Podcast Summary: LSE Public Lectures and Events
Episode: Education for Sustainable Development
Date: March 4, 2010
Host: Janet Hartley (A), LSE Film and Audio Team
Guest Speaker: Tony Juniper (B)
Overview
This episode features renowned environmentalist Tony Juniper speaking at the London School of Economics as part of the "LSE Sustainability in Practice" lecture series. Juniper addresses the urgent challenges of sustainable development, emphasizing not only scientific and technological solutions but also the importance of cultural, psychological, philosophical, and economic shifts. A lively interactive Q&A follows, delving into education, politics, and the need for a transformative approach to sustainability.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
1. The Meaning and Challenges of Sustainable Development
[04:15 - 12:30]
- Juniper opens by clarifying "sustainable development," referencing the Brundtland definition but distilling it to “sustaining our ability to maintain a decent society and to sustain our security.”
- Main symptoms of unsustainability:
- Climate change (e.g., CO₂ levels rising from 280ppm to 380ppm, “the atmosphere is about as thick as a coat of paint on a football”)
- Biodiversity loss, especially through deforestation (e.g., 60,000 square km rainforest lost annually)
- Ocean acidification, water overuse, fisheries collapse
- Social dimension:
- Persisting poverty and stark inequality: “More than 80% of the world's energy and raw materials are being used by the 20%... 1.5% by the poorest 20%.”
- “The injustice is compounded by the fact that the people who are on the receiving end... are the very poorest, who weren’t responsible for the consumption of the raw materials and energy in the first place.” [21:00]
- Economic critique:
- The failure to value natural systems: referencing Robert Costanza’s work suggesting ecological services are worth $32-50 trillion/year compared to then-global GDP of $18 trillion
2. Past Progress and Remaining Gaps
[12:31 - 20:30]
- Successes include pesticide bans, acid rain reduction, ozone layer treaties, toxic emission controls, and growth in protected land areas
- Despite technical and regulatory advances, these changes have not required significant behavioral/cultural shifts from most Western populations.
- Future solutions must involve deeper personal and societal transformation: “What lies ahead... is going to require all of us to start changing our behavior and our culture as well.” [19:00]
3. The Next Frontier: Social Sciences, Economics, and Philosophy
[20:31 - 28:30]
Juniper argues:
- The future sustainable development agenda “is now going into a new phase” where social sciences—not just engineering—hold the key.
- Critical research directions:
- Political science: “How are we going to reduce consumption and do it in a democracy?” [22:30]
- Sociology: Adapting institutions for long-term thinking and equitable wellbeing within ecological limits
- Psychology: Understanding how to change human default behaviors/cultures against a backdrop of consumerist pressures
- Economic transformation:
- Building on Lord Stern’s and Pavan Sukhdev's work to “price ecosystem services” and shift focus away from GDP as the sole measure of progress
- Juniper calls for “economics that delivers human welfare first and ecological sustainability... not so much focused on the broad notion of economic growth in GDP.” [26:50]
4. Philosophical Shifts
[28:31 - 32:00]
- Argues there's a “crisis of perception” rooted in the philosophical shift from viewing humans as part of nature to seeing ourselves as separate.
- Cites indigenous perspectives as models for reconnecting: “Nature is something to be treated as a sacred presence rather than something we can consume at our whim.”
5. Panel & Audience Q&A Highlights
a. Education and Children’s Minds
Cornelius (C) [33:05], Juniper [35:21]
- Discuss the tabula rasa (blank slate) model in education and its negative consequences for children’s engagement and creativity.
- Cornelius: "The only way you can measure a society is how are we treating our children across the board. And it's not being discussed." [34:14]
- Juniper agrees: current academic focus leads to alienation; there's a need to rebalance.
b. Education for an Unknown Future
Clive Burgatory (D) [36:31], Juniper [37:22]
- Addressing how to teach skills and adaptability for unprecedented challenges.
- Juniper references Jared Diamond (“Collapse”) and adapts the lesson: “The societies that succeeded... were the ones that were prepared to change their views and to adapt.”
- Anecdote: Electric tank—“To make it truly green, all they've got to do is take the gun off.” [40:17]
c. Psychology, Public Opinion & Policy
E [40:35], Juniper [41:23]
- Discuss the rise in climate skepticism and government decisions.
