Lovett or Leave It Presents: Bravo, America! (with John Cochran)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Lovett or Leave It Presents: Bravo America! (with John Cochran)

Podcast: Lovett or Leave It
Host: Jon Lovett (Crooked Media)
Guest: John Cochran (Survivor champion, TV writer)
Date: November 18, 2025

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Main Theme & Purpose

In this insightful and entertaining episode, Jon Lovett sits down with Survivor legend John Cochran to unpack the intersection of reality television and contemporary politics. They discuss how dynamics from shows like Survivor and Bravo's reality-TV universe have seeped into American political life, the evolution of reality TV casting and ethics, and Cochran’s own transformation from "bullied nerd" to celebrated Survivor champion. The episode explores social dynamics, underdog narratives, and the cultural zeitgeist through the lens of reality TV—with a special focus on how bullying, authenticity, and strategy translate between television and politics.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Survivor as a Microcosm for Society and Politics

• Lovett frames Survivor and reality TV as essential for understanding modern political theater:
  • “You cannot understand politics in this moment if you do not understand the dynamics of reality television...” (01:20)
• Politicians now emulate reality TV strategies, craving attention and spectacle, paralleling “throwing wine in someone’s face” Housewife drama.

2. Cochran’s Survivor Story: From Outcast to Winner

Early Struggles & First Season Experience

• Cochran’s Debut (S23):
  • Felt out of place as a superfan among “models and actors” (04:02).
  • Struggled to integrate socially; was anxious, “didn’t want to take my shirt off,” and became the scapegoat for his tribe’s failures.
  • “If Ozzy’s your captain, he’s all about challenge performance. I think it trickled down.” (09:54)
• The “Flip” and Fallout:
  • Cochran flipped on his original tribe due to sustained exclusion and was then subjected to overt hostility.
  • Lovett: “They were incredibly hostile to you in a way that was not strategic. They seemed to just viscerally dislike you.” (08:45)
  • Night vision footage showed tribe members calling him “disgusting” post-flip.

Bullying and Exclusion

• Lovett pushes Cochran to call out bullying:
  • “It did feel like high school and it did feel like bullying even before you flipped.” (11:35)
  • Cochran recalls humiliation with the chicken challenge, acknowledges “condescension,” but hesitates to label it bullying due to the game's inherently exclusionary structure (12:00–13:11).

Jewish Identity and Stereotypes

• Lovett connects Cochran’s outsider status to being Jewish and “a smart, anxious Jewish guy” not fitting the tribe’s WASPish norm (14:18).
  • “You were the Jewish person applying to the WASP Country Club... They were like, he just doesn't fit in.” (14:40)
  • Cochran agrees, noting the homogenous casting and stereotyping but remains self-deprecating.

Vitriol from the Tribe and Audience

• After flipping, harsh attacks:
  • “You’re a piece of shit coward. You’re a poor excuse for a man. Don’t fucking talk to me ever again.”—Ozzy (21:07)
  • “You’re a fucking piece of shit nerd.”—Jim (21:08)
• Cochran details lasting internet trolling, “ugly rat, coward”—often by Ozzy fans (22:08).

Season 26: Redemption and Victory

• Second Chance:
  • Cochran’s second season came months later—no “huge personal transformation” but a new group dynamic: “The big thing is like the people you get put with, I mean, that determines really everything.” (24:23)
  • Gained confidence, blended in better with a larger, friendlier cast.
• Perfect Game:
  • Won without receiving a single vote against him.
  • “You dominated that season. It’s a perfect season, right?” (23:59)
• Key Change:
  • Social environment and “slightly more confidence,” plus larger tribe sizes that allowed more flexibility (25:37).

3. Self-Perception, Bullying, and Survivor’s Evolution

• Enduring Self-Deprecation:

  • Despite winning, Cochran still defaults to self-doubt and self-mockery: “It’s a compulsion. If you get bullied, you make fun of yourself before anyone else has a chance...” (46:04)

• Lovett’s Mirror:

  • Lovett and Cochran compare notes as anxious, neurotic contestants, noting the spiraling self-blame of being the tribe outcast (26:54).

• Casting Shifts & Show Tone:

  • Early Survivors were “meaner”—with social bullying and unapologetic villains prized for drama.
  • “People now refer to that as the dark ages of the show...” Villains and bullying less tolerated; the show and fandom evolved to seek more compassionate casting. (17:56)
  • Modern seasons described as “front of the classroom kids” playing gently, compared to older "back of the classroom" chaos (39:45).

4. Reality TV’s Feedback Loop with Politics & Culture

• Villain Archetypes and Public Reception:

  • Modern culture demands less on-screen villainy, but the public will still “create a villain” (40:55).
  • Early villainy, like with Jerry Manthey, was often gendered and harshly received compared to today (“She didn’t do anything!” 41:59).

• Parallel to Politics:

  • Lovett: “Politicians... bring reality TV villain energy to Congress and the campaign trail.” (43:15)
  • Cochran observes that polarized politics mirror segregated Survivor alliances: “The lack of communication makes it very easy to project the most monstrous version of your opponent onto them...” (43:43)

• Team Sportification:

  • Both Survivor and politics have become more “team sport” oriented, leading to “villainization” and flattening of complex personalities to narrative archetypes (45:33, 49:18).

5. Audience Reception and Underdog Narratives

• Authenticity valued: viewers “want honesty.”
  • “If you’re messing up, then being able to course correct is kind of like a thing that's…I don't know. People don't like the seasons where you get locked into one thing.” (57:15)
• America loves an underdog: Cochran’s underdog status was both genuine (emotionally) and somewhat performative, even when he was dominating (59:49).

6. Survivor as a Cultural Antidote

• As the culture becomes meaner and more bullying, Survivor has paradoxically grown gentler and more wholesome.
• “Survivor right now feels like something of an antidote...It has become socially gentler.” (64:56)
  • Lovett highlights Probst's “unironic hard work” ethos as a nostalgic value, offering “a respite from toxic political culture” and space for “sincerity.” (66:20)
  • Cochran concurs: “That’s why I was drawn to reality TV in the first place… it is about stripping you down to your essentials and the vulnerability and the authenticity.” (66:41)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Political Parallels:
  • “They want to employ the strategies of a Bravo TV show to get attention in a body of 435 people and the way to do that is to pick a fight with someone and throw wine in their face.” – John Lovett (01:21)
• On Bullying:
  • “They were incredibly hostile to you in a way that was not strategic. They seemed to just viscerally dislike you.” – Lovett (08:45)
  • “Night vision footage of me being called disgusting…” – Cochran (09:17)
• On Jewish Outsider Status:
  • “You were the Jewish person applying to the WASP Country Club…” – Lovett (14:40)
• On Audience and Tribal Attacks:
  • “You’re a piece of shit coward. You’re a poor excuse for a man. Don’t fucking talk to me ever again.” – Ozzy/Jim, via Lovett (21:07-21:08)
• On Winning:
  • “You dominated that season. It’s a perfect season, right?” – Lovett (23:59)
• On Reality TV’s Impact:
  • “Even though the show’s now shifted… the public will identify a villain. They will create one in the absence of an explicit one.” – Cochran (40:55)
  • “In everyday life, there aren’t villains and heroes. Those are labels that reality TV puts on them. But those labels have kind of crossed out into politics…” – Cochran (49:18)
• On Survivor’s Place in Culture:
  • “Survivor...right now feels like something of a…antidote or kind of a contrary version of culture.” – Lovett (64:56)
  • “That’s why I was drawn to reality TV in the first place...the vulnerability and the authenticity.” – Cochran (66:41)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:20 – The politics-reality TV crossover intro
• 04:02–08:42 – Cochran’s first Survivor season: feeling like an outsider
• 09:17–14:18 – Discussion of bullying, condescension, and Jewish identity
• 21:07–22:08 – Post-flip tribe vitriol and ongoing internet harassment
• 23:59–25:37 – Winning Survivor: personal transformation vs. cast dynamics
• 35:02–37:32 – The evolution of superfans and the changing Survivor game
• 40:55–45:33 – Modern audiences “creating villains” and team sport politics
• 49:18–50:56 – Reality TV strategies and the flattening of personalities in politics
• 64:56–67:41 – Survivor as a gentler alternative to a meaner political culture and hunger for sincerity

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Takeaways for Non-Listeners

• The episode offers a deep-dive into how reality television, once dismissed as low culture, has become a template for understanding American political life—especially the valorization of drama, attention-seeking, and villain/hero archetypes.
• Cochran’s journey illustrates that social dynamics and group composition often outweigh personal change or merit, and that outsider energy and underdog perseverance—especially when handled with humor and vulnerability—can capture the public’s imagination.
• Survivor’s narrative has paralleled cultural shifts: from celebrating brash villainy to emphasizing compassion and nuance, acting as a mirror and, lately, a corrective to America’s “meaner” societal trends.
• Lovett and Cochran’s candid, neurotic banter underscores the enduring power of authenticity (and self-deprecation) in a world where surface charisma, bullying, and strategic villainy can quickly eclipse quieter forms of strength.

