Podcast Summary

Episode Overview

Podcast: LSE Public Lectures and Events
Episode: Cloning Wild Life: Zoos, Captivity, and the Future of Endangered Animals
Date: November 12, 2013
Host: LSE Film and Audio Team
Speakers: Dr. Carrie Friese (Main Speaker, Author), Dr. Carys Thompson (Discussant), Prof. Judy Wajcman (Chair), Dr. Sarah Franklin (Audience Commentator), and others

This episode centers on Dr. Carrie Friese's ground-breaking book "Cloning Wild Life: Zoos, Captivity, and the Future of Endangered Animals." The panel discusses the complexities of cloning endangered animals in zoos, examining how biotechnology is shaping the future of species conservation, reframing our understanding of 'nature,' and provoking ethical debate about captivity, care, and the politics of reproduction.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Background and Central Arguments

• Biotechnology’s Role in Conservation:
  Dr. Friese’s book explores how cloning has entered the conservation toolkit, particularly in zoos, and argues that cloned endangered animals represent different "imaginaries" of how nature might be preserved on a human-shaped planet.
  • Quote: “Cloned endangered animals thus provide a window into how nature is being reproduced and transformed within a contemporary milieu that is marked by the joint processes of technological innovation and environmental crisis.” (07:20, Friese)
• Notable Early Cloning Experiment:
  The birth (and early death) of Noah, a cloned endangered Gaur in Iowa in 2000, illustrates both the promise and controversy of such interventions.
• Three Types of Cloning Projects:
  Dr. Friese identifies distinct logics:
  • Technology Development: Proof-of-concept, ‘making animals through technology’—e.g., Gaur, African wildcat, sand cat projects.
  • Genetic Management: Enhancing the genetic diversity of captive populations—e.g., the San Diego Zoo’s Banteng project.
  • Basic Science/Biological Diversity: Using cloning as a model system to probe fundamental developmental and ecological questions—e.g., cloning frogs as researched by Bill Holt in London.

2. Technological Optimism vs. Ethical Debate (12:18 – 16:00)

• Technological Fixes and Human Ingenuity:
  Proponents see cloning as a technological solution to problems exacerbated by human activity, considering it unethical not to deploy available techniques to save species.
  • Quote: “It would be unethical to not use cloning in order to save endangered wildlife.” (16:22, Friese paraphrasing a technology developer)
• Critiques within the Conservation Community:
  Cloning is contentious, particularly where the experiment’s value does not align with contemporary conservation practices (e.g., using non-genetically valuable animals), and over publicizing cloned animals.
• Changing Definitions of 'Nature':
  The manipulation and display of animals in zoos have evolved over time, both in physical infrastructure (from cages to immersion exhibits) and in the ways animals are ‘collected’—now including reproductive technologies and cryopreservation.

3. The Zoo as a Laboratory for New Conservation Practices (20:15 – 29:30)

• Species Survival Plans (SSPs) and Frozen Zoos:
  • SSPs selectively breed captive animals to maintain genetic diversity, while 'frozen zoos' store cryopreserved cells.
  • Cloning enables lost genetic diversity to be restored without recapturing wild animals, making the zoo a potential backup for vanishing species.
• Space-saving Technology:
  Cloning is viewed as a way to maximize biodiversity with minimal spatial requirements (“Cryopreserved cells take up very little space…” 24:18, Friese).

4. Complexity of 'Value' and 'Wildness' (47:10 – 50:00)

• Which Species Deserve Cloning?
  The value ascribed to animals is culturally and historically situated (e.g., charismatic mammals like cats vs. frogs or insects).
  • Quote: “How do people decide that something is worth conserving?...If it was raised in a zoo…is it still wild? So this concept of wild that's in your title and echoes through the book is incredibly important.” (48:10, Thompson)
• Notion of ‘Wild’ vs. Captive:
  Questions raised about what qualifies as a truly 'wild' animal, especially as cloning, habitat loss, and semi-domestication blur boundaries.

5. Care, Reproduction and the Limits of Biotechnology (59:07 – 63:15)

• Beyond Biology: The Centrality of Care:
  The conversation highlights that success in reproduction, for both humans and animals, relies on extensive care work, not just technical achievement.
  • Quote: “Most of reproduction isn't biological...it will die unless it’s properly looked after, which has, in fact, happened to some of the…” (59:07, Franklin)
• Failures Attributed Incorrectly:
  Some cloned animals did not die due to cloning but due to poor husbandry—e.g., improper diet leading to dysentery in Noah.
• Future Research Directions:
  Dr. Friese’s ongoing work investigates how care is marginalized in scientific practice and how this impacts outcomes in conservation biology as well as broader reproductive science.

6. Resisting Popular Tropes: Cloning as Diversity, Not Monotony (41:11 – 44:00)

• Discussants point out that, contrary to science fiction fears, cloning in endangered species (as practiced) is a technology of difference and diversity, not conformity (e.g., sheep Dolly vs. wildcats, Banteng).
• Instead of depicting cloning as universally “wrong,” the technology is recast as sometimes redemptive or “doing right.”

7. Who Decides? Ethics, Charisma, and the Future of Cloning (64:37 – 67:56)

• Tough Choices and Ethical Dilemmas:
  The panel acknowledges that not all species can be saved, forcing difficult decisions on which animals to prioritize and what counts as acceptable intervention.
  • Quote: “Who gets to make that decision? Because it's a diffuse decision...these questions are being answered in the actual experiment itself.” (65:00, Friese)
• ‘Charismatic megafauna’ drive investment:
  Mammals and birds are more likely to attract funding and public attention, potentially sidelining less photogenic but ecologically critical species like amphibians.

8. Bioscience, Collaboration, and Fears of ‘Contamination’ (72:14 – 75:10)

• Interspecies nuclear transfer:
  Most cloning projects involve eggs from domestic species, provoking concerns about genetic ‘contamination’ and what counts as belonging to an endangered species.
  • Quote: “There is this fear of contamination...it's a highly scientized way of articulating this fear.” (74:00, Friese)
• Interdisciplinary Collaboration:
  Biotechnologists, reproductive scientists, veterinarians, and zookeepers—especially in the wake of early failures—are all brought together in subsequent projects.
• Biotechnology Companies’ Motives:
  Private firms sponsor cloning as ‘proof of principle’ demonstrations to advance human biomedical research, showing intertwined interests.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On technological optimism:
  “Technology is here understood as a possible solution to contemporary environmental problems that humans have created.” (13:30, Friese)
• On care:
  “...Success in reproduction…will die unless it's properly looked after, which has, in fact, happened to some of the [clones].” (59:07, Franklin)
• On the ambiguity of conservation value:
  “How do people decide that something is worth conserving?...Is it still wild?” (48:10, Thompson)
• On the need for ongoing debate:
  “The lesson from endangered animal cloning projects is thus not that we should not clone. The lesson is instead that we should learn to respond well to the surprises that cloned animals make.” (36:30, Friese)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:00 – 02:22: Introduction, context for Carrie's book, structure of the event
• 02:22 – 15:29: Dr. Carrie Friese overview—history and rationale for cloning endangered species
• 15:29 – 36:30: Exploration of three logics of cloning, shifting value and spectacle, ethical implications
• 37:23 – 55:40: Dr. Carys Thompson’s commentary—cloning tropes, bestiary of cloned animals, cultural meanings and the nature/culture divide
• 55:44 – 75:10: Audience Q&A—technological failure, care, value, popular perceptions, ethics, contamination, interdisciplinarity
• 70:00 – 75:10: Fears of genetic modification, clarification of interspecies cloning, discussion of discipline backgrounds, closing remarks

Episode Tone & Takeaways

• Tone: Thoughtful, reflective, and deeply engaged with the ethical, scientific, and affective dimensions of conservation.
• Key Takeaway: Cloning endangered animals is not just a technical process but a site of intense ethical debate, cultural mediation, and practical collaboration. The practice demands we rethink what counts as nature, how we value life, and what it means to care for other species on a radically altered planet. The importance lies in responding thoughtfully to the diverse 'surprises' these animals make—scientific, ethical, and conceptual.