett]

Probably true.

[Natalie Morales]

True, false. Unfortunately, that was Natalie Morales, the journalist. For some reason, we couldn't find a photo of her. So here's Ben Stiller as Derek Zoolander giving Blue Steel. Did you see him do the glambot of that in the Oscars? It's great. He did the glam bottom and he goes. He does the thing. It was amazing.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. All right. Yeah, we're moving on. Let's do. I'll do one. Now that we played a sopholic sheriff.

[Natalie Morales]

Sophic.

[Jon Lovett]

I think it means lesbian.

[Natalie Morales]

Yeah, no, it's sapphic.

[Jon Lovett]

Sapphic.

[Natalie Morales]

Yeah, I know what it means. I'm just correcting your pronunciation.

[Jon Lovett]

Sapphic. Sapphic.

[Natalie Morales]

No, Sapphic.

[Jon Lovett]

Sapphic or salvic.

[Natalie Morales]

Sapphic.

[Jon Lovett]

All right, you dykes. Fucking classic lesbians. Persnickety as always.

[Natalie Morales]

I'm just gonna say you should trim that.

[Jon Lovett]

Nah, nah. I bully the lesbians on this show.

[Natalie Morales]

All right.

[Jon Lovett]

It wouldn't be the first time a.

[Natalie Morales]

Gay man did that.

[Jon Lovett]

They can still buy tickets. Okay, I'm not gonna have a lesbian on this stage. I don't recognize that stripe of the flag. It'll be gbtq. If it were up to me, they could get their own flag. I'm sick of it.

[Natalie Morales]

Those letters are the only time women come first.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, okay, that's true. All right.

[Natalie Morales]

He'S pissed. Okay, who wants to go next? Read it, read it. Read it. Go ahead. Oh, yeah, no, we need someone to go next, right?

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, we need somebody to go.

[Natalie Morales]

Andy.

[Jon Lovett]

No, wait. Who has the mic? Hi. What's your name? Vicki. Vicki, Natalie played a sapphic sheriff. Seems wrong. In the Drew Barrymore cannibalism comedy Santa Clarita Diet.

[Natalie Morales]

I'm gonna go with true because I.

[Jon Lovett]

Really want it to be true. It is true.

[Natalie Morales]

It is true. She was a. I was Deputy Ann Garcia, and she was also ultra religious. It was one of my favorite characters I ever played. She was, like, this really religious lesbian cop, and I loved every second of it. I only wore Wrangler jeans when I wasn't wearing my uniform, and it was awesome.

[Jon Lovett]

That's fun.

[Natalie Morales]

It was really fun. Even though you hate lesbians, but it was really fun.

[Jon Lovett]

I just don't see them. I just see clothes floating.

[Natalie Morales]

Yeah.

[Jon Lovett]

Makes it hard to watch women's soccer. It's like, who's it? What is happening?

[Natalie Morales]

Oh, wait, I read that. I'm sorry.

[Jon Lovett]

No, it's fine. We're doing great. You don't ever have to apologize.

[Natalie Morales]

Did you know you read that? I read the next one.

[Jon Lovett]

You read the next one.

[Natalie Morales]

Okay, sorry. Are we ready for that? Should we find an audience victim? Okay. Hi, what's your name?

[Jon Lovett]

Adam.

[Natalie Morales]

Hi, Adam.

[Jon Lovett]

Hi, Adam.

[Natalie Morales]

Okay. I voiced a newscaster in Rio too.

[Jon Lovett]

Rio 2? Yeah. Okay.

[Natalie Morales]

False.

[Jon Lovett]

Come on, think it fucking through.

[Natalie Morales]

Sorry, Adam. Newscaster was the clue.

[Jon Lovett]

Newscaster is the other Natalie Morales, you dumb fuck.

[Natalie Morales]

Although, like, also, like, she's very sweet. I really do like her. But, like, step off. Like, why are you acting?

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, Other Natalie Morales. Back off, back off.

[Natalie Morales]

She's really nice. Okay?

[Jon Lovett]

She's wonderful. Wonderful, good people. Salt the earth. Natalie directed and co starred in the 2021 coming of age comedy Plan B. What's your name?

[Natalie Morales]

True. Rabia.

[Jon Lovett]

Rabia. You say true, true. Wrong. Thanks for volunteering. Natalie only directed Plan B.

[Natalie Morales]

That's true. But I do make a cameo in it.

[Jon Lovett]

You do make a cameo.

[Natalie Morales]

Kind of true.

[Jon Lovett]

Kind of true.

[Natalie Morales]

Kind of true.

[Jon Lovett]

Let's give her the good ding. I feel bad. I was too high.

[Natalie Morales]

If you've watched the movie, I draw a dick on someone's face while they're sleeping because I felt like I should be the one to do that.

[Jon Lovett]

You know what's funny about the drawing a dick on someone's face prank? I'll tell you.

[Natalie Morales]

Tell us, John.

