LSE IQ Podcast Episode Summary: "How can we solve the gender pay gap?"

Released: September 3, 2024
Host: Anna Bevan, London School of Economics and Political Science

Overview

This episode probes the persistent issue of the gender pay gap, asking why, after significant legal and social advances, women still earn on average less than men, and what can be done to close the gap. Featuring insights from broadcaster Jane Garvey, economist Nina Roussille, and LSE professor Camille Landais, the discussion explores key factors—from workplace transparency and negotiation disparities to deep-rooted societal and gender norms—with a focus on actionable solutions for real change.

1. The BBC Gender Pay Gap and Public Accountability

Jane Garvey’s Experience at the BBC

• Jane Garvey shares her personal story of discovering she was paid less than male colleagues while presenting the iconic Woman’s Hour:
  • Quote [00:01]: "I felt a pratt and I felt that I'd been stitched up. But then I realised, of course, this is a much wider problem. It wasn't just about me... it was about women's contributions to the BBC being undervalued and underrated." – Jane Garvey
• Pay transparency laws in the UK (from 2017) led the BBC to publish its gender pay gap data, revealing men earned 9% more on average.
• Memorable Moment [02:15]: "I was quoted by the Daily Mirror as being incandescent with rage... It felt like a physical pain." – Jane Garvey
• A coalition of over 40 women at the BBC campaigned for equal pay; notably, most male colleagues, including those famous for challenging authority, stayed silent.
  • Quote [03:47]: "Very few men spoke up for us... when it came to having a word with their own employer... they didn't do anything." – Jane Garvey
• Despite successful high-profile lobbying (Jane personally received a substantial pay raise), systemic change has proven slow due to lack of strong enforcement in reporting and minimal consequences for corporate non-compliance.

2. The “Ask Gap” – Negotiation, Information, and Pay Transparency

Nina Roussille’s Research

• Nina Roussille (MIT economist and LSE’s Hub for Equal Representation) introduces the concept of the “ask gap”—the difference between what men and women request when negotiating salaries.
• Key Insight [07:46]: On a hiring platform in Silicon Valley, women with comparable CVs asked for 3% less than men; for those with 15+ years’ experience, the gap reached almost 6%.
  • Quote [07:46]: "Women are asking for around 3% less... That gets us close to $5,000... more experienced women... gap goes... above the $10,000 bar." – Nina Roussille
• When the hiring platform introduced a suggested median salary tailored to candidate profiles, the ask gap disappeared and so did the pay gap in offers.
  • Quote [09:54]: "Post this reform, the gender gap between men and women in ask salary went to zero. And... the gap in offers also went to zero." – Nina Roussille
• Conclusion: The pay gap was primarily due to information deficits—women lacked accessible benchmarks due to gendered professional networks.

The Push for Salary Transparency

• Roussille notes that new laws in the US and Europe are making salary ranges mandatory in job postings, with potential to erode wage ambiguity and its gendered consequences.
• Quote [11:52]: "Transparency is very interesting because that's a broader policy topic... that's very much at the forefront..." – Nina Roussille

Early Origins of Gender Differences

• The roots of divergence start early—women are steered toward lower-paid majors through societal biases, not “natural” preference.
  • Quote [12:48]: "Selecting into sounds like... it's purely their choice... it's an entire gender norm construct..." – Nina Roussille
• Roussille calls for intervention against classroom bias as early as preschool.

3. The “Child Penalty” – Motherhood, Careers, and Deeply Set Norms

Camille Landais on Work and Parenthood

• Professor Camille Landais (LSE) describes the “child penalty”—the persistent negative impact having children has on women’s pay, careers, and quality of life.
  • Quote [15:45]: "Women are never going to recover from the arrival of kids... a massive impact... not on men." – Camille Landais
• Data from 134 countries confirm the universality and persistence of this effect:
  • Women reduce work hours or change jobs after childbirth; men’s work lives remain unaffected.
  • This division persists even when women are the higher earners.
  • Quote [18:03]: "There is something deeper about the way we believe our gender identity and our gender roles form." – Camille Landais
• The penalty extends beyond work into housework, leisure, and mental health, with women experiencing less sleep and more stress post-children.

Rethinking Parental Leave and Social Norms

• In countries with more equitable parental leave, same-sex female couples share childcare almost perfectly; two-father households mostly outsource care.
• Flexibility alone is insufficient if social norms allocate carework to women:
  • Quote [22:35]: "If you want to address the child penalty, you need to address the unequal burden of care... That totally changes views in terms of what type of actions you want to take." – Camille Landais
• Laws that grant women more leave than men entrench these social expectations.
• Responsibility and Policy [24:25]: Landais urges collective action—educational, policy, and household changes—to make real progress.
  • Quote [24:25]: "We collectively have not only the power, but the responsibility to do that for our kids... Change is possible. It's just a question of willingness to make it happen..." – Camille Landais

4. Solutions: Multi-Pronged, Early-Stage, and Societal

Tackling Deep-Rooted Norms and Valuing Women’s Work

• Multi-layered Approach: Both Roussille and Landais stress the solution is multifaceted:

  • Salary transparency and information access
  • Policy reforms to parental leave
  • Cultural and educational shifts, starting from early childhood
  • Societal revaluation of professions traditionally seen as “women’s work”

• Quote [26:42]: "It's a multi pronged approach... the root cause? It is those, those gender norms... trying to research to what extent are they malleable and can we change them? I think is really important." – Nina Roussille

Revaluing Essential Roles

• Garvey highlights the failure to adequately value socially essential jobs often held by women:
  • Quote [26:49]: "... carers, for example, people who work in social care, do one of the most important jobs in our society, but they aren't valued financially in the same way as a man who can fix your electrics..." – Jane Garvey
• She evokes the need to begin these conversations in primary school, challenging ideas of which jobs are “for” men and “for” women.

5. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Jane Garvey’s emotional reckoning with her own BBC pay gap [02:15]
• The impact of pay transparency on both salary expectations and actual offers [09:54]
• Landais on socialization of gender roles starting from early childhood [18:03], and on the need for social willpower and policy [24:25]

6. Key Timestamps

• 00:01-02:15 – Jane Garvey’s personal account of the pay gap at the BBC
• 06:47-09:54 – Nina Roussille explains the "ask gap" and her research findings
• 12:48-14:18 – Early educational differences and occupational sorting by gender
• 15:45-16:51 – Camille Landais on the “child penalty” across global data
• 20:57-22:17 – Insights from same-sex couples on division of childcare
• 22:35-24:25 – Landais’s argument for collective, systemic change
• 26:49-28:09 – Jane Garvey on revaluing women’s work and challenging primary school norms

7. Conclusion

Despite legal progress and growing awareness, the gender pay gap endures due to structural inequities, information gaps, entrenched gender roles, and the persistent "child penalty." Solutions require coordinated reforms in policy, education, the workplace, and social attitudes from early childhood onwards. Above all, it will take collective willpower, prioritization, and persistent advocacy to make equal pay a lived reality.