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- [00:00]
A
Welcome everyone. On behalf of the European Institute and on behalf of the APCO Worldwide Perspectives on Europe series, I would really like to welcome you to a very timely and also what I'm expecting to be a very lively talk on Europe. Where is the Passion? By President Hansgering? Before we start, I should just make a little comment that after the speech by Mr. Pittering and the subsequent debate, there'll be drinks out in the atrium. So please do join us if you have the time and have any further questions that you'd like to discuss then. So I'll just be very, very brief, but I should say that the title of the talk today is of course very Timely. It's always a timely topic to discuss the passion of Europe. But since we are seeing quite a few challenges and even open disagreement between core member states, if you want, in Europe, we will welcome Mr. Pittering's take on the topic. We have problems with some of the very pillars of European integration. Economic and financial cooperation continues to dominate the agenda. We've seen even this last week some serious remarks made on another great achievement in the European history, the Schengen Agreement. And we continue to see that questions of the existing welfare systems in Europe needs to be dealt with as well. So monumental changes are happening at the European continent. We have very different but direct implications for people's day to day lives. And still the EU citizens continue to also question whether Brussels or Strasbourg have the answers. So today, having the pleasure of Mr. President petering, we can look at some of these issues. You will all know that Mr. Pittering is the former President of the European Parliament, but also that he enjoys the position as Chairman of the Konrad Adenauers Diftung. You may also know that he is in fact the longest serving MEP. He's been member since the first direct elections in 1979 and from 94 until 2007 this was as first vice chair and then Chairman of the EPP Group. So I won't be able to go through the full list of achievements in your distinguished political career, but I do very much look forward to hear your take on Europe. Where is the passion?
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B
Thank you so much Sara. It's such a great pleasure to be here again in the London School of Economics. And I was here, if I'm right, the last time in March 2008 and I'm so happy to be back. And I'm especially happy that the best president the European Parliament ever had, Lord Henry Plumb, is with us today and a good British European. Henry, it's really great to have you here. And although his party at that time is in January 1987, was not member of the European People's Party, my political family, I voted for Henry Plumb. But you knew it that I did, Henry. So it's so, so good to see you. And I'm very happy to see Professor Maurice Fraser and some other friends here as well. I would have liked to be here last week when you had this very exceptional wedding in Westminster Cathedral with Prince William and Catherine Middleton. But unfortunately I could only see it on television. But it was very remarkable and I wish the young couple all the best. And if you allow, I hope I'm not indiscreet with what I'm saying now. My dear friend, what was your first name? You? Robert. Robert. I'm seeing a former colleague of the European Parliament. So I will not ask all of you because I. I have not met everybody of you. I remember now when I speak about Prince William, I'm thinking of his father, Prince Charles. And I had quite an extraordinary experience. Like President or Lord Henry Plumb knows a president of the European Parliament has to make many visits and many presidents of Parliament go to China, to Beijing. And I thought, I will only make one trip in Asia and I go to Japan. And so I had the honor to see the Emperor. And the representative of the European Union in Tokyo was a British. And I said to our ambassador, I think his name was Richardson, I said, oh, I will see Prince Charles. And then four weeks later his mother. And then he said, oh, you cannot say when you speak about the Prince of Wales, you cannot use family relation names. And you have to speak about Her Majesty the Queen. And when you speak to the Majesty, Her Majesty the Queen, you have to speak about the Prince of Wales. Okay, I said, and then Prince Charles came to the European Parliament, to the 12th floor or 11th floor in Brussels, and I told him this story and preventing the personal relations between the Queen and the Prince of Wales. And then at the end of his visit, he had made a speech on environment. I accompanied him to the exit and then he said, oh, President, you told me such a nice story. I will tell my mom this story. So that was very nice. So you asked me to speak in my lecture about Europe, where is the passion? And I am very, a very bad reader. And so I think I should not use so much my papers here. And if I make mistakes, please forgive me because I will try to speak a bit, a little bit more freely. Of course, we have problems now in the European Union and everybody speaks about it and especially the people in Germany, because the Germans now think that they have to pay the bill. And