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Summary by AI Podcast Summarizer—capturing the laughs, the neuroses, and the serious cultural conversation beneath the surface of this lively conversation between Jon Lovett and John Cochran.

Transcript

[John Lovett]

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[John Cochran]

Or Love it or Leave it.

[John Lovett]

Hey everybody. Welcome back to Love it or Leave it presents Bravo America I'm sitting down with some of my favorite personalities from reality TV because you cann understand politics in this moment. If you do not understand the dynamics of reality television, take a listen to how Congresswoman Sarah McBride put it on Pod Save America earlier this year. Some of my colleagues are treating me the way they are treating me for for a couple of reasons. One, it's because they want attention, right? They want to employ the strategies of a Bravo TV show to get attention in a body of 435 people and the way to do that is to pick a fight with someone and throw wine in their face. Today I'm joined by Survivor's John Cochran. He made his debut in season 23 and then he came back to win in season 26. Jeff Probst has called him one of, if not his favorite Survivor competitors because of his unlikely comeback story as a scrappy, self deprecating nerd who overcame the odds on the island. We dig into Cochran's experience being bullied, though he questions the term in his first run and how he's able to understand a control light dynamic in his second season on the show and win. We also talked about the ways in which Survivor has evolved alongside our culture. And as politics become more mean and toxic and bullying, Survivor has become more sincere and almost a bit more wholesome. It was a great conversation. I loved getting to talk to John Cochran about Survivor, reality tv, what it says about our politics. So here's my conversation with John Cochran. John Cochran, thanks for being here.

[John Cochran]

Thank you so much for having me.

[John Lovett]

So you hold this historic place in Survivor lore because you're on two seasons and in your first season you were kind of put upon. You were, I think, buffeted by events. You tried to make the best of it. You got a lot of shit from people on your tribe and then you come back three seasons later and you have one of the greatest runs in Survivor history. Do you agree with that?

[John Cochran]

I mean, that's a very kind, mythological way of putting it. I, I felt the first time that I was kind of, it was a self fulfilling prophecy that people were. I was, I went in with so much insecurity that it was kind of the fact that people didn't respond well to me. I can also kind of blame myself.

[John Lovett]

See, I thought you might say something like that. So let's, I want to get into this. So just.

[John Cochran]

Okay, sorry. No, no, no.

[John Lovett]

You see, you're already apologizing. Don't apologize. I want to talk about your evolution between the two seasons because I do think there's something about what happened to you that speaks to something larger about reality television. But for people that aren't familiar, what is your story of what happened the first time you were on Survivor?

[John Cochran]

So the first time, I mean, I went onto the show during an era of the show when derisively referred to it as being populated by actors. A lot of models and actors on the show that hadn't necessarily seen Survivor before weren't super passionate about it, whereas I had been this big, nutty super fan that wrote a paper about it in law school and used to hand out newsletters and wore memorabilia to school. So when I got to the island, I think I had all this theoretical knowledge of what I was supposed to do, but disregarded the fact that it's fundamentally a social experience. And if the people that I'm with don't respond well to me and I don't respond well to them, that all the knowledge about what day to play an Idol, when a merge is going to happen, it means nothing if they don't want to sit and just have a conversation with you. So I think that first time Sorry if I'm going on too long. You can call me off at any point.

[John Lovett]

You're not going on too long.

[John Cochran]

We had our tribe captain. It was returning players on each team. And our captain, my captain, was Ozzy, who's this physical beast, maybe the best challenge competitive game's ever seen. He can climb coconut trees effortlessly. He can dive into the ocean with a spear and come up with fish. But I think by having him be the tribe captain, that kind of set the value system for the group. And so it's like, if you're on the Aussie tribe, you better be good at challenges. You better be kind of like a cool, social person. And I didn't fit into that. I was kind of the nervous guy that's like, I didn't want to take off my shirt. The first moment on the first episode, Ozzy was like, hey, let's all get in our underwear and go to the ocean and bond. And I had watched the show before. I felt like there was like at least an hour where you're standing around the beach talking to each other and collecting wood. This is like, no. Immediately get in your underwear and go into the ocean. And so that was like, just initially, I didn't want to take off my shirt right away, so. And I think that probably was not the best introduction to my tribemates, who were all having fun in the ocean, making a spectacle of myself over my discomfort, and then just it progressed. I was not super well integrated in my tribe. And then there came a point around halfway through the season when there's a merge and I was getting votes at, like, every single Tribal Council, which is. Even though when you're watching the show, you're like, oh, that was last week's episode. But when you're out there, it's like, oh, no. That was like last night, and I just had to go to bed with these people that, like, just voted me off, and those things accumulate. So that by the time the merge arrived, there was a part of me that's like, I should just jump to the other side. Why am I sticking with this team that keeps trying to vote me off and convincing Ozzie to go home or stay instead of me? I don't know. So I jump sides. And if you're an Ozzy fan at home, that was, like, a very disappointing moment for the season because it kind of put a. You know, blew up his plans, and I don't know, then I. Then I pretty quickly got voted off after flipping. It didn't work out for me strategically. I didn't integrate into the new tribe as well as I was hoping I would. It was a very religious. It was an unusual group of players that I think historically there hasn't been that tight knit of a group. I feel like usually you'd be able to find the people on the bottom of the pecking order and maybe find some fluidity there, but it was really this impenetrable group. And I just got kicked off a couple weeks after flipping.

[John Lovett]

So I would like to show the picture of you once you did take your shirt off. I think this captures what happened to you in that season kind of metaphorically. Can we show that picture?

[John Cochran]

That's the second time, actually.

[John Lovett]

Is that from the second season?

[John Cochran]

Yeah, yeah. The sunburn was the second season.

[John Lovett]

Oh my God. That's your second run of it. Well, I actually think it applies better to what happened to your first season. God damn it. What the. What? This is your second season and this happened to you. What happened? Why did you put sunscreen on? What was going on in your mind? You're a smart guy. What the fuck was this?

[John Cochran]

This is so bad. I thought I was just about to have an encouraging speech, so. Well, I get burnt very, very easily. I'm a redheaded guy. I'm very vulnerable. And there is sunscreen available off camera. So I can't blame the show and say we didn't have access to it. The problem is that the first. This is like the first episode of my second season. Right when you arrive on camp, we went to a water wrestling challenge. So all the sunscreen I had on me washed off immediately because we were fighting around in the ocean. And then they did this very scenic pirate ship ride to camp that didn't even make the episode. We just sat in the ocean for like three hours waiting for helicopters to come film us. And it was during that time where for continuity purposes, I was like, oh, I should probably just keep on my sweater vest. But I should have just put on all my shirts and covered my skin. But then I got back and I had an inverted sweater vest of, you know, very pale sweater vest shape on my chest and then red everywhere else. The weird thing is I'd kind of. At the time I was like, oh, I'm gonna be medically evacuated. Cause they brought in doctors and everything. And my.

[John Lovett]

It was that bad?

[John Cochran]

Yeah, my feet got too swollen to wear shoes, so I had to wear Brenda's flip flops cause they were the only open footed footwear available. I was kind of convincing myself, like, maybe this will be funny cause I was already, like, thinking, like, I'm going home. And this is at least an anecdote. Like the nerdy sunburn guy got medically evacuated for it. But it weirdly, I think strategically was maybe helpful. Not that I was already like a threat coming in, but it definitely neutralized any threatening qualities of me. Of like, oh, there's the guy that I was not even allowed to leave the shelter for a couple of days because they didn't want me in the sun. So. And those are critical days at the beginning of the season where everyone's kind of coupling off. But let's just say that maybe it's strategically worked out in the long run, even though physically it's very painful because.

[John Lovett]

He didn't seem like a threat at the beginning of that season.

[John Cochran]

Yeah, it's like a wounded bird kind of.

[John Lovett]

So back to the season with where you. Your first season. So I want to try to get at this because. Which is you talk about how, oh, you know, you didn't really gel with your tribe at first, and then you flipped sides because they were. You never really felt like you belonged in that group and you'd been getting votes. It was much worse than that. They were incredibly hostile to you in a way that was not strategic. They seemed to just viscerally dislike you.