[Jon Lovett]

Drawing anything on someone's face is annoying, you know?

[Natalie Morales]

But you were gonna say what was funny about it.

[Jon Lovett]

Well, I just think, like, draw anything. Like, oh, my God, you drew a dick.

[Natalie Morales]

Like, drawing a dick is, like, at least for me, pretty much always funny.

[Jon Lovett]

It is always funny.

[Natalie Morales]

Yeah.

[Jon Lovett]

Now in the movie, it's about a two. No.

[Natalie Morales]

Vulvas are very serious.

[Jon Lovett]

Vulvas are serious.

[Natalie Morales]

They are vulva. Nobody laughs at a Georgia O'Keeffe. Everyone just cries. But a penis. Hilarious. Okay.

[Jon Lovett]

People cry, I think, when they look at a Georgia O'Keeffe.

[Natalie Morales]

I have.

[Jon Lovett]

Wow. Okay.

[Natalie Morales]

Am I the next one?

[Jon Lovett]

Well, I wanted to keep asking you.

[Natalie Morales]

Sorry. Please.

[Jon Lovett]

So plan B follows two teen girls as they try to obtain the morning after pill.

[Natalie Morales]

Correct.

[Jon Lovett]

Politics.

[Natalie Morales]

Yep.

[Jon Lovett]

Did you have any pushback? Was it hard to get it done? Like, was hard to get it made?

[Natalie Morales]

No, it wasn't hard to get it made. What was shocking but maybe shouldn't have been as shocking was when we were promoting the film and when I was doing press for it, which I did a lot of press for it, Journalists, many, many, many journalists were like, so, you know, this is a movie about them getting the abortion pill. And I was like, nope, it's plan B. And they were like, so the abortion pill. And I'm like, no, it's contraception. It's contraception. It's not that. And, like, so many people don't know that.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah.

[Natalie Morales]

Which is shocking. And I. And I knew that ahead of time, so I made sure that in the movie so many times we say what it is, what it does, contraception, that you can't. That it doesn't work if you're already pregnant, that it won't kill a baby, that you can't get pregnant immediately after having sex, that it takes a few days, which is why plan B works. And, like, but it's insane that, like, the sex education is America in America is such that people have no idea. Grown people that are doing news and interviewing people, like, don't know that.

[Jon Lovett]

But do you think that's led to any other problems? Let's do. Let's do one more.

[Natalie Morales]

Sure. Is this me?

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah.

[Natalie Morales]

Okay, who's our next victim?

[Jon Lovett]

Hi, Maria.

[Natalie Morales]

Maria. Okay. Hi, Maria. Okay. And finally, I played myself in the iconic 2016 picture Sharknado 4 the 4th awakens. And I got to wear an eye patch. I'm going to go with, yes, it's false. That was somehow the other Natalie Morales yet again. And now we do have a photo. Yeah.

[Jon Lovett]

Is that it?

[Natalie Morales]

I want to see that.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, I want to see that too. Yeah, I want to see that, too. That's Al Roker as himself as well.

[Natalie Morales]

Yeah.

[Jon Lovett]

Oh, wow. You ever yell at him?

[Natalie Morales]

No, but I don't think he would make me get my period.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, I've yelled at him once at Al Roker.

[Natalie Morales]

Why was he in your way?

[Jon Lovett]

He knows what he did.

[Natalie Morales]

He was in the bike lane.

[Jon Lovett]

He was in the bike lane, Natalie. Everybody should go see my dead friend Zoe. And you play. Is there a spoiler if I tell what.

[Natalie Morales]

No, I play Zoe.

[Jon Lovett]

You play who's dead?

[Natalie Morales]

Yeah. No, it's in the title.

[Jon Lovett]

Right, but. So you're a ghost.

[Natalie Morales]

No, I'm not a ghost, but I'm dead. I'm more of a guilt demon, I would say.

[Jon Lovett]

Oh, a guilt demon.

[Natalie Morales]

Yeah.

[Jon Lovett]

Everybody should go see my dead friend Zoe. Thank you so much, Natalie. When we come back, she's a small town girl living in a lonely world. It's Emily St. James. Hey, don't go anywhere. There's more of Love it or leave it Coming up. Today's episode is sponsored by Acorns. They say money can't buy you happiness. Sounds like Something people without money would say. But money sure can make you feel like a lot of things. Like stress, guilty, overwhelmed. That's because when you're not in control of your money, your money can control you. Acorn is a financial wellness app that helps you take control of your money with simple tools that make it easy to start saving and investing for your future. You don't need to be an expert. Acorns will recommend a diverse portfolio that matches you and your money goals. You don't need to be rich. Acorns lets you get started with the smear money you've got right now. Even if all you have is spare change, you can create your Acorns account and start investing in just five minutes. Financial wellness doesn't have to feel impossible. Possible. Acorns gives you small simple steps to get you and your money on track. Basically, Acorns does the hard part so you can give your money a chance to grow. I'll just tell you like when I was in my 20s, which was is getting longer further and further in the past, I like was busy. I was not making a lot of money. I didn't think I like. I knew I needed to start dealing with things like saving for retirement and having some sort of retirement account. I didn't understand how it worked. I didn't do it and was stupid because the money you save when you're younger, it grows your whole life. Ready to take control of your money? Sign up now and join the over 14 million all time customers who have already saved and invested over $25 billion with Acorns. Head to acorns.com/love it or download the Acorns app to get started. Paid non client endorsement compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns tier one compensation provided investing involves risk. Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC registered investment advisor. View important [e-mail] Love it.

[Unknown]

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[Jon Lovett]

Usaa. And we're back. Please welcome to the stage the author of Crooked Media's latest release Woodworking. It's the wickedly talented. What Emily St. James. Come on out. Hi hi hi. Welcome back. Good to see ya.

[Emily St. James]

Hello.

[Jon Lovett]

Thanks for being here. Okay, now brought the book.

[Emily St. James]

It's a prop.

[Jon Lovett]

That's it.

[Emily St. James]

We got.

[Jon Lovett]

Let me see this. We got the book right here. We got to put it right there.

[Emily St. James]

Yeah.

[Jon Lovett]

You know, we can put it there.

[Emily St. James]

You can gesture to it now.

[Jon Lovett]

I will gesture to it. Yeah, Just do it all the whole goddamn. I got it. There we go.

[Emily St. James]

We did it.

[Jon Lovett]

So first of all, welcome. Good to see you.

[Emily St. James]

It's good to be here. Yes. Thank you, John.

[Jon Lovett]

Tommy and I wrote a book with Josh that was four people writing a book that did have pictures and it basically destroyed us. So this, Congrats anybody that writes a real book. Holy shit. Holy shit. And I just want to tell you, I love the book. Thank you. I genuinely love the book. And I'll just be honest, like, I was excited because when, when the proposal came, I like, this is a, I thought about the politics first. Sincerely.

[Emily St. James]

Sure, sure.

[Jon Lovett]

Politics. And I was like, I love the politics of this book. I love the messages it has. I love you as a person. I'm interested. Let's do it. And then I read, I was like, oh my God, it's so fucking entertaining. It is such a good read. Everybody should go to crooked.combooks and buy woodworking. It's an incredible novel. It is such a fun read. I promise you the message is great. The politics of the book are great, but you won't care about that because it's an amazing story. And I just want to say that.

[Emily St. James]

On the front right here it says big hearted and hilarious and that they don't lie in those pull quotes ever.

[Jon Lovett]

So we're going to dive into the substance of it. But I just want to start by saying that like, truly, like, it's just like it could be a beach read. And it actually reminded me a lot like, of, of, like, of like normal people just in that it's like, you know, I don't know if that, I don't hope that's not an insulting comparison, but like, I think like, there's something, it's just, you'll really like it.

[Emily St. James]

I knew, like, I knew when I went out with the book that it was going to be, it's a book about trans people. And people were going to hear that and they were going to be like, oh, this is going to be so like heart wrenching and boring. And I'm going to sit down. It's going to be like finally she put on the dress and saw herself as she truly was unfolding like a flower before herself. And I was like, I don't want to do that. And so I, I, I just did a lot of jokes. That was my strategy to overcome that. I just thought, what if it Was funny and. And entertaining, and there were plots.

[Jon Lovett]

It really is.

[Emily St. James]

Thank you.

[Jon Lovett]

So now, look, this show is pretty gay, and we have a lot of amazing queer guests and no lesbians, but everybody else and always welcome. But we wanted to have you on as a writer and as a member of the larger crooked family. But, like, I struggle with this. Like, I hate the idea of, like, oh, we have a trans guest on let's talk about trans issues.

[Emily St. James]

Sure.

[Jon Lovett]

And, you know, we had Nori Reid on a couple one show or two shows ago, and we were. She was talking about that. That, like, you just want to be a comedian, but you're a trans comedian, and so you have to be an activist. But, like, this is a book about the trans experience. So let's talk about the trans experience. What is woodworking?

[Emily St. James]

Woodworking is a term from the trans community in the 70s and 80s, which, basically, the idea was that you would transition and you would get to a point where you could pass as a cisgender person. You would cut off all contact with your past life, and you would disappear into a large city, and you would disappear into the woodwork is how the term came to be. And there are a number of women who did this. I talked to several of them as I was working on the book. And, you know, they would have husbands, they would have whole lives where maybe their doctor knew that they were trans and like, nobody else did. And so they were there having these quote, unquote, normal lives, and they had this secret eating away inside of them. And then as trans acceptance started to sort of creep toward the mainstream in the mid 2010s, like, more and more of them started to sort of share their stories. And some of them spoke with me, but there's still so many people who now are like, I'm just gonna not talk about that for the obvious reasons. And it was really eating away at them inside.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, there's something in the book. There's Abigail, who's the teen character. It's a little bit of fantasy for her. It's a lot of fantasy for her that she'll get to leave this world behind and just be a girl and be a woman.

[Emily St. James]

Yeah. Abigail starts transitioning when she's 16. And when you start transitioning that young, you know, you, quote, unquote, pass very well. And so her idea is, right now, I live in small town South Dakota. Abigail does. She lives in a town called Mitchell. And she's like, I'm gonna leave there. I'm gonna go to Chicago or Minneapolis. I'm going to change my name or my last name, and I'm just going to live a life as this person, and it's a dream for her. And I think the book is. But that's, like, where you start her. And if you know how character arcs work, you know that she's going to, like, have that challenged across the course of the book. But it is kind of like her idea of a thing to do.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, well, it's. You know, there's the ways in which characters discover that that's impossible.

[Emily St. James]

Right.

[Jon Lovett]

You can't. This is who you are. You can't run from who you are.

[Emily St. James]

You can try, though. I'm doing it right now.

[Jon Lovett]

You're doing it right now. Amelia Perez tried to do that. But that is a little bit the story. That is a little bit what Emilia Perez is trying to do. A movie we're not going to discuss. Unless you'd like to.

[Emily St. James]

We can talk, Amelia. Let's do it. No, no.

[Jon Lovett]

But a perfect film. But the. As I've said on this stage, a perfect, flawless film. But the. But like, what. What I was thinking about in reading it is that we spend so much time talking about trans tolerance and acceptance and fighting to a baseline of not being persecuted. But what was interesting in just reading this story, which has, from the perspective of two different trans people, both immature in their own ways, but one further along on their trans journey, the other further along in, say, life's journey, and one of the characters is a teacher who's older. When they're accepting themselves as being trans is, you see, kind of unacknowledged, the beautiful aspects of being trans and the access it gives you to certain truths about gender that most people don't see. And I was wondering if you could talk about that.

[Emily St. James]

We're living in an era when transness is largely understood as we've backslid to this point, where it's understood as, like, a trick, you know, Ace Ventura at the end when the character is revealed to be a trans woman and everyone's like, she was really a man. And it's. Everyone throws up and it was a trick. We're now back to that in this, like, weird sort of dark way. A lot of this Tommy Tuberville, the world's smartest senator, was talking about how there's whole teams of boys dressed up as girls playing women's sports now, and that's not happening, but it is like, every single thing that people are talking about is like, a bad Rodney Dangerfield movie from, like, 1998. And we're just stuck with it. And I think that people don't sort of fundamentally, you don't understand that, like, this is a joyful, beautiful thing that is just a normal way of being a human. And it's not something to be afraid of or something to feel is a trick or a fraud that's being pulled on you. It's just a type of human being. And I'm hopeful that Tommy Tuberville will read my book and get past the first page.

[Jon Lovett]

And we have other ways of fixing politics. We don't rely on that. I hope we have other plans.

[Emily St. James]

No, the whole plan is everyone reads my book and that fixes America.

[Jon Lovett]

One thing that made me think this just about if we could get past. If we get past acceptance, which obviously is a hard place to get to, that we're not at. Erica, the teacher is just desperate for a female friend, Just a normal female friendship. And what I thought when I was reading this, you know, in the eyes of this character, she's desperate for a female friend because she's discovered she is trans. But you realize, just like, my God, how many straight men would benefit from having a female friend? And that these straight men and these straight women, cisgender in this world are so hidden from each other.

[Emily St. James]

Yeah. There's a sense where Erika, who was living as a straight man, air quotes for so much of her life, would start to be friends with a woman and then this wall would go up between them and would be like this. This happened to me as well. It was. You know, it feels like there's a thing that's happening here that I'm not entirely sure what it is, and I'm scared you're going to make it weird, basically. And I would always be like, no, I don't want to make it weird. I just want to be your best friend forever. I'm just going to, like, lean in right here and let's hang out and go shopping together. And they'd be like, no, no, thank you. And then the second I came out, they were like, oh, that's what that was. Okay. And then that switch flipped. And it didn't happen with every person I knew, but I sort of did want to capture that experience of, like, being honest with yourself. Lets other people see you in a way that can let them accept you.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. And just the other part of it, too is just there's a scene where Erica is trying on a dress and is kind of overwhelmed by the experience and talking to her ex wife. And the ex wife has been like, oh, you didn't like how you looked in a dress and it made you feel bad about yourself. Yeah, yeah, that's us. Every. Every day. And the kind of, like the. There's an. I am always. I've thought about this myself as somebody that has often struggled to know the difference between dysmorphia and dysphoria.

[Emily St. James]

Sure.

[Jon Lovett]

And that's something that this character grapples with a lot. I'm just curious, like, if you could just talk a little bit about that. Because there's a way in which. In that scene, I thought it gets at something, again, that I think transness exposes, which is this trans character who is still presenting more as a man, wants to feel beautiful, looks at themselves, at herself, doesn't feel beautiful. And it's hard to tell where the gender dysphoria, the being in the wrong feeling as though you're in the wrong body ends, and just the brutal experience of just being a woman begins.

[Emily St. James]

Yeah. I think if there's one thing I hope everyone in the world can relate to in this book, it's that having a body is weird and bad and we should not have to do it. I do think that part of why transness upsets some people so much is that it's like we are saying having a body is weird and we can do something about that. And people are like, no, we are just here to suffer this body that we are put into. And I think. I do hope that I want this book to sort of show people the ways in which living a life that's more honest and more open can be beneficial to you and to everyone around you, even if there's pain and fear at the start. And that applies to literally everybody on the planet right now.

[Jon Lovett]

Right? Yeah. And I think that's. I do think that's part of what threatens people so much. And it does it on that. On the axis of just having a body, but also just in. You know, Trump said this in his State of the Union, and it's quite a trick that they're trying to pull. And I've heard some people on the right try to pull this, which is, you know, on the one hand, they have these incredibly rigid notions of what it means to be a man and what it means to be a woman. But then when all of a sudden someone says they're trans, they say, oh, you're being convinced by the left that there's a wrong way to be a boy or a wrong way to be a girl. And actually, you think that being trans means that actually you need to change your gender. But really we just need a more expansive definition of what this gender is. And those things don't. Those are in contradiction, obviously, but they're not wrong that what they're getting at with their own internal contradictions can't resolve is transness does challenge some fundamental ideas about gender. And it is an interplay of culture and biology.

[Emily St. James]

Yeah, one thing I find, you know, pat Robertson, the 700 Club guy, a totally rancid, horrible human being.

[Jon Lovett]

May his memory be a blessing.

[Emily St. James]

He, right up until Obergefell, the marriage equality decision, was saying, well, obviously trans people, gender dysphoria is real and we need to treat it. And the best way to treat it is transition. You can find clips of him saying this in early 2015. Obergefell comes out mid 2015. By the end of that year, he's flipped around, has been like, well, we have to get rid of trans people. It's that transparent how quickly they flipped the strategy as soon as marriage equality came through. It's a way to drive a wedge between trans people and all queer people to slowly start wearing away at the broader acceptance of queerness. And it's really cynical.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, I think because I'm in a relationship with a trans person and I still see myself as gay, but according to the Trump administration, I'm in a heterosexual relationship, but of course I'm not.

[Emily St. James]

I think we're both becoming straighter by the second because I'm married to a woman, but there are no lesbians on this show. So it's like I'm getting tugged in that direction.

[Jon Lovett]

Well, yeah, that's a good. But, yeah, I mean, but according to this, according to the Trump administration, yeah, we're American as apple fucking pie. This is what I wanted to ask you about. You wrote an essay of Vanity Fair. Let's come back to where we started explaining that the Substance is a better trans film than Amelia Perez.

[Emily St. James]

This is true. Most films are better trans films than Emilia Perez, I have to say. Yeah, the Substance is a movie that is not unlike the novel woodworking by Emily St. James, available at Kirkhood.com Books Books. It is a book about when I first came out to myself and really started examining my gender. I had a 13 year old girl who'd been locked up in the back of my brain because I was like, I'm not gonna listen to you. And she woke up and she was like, hey, let's go sleep over at our best friend's. And then we're going to like prank call boys. And it's going to be fun. I was like, I am in my 30s and I have a job and a marriage, so we're not going to do that. She was like, it's no fun. So I was like both the, like, rebellious teenage daughter and her mother at the same time. And the substance is kind of about that because it's about this. This woman who essentially gives birth to a much younger, hotter version of herself who's her, but also not her. And that just captured something so fundamental to me about, like, waking up one morning and being an adult who nevertheless has this much younger person who's like, trying to get your attention and having to sort of synthesize those two things in the substance. Those two things are synthesized very well. Nothing bad happens. And there's not a giant monster that explodes in blood.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. That's also not. I mean, that's a gay. I mean, I think there's a lot. But no, but it is a very gay. It is a very. You know, a lot of gay guys go through a kind of a late adolescence. They go through kind of like they're. I mean, they go nuts in their 20s or whenever they come out because they, like, I, you know, I miss the. I didn't go to my prom. I missed the whole. The kind of high school experience. And you do actually see in the novel that, like, Erica has some jealousy towards Abigail, who, despite feeling put upon in all the ways, she really is sort of struggling. Does get a part of what every girl wants in high school that someone like Erica or a lot of queer people don't get.

[Emily St. James]

She gets to kiss the cute boy. You know, Abigail's story is like, if she isn't trans, it's just the punk girl who the jock falls in love with. And like, that is the thing that Erica will. Erica's 35. She's not gonna get to have that. She's not gonna magically suddenly wake up and be 16 again. And that's good. I think that probably we shouldn't be 16 again. Sounds not fun, but it is also very sad sometimes if you're and have to cope with the fact that you have only become yourself as an adult.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. And it does terrify, I think, the right to imagine a world where those queer kids just get to be kids, you know, and they're wrong.

[Emily St. James]

Yeah.

[Jon Lovett]

Emily, thank you so much, everybody. Please go to crooked.com books. Pick up woodworking. It's also available on an audiobook. Wait. Before we get to our next segment, couple notes. Trump's address to Congress was the longest in history. But beneath the 100 minute spectacle was the same dangerous rhetoric on immigration, crime and trans rights. So what now? In the latest episode of Assembly Required, Stacey Abrams is joined by Jen Psaki, host of MSNBC's Inside with Jen Psaki, to break it all down. Strategize about how Democrats and all of us can push back. Listen to Assembly Required now. New episodes drop every Thursday wherever you get your podcast. Also, if you're in LA, come to Dynasty Typewriter next Thursday, March 13th to check out Love it or Leave It Live with special guests Tig Notaro and Stephanie Allen. Get [e-mail] events. We'll be right back. Hey, don't go anywhere. There's more of Love it or Leave it coming up. Love it or Leave it is brought to you by Factor Ready to optimize your nutrition this year, Factor has chef made gourmet meals that make eating well easy. They're dietitian approved, ready to heat and eat in two minutes so you can fuel right and feel great no matter what life throws at you. Factor arrives fresh, fully prepared, perfect for any active, busy lifestyle. We know you have an active, busy lifestyle. We know it. We know it. Now. It is my theory that there's a collective delusion that we're all busy, that there are some people who are busy, but most people have four hours of fucking screen time. So you're just sort of fake busy. But even still, what do you want to do? You want to spend all day slaving over a stove or you want to reheat something while watching your sweet, sweet tiktoks? Because that two minutes it takes to reheat something. You watch so many tiktoks. Get those tiktoks. Get those tiktoks in your brain. Lose up to eight pounds in eight weeks with Factor's Keto meals. Based on a randomized controlled clinical trial with Factor Keto results will vary depending on diet and exercise, of course. With 40 options across eight dietary preferences on the menu each week, it's easy to pick meals tailored to your goals. Choose from preferences like Calorie Smart, Protein plus or Keto Factor can help you feel your best all day long with wholesome smoothies, breakfast grab and go snacks and more add ons. They had keto friendly cookies that I used to love. I love. Reach your goals this year with ingredients you can trust in convenience that can't be beat. Love Factor have you often had Factor? It's a great you open up that you can picking the meals is so Fun. Then you arrive, you get this great choice of meals in your fridge. Makes life easy, makes life better. Eat smart with Factor. Get [e-mail] FactorPodcast and use code FactorPodcast to get 50% off your first box plus free shipping. That's Code Factor Podcast at Factor Meals.com FactorPodcast to get 50 percent off plus free shipping on your first box.

[Unknown]

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[Jon Lovett]

And we're back. Please welcome back to the stage, it's Natalie Morales.

[Natalie Morales]

Hello.

[Jon Lovett]

Welcome, Natalie. Thank you. Thank you.

[Emily St. James]

All right, great.

[Jon Lovett]

Here we go. Emily, you wrote for the third season of Yellow Jackets.

[Emily St. James]

Yes.

[Jon Lovett]

Currently airing on Showtime. While Natalie, you directed the hilarious and politically timely 2021 comedy plan B. I wanted to ask you both about writing for and about teen girls, but I also really wanted to talk to you about cannibalism because yellow jackets and Santa Clarita diet are about eating people. So it's time for a segment we call to all the Boys I Ate before, also known as 10 Things I Ate about you, also known as Gossip Grill. It's time for a rapid fire segment. Are you ready?

[Emily St. James]

Yes.

[Jon Lovett]

First, did you get superlatives in your high school yearbook?

[Emily St. James]

No.

[Natalie Morales]

Yes. I can't remember what it was, though. It was like, you know, most likely to do this shit probably.

[Emily St. James]

You know, I think it was most likely to play a hyper religious lesbian cop on a show about a zombie. That's what I remember it being. I was there.

[Jon Lovett]

All right. Our plane crashes. Okay, okay, I'm dead.

[Emily St. James]

Okay.

[Jon Lovett]

A chef was also a passenger aboard the plane. She. Yes, she. Also dead. But she was carrying a suitcase full of delicious spices. Would it be more wrong to use the spices when cooking my human flesh to make my flesh more palatable? Is it more immoral and wrong to make.

[Natalie Morales]

To make you taste good?

[Jon Lovett]

To make you delicious?

[Natalie Morales]

No.

[Emily St. James]

No. We are gonna make you delicious, Johnny.

[Natalie Morales]

Yeah, I think it would only do you honor.

[Emily St. James]

Yeah, I think that's right.

[Jon Lovett]

We talked about that.

[Emily St. James]

I think you taste good with a little coriander.

[Jon Lovett]

Oh, wow.

[Emily St. James]

Just a smidgen.