we know that this is not true. And I want to quote the Economist. The economist said in April 7th of April this year, when the ancient Greeks invented the word crisis, they had in mind a short period of acute stress. The modern Greeks have been experiencing crisis for over a year and no end is in sight. Everybody speaks now in the European Union about the crisis of the Euro. And I am deeply convinced it's not the crisis of the Euro. The challenge is that some countries have spent too much money and have a too big deficit. And this is independent whether a country is member of the currency system of the European Union with 16 states, or like you here in Great Britain. And I learned today that if you take the figures of the European Union, that now the United Kingdom has a deficit of 80%, the overall deficit compared with the grand national product. And just in this year or in the last year 2010, you had a deficit of 11% or Britain had a. You are not all British, as I may assume, a deficit of 11% in relation to the GDP. And so if there are problems like in Portugal, in Greece, in Ireland, we should not say this is the crisis of the Euro. It is a crisis of those countries who have spent too much money. And even now in my country, for a long time we had only a deficit, the whole debt rate of 60%. Now the Germans are at 80%. And now we have to give these guarantees with a mechanism, the financial mechanism which we have now in the Eurozone. We have to give the money, the grants, the guarantees. And so far it has not cost money to the Germans or to the others. But the psychological situation is as if we are spending a lot of money. And I think what we need now is a double strategy. On the one hand side, we need a position of solidarity. And our former Chancellor and the only living honorary citizen of Europe, Helmut Kohl, once said that we endanger the foundations of the House of Europe if we don't act with a position of solidarity. So we have to do it on the one hand side, but on the other hand side we have to ask the governments in the concerned countries to do their utmost to reduce the death rate. And I say as a Christian Democrat, that I have greatest respect for the socialist Prime Minister of Greece, Giorgos Papandreou, that he is doing his utmost to reduce the deficit spending. And I think this is the right direction. And I think it's very useful to think about the principles of our economy and. And we in Germany speak about social market economy, maybe a little bit of a strange word for you, but I want to explain what it means. And it's even now in the Treaty of Lisbon. We are not defending a capitalist system, we are defending the market, a market economy. But the market is not an instrument in itself. It has to serve the people. It has a social dimension. And so that's why we speak now in the Treaty of Lisbon about social market economy. And social market economy means that, and this is the consequence of the experiences of the financial crisis in the world, that we need order. And we would not have had these difficulties in the world with the financial markets if there had been better regulations and a better order. And now it's the great task to find the right balance for regulation, for order in the financial field. And this is a task for the European Parliament as far as the Eurozone is concerned. And it is a task for the whole world now to find the right answers. This is my first point. So I hope that we find solutions. We help. And the member states who are in difficulty have to do the right things. And now I think all member countries of the Eurozone and even those who are not part of the Eurozone, and your government is doing, making a big effort to reduce the deficit. And in the Treaty of Maastricht, as you know, this created, the basis for the European currency is not only in the Treaty of Masig, we speak not only about common currency, but about more cooperation in the field of economics as well. And this we are lacking so far. And I hope that the governments, the European Parliament will go into the right direction so that we have more coordination in the field of macroeconomics as well. Now, ladies and gentlemen, I would like to come to a subject which I think is for our future in the European Union, in Europe of greatest importance, and this is the development in the Arab world. And Sarah was so kind to mention. I don't know whether it's always a compliment that I'm a member of the European Parliament since 1979, but it's true. And it's true, yes, there will be in two years I have spent my whole, not my whole life. You cannot half of my life in the European Parliament. Parliament. And it's not the time to say now here in London, when I might finish in the European Parliament. So it depends, of course, on many factors. But if somebody would have told us in 1979 that three nations which were occupied by the Soviet Union, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and that countries of the vassal pact, the military system of communism, that Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary would join the European Union, and that my country, Germany, would be unified. 