[John Cochran]

Yeah. After a flipping, definitely. I mean, there was like a big reaction to me after flipping where they were yelling at me. And yeah, there's like, they even showed you an Emmys, like, most outrageous moments in reality of the year. And there's just night vision footage of me being called disgusting, like doing a little, like, clip reel. But before that, it was more. I think it was more. That was very. And during that era of the show, tribal strength and performance and challenges was a huge priority. And I would get so nervous in these competitions, and then I would come back and be apologizing. I'm sorry I got nervous there. And I think that just added to my reputation as the guy that, like, if we lose, it's his fault. So there's probably just. And if Ozzy's your captain, he's like all about challenge performance. I think it trickled down.

[John Lovett]

Yeah. You're still blaming yourself for it. So they didn't like you, and that's a flaw. Like, you have great qualities. Right. And so they're not liking you is not a reflection on you, although in some sense, of course it has to be. But it's also a reflection of. On them. Right. Because you come back and win the next time you're on the show. So clearly that was in you. They didn't like you because you're a smart, anxious Jewish guy. Right. I mean part of this is on them Jewish. Well, part of it. The qualities that go along with that were not qualities that they appreciated.

[John Cochran]

And internally, when you're trying to live on an island and there's limited resources and there's lots of stress and physical reliance, like probably the anxious guy that do anything physical that's mainly there to be like, maybe there's going to be an endurance challenge next. Isn't that helpful? Because that was my main contribution was trying to decode tree mail, which I don't know, didn't endear me that much to them.

[John Lovett]

You're still doing it.

[John Cochran]

I'm also one of like, I don't know, it's ancient history with them and we're all kind of on good terms.

[John Lovett]

And like why I care about that. Look, I am sure that you have your relate.

[John Cochran]

This is.

[John Lovett]

How many years ago was Your first appearance?

[John Cochran]

14 years ago.

[John Lovett]

14 years ago. This is not a judgment of where they came and how you think of them Now. I think it's okay to. While acknowledging that these are full fledged human, complicated human beings that you've. You're relate. You've talked about it since you've evolved since. I want to talk about what happened while you were there because in watching it, there is a way in which you were isolated from the very beginning that felt like.

[John Cochran]

Yes.

[John Lovett]

It didn't feel like it was part of the game. It didn't feel like they were casting you out strategically. It felt like you were. It felt like high school and it did feel like bullying even before you flipped. And I wonder if you, you, you've been reluctant to acknowledge that in the past, but like you were bullied before you flipped.

[John Cochran]

There was definitely like a lot of condescension. There was one thing that was like very unpleasant where like I'm a big animal guy and they showed this in like the extra clip scene. But like, I didn't want to. I didn't want to deal with the chicken having its head cut off. But like Ozzy was very insistent that I had to hold the chicken while the head was cut off because it would be like some growth experience for me. And then like I'm holding it and then they cut the hen off and I don't, I'm just keeping. I'm still holding it because I don't like, I don't know what to do in that case. It's flapping around like, as. As it does. And they started like, Ozzy and the guys were laughing at me. They said it looked like I was having sex with a dead chicken because I didn't want to let go of it because I was afraid it was going to happen. And it's like it was already a slightly upsetting experience than to have it. That was the one thing I was like, oh, that's like, I don't feel too bad if I write down somebody's name tonight. But bullying, it's tough to say. I'm just reluctant to that because I. I don't know. It's the. Why it's such a contrived environment that it's like, usually in our everyday life, it's not. I'm gonna. You don't get to just eliminate someone. So, like, bullying. Not bullying, but, like, exclusion's built into the game. It's a game of musical chairs. And can you sit with us and can you not? So, like, the fact that I was one of the people that didn't have a seat for a while, I can't completely blame them. But I don't know. We just didn't. Personally, I'm sure I was like, I said that maybe we got oral herpes from one of the competition challenges that we did. Like, that was probably a weird thing to say that turned some people off.

[John Lovett]

Well, yeah, that's a great example. So you made a joke. That was a joke that you made. That was a very kind of. I remember that moment being, oh, my God. That's the kind of joke that I would make because it's like a little bit, like, outrageous. And you're saying something that's, like, about something gross.

[John Cochran]

We're not actually attention diffusing kind of thing.

[John Lovett]

Right, right. And it is received so poorly by this group of people that don't appreciate your humor. They're like, that's. That's a. That's their mistake. Right. To not appreciate that. Right. Do you see it that way? Like, you don't, but this is what I'm saying. Like, this is what's so interesting about how you talk about this, which is, like, these people were assholes to you from the jump. They were condescending. They were dismissive of you. They didn't like you personally. It was a very high school thing. I do think that part of it. Part of it is that you are like, there's a ways in which people brought, like, a kind of stereotype about Jews to this. I'm sorry, but that is present. And, like, I want you to acknowledge that like that's something that they were doing, not something you were doing.

[John Cochran]

No, for sure. I agree that there was like I was not entirely to blame for every dynamic I had out there. I can't read their minds of what the, what their motives were.

[John Lovett]

I'm not saying motives and I'm not, and I'm not implying I have no idea what their mentality was. I'm saying that as someone who watched it, what I observed was you were the Jewish person applying to the WASP Country Club is what it seemed like. And they were like, he just doesn't fit in.

[John Cochran]

I definitely felt like I didn't fit in. I mean that was my first thing I said is with the 902 Ono Tribune. I was one of the zeros on it. And it felt like that was maybe even a deliberate casting thing of like if you looked at the line of people it looked like Melrose Place and then you know, some Big bang theory or something. It was, it felt like, oh, let's see how this guy functions in this. But maybe that's me giving myself too much credit. Maybe they were not focused on that but sorry, what was the question?

[John Lovett]

It's that like they were bullying you over and over and it was nothing that you did wrong.

[John Cochran]

Well, look, they kept voting for me. It's hard to say that. It was just we didn't. I mean people say the second time that I was slightly bullish. I made fun of people in some of the interviews and I feel a certain level of guilt over that. I mean, oh my God, I know.

[John Lovett]

I'm more evil, but so, but I'll let it go.

[John Cochran]

No, but I'm happy to like unpack it with you.

[John Lovett]

Here's the thing that I like when I remember watching this, I remember thinking, God, what a sad way in which to see Ozzy. Ozzy was one of the great players, a beloved figure. He's an asshole to you and to like there's a cockiness and an arrogance and a mean spiritedness to how you are treated that is not part of the game. They could have been very kind to you and voted you off. Like you were mistreated in a way that is a strategic and like this is a game and always fair in the game. And my, my view of it has always been that like lying, backstabbing, all of that completely justified and completely moral. But people, and this is, I think in the, in the years since you played I think there's been an ethical evolution in Survivor which is people used to bring their outside morals into it. But those outside morals are part of a plus, like a positive sum game where cooperation leads to a better world. But in this game, cooperate conflict is only one prize. Right. And so you don't have to bring those. Those ethical questions. I think you can put aside and say it's all part of the game. But that is up until someone is inside of the game needlessly cruel or mean spirited in a way that is not strategic or purposeful or part of the game. I think Russell would do that at times as one of the great villains. But I think in this season, like, there is a hostility and a meanness towards you that just felt gratuitous and almost fun for the people that weren't you.

[John Cochran]

Yeah, obviously I think there's a certain level of self entitlement. It was his third time playing, so it's like, why isn't everyone listening to me? Like, of course I'm gonna be the person that everyone defers to. So the fact that I was kind of anyone that didn't fall into line, I think he was probably. He was not gonna be on the greatest terms with. Yeah, I don't know. But I think it's also. That's the dark I was on season 23 and 26. People now refer to that as the dark ages of the show. It was like a different mentality. I mean, there's been a big discourse online about villains and whether that's something we want on the show. I think then people more leaned into slightly more conflict and combustibility because it was what people liked on reality tv, whereas now that's not sustainable with reality or with social media quite as much. So I think. I mean, I've met people from the new era. I don't know if they're necessarily all as equally compassionate to each other. I think it's just kind of that the show is emphasizing that it's still a game of like, we don't want you here anymore. And even though we've been living together, you're gone. And that hurts.

[John Lovett]

Regardless, we're gonna hold there for a second. We'll be right back. Hey, don't go anywhere.

[John Cochran]

There's more of Love it or leave it coming up.

[John Lovett]

Love it or Leave it is brought to you by aura frames. What's your favorite holiday tradition? Who started it? How long has it been going? And do you have photos of it? I have a holiday tradition for you. It involved three wise men heading towards Bethlehem and. No, there are no photos.

[John Cochran]

Who started it? The big guy?

[John Lovett]

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[John Cochran]

They got one at the Favreau household.

[John Lovett]

Yeah, the Favreau household, meaning my parents. Right? And they're just kind of. All the memories are in there.

[John Cochran]

I take a picture, it's on my phone, and then I go to the Aura app and I'm just like, boom. Suddenly they got it on their frame.

[John Lovett]

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[John Lovett]

What's interesting is you flip tribes. You just abandoned this team, which was a great decision. It was hard to imagine it working out to you winning once you've done that. But like of course I think this gets at to me why I'm like interested in this a little bit because. So they're treating you like dog. You flip on them. They are. They're treating you like Shit, they're voting for you. You flip on them. They are so angry at you in a way that is not justified. Right. And also not. They're not thoughtful at all about it. Right. They are lashing out at you as if it isn't a game and as if they. As if the way they were treating you didn't happen. That. That to me is what I find so galling about it. Some quotes about. Some quotes about what is said about you after. That's how a wiener plays. You're a piece of shit coward. You're a poor excuse for a man. Don't fucking talk to me ever again. That's Ozzy.

[John Cochran]

Some of those are Jim, I think.

[John Lovett]

Oh, no, this one's Jim. You're a fucking piece of shit nerd. You realize Keith and I saved you three times and this is what you fucking do. You disgust me. You're a rat.

[John Cochran]

Yeah.

[John Lovett]

No, you weren't. No, you weren't. You weren't. That is not true.

[John Cochran]

Right, right. I wasn't a rat. I mean, I think they were just frustrated, feeling like their game was over at that point. And. Yeah, no, that was the. That was the low point of the entire thing. I was legitimately, like kind of freaked out and it was like pitch black outside. So I was just like these screaming voices at you in the aftermath of tribal council and you have to go to bed, you have to like lie down on the ground with these people and ostensibly function in this little society again. No, I wasn't a rat. I get a lot of rat. I feel like people. If you're a little scrawny guy, there's certain lingo that I feel like rat. I would get a lot online. I still get. I still get messages about like, ugly rat, coward, poor excuse of a man thing. So those things have stuck around. But I think people are discovering that seasons over, the pandemic and beyond, so it's always a new little batch of.

[John Lovett]

People siding with these bullies or they love Ozzy.

[John Cochran]

The sense I get is that it's just like you're watching the show and you want Ozzy to do well. And if this little guy that's not good at the challenges screws him over, then you ruin the season for me. I'm not saying that's a rational response, but I feel like that's. I'm actually on okay terms with Ozzy. That's also part of my reluctance with, like. I don't have any ill will towards any of these people.

[John Lovett]

And I just want to say that I'M pushing on that. You're not bringing. I'm. You're not revisiting this. I'm revisiting this. Cause I'm. You may be on good terms with these people, but this is what.

[John Cochran]

That was super upsetting. That was like. Yeah.

[John Lovett]

And I like. And I'm not. Again, I'm not putting this on anyone individually and I'm not suggesting that I know anyone's motivations. I just. Because I consumed a bunch of these seasons from the middle run of the show at once. And there is something that happens with a certain kind of smart, nerdy player, often a Jewish player, which is that they are scheming. This happens to Penner.

[John Cochran]

Penner's the big one.

[John Lovett]

This happens to a number of Jewish smart players that all of a sudden there's just this, oh, you can't trust him. They're schemers, kind of a rat.

[John Cochran]

I mean, my whole demeanor might be contributing to that beyond just the fact that my mom's Jewish. I mean, I'm like a nervous guy that's hunched over and I don't know. I think. I don't know why I'm turning into this, like, this is self degradation thing.

[John Lovett]

You're. This is what, like. Okay, so this is how you. I'm like bringing him up. But this is like, interesting to me because I feel like this is part of your. So this is. You're even. You're closing in. You're kind of. Now you're back. So now we're in the mentality of season 23. You're apologizing for. Apologizing for. Apologizing. Okay. Then you come back. Right?

[John Cochran]

Right.

[John Lovett]

You do get destroyed by the sun within minutes of arriving on the beach, which I think is a nadir in that season for you because you then go on one of the best runs in Survivor ever. You dominated that season. It's a perfect season. Right. You didn't receive a single vote, is that right?

[John Cochran]

Yeah, One of two people. That's right.

[John Lovett]

So what changed?

[John Cochran]

Well, it was only the next summer, so it wasn't as though, like, even though it was three seasons apart, it was literally a few months after the season stopped filming. So it wasn't like I didn't undergo a huge personal transformation or certainly physical transformation. The big thing is like the people you get put with, I mean, that determines really everything. And it's not the most glamorous answer, but there's a lot of variability in how you perform based on what group you're put with. I also think going back There's a huge different mentality shift. I was so nervous the first time. Just like it's very vulnerable. I was just a student that had very little exposure to any outdoorsy stuff or socializing. Then suddenly there's camera crew and there's a Miss America runner up and a retired cop and you're in a bamboo shelter together and it's just like very overwhelming. Whereas the second time, a lot of that luster kind of is gone. You know, more just like I want to win. I didn't just want to be a big character. I was like, I want to play the game that I'd loved a long time. And then just the people are more receptive to me. I had several people from my first season on there and then just like it's a Survivor social circle. I met Andrea was somebody that I was friendly with, but it was also just a nice mix of people. I think was better. Like that first time just felt like a very homogenous tribe that I was put in and I was kind of one of the group of misfits that I can kind of blend in and out of. And I like that it's a big tribe. It was 10 people. I know you had a six person tribe. I need the big tribe to be able to kind of like have some hiding room.

[John Lovett]

I feel like you and I had a similar early experience. Like you were able to survive early because it's bigger tribes. Totally. And I like, there was just nowhere for me to go and I like, I don't. My group was not hostile at all, but they were. I was very different from my group and there was just very little space. Especially once there had been sort of the. Kind of. Especially once there had been the kind of like crazy moment and the breakdown and sort of the things sort of. I sort of lost control very quickly, but I did feel the same kind of feeling of like, I don't know, there's something about being an anxious, smart person that once the. Once the avalanche starts, you know, you're kind of. You're sort of a passenger of like being unable to kind of contain it and kind of do breezy. You don't do like, it's hard to. Once you feel. I feel like that's, I think, something that we have in common because I think once you felt like you were losing them, you go into a kind of spiraling. Yeah, it's interesting. So you think the difference between the first season, season which you were kind of maligned and called a rat and disgusting and the season where you won. The main difference, given that it was only a summer later, has nothing to do with you, that it was the.

[John Cochran]

Mix of people and an attitude shift. I mean, I was definitely. I think it hardens you. Like, being on these shows, you get a lot of. I was very nervous at first about how people were gonna respond to me just being. Making fun of what I look like or what I sound like. And you get. So it's like a focus group testing on who you are as a person when you're on these shows and you get tons of feedback and you have to figure out which ones to incorporate and which ones to ignore, but it does kind of give you thicker skin. So I think the second time I was slightly. I had a little bit of a shield of armor and a little bit more confidence. Just like, not the uncertainty is the scariest part. I feel like the first time when you're flying out there and you don't know who you're going to be with, you go through the casting process for the returning player seasons, you see who's going to be there. So it's already a slightly more comfortable thing. But, yeah, I don't know. I mean, I did better in challenges, for instance, the second time, which, like. Yeah, you did, but I think that was just a comfort level thing as opposed to, like, I didn't practice balancing or lifting things or, I mean, I want a gross food eating challenge and stuff, but it was more about just being calm with the circumstances. I wish I had a better, like, transformation explanation, but I think it was more the people and being open to meeting them. I think the first one was also kind of like trying to shoehorn my strategies into other people's polls. Whereas it's like you have to find. Yeah, you have to find common ground and maybe, you know, give it a little bit if you want to get something.

[John Lovett]

Yeah. I feel like now you were a superfan at a time when that really wasn't part of the show. Like, it was like you were on with people that were just doing it and figuring out as they went, but you had come with a lot of plans, but you really never got to put them into fruition at all. It wasn't like you tried your various ideas for what Survivor could be. You like, kind of, you took your first punch and then that was out the window. You were just trying to hang on.

[John Cochran]

And then very quickly I was like the alter. Once you become the other option for who to vote off at every Tribal Council, it's hard to kind of like cement yourself as a serious strategic source of information. Because it's just like, oh, we'll tell so and so that we're voting for you. But it's actually gonna be so and so. But you never do that to the person that you actually like respect their place in the game. Cause if that person plays an idol, then the person that they're saying, I don't know, it just. It was an insecure mind frame I was in the whole time. So, yeah, it wasn't. There's never anything. I was like, here's what we're doing. Next tribal council, I give you the idol, you vote for so and so. And magic's gonna happen. Watch the fireworks. It was like just me going like, it's not gonna be me this week. Quite right. Please don't vote for me. Like, don't vote for me. Which when I got home, it was a little bit of a. I took a semester off from law school because I was like very nervous about watching that show. I was kind of dreading how it was going to come across.

[John Lovett]

How did it feel watching it?

[John Cochran]

I did not. I don't like watching it. Like, the fun part is being on it. Even the misery, it's the deprivation you're signing up for and the testing your limits afterwards. It's no longer your story. And it's. Even though I love all the production, they do it very faithfully and accurately. But it's just like hearing your voice on an answering machine. But it's like way worse because, you know, 10 million people are hearing that voice on the answering machine and they can say what they think about you. And it's also, there's. You're haven't bathed in a month and you're wearing a little outfit that they told you to wear with a red sweater vest and a pink button down shirt. And it's like everything was just. I didn't really do viewing parties that season because I was like, this is just going to be a source of stress more than anything. I would feel sick on Wednesday nights and then would stay up all night just reading every single. The next day I would just be reading every single comment on every website.

[John Lovett]

I felt I really wasn't thinking about what it would be like to air when I went, which I think is the right thing to do. I was just thinking about. And I had the same, like having watched a lot of reality television of all kinds, my general feeling is that there is an ethic to how Survivor is made that actually doesn't apply to basically any other reality show. And so I was very comfortable kind of pushing my chips forward and letting the edit fall where it may. I'm just sort of trusting the ledger of it to be fair. But then I remember the dread. Well, first of all, of course, cause I knew I was gonna be voted out, but the dread of watching it, I was like, you know what? Given how nervous this feeling is, I would rather have gone home first than third, fourth or fifth. Though of course I would have rather gone home much later too. Do you think I should do it again? Do you think that I. You've watched. Look, you and I, you made it further in your first out, first season through. But I think the thrust of the experience you like, I think that your first season confirms some of your fears about how you would be received.

[John Cochran]

Oh, 100%.

[John Lovett]

Yeah. And I. And I feel like that isn't exactly true for me other than just going home first, which is an interesting worst case scenario. But I feel like I never really got, like I never really got purchased. Like I told Jeff when I met Jeff, I'm either gonna go home, I'm make it all the way or I'm gonna go home first. And I just sort of caught the bad steer. But do you think I should do it again?

[John Cochran]

Do you want to do it again?

[John Lovett]

I don't know. What do you think? Do you think I should do it again?

[John Cochran]

I think you have to want to. I think it's something you don't want to do. It's going to end up being a negative experience because it's like such an intense thing. But if you want to do it also, you have only upside. It's going to go better this next time. But I do it. I know.

[John Lovett]

Well, there's, you know, there's Francesca and.

[John Cochran]

I was unfortunately part of that. I'm not proud of that.

[John Lovett]

What was that like, by the way?

[John Cochran]

Oh, God. This is like judging of all these painful memories.

[John Lovett]

Painful?

[John Cochran]

No, that one's like not a fun one. Because I was friendly with her, that I thought this woman Jane was going to be out there from Nicaragua. And it ended up being dawn who ended up being my closest ally. I thought we were going to go out of Jane first because I was like, oh, I don't think. I don't know if people know her.

[John Lovett]

I don't know.

[John Cochran]

It ended up being dawn out there who was my closest ally. Then the vote ended up coming down to Francesca versus Andrea, who I looked at Tupola was actually friendliest with. It was kind of the worst case scenario for a first vote out for me. But I was closer with Andrea and I don't know, I think they had this built in tension between Philip and Francesca, which they, you know, that was probably what they were hoping for, some sort of, not necessarily exactly what happened, just some kind of rekindling that feud. But that was not fun. It's not fun. It's like a painful game where, like it's a fun TV show, but when you're out there, you feel a lot of guilt because you realize, oh, I'm gonna see this person afterwards and we're gonna be talking and we have mutual friends. And that's part of the reason I don't go back. Because it's like you hurt a lot of people's feelings and you can't control how you come across. And I don't know, I feel guilty about that. Even though things turned out well and I won, that doesn't say it isn't accompanied by some little elements of I wish things had been different.

[John Lovett]

But yeah, we're gonna take a quick break. We'll be right back. Hey, don't go anywhere.

[John Cochran]

There's more of Love it or Leave it coming up.

[John Lovett]

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[John Cochran]

Well listen up America Carnival is here.

[John Lovett]

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[John Cochran]

Ships registry the Bahamas in Panama.

[John Lovett]

What's interesting is you were a person who understood and really had paid attention to Survivor. You were, I think, one of, if not the first player to kind of really bring that kind of fan energy. Now that's a big part of what Survivor has become and actually it's the evolution. A lot of reality shows have now gone and this is true of competition shows and it's also true of Real Housewives that the first couple seasons these are people trying to be themselves or play the game, whatever that means. And then as you get further along, people come on the show having become fans of the show and that changes the show. And I'm curious what that's been like for you to watch as more and more people come to it with a similar knowledge that you had.

[John Cochran]

I mean, I think it's fun to watch. Just even having met the most recent cast, I feel like I get along with them more. It's like, oh, this is like everyone's very nice and compassionate and smart and I mean, I understand there's some frustration like we want more, more people that don't know the games. There's a mix of people that are inept versus strong players. But I think that if you got that in reality, it might be. I watch a lot of Big Brother too, and there are frequently people on Big Brother that have no idea what's going on. It's a greater source of frustration than entertainment to watch on the show. So I kind of like having a lot of people that know what's going on. The game's gotten so much more complex now that I feel like you almost kind of have to have people that are able to roll with the punches and do the different twists and everything. But I enjoy it. I mean, the show's had to evolve. I rewatched some of the early, I rewatched Marquesis over the pandemic and it was a super fun season, but I don't think if it aired now that it would capture the viewers in the same way.

[John Lovett]

Yeah, there are a lot of people that are critical of the new seasons of Survivor because of all the kind of the more complex rules around Idols and challenges and immunity. But they are kind of will. They're kind of forgetting that some of the early seasons of Survivor they're quite boring because a lot of it was foregone. They were trying to generate drama, but there was foregone conclusions. I mean, there were seasons like before Idols. I mean, it was just sort of like. And just. You're just sort of. It's more about the survival and the social dynamic. But often that was predictable. And so this does add a level of kind of intrigue and complexity and change that I do think is good for the game. But then I do think it's harder for players. Like, I think I like. I think I'm constitutionally more kind of suited to a slower version of the game.

[John Cochran]

No, I feel. I'm curious what you felt, but the 39 days set up. The one big difference I feel like is we'd have these off days where nothing happens. Usually the busy days, you have a challenge or you maybe have a tribal council and you have to be transported there and you have to wait around a little bit and there's lots of activity and it feels like you're going on a field trip. But the days where you have nothing going on and you don't even get told nothing's going on, you're kind of like waiting to find out. Maybe we're gonna get tree mail. Maybe this is an exciting day. And then gradually the realization sets in like, oh, no, I'm just stuck with these people sitting around not eating for another 24 hours. Those days, actually, if there's anything I was good at Survivor, I think I was actually probably good at those days. Cause it's like I wasn't getting into fights and I was kind of an easy, low key presence that if other people were having tension, they might decompress with me afterwards. I don't operate well in the high activity days where it's like, hey, grab you in the woods. This is what we're gonna do. I kind of go into my shell and that coupled with the smaller tribes, I feel like I would struggle. I would have a harder time with the new setup. That's not to say I don't like it, but it's definitely a different game. The small tribes in particular. Imagine if you had three or four other people on your tribe, it would have been a completely different experience.

[John Lovett]

Well, it was also, I think with six, there's only so many combinations and once it was two, two, two, you very quickly run out of room to operate. My only. Yeah, I mean, just there was no. Because, you know, as, you know, like right before Tribal Council, there's a ton of machinations and talking and groups forming and they can't show all of that. But, man, I was hustling to try to put something together. My only regret of the whole thing is. Cause I was doing the math in my head before the vote, which is I was like, I think I got like a. I thought my chances of making it out of the vote were roughly the same as the chances of rolling a die. I thought it was roughly the same and I thought, all right, should I just say fuck it and do the shot in the dark? But then I really had like, well, but if I spend this vote on the shot in the dark, and that's what sends me home. It was sort of tough. It was a tough calm.

[John Cochran]

I can understand the first tribal not wanting to use the shot in the dark, but I do like that twist. That's actually one of the new era twists that I do like as a little escape hatch and create some uncertainty. You can't tell people that you're gonna like, forces blindsides.

[John Lovett]

Yes. I think it's much rougher for the player mentality, but I think it's probably ultimately good for the game. So one thing that's also happened is Survivor has moved away from the villains. It's just, it's. And it's interesting you say it. Cause I do think having now spent time with a lot of the new era players myself, it does feel a lot of, like, front of the classroom kids. And Survivor used to be a lot more about the back of the classroom kids versus the front of the classroom kids. And you happen to be on a tribe with five back of the classroom kids, which really screwed you. But there's not the same amount of, like, bullying and harshness. But what's interesting about that is as Survivor I think has become socially gentler and physically more kind of aggressive, like our culture has become, like, kind of overrun by bullies. It feels as though you're, you know, in your season, like, it feels as though your tribe ultimately wins in the culture fight. And I'm like wondering if, like just sort of in a politics dominated by bullying. If you've, like, thought about how, like, your experience with Survivor, what You notice about in the commonalities with how bullying plays out in politics.

[John Cochran]

Boy, that's interesting. I mean, I think that's interesting with the, like, the villain aspect of everything is there used to be, like, explicit villains. They'd be burning socks or throwing out your food or saying really cruel things. But even though the show's now shifted, I think Jeff's even said we're kind of steering away from casting villains. It's not our priority anymore because of the cultural bullying and stuff. The public will identify a villain. They will create one in the absence of an explicit one. They'll find the person that is either don't like their voice enough, or I watch Jeopardy. A lot. People are cruel to like how contestants hold the buzzers. They'll find anything that they don't like, and that's enough of a justification for that to be the person that they hate. Even this current season, I've seen people say these mean. It's like, if you watched reality TV from 20 years ago, this would not even be a blip on the, like, radar of bad behavior. But it's actually kind of full circle. But like, season two, it's kind of going full circle with, like, Jerry Manthey. She's the original villainess of all time, but you look at her sins. Did she criticize how Rice was made and that got her booed off the stage in Madison Square Garden and made fun of in a scary movie franchise? It's insane.

[John Lovett]

It's insane. It's actually like, it's a. It's a good. Like, if you go back and watch those seasons and the way that they were received, it actually speaks to how much the culture has shifted. You can't watch it through early 2000s eyes because 20 years ago, there was such a hostility towards a woman like Jerry that, like, inside of the show, the edit presumes the audience is seeing what that, like, can you believe this bitch? And it's like, she didn't do anything. She didn't do anything.

[John Cochran]

She's the sweetest. If you remember, she's, like, so unbelievably kind and sweet. And the fact that she was the person that was, like, picked out as the first villain of reality tv. And it's even kind of like with Parvi, like, I feel like her reputation's changed. Like, in the old days, she was really torn apart. And you can see there's been a shift in the conversation. But now that's actually a celebrated personality instead of, like, we hate the strong woman.

[John Lovett]

That's strategizing yeah, well, like we talked to the. I talked to Parvati about that and, you know, she kind of ultimately embraces this kind of villain archetype that she's meant to be playing and she just continues doing it now. It becomes beloved. But so there's the ways in which people that weren't villains were treated as such because they were just being tough and not, I don't know, handsome guys, basically. But then at the same time, you have the ways in which reality TV villains, politicians have learned from reality TV villains and now bring that energy to politics. And I'm just wondering if when you watch some of the ways in which Trump bullies people, the ways in which in Congress you have these sort of brawls and committee hearings, if it doesn't feel a little bit like they're playing kind of, I don't know, old school Survivor.

[John Cochran]

I think that Yul Kwon, the Survivor winner from Cook Island, I was his legal internal a million years ago at the FCC and before I went on Survivor, I talk to him about the, you know, what I should be expecting. And one thing he talked about as a piece of advice was like, there are going to be times when you might be in an alliance that end up not even happening the first time. But he's like, you might be in an alliance and you're going to be like a group of people sitting over here and there's going to be another alliance sitting like 15ft away. He's like, don't. He's like, allow yourself to be the guy that's capable of going back and forth between the groups, like communicate with the other. Because there's a tendency and I experienced and I participated in it. You'd literally be sitting 15ft away but, like, you'd be assuming the worst about that other group. Even though I'm sure their conversation actually probably wasn't that different from yours. You're probably talking about what food you missed from home just because you were assigned different color buffs on day one. It's like, oh, I hate that person. I want them out of here. I don't want to see their face. But Yul's like, given the unpredictability of the game, I'm kind of paraphrasing what I said, but given the unpredictability of the game, there might be a time when it swaps around and the person you're sitting 15ft away from might be able to be your ally. You might have to play an idol with them or you might have to coordinate a vote with them. So let's just say that the bullying of the other eyes and I think is something that I've noticed. It's like the lack of communication makes it very easy to project the most monstrous version of your opponent onto them and then that's what you're responding to and then any sort of discourse is impossible. So that then you can just flip, try. Then it's just like that's when you have a very non fluid season of Survivor. I feel like that's the old era. It's like blue states and red, blue buffs and red buffs. There's no intermingling. Whereas now it's, you know, voting blocks and if there's a shuffle and I think that's a healthy thing. But I guess I kind of didn't completely answer your question about villains, but just I think one of the things just not the idea of the team sportification of politics has created villains because you want to root against somebody even though that's not what we're, you know, why is that what we're doing?

[John Lovett]

Yeah, there's also, I think there's, I think your instinct when people were kind of isolating you is to be self deprecating, right. Almost to like if someone throws a punch at you, kind of like grab the fist and kind of pull it in and that didn't seem to work. And I'm wondering like in between your two seasons, like did you find yourself trying to avoid doing the self deprecating thing because it just doesn't work or what?

[John Cochran]

Well, it's a compulsion. Like it's not me being like, this will be an endearing thing right now. If I like say something embarrassing and make a spectacle of how bad I am at something that's just like a lifelong. If you get bullied and you want to, you make fun of yourself before anybody else has a chance to say the thing. And I'm way better at it than you are, so just listen to me. But I definitely, the second time there was. It's also just like an attention. It's like nobody wants somebody talking about that. Everyone's like the star of the season out there. Everyone wants to be. This is their story. I'm going to be getting all the great confessionals. So when you have one guy that's like, oh, look at me, I can't open a Coke and can somebody help me with a suntan lotion, it's like, all right, we're all out here. Why are you prioritizing your. We're all uncomfortable. We're all feeling discomfort and yet just prioritizing other people. I mean, because that's like you're still. I was still uncomfortable and I was still freaked out, but just not. I would save it for the confessionals. Honestly, like that's kind of the therapy session that you get where you don't have to. We can be super vulnerable. And there's. Isn't that subtext of deception or trying to woo people like there is whenever you're around camp. So that's when I would, you know, really, if I were being self deprecating. But it wasn't a deliberate thing. It's honest. Even during this interview when I do it, I'm not like, oh, this is gonna be a little funny thing or something or it's gonna make people endear. It's like, no, I'll listen back to this and I'll be mortified. I'm sure.

[John Lovett]

It's so exciting to me. It is just honestly, it is so rare to me to be in a conversation where someone is more this way than I am. It's actually like I'm just sitting here like, I mean this is extraordinary. This is the thing. It's just to see someone take what I do to its logical conclusion is so exciting and it is charming. That's why, I mean, you did win your season. Cause you have charisma, you have charm. Right. You know that. Can you compliment yourself ever?

[John Cochran]

Well, I don't think it was because of self deprecating stuff.

[John Lovett]

No, I know. I'm saying it was because of the good qualities. You don't, you don't. I don't know what the opposite of self bragging. I suppose you don't brag about it, but like you're a very smart, charming, funny person.

[John Cochran]

Thank you. I don't seek out social stuff, but I get along with people pretty well. That was kind of why I applied for the show. Like, I don't. Like I'm kind of a shut in. Like I almost never hang out with people, but even in school I'd always be able to get along with people from different social groups like the jocks or the valley girl. And it wasn't Valley girls, but the nerds. So even though I wasn't their favorite person, you don't have to be anyone's favorite person. Just like somebody that they like getting along with usually vote off the favorite person because they're a threat to win. So it's just kind of being like an even keeled person that isn't a source of drama. I thought I did a good job at final Tribal Council. That's the one thing where I do pat myself on the back.

[John Lovett]

You crush.

[John Cochran]

Yeah, I had a lot of pressure. I put pressure on myself because of law school and stuff. But yeah, I don't know. What was the question? How did I transfer?

[John Lovett]

I don't remember what the question was.

[John Cochran]

Yeah, saying that I was better the second time. Thank you.

[John Lovett]

And then I'm just. Do you notice Survivor when you watch the ways in which politics has become a lot more personality driven and there is a lot more kind of Survivor like qualities to the way people treat politics. Now I'm wondering if you ever are watching a debate, a campaign and think, man, this reminds me of what it was like when I was on Survivor.

[John Cochran]

I mean, you can't help watch the big primaries with all the people trying to vie for votes and the gradual elimination. It's very reality TV coded. And the best presidential debates are like the best final Tribal Councils. And I feel, and I listen to the podcast with poverty and she commented on like authenticity, I think being one of the core, I think that's consistent across reality TV and politics, that people that at least are able to put on the illusion of authenticity will be a lot more effective than people that don't. And self awareness, knowing your strengths and weaknesses. And the question was, when I see politics, gosh, I mean, the fact that our presence, reality tv, for another Mark Burnett acolyte, it's like it's inescapable. His whole dialogue of good guys and bad guys and shut up and I don't want to talk, it's inescapable. I don't know. I don't know if it's a good thing. Honestly. I think it's. I think it's a terrible thing. Yeah, it's a very reductive thing. In everyday life, there aren't villains and heroes. Those are labels that reality TV puts on them. But those labels have kind of crossed out into politics and flattened people into these identities. Just like a reality TV ad, it can kind of make you be like, oh, I'm just the nerd. That's the self deprecating stuff. Yeah, I don't know. It's a bleak thing. I definitely do watch with Yo Kwon. I asked him whether he would consider politics because watching him I always thought like, oh, he's a smart guy. He'd worked for Senator Lieberman and he worked for Google and McKinsey and it was incredible back on Yale and Stanford. But he said that he wouldn't he said he wouldn't be able to. His personality type isn't good for governing or. No, he'd be good at governing but not campaigning. But just like it's a completely different skill set. So maybe the reality TV skill set is better for campaigning.

[John Lovett]

Yeah, maybe so.

[John Cochran]

Just the TV show aspect of. But I don't know.

[John Lovett]

It's interesting because Yul. Yul is one of the greatest players and similar, I think, similar to you in a sense of being like strategic, very intelligent. But I wonder if you feel this too, that there was a kind of self discipline around his own emotions that I think is sort of not something either of us could replicate.

[John Cochran]

Oh, no. I mean, I saw myself in certain aspects of him that he was like a bookish guy that clearly took this game very seriously. But no, he is like cool as a cucumber and can be very clinical with how he deals with game stuff. Whereas I'm an emotional anxious mess. And if he is, he doesn't betray it, at least outwardly. And I think it's interesting. It's like a. I think it actually cut against him the second time. The first time I think it helped and the second time I think there was more like emotional bonding over, you know, families at edge of extinction and he less got into that. So, yeah, I just say I agree with you. I think, yeah, you should talk to him.

[John Lovett]

I should talk to you all. I would like to talk to you. He's very smart. We're gonna take a quick break. We'll be right back. Kate, don't go anywhere.

[John Cochran]

There's more of Love it or leave it coming up.

[John Lovett]

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[John Cochran]

I mean, multiple times a week. I don't wanna make it sound like I'm constantly being flooded with stuff, but it's like every time I'll check that little hidden Instagram section. Like the hidden DM things. It's never a good thing. Yeah, don't go in there. And I got one recently actually. I don't wanna give voice to the DMs. Cause then they'll be like, oh, he read this specific one. It was a wounded dumb.

[John Lovett]

Yeah, don't feed the trolls. They got you. They got you.

[John Cochran]

There's some very specific ones. I mean sometimes the generic ones that are like you're an ugly co. Do you do that to Ozzy or it's a rigged season. Hate you. Whichever. I've heard that so many times. It certainly this sounded like somebody that knows me. Neither me.

[John Lovett]

Let's get at that for a second. You're sitting because it is like the criticism that you agree with that hit or like you can you. That that's. That feels like something you'd say to yourself that like hits the hardest. And I'm curious like when you get like when you think about your experience on Survivor, like what is the self criticism that still gets to you?

[John Cochran]

Oh, so many things. I mean like tons of things. I don't like that. I feel like I especially the second time, the way you were describing the bullies the first time in a small way, I feel like, oh, did I turn into a bully the second time with when I was kind of mocking people in interviews part of that was like, it's a conversation with producers, you know, trying to make them laugh. And it's like a.

[John Lovett]

And that's where you vent.

[John Cochran]

That's where I. Yeah. And that's also like, I figured that's what I'm getting put on the show for. Like, I'm not doing anything during challenges that's particularly impressive. I'm not causing any blowups at camp. It's like, no, that's just where I clock in and I say my wacky things and I go back to camp and do nothing. But. So I felt guilt about that just because I know that's also my reluctance about commenting about other players online because I know how unpleasant it is to be on the show. And so to contribute, to use whatever little platform I have to add onto that and be like, oh, I hate this person, or I'm not enjoying or even just saying I'm glad this person survived implies that you were happy the other person got voted off. I get so in my head about that. So when I replay stuff I said on the show about being happy for voting somebody off or making fun of them, I feel. Cause I just know that they're watching that episode with their family. Like, it's easy when you're saying it on the aisle and it's like, okay, whatever. Caught in this moment. Then you wait a year and it's like, oh, they're maybe doing a viewing party. And I was kind of a guy that was like a trustworthy narrator. So if I'm making fun of you, it's kind of the endorsement of the.

[John Lovett]

Show, saying you're the voice of the show.

[John Cochran]

Yeah. So I feel guilt about that. I mean, I don't like what I look like. I mean, this is just general embarrassment of, like, appearance and demeanor and. But it's just mainly stuff saying about other people. I'm fine making fun of myself. I do that all the time. And I make fun of other people too. But I don't want to be, you know, I don't want it to be a public record that then identifies their experience and then like, they feel bad for a long time. Not saying that they feel bad, but this is the sort of thing that I worry about. But then, yeah, the other Chris, like, Christians, there's a rigged season and stuff. I don't really care a lot of the criticisms about my gameplay. I don't really care about saying, look, I'm not a good winner. I'm a bottom tier winner on a bad season that nobody should watch. I don't know, I'm. I'm at peace with that.

[John Lovett]

You've said you don't want to do it again, you're kind of out. But, like, in having the two different experiences you've had on Survivor and the two different ways it was received, like, what did it teach you about what the audience appreciates or doesn't appreciate about competition? Like, what did it show you about the way America views what happens when someone like you either does poorly or does well?

[John Cochran]

Well, it spoke to, like, the different value systems that people bring to the show when they're watching. I mean, even when you meet people, some people watch it just for the challenges. Like, they fast forward through everything else, which is unfathomable to me. But so, like, so if you prioritize that and you see me the first season and I'm the reason we're losing challenges and I'm on a tribe with Ozzy, a lot of those people hated me, and they'd come up to me like, oh, he loved you the second time you started winning all these challenges. But, like, that's not even a thing I care about. That's not a. I mean, it's a fun thing. It was a fun thing to win challenges. That's not my value system. I think a big thing. I mean, Parvati touched on it, but I just think authenticity and vulnerability is, like, what people are looking for when things are going bad on the show. Be vulnerable. Don't be saying, oh, I'm gonna figure this out. This is gonna be great. I got it all covered. They want honesty, and if you're messing up, then being able to course correct is kind of like a thing that's. I don't know. People don't like the seasons where you just get locked into one thing. I know, but the motives and incentives for the viewership are different from the players. Like, the viewers want an exciting season of lots of blindsides and idols being played and people whispering during tribal council, which is not necessarily what makes for the most stable game. I don't know. I feel like I'm not giving a good answer to this one. I'm freaking out. Gonna spiral over this. Text my mom afterwards. Oh, no.

[John Lovett]

To that.

[John Cochran]

Okay. She wants to have the link to this when I'm done, though.

[John Lovett]

Okay. We will get this episode to your mother.

[John Cochran]

Okay. What did I learn about what the viewers like out of this? I know. Well, viewers like different things. Some people hate me. Some people like me. Some people, they prioritize the people. Like, a lot of people love Austin Rob, who Insists on a buddy system, doesn't let you talk to people and tells you how to vote. That's not how I operate. But it's just nice seeing how it's interesting how people latch onto different aspects of it. I don't know, it was. There was a big split in how people reacted to me the second time, which is kind of almost like makes you a little cynical because I don't feel like I changed that that much but like, oh, like I won a gross food eating challenge and now I'm deserving of respect. I don't know. It's like, well, it's, it's.

[John Lovett]

People want. It's complicated. Right? Because with, with Boston Rob, it's a little bit like he's a bully you root for.

[John Cochran]

Yeah. He's a charming guy and charismatic and.

[John Lovett]

People like a bully that they can root for, which does apply in politics. Right. That somebody who is dominating but also can get people behind them is a very powerful thing for you in your season. You're an underdog people can root for, but yet you're dominating the whole way through. So were you ever actually an underdog or is that just your energy? Do you have underdog energy?

[John Cochran]

I've done a perpetual underdog energy. I mean just very structurally. I was on the favorites tribe the second time with a big numbers advantage going into the merge. I think just cause I'm a scrawny guy that's wearing a funny little too big for me button down shirt and khakis and stuff. It like oozes like oh, he's. This is hard for. I'm not good at the challenges, like just anything physical.

[John Lovett]

But you won a challenge your season. You did.

[John Cochran]

I won three individuals, individual opportunities.

[John Lovett]

Physically. You won a physical one.