[Natalie Morales]

If someone was gonna eat me, I would want me to taste good.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, but see, there's a. There's something to be said for that. Understanding that this is an emergency and you're doing something out of desperate need to have the experience match it.

[Natalie Morales]

Like have the essential Time.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, well, sure, sure.

[Natalie Morales]

It's not that kind of emergency.

[Jon Lovett]

Hey, here's a question. You know you're gonna have you crash.

[Natalie Morales]

Yeah.

[Jon Lovett]

You know you're gonna have to eat somebody. Nobody's coming. You're gonna have to eat people. There just aren't enough pretzels. But there are pretzels. Pretzels. Okay. You have like a bunch of bags of pretzels.

[Emily St. James]

Okay.

[Jon Lovett]

You will have to eat people. You know that. There's no getting out of that. You're stuck in this mountain.

[Natalie Morales]

I don't know that I could, but sure.

[Jon Lovett]

Do you finish the pretzels and then start on the people, obviously, or do you have just to make the whole experience a little better? Pretzels and human pretzels. And human pretzels.

[Natalie Morales]

No, because you don't know when you're gonna get rescued and you hope that it's at the end of the pretzel. Pretzels.

[Emily St. James]

Yeah.

[Natalie Morales]

Because if you go pretty, you go pretzel human. And then you get rescued and you had all these pretzels left.

[Jon Lovett]

If you hear helicopters, you got to eat a lot of pretzels. Which high school fashion trend would you rather pluck your eyes from your skull than see Gen Alpha revive again? Mine or Jankos?

[Natalie Morales]

No, I love Jankos. I wore those all the time. I love them. Yes. The ones that they make now are not as good as the ones they made then. I would wear those any second.

[Emily St. James]

Those kids look so cool.

[Natalie Morales]

They're great.

[Emily St. James]

Yeah.

[Jon Lovett]

What a time.

[Natalie Morales]

Were you going to give us an or? Which. Which.

[Jon Lovett]

Nah, it doesn't matter. Let's see.

[Natalie Morales]

Oh, we don't get to answer that. Just you.

[Jon Lovett]

Well, I don't. I don't even. What do you want to say? We were just saying.

[Natalie Morales]

You were asking the question, weren't you? But what. Okay. All right. Low Rise Jeans is what I'll say.

[Jon Lovett]

Low Rise jeans. You don't like Low rise jeans?

[Natalie Morales]

No. That 1 inch zipper. Can't do that anymore.

[Jon Lovett]

Do you think RFK jr's meat would be better because he's free range, organic and unmedicated.

[Natalie Morales]

No, it's. It's full of worms.

[Emily St. James]

It is full of worms.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, that's Greg. No, he is full of worms.

[Natalie Morales]

Imagine if you had a cow and it mooed like RFK's voice. You'd be like, shoot, that one. That one's not healthy to eat. If that cow was like. You'd be like, that's not a good cat. Cow.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, that's a really important.

[Natalie Morales]

I'm a vegetarian. I don't. I don't eat animals, but, yeah, no, that's all bad. Let's put it this way. If my plane crashed with RFK Jr. I wouldn't eat them. I'd be scared. That would be worse for me, I think, than.

[Jon Lovett]

We wouldn't eat them first.

[Natalie Morales]

Like shrubs.

[Jon Lovett]

That's actually a good question, actually. Would you. Would you eat someone you loved who you know was healthier versus someone you hated who you think might have sicker meat? Eat.

[Natalie Morales]

Did they die first, or would I have to kill them?

[Jon Lovett]

No, they're just dying. You're not killing anybody.

[Natalie Morales]

They're dead.

[Jon Lovett]

They're dead. They're dead. They died in the crash.

[Emily St. James]

I think that I would eat the. I think I would eat the healthy person. Yeah, I don't want to get worms.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah.

[Emily St. James]

Thing.

[Natalie Morales]

I would eat the person also with like a. Like a good butt, you know, like. Like something that looked tasty.

[Jon Lovett]

Okay, where do you think?

[Natalie Morales]

Again, I don't eat meat. But.

[Jon Lovett]

But you'd have. But in this case, you might have to, I don't know, start with the quads, maybe.

[Natalie Morales]

No, the butt. I think we all start with the butt.

[Jon Lovett]

Right, But. All right.

[Natalie Morales]

The butt cheeks, obviously.

[Jon Lovett]

All right, who's starting with the butt?

[Natalie Morales]

Yeah, it's a plot.

[Jon Lovett]

It's a podcast, people.

[Natalie Morales]

Starting with the butt. Yeah.

[Jon Lovett]

Who's starting with the quads?

[Natalie Morales]

Quads.

[Jon Lovett]

It's a podcast.

[Natalie Morales]

That's so. It's so tough.

[Jon Lovett]

Okay, so. But quads. Other part of the body. What? Stomach? You're starting with the sweet breads, you freaks. You're starting with organ meat. Are you insane?

[Natalie Morales]

Yeah, that's nuts.

[Emily St. James]

It's. It. The answer. There is an answer to this, and it's the butt. Yeah, but you start. You start with I have. I.

[Natalie Morales]

She wrote for Yellow Joke.

[Emily St. James]

Work on a show where we research. You start with the but.

[Jon Lovett]

And how do you do research on this exactly?

[Natalie Morales]

Well, it seems the easiest also to, like, just bite into. Right, sure.

[Emily St. James]

So part. Like, part of the problem with cannibalism, if you. If you really want to get into it, is that the human body doesn't really have enough calories to keep you going, because it's already stuff that's in your body, so you're not really getting nutrients from it. So that's why often people who resort to cannibalism sort of slowly waste away. Now, in the movies and on tv, we exaggerate that because it's fun. But I mean, it's fun to imagine eating people, I guess. But, like, it's a taboo. Yeah, exactly. But like the Donner party or the Andes. Plane crash survivors, like, they were in very bad states of malnutrition.

[Natalie Morales]

Not to know.

[Emily St. James]

Not just because they had little tea, but because they were actively eating things that were making them less healthy.

[Jon Lovett]

Huh. Interesting.

[Emily St. James]

And also there's like, like, like pro cult Jacobs disease. I just mispronounced that. But it's like a thing that happens to your brain.

[Jon Lovett]

Crush feld disease.

[Emily St. James]

Yeah, it's a thing that can happen to your brain if you resort to human flesh.

[Natalie Morales]

You know, I feel like there was a lot.

[Jon Lovett]

Is there a Yakov in there?

[Natalie Morales]

I don't feel like there's a lot of cartoons when we were younger about cannibalism. People being cooked in a big soup pot. Like, like that was like always a thing that. Quicksand, right?

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, Quicksand and cannibalism, they loom large in the child's mind.

[Natalie Morales]

Yeah, it did for me.

[Emily St. James]

Cannibalism for, like, purposes of ritual and religious ritual has, like, always existed. It's this idea that you die, you have your plane crash and you're going to survive by eating people that. I should not say this because I write for yellow jackets and I want the show to continue running, but.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, and, and it's just something to think about now that the FAA is basically volunteer based.

[Natalie Morales]

Yeah.

[Jon Lovett]

All right, so that was high versus cannibalism, I guess.

[Natalie Morales]

Sure.

[Jon Lovett]

Sort of a loose show today. Any final thoughts in general?

[Emily St. James]

Buy my book. It's a good book. I'm just gonna keep pushing the book. That's what I'm doing this week.

[Jon Lovett]

Check out my dead friend Zoe with our live friend, Natalie Morales.

[Natalie Morales]

I am alive and it's in theaters. And I think it's a really good and funny movie. Please watch it. This is probably the last weekend it'll be in theaters because it's like a, you know, indie movie with a two week run. So go see.

[Jon Lovett]

Get in there.

[Natalie Morales]

Yeah.

[Jon Lovett]

While the getting's good. What do you do instead? Sit on your couch at home, watch something on your phone while also watching on something on television? You're fucking up your whole life.

[Natalie Morales]

Yes.

[Jon Lovett]

Slipping through your goddamn fingers. Every single one of you is wasting your lives. You're all wasting so much time. We're going to look back and think, my God, what we gave to these conglomerates, My God, we gave them our youth. My God, we gave them our attention for so many years until we figured out how to stop it by not having electricity anymore. After the troubles. After the Troubles in the late 2013s and the Sino American War of 2042. After that we fixed it. But until then we'll say we should have gone out and seen that movie. We should have read that book. And if there's nothing else you take from that show that you heard, then this one that's now see the movie.

[Emily St. James]

And read my book before you die. That's the message.

[Jon Lovett]

Emily St. James, Natalie Morales, thank you so much.

[Natalie Morales]

Thank you everybody.

[Jon Lovett]

That is our show. Thank you so much to our guests. I threw down the card that has the number of days until the midterms so they're coming. Have a great weekend. Leave It, Love it or Leave it is a crooked media production. It is written and produced by me, John Lovett and Lee Eisenberg. Kendra James is our executive producer, Bill McGrath is our producer and Kennedy Hill is our associate producer. Hallie Keifer is our head writer, Sarah Lazarus, Jocelyn Kaufman, Peter Miller, Elaine Pierre, Will Miles and Mohanad El Shegi are our writers. Evan Sutton is our editor, Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis provide audio support. Stephen Colon is our audio engineer and Milo Kim is our videographer. Our theme song is written and performed by Scher Scherr. Thanks to our designer Sammy Cadorna Reeves for creating and running all of our visuals, which you can't see because this is a podcast. And to our digital producers David Tolus, Claudia Sheng, Mia Kelman and Matt De Groot for filming and editing videos each week so youo can and our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America.

[Natalie Morales]

Easy.

[Unknown]

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[Jon Lovett]

Usaa.

[Natalie Morales]

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