- Juniper: “Cognitive dissonance... the climate thing is the ultimate example of being told you've got to cut emissions and yet you've got to get on a plane... Therefore, the easiest thing to resolve the internal conflict is to find out that it's not true.” [41:44]
- Suggests governments need to better communicate the positive outcomes of action.
d. Making Complexity Manageable
G [57:43], Juniper [59:22]
- Concern about embracing ecological and business complexity.
- Juniper: “The simple way... is to see nature as our tutor rather than a resource... biomimicry, organic farming... all these things become very obvious.”
- Recognizes need to express complexity accessibly.
e. Quantifying the Scale of Change
Mike Hoyle (H) [61:35], Juniper [62:37]
- On practical benchmarks for change:
- References Tim Jackson’s research: achieving a “300-fold efficiency increase” in carbon per unit GDP if we maintain current growth trends.
- “It is truly staggering in terms of the efficiency gains required... If you want to carry on with the same kind of GDP-led economy, GDP growth economy we've had for the last 50, 60 years.” [65:13]
f. Political Realities and Prospects
I [66:51], Juniper [67:23]
- Weighing the climate/sustainability commitment of different UK political parties.
- Cites David Cameron’s earlier commitment followed by retreat after negative press and rise of skeptics.
- Suggests the outcomes will depend on the size of the majority: “The bigger his [Cameron's] majority, the more likely he is going to be able to stick to this.” [69:32]
g. Best Practices in Education for Sustainability
I [71:05], Juniper [71:30]
- Highlights Schumacher College (Devon): “They have a philosophy of teaching which they describe as hand, heart and head... to create a holistic view of human progress and human development.”
- Argues for integrating empirical, philosophical, and spiritual knowledge.
Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments
- “We have changed [the atmosphere’s] composition, elevating carbon dioxide concentration... and it's going up at 2 to 3 parts per million per year.” (Tony Juniper, [05:20])
- "More than 80% of the world's energy and raw materials are being used by the 20%... and something like 1.5% by the poorest 20%." (Tony Juniper, [15:05])
- “The value of nature is about twice the value of the economy which we measure and try to grow every year.” (Tony Juniper, referencing Costanza, [17:40])
- “The changes that have been put in place so far didn't really require any of us to do very much, very differently...” (Tony Juniper, [18:30])
- “[Sustainability] now means... culture, psychology and sociology, democratic organizations, economics, and underpinned by philosophy.” (Tony Juniper, [32:00])
- “The societies that succeeded... were the ones that were prepared to change their views and to adapt to circumstances...” (Tony Juniper, [38:22])
- “Cognitive dissonance... the climate thing is the ultimate example of being told you've got to cut emissions and yet you've got to get on a plane.” (Tony Juniper, [41:44])
- “Are you telling us we're going to change the world for the better, for nothing?” (anecdote retold by Tony Juniper, [45:48])
- “It is truly staggering in terms of the efficiency gains [required].” (Tony Juniper, [65:13])
- “Schumacher [College]... philosophy of hand, heart and head... to create a holistic view of human progress.” (Tony Juniper, [71:35])
Important Timestamps
- 04:15 — Tony Juniper’s opening: climate change, biodiversity, and resource limits
- 18:30 — The limits of past progress and the necessity for deeper changes
- 22:30 — Call for new research in social science and economics
- 28:31 — Philosophical discussion: human-nature connection
- 33:05 - 66:51 — Q&A: education, psychology, politics, economic scale, models
- 71:30 — Schumacher College and holistic sustainability education
Tone and Approach
The tone throughout is earnest, urgent, and thoughtful—Juniper delivers complex ideas with clarity, respecting the intelligence and engagement of the audience. He combines systemic critique, anecdotal humor, and practical recommendations, encouraging a broad and interdisciplinary approach to sustainability.
Summary
This episode presents a compelling case that achieving true sustainability will require a paradigm shift—not only improving technology and regulation but also fundamentally rethinking how we educate, organize society, and understand humanity’s relationship to the world. As Juniper puts it, the challenge calls for embracing complexity, interweaving hard science with new economics, social science, and a revivified relationship with nature—"culture, psychology, sociology, economics, and philosophy."