[John Cochran]

Yeah, but I also had like advantages. There's a little asterisks believe I get.

[John Lovett]

Reminded, oh my God, you won't take the fucking compliment. So in your season it was two returning players, Ozzy and Coach, who were kind of the captains of their team. Ozzy, we talked about, coach created this oddly kind of spiritual, religious tribes really. What a weird fucking season that was. But they're both coming back for 50 and I wonder if you have thoughts about that, like what do you expect from an Aussie and a coach this many years on?

[John Cochran]

That's maybe the dynamic. Cause I played with them. That's maybe the dynamic I got most excited about. Cause they like. I don't think they like each other or at least historically they didn't. I feel like this is also old ancient History. Maybe they've completely moved on, but I feel like at the time it was Coach slightly felt like Ozzie was responsible for coach not winning final tribal council because Ozzie kind of came into Ponderosa and was like, don't vote for Coach. He's a bad guy and everything. So there's this lingering ill will towards him. There were two returning players. I think that also kind of added to the competitive thing, like, oh, you did better than I did. And so I'll be curious to see whether there's any lingering resentment or whether, you know, the fact that they know each other, that theoretically could be a reason to get together. They're part of the same. I don't know if they're the same age range exactly, but the same era of the show. And I don't know. I mean, honestly, the thing is, I'll be curious whether there's a new incarnation of him. I feel like the first. I feel like that first version of him was so wonderful and then. I don't know. I don't like something bad about it. I'm already, like, self editing and, like, freaking out about what I'm saying.

[John Lovett]

Can I. Can I take a shot at it? He was the golden boy of Survivor, this incredibly beloved figure, and he tarnished that by being a fucking asshole. And maybe this is his chance to kind of. Because he never wins, right? He never wins.

[John Cochran]

No. That first time was the closest. Even the time I was on, he got very close to his final four. But that first time against Yule was like such a good. It was the ultimate strength performer versus the ultimate strategist. And it was like a 43 vote or it was a very, very close vote, I think, which almost never happens now. But he would have won South Pacific had he won the final immunity challenge.

[John Lovett]

That's the thing. The whole thing was set up for him to, like, he had such a redemption island.

[John Cochran]

The whole. That whole thing was so structured for.

[John Lovett]

Him and it didn't happen for him. So I feel like this is his chance. But I do think, like, I wonder. I wonder. You can downplay it all you want and blame yourself, but I feel like there's gotta be a residue from the kind of haughtiness that he brought to the season with you that he'd want to come.

[John Cochran]

I thought you were saying hottie and.

[John Lovett]

Like h o t. No, I wasn't saying that. I wasn't saying I could. I could. So as somebody who was a super fan of Survivors, kind of a student of the game, kind of. Last question. How do you think about the way Survivor has changed as sort of our pop culture has changed since you and I both watched the first season live in 2000? Not together, we were strangers. But still.

[John Cochran]

Yeah, spiritually. Watched it together. I feel like. I mean, at the very beginning, it was like the wild west of television. I remember there being ambiguity about whether the people were gonna die on the show. The way they were promoting. It's like we're taking 16Americans one by one. They're not getting any food, and there's gonna be one person. Person left. And then they went. It seemed like Lord of the Flies. And they were really leaning into the, like, torture aspect of it. I mean, it was kind of also around the same time as Fear Factor. It's like more eating bugs and seeing bug bites and people really struggling and burning themselves. And then there's been. I don't know. It's funny. I feel like when society is more. This is shooting at big brush strokes, but, like, when there's more compassionate, the reality TV is a little bit more sinister and then vice versa. I feel like right now, like, with the political climate and the culture and conversation so toxic that it's almost kind of like Survivor. It's not true of all reality shows, certainly, but, like, so I was kind of doing a public service of like, let's give you a little bit of a sanctuary from this dialogue. Even though it is still a game of deception and betrayal and paranoia and voting and everything. But I feel like now there's been an emphasis on more compassion and even just humanizing the contestants. Like, some people don't like the little flashbacks where they go to a thing and say, oh, I grew up and this is what my parents were doing and everything. But it is nice to know. It reminds you that especially in the age of social media where people are so inclined to just dehumanize you and send you the most hateful stuff, it is a nice reminder, like, oh, this is a person that's going home to their life and family when this is over. But I feel like maybe when, because we get so much. If you turn on CNN, you're getting the most. You're getting the 2000 version of reality TV, of all the people with the wounds and the bug bites. And so it's kind of like we don't need that anymore. Maybe if it swings back, we'll be craving, you know, more Hunger Games style reality tv. But I feel like, oh, there's House of Villains, though. There are shows that lean into villain stuff. Do you feel like, there's been an overall, like, change in the tone of reality tv. I'm so focused on Survivor that I'm slightly less aware of, like, what Real Housewives is doing.

[John Lovett]

I think on Survivor, I think a lot of reality shows reflect the culture. I think that Survivor, you're right now feels like something of a. Of an antidote or kind of contrary version of culture. And I think you're right. It has become socially gentler. But there's also something about the way in which Jeff, as someone who just believes in earnest striving and unironic hard work. Right. And I do think, like, yes, there's a way in which toxic politics leads people to want a more wholesome experience, but also ironic culture and the ways in which everything is mediated and even hard work itself is sort of diminished, that there's still this kind of place where that's how you do it on Survivor. Like, at the end of the day, whatever is happening, like, striving and fighting, like, unironically, kind of even to the point of sapping your own dignity, is, like, still a value. And I think that. I think people are. It's both a respite from the toxic political culture, but also a place where people can kind of sink into some unironic, earnest, like, kind of competition for its own sake.

[John Cochran]

No, that's a great call. I've never even considered that. But you're right. People make fun of prop's, like, sincerity in those moments. But I actually think that is a nice. Yeah, I. I don't like when there's. Every. So often there's one contestant that seems a little too cool for school or ironic about it. I never like it. That's. That's not what Survivor's for. It is about, like, stripping you down to your essentials and the vulnerability and the authenticity.

[John Lovett]

And I think.

[John Cochran]

I think that's. You don't get that in anything else. That's why. That's why I was trying to reality TV in the first place. That's actually kind of why I'm less into, like, Traders and stuff, because I feel like it becomes a career reality TV person that's curated this Persona and it's no longer. It's kind of like an actor at that point, not saying they're acting, but, like, I used to love game shows just because I liked seeing the fleeting, real interactions of, like, the couples on Newlywed Game or on Family Feud, the tension between the families. And imagine what the car ride home is like or in Jeopardy, just like the interviews with Alex Trebek was always funny to me and I feel like Survivor took that and expanded out to this extreme, you know, hour long adventure and that's what I'm craving. Yeah. Not iron. Yeah, the lack of iron. I never thought of that. That's really cool. No, I think that's right.

[John Lovett]

It is. It is sort of like a hunger for sincerity.

[John Cochran]

Yeah.

[John Lovett]

So maybe the goal here is to get to a point where Survivor is a brutal and mean spirited slog again, in which sweet, smart Jewish nerds are kind of destroyed before us because that would mean our politics had gotten wholesome. And that's a beautiful place to leave it.

[John Cochran]

I love that.

[John Lovett]

John Cochran, thank you so much. It was so great for talking to you.

[John Cochran]

My pleasure. Thank you.

[John Lovett]

If you're already scrolling endlessly, which we know you are, don't forget to follow us at Crooked media on Instagram, TikTok and all the other ones for original content, community events and more. You can also find Love it or leave it on YouTube for videos of your favorite segments and other YouTube exclusive content. And if you want to sing our praises or rip us a new one, please drop us a review. Finally, if you want to listen to Love it or Leave it ad free and get access to exclusive shows, go to crooked.com friends to subscribe on Supercast, Substack, YouTube or Apple Podcasts. Wherever you are, you can find us Love it or Leave it is a Crooked Media production. It is written and produced by me, John Lovett and Lee Eisenberg. Kendra James is our executive producer. Bill McGrath and Caroline Reston are our producers and Kennedy Hill is our associate producer. Hallie Keefer is our head writer. Sarah Lazarus, Jocelyn Coffin, Peter Miller, Alan Pierre and Subha Agarwal are our writers. Jordan Kanter is our editor. Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis provide audio support. Stephen Colon is our audio engineer. Our theme song is written and performed by. Sure, sure. Thanks to our designer, Sammy Cadorna Reeves for creating and running all of our visuals, which you can't see because this is a podcast. And to our digital producers, David Toles, Claudia Shang, Mia Kelman, Delon Villanueva and Rachel Gajewski for filming and editing video each week so you can. Our head of production is Matt De Groat and our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of Americ.

[John Cochran]

It's love it or leave it.

[Laci Mosley]

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[John Lovett]

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