3 October 1990. My answer, if somebody would have predicted this in 1979, my answer would have been, this is a vision, this is a dream, and it will not happen in our lifetime. So it has happened, because the people in Poland and in all the other countries in eastern Germany, they believed in freedom and what was possible there is possible in other regions of the world as well. And I am deeply impressed by the young people in the Arab world who are now fighting for freedom, for their own dignity and for democracy. The beginning of March, I have been in Cairo on the Tahrir place. And these, the people I met, the young people I met there were some older my age, but most of them were young people. And they are wonderful people. And even if some of them, most of them could speak English so we could communicate. And even those who did not speak English said to me, you are welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome. And there was such a sympathy. And with those with whom one could communicate, one deeply felt, I deeply felt that they want to live the same values we are living here in the European Union. And I think this is very encouraging. And now, of course, it's an enormous task that those people who started the peaceful revolution finally win it, win them, win the revolution. And this in history has not always been the case. Very often some people started the revolution and others won them. And then there was a dictatorial regime again. And so let's hope that this is not the case in the Arab countries. And of course, the situation in all Arab countries are different. Egypt is different from Tunisia. Then Syria is different to Morocco, and then, of course, Libya, where I, and I say it as my personal position, would have liked that all members of the Security Council from the European Union had voted in favor of stopping Gaddafi. And so now I think we have to do our utmost as European Union as a member states, Britain, Germany, all the others, and the foundation I share, the Konrad Adenau foundation to support the people in their ambition for democracy. And the Konrad Adenau foundation has representatives in Morocco, in Tunisia, in Egypt, in Amman, in Jordan, in Jerusalem, in Ramallah, in the west bank, in Palestinian territories and in Abu Dhabi. And we give advice to the people, judicial advice, or we have an exchange of views about system of economy, social market, economy, and so on. And if we are asked to give our advice, we are willing to do it. And this question, how the situation develops in the Arab countries is not only of greatest importance for the people, for the Freedom of the people, for the dignity of the people is of greatest importance for the Western world, for the European Union, in our relation with the Arab and Muslim countries. And in Germany, I don't know how it is here in Britain, in Germany, very often the impression is created that the Muslim belief or Islam is bad. And I think this is a total wrong attitude. Of course, if people are terrorists and use the religion as a reason for this, then they misuse the Muslim belief. But the average normal Muslim, whether young people, elderly people, they want to live peacefully. And this is my experience with thousands of discussions with people over in the Arab world in the many years I have visited the countries of the Arab world. And if finally democracy has a chance, then this proves that democracy and the Islam belief can go together. And you as students here of London School of Economics, Political Science and so on, you all know what Samuel Huntington once predicted, or he said this could happen, clash of civilization. And if you would believe in the clash of civilization, then it would come like a self fulfilling prophecy. And I think we have to do our utmost by cooperation, by partnership to prevent such clash of civilization. And we will prevent it if there is democracy in the Arab countries, and I hope that it is possible and everything is connected in our world, that we will get peace between Israel and Palestine. And we in the European Parliament believe. And I'm chairing a working group which I created as President of Parliament. And when I left this responsibility, I was asked to continue as chairman of the Middle East Working Group of the European Parliament. We think there should be a two state solution. Israel in safe borders and Palestine in safe borders. And this of course has preconditions. It means that there is a stop of the settlements from the Israeli side in East Jerusalem, in the west bank, and Hamas has to stop its violence. And I am in total disagreement with a statement of Hamas concerning now the death of Osama Bin Laden. And this statement criticizing or applauding to Osama Bin Laden, what Hamas have done, praising him, is a totally wrong signal. And it would support people on the other side who don't want peace. And so I really hope that the agreement which was found between Fatah and Hamas and politics is always a process, will finally lead to a peace solution with Israel in safe borders and Palestine in safe borders as well. And both the Israelis and the Palestinians have their dignity. And I think this is what we as Europeans should defend. The dignity of all people in the world and here in Israel and in Palestine. So, ladies and gentlemen, my next point is environment. I signed with this pen 23 April 2009, the European Climate change legislation. And this, by the way, is a present, a gift of the Football organization of Lower Saxony. And the capital is Hannover. And there are common routes between Hanover and the United Kingdom, as you know, we can go into the details in the discussion. I can tell you some nice stories about that as well. So it's a present of the football organization. And these presents you can keep, you have not to give it away. So I signed the European legislation against climate change together with the then Deputy Prime Minister of the Czech Republic. The Czech Republic had the presidency in the European Union, Mr. Nikas, who is now the President Prime Minister of the Czech Republic. And we as Europeans took the lead in the fight against climate change to reduce CO2 production, to be more committed to renewables, renewable energy and so on. And we have seen now in Cancun in December last year, that the other countries are step by step joining what we propose. And we need now the support of China, of Russia, the United States and Brazil and all the others in the framework of the United Nations. And I'm astonished that we, the Europeans, when we do good things, when we take a lead in a question. And climate change is one of the most important subjects in our lifetime. And in your lifetime, you are as students, you are the generation of the 21st century. When our American friends spend somewhere $1 million, everybody knows it, because they have a system of public to make things public. But we are very bad in selling our good achievements. And so I think the European Union and we all, and even if one is not so in favor of European integration, but one has to be in favor of the defence of environment, or we can call it creation, whatever you like, which word you prefer. But we should be united as Europeans to defend our achievements and to tell the people that we have to go into this direction because we know if climate change continues, what terrible consequences it will have. And I will not go into the details for several reasons. So let us continue and let us take the lead in this question and hopefully we find an international agreement in the framework of the United Nations. Then my next point, and I try to be in the framework of 30 minutes. When I was chairman of the Epped group, ED meant European Democrats and the British Conservatives were part of that as well. But then in 2009, unfortunately, I say they left, but I'm not commenting on that. But I was always chairman of the EPPED Group, not only of the Christian Democrats, of the others as well. So when we, for the first time were elected to the European Parliament in 1979. I was very often asked as a candidate for my party in Lower Saxony, in Hanover and Osnabruck, you know, the Westphalian Peace treaty from munster and Osnabruck, 1648. There are some things which connect us, the British and the people from Lower Saxony and Hannover as well. I very often was asked in 79, why do you want to be a member of the European Parliament? You have nothing to say in Brussels and in Strasbourg. And I see the people in front of me asking me this question, good willing people. And they said, you should be member of the German Parliament. But apart whether it would have been possible at that time, maybe later, perhaps not in 79. But my answer always was, we need a strong Europe because we can only defend our values and interests if we are united. And one day the European Parliament will be strong. This was always my belief. And in 1979 the European Parliament had no legislative power, nothing. We had a little bit influence on the budget. And I remember when I once said, we have no power at all. A colleague from Rhineland, Pfalzhorst Langes, you may remember him, my colleagues, he said, you are wrong. We had some budgetary competences, this is true, but not very much, but zero legislation power. And now, even before the realization of the Treaty of Lisbon, I had as president of the European Parliament the power to sign this document. As far as climate change is concerned. And the European Parliament is the co legislator with the Council of Ministers. And now with the Lisbon Treaty, we have the chance that the European Parliament, in almost all questions excluded are the taxes. We are the co legislator. And ladies and gentlemen, this is an enormous, enormous progress which we have made. And it's an expression that democracy and the parliamentary system is now more or less realized in the European Union. And it is of course a great step forward. And ladies and gentlemen, I am coming to my last point. And this is foreign policy. And you know that foreign policy, security policy, defense policy is still an area which is not part of the communitarian system. That means we have no majority voting. And it's still an intergovernmental cooperation, but we have some changes for the better. And Lord Plumb just told me that he listened to a speech yesterday night, a remarkable speech, to the President of the European Council, Hermann Van Rompuy. He is Belgium. He may not be so known in Europe. And this is a task of the media to make the people of our institutions known. The President of Parliament, Jerzy Bozek, the President of the Commission. I think he will be known by most of them, Jose Manuel Durao Barroso and Herman Van Rompuy now is the president of the European Council, so that there is continuity. And then we have the high representative who is at the same time vice president of the Commission, Lady Eshten from your country. And bringing those two positions, high representative and vice president of the Commission together, means that you prevent conflicts. In the past we had two people, Javier Solana, who did an excellent job, and then Benita Ferrero Waldner for the European Commission. But if you are representing two different sides, even if the people can work on a personal basis, well, together there will be conflicts. And now this is united in one position. And then, of course, the national parliaments are strengthened and we will have common European diplomatic, external service. These are important changes. But these changes do not guarantee, do not guarantee the success of our foreign and security policy. It needs now to be fulfilled. We need now the political will for a common foreign and security policy. And as we know today, everything is connected. And take the question of energy supply. If you take the question of energy supply, we had, as you know, some years ago, the crisis of delivering gas from Russia via Ukraine to Poland to Germany and other countries. And so what we have to do, and this is part of foreign policy, and everything is connected to prevent a situation that energy supply can be used as an instrument of foreign affairs, so that some can say we stopped the supply of gas or oil and so on. And as you know, the North Stream gas pipeline is going to be built. And it's now already the work is going on from Russia to Germany. And I was always in the past a little bit critical because the partners, the Baltic countries, Poland and Sweden and others were not consulted as they should have been done. But now I think things are progressing and I'm very much in favor of building a pipeline south of Russia as well, which is called Nabucco. It will go from Azerbaijan, then to Turkey, and then through Romania, Bulgaria to Austria. This is not an attitude against Russia. But if we diversify our energy supply, which is of greatest importance for each of us, then if we diversify it, then we more or less have a guarantee that if there are problems in the one part of the world, we can solve those problems with the deliver of gas and oil from other parts. And there is a great chance, of course, in Northern Africa for closer cooperation as well. And ladies and gentlemen, there would be a lot to say more, but I would like to stop here, but to finalize as follow. You are British, as far as you are British Here at London School of Economics. Others are not British. I am German. But for those who are living in Europe, we are Europeans. And I think we should never forget. And this is very important. I was chairman of my party in my region for 20 years. And I gave it up the first of October to a young person with an Italian name, Christian Calderone. So you understand, or it's not a German name. His father came from Italy and he was born in Germany. And immigration, migration is another great challenge. But we might discuss it a few minutes later. I'm mentioning this because Europe does not start in Brussels or Strasbourg. Europe begins where you are, at home. In my case, in a little village, Bad Eborg, near Osnabruck. And there were the bishops. There was a Protestant bishop. And this is a story connected with United Kingdom and Hanover. A Protestant bishop after a Catholic bishop with a Treaty of Westphalia, 1648. A Protestant bishop followed a Catholic one. And he was the father and his wife, Sophie, the mother of George the first of England. So I could go further into details. I will not do it. I mentioning this because Europe starts at home. And then we are living in our regions. We are living in our countries. And with our countries, those who are British, they get the European citizenship with the British citizenship. So there are four levels. The local level, the regional level, the national level and the European level. And then we have a responsibility for the world. And those who only see their hometowns will not defend the hometown. And those who see only their country, their nation, they will become nationalists. And nationalism leads to war. And those who only feel as Europeans are without roots. So I say your home, your country and the European Union to be a European. This belongs together. And I think this we should tell our people in our specific countries and try to convince them to go with us into the future of the European Union. And the most important thing is, and maybe that the British will not be. You will understand it, but you have not so much experienced it as we as Germans, with a totalitarian system of National Socialism and communism. In the past, very often, the power, those who had the power decided what was right. And now the great achievement in the European Union is that we act together on the basis of treaties. And these treaties mean law. And the law has a power today. And this guarantees, hopefully, through the whole 21st century, our freedom, democracy and the dignity of the human being in the European Union, including the United Kingdom. Thank you so much.
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A
Thank you very much for a very broad range of topics and a lot to cover. And I'm sure that now questions will also perhaps be from very different angles. But would you be happy that we collect a few questions?
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B
Sure. As you like.
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A
We give the floor back to you. So please. Yes.
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C
Thank you, Mr. President. I'm Jerry Wang.
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A
What a pity.
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C
I'm not British, I'm not European, I'm Chinese. I came here to learn from and support European countries.
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B
Two questions. The first one, I'm quite interested in.
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C
The term the social market economy because.
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B
My country, China now is practicing a socialist market economy.
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C
Can you elaborate a little bit about.
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B
The difference between those two terms? And the second one, you mentioned that European countries is taking a lead in fighting against climate change, but in some way that United States is not cooperating in this respect because they refuse to.
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C
Sign the Koto Protocol.
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B
So how would the European Union engage.
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C
And coordinate with the United States?
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B
Thank you.
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A
Okay, take a couple of more. Yeah.
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C
Thank you. Mr. President. I'm an alumni student here at LSE from the European Institute and I'm Italian, so I'm European as well. I fully appreciate your speech. Actually, I completely agree with you. However, there are two points that I would like to ask because obviously it's very easy sometimes to see the broad picture. However, when we go into the nitty gritty details, there are so many problems in general. And one policy which I think we haven't mentioned here is the social policy in general. Because of course, I think the economic policy is important in order to be unified. However, the social system in each single country is so different that probably that is also an obstacle that I think the European Parliament should, and the Council as well, Minister, should overtake. The other one is foreign defence policy and the most, the European neighbor policy. We already have policies in North Africa. However, I think in my personal opinion again, that we can't help the others if first of all, we are not united ourselves inside because when we speak with one voice, and we mean really with one voice, we are pretty, I mean, I would say effective, however, especially in foreign defense policy. And what happens in Libya now shows even more ones go to one side, the other one goes to the other because national interest and sometimes special relationship or, or whatever we're going to call it, they are pretty, you know, probably stronger than the European. So I would like to say, don't you think that the European Parliament and in particular the EPP here, I mean, I followed the EPP in the last years as well. Don't you think you should start really taking a strong step into this, I would say unification process, maybe even risking a little bit with the People, thank you very much.
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A
Any more questions for the first round? Yes, thank you. My name is Florence Deloje Godez, I am French, and I would like to come back to the title of the presentation, Europe. Why is the patient? Because, well, you appeared very passionate, which was refreshing and encouraging. But still there is a problem, especially with the ep, and I would like you to comment on it, is that the more powerful the EP is, is the lower the turnout during the European election is. And that is, well, quite a problem. And I would like you also to comment on the idea, I think, put forward by Sarah and Simon Hicks that is maybe the way of electing the MEPs is problematic and does not create a link between the citizens and the institution. And maybe we should allow the voters to rank the different candidates that are on the list, please.
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B
Okay, this was really a great, how should I say, frame of questions. I did not understand so well the second name, so allow me to say the first names. Jerry, I understood quite well from China, so I could not explain to you the socialist market economy in China. I don't know whether the Chinese government itself can explain it, but what I can explain, I'm not an economist, but at least the principles of social market economy, as I said already, I don't believe in a capitalist system. Capitalist system would mean that money and whatever you have is totally free in its movement, and so on and so on. I think we need order, but it's a great balance. In principle, I believe in the market, because the market, we are all. We are the consumers, we are the people, the actors, we buy things, we sell things. But there must be, I give you an example, there must be order. If in the end there would be the dominance of one factory building in the European Union, cars, let's say that in the end there are only two big factories who build cars. And they make arrangements and they say, oh, we make arrangements, how much your car should cost and my car should cost. So this would prevent competition. So we need order for competition. And this we do by European law and of course by national law as well. And the market needs to fulfill social, or has to fulfill social aspects of the human life. And I think this is important. And we learn from the financial crisis that we need new structures for the banks. They need a special basis of own money which. So if they only borrow money, and there is not a solid basis. I'm not an expert for these questions, but this is what I feel and what my colleagues were experts tell me. So we need to make the financial market more Stable. And in the end the great question is how to find the right balance. You mentioned the Kyoto Protocol. Write our American friends. I think President Clinton agreed to the protocol, but the Congress never ratified it. I think this is a situation and we need now with a second approach. Hopefully we get the agreement of President Obama of his administration and hopefully then of the Congress as well. And my understanding is that the awareness of environmental questions are increasing in the United States of America, like in other areas of the world and including China. And I think we should do our utmost now after the political statements in Cancun in December in Mexico, that we finalize this now into an international treaty in the framework of the United Nations. Then if I understood your first inquiry. Is it Khalid? Michele? It sounds rather Italian. Michaela. Okay, but you are British citizen.
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C
No, no, I'm Italian.
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B
You are Italian, but I never heard an Italian speaking such a good English. So this is. Okay, okay, okay. The Italians always find solutions. You know, the Germans would long have given up, but the Italians find solutions. And, and, and, and in I, I experienced eight different groups in our Henry and Robert, you remember, eight different groups from Italy in our EPP Ed group. And they were quarreling in the group and then they walk around the Parliament, embrace themselves and they find solutions. This is Italy. And so you survive since 2000 years. Anyhow. Now to the question of social policy. We don't want to harmonize everything in the European Union, but we must make sure. And that's why we have the Charter of Human Rights which is part of the Lisbon Treaty. Unfortunately it was not agreed by Britain. But I want to say that I honour very much that former Prime Minister Gordon Brown achieved to ratify the Treaty of Lisbon as such in the House of Commons and in the House of Lords. And I want to thank Lord Plum, he especially that he did his utmost that the Treaty of Lisbon was accepted in the House of Lords as well. And people very often forget what personalities have done and in politics normally you don't get thanks. And I know that many people are very critical with former Prime Minister Gordon Brown. I appreciate very, very much what he has done to ratify the Treaty of Lisbon in the House of Commons and in the House of Lords with great opposition. And I think this is really for him historic and something which will be on the positive side of his political achievements. So I said I regret that Britain is not part of this, these Grundrecht Carter, the Charter of Fundamental Rights. But. And we have a social charter, as you know. And the basis of that is there should Be minimal standards. And we cannot harmonize everything. We cannot have the same pensions in Portugal as we might have in Sweden. Do we have people from Sweden here? Students from Sweden? No, but we have Sara from Denmark. So you represent the Nordic countries. So we. Pardon.
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A
Not the same.
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B
Not the same, no. But you are very strong once in the. But the sweets as well. But now it's everything in balance. Okay, so.
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A
Okay.
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B
Okay. Good. Okay. So minimal standards and countries can go further if they want. But we cannot harmonize everything. But there should be for each person a minimum that the persons can live under good human conditions. And there will always be the question where should the European Union interfere by legislation? For instance, if you take the question of. I don't know whether I find the right words when a child is born, how long the mother can have leave. Leave is leave, maternity leave. So some things there should be a question for the national level, other things it should be for the European level. So you always have this question, but one has to discuss this on a. On a case to case basis when you are demanding, Michael a common defense. I could not agree more. Conrad Adenauer, who gave the foundation, which I have the honor to chair, the Adnor foundation, he wrote in his biography that his saddest hour was when the European Defence community failed in August 1954. It was in the national assembly, in France, all the other countries, the five of the six had ratified already the Defence Community. And the government in France at that time was not willing to discuss this. And so the Defence Community was dead. And Konrad Adenauer says this was his darkest time in his 14 years chancellorship. And it takes a long time to come back. And I am very much in favor of more cooperation in the field of defense, especially if you don't have money. It's totally counterproductive that all countries, or the big countries who produce weapons, that each country does it alone. It would be much more effective if one does it together. And you would save money. And I think this is the direction in which we have to. To go. And you said one important phrase. Everything was of course important what you said, but one especially very convincing phrase. You said, we cannot help the others if we are not united. And this is really true. And I am very sad. This has something to do with your country. When tulmpedusa came 30,000 people, or 20, a little bit more than 20,000 people. People. And we are in the European Union discussing on a non acceptable, in a non acceptable way, this challenge. And we forget to tell our people and our public what a Great advantage. What a great chance. The developments in the Arab world are for us. But we are not speaking about that or we don't get to get it into the media. We have our fights about the distribution of 20,000 people, which is not very much when you consider that in the European Union we have 500 million people. Germany accepted in the 90s, 365,000 thousand people from the Balkans. And so one should take that into consideration. And there were some German politicians criticizing Italy. I was not so happy with that, because if you criticize and you start criticizing, you have the. The escalation, the rhetoric escalation. And one always should try to find. Find peaceful solutions. But I agree to you as far as defense is concerned, then. Madame de la France, unfortunately I could not understand correctly your name. Florence or Florence, like the beautiful city in. In Italy again, so. But you are French. Florence. Florence. You are right. Unfortunately, the participation in the European elections goes down. In Germany. We were successful with the last election, 2009, to keep exactly the level we had in 2004. But unfortunately the turnout in elections and referenda go down in all countries, and not only in the European Union, in other parts of the world as well. And I will be very interested to see how the turnout today is in the referendum here in the United Kingdom. But I don't want to. Want to escape from the challenge we have there. And I think what is needed that our media, especially television, that they give more reports about European politics. In Germany we have newspapers and one is present here. They have. I'm not paid for making compliments, but there are newspapers in Germany. They. They are acceptable as far as they report about European developments. But there are newspapers, boulevard newspapers, who only bring terrible stories about the European UN Union, what it costs, and so on and so on. And this creates an atmosphere which is totally against Europe and the European Union. And then we have television, the private television, almost nothing you see there concerning Europe. And in my country we have. It's not state owned, but they have a special official character. The first and the second program in Germany on German television and they. They get a lot of money from. From the people who are watching it. They are a little bit more open than the private television, but they don't do enough. So we have to. To improve this. Then the election of the members of parliament. This is a difficult question. You in France for. For a long time had nationalists, and then you divided La grand national in different regions. And so you have regionalists like we have for my party in Germany. And I Tell you how we do it in Lower Saxony. We are five members, no, four members from Lower Saxony, from my party. And although we don't have constituencies in a legal sense, and here in Britain you have regionalists now as well, you have changed your system. So we, the four Christian Democrats from Lower Saxony, we are all responsible for one part of Lower Saxony. So my party knows where I am responsible. I'm responsible for the western part of Lower Saxony, that's to the border of the Netherlands. Then my other colleagues are responsible for the other parts. And so if the party wants to communicate with you or the citizens, they know who is the responsible member, member of parliament. And I think we can even be better in that. And if you allow me, we are so far in European integration that one can give an advice as well. I sometimes have the impression that the members of the European Parliament from France are more oriented to Paris than to their own region. I think there can be some improvements as well. Allow me to say this. I think this is part of friendship that we are so free to say to each other where, at least in our opinion, there could be improvements.
- [56:07]
A
Thanks. Any more questions? Yes, please. There's a microphone coming. One second. Doctor Petering, My name is Ivan Estahazy and I'm actually also a journalist working for Wirtschaftwache. I remember last time I had the opportunity to listen to one of your speeches was in Dublin just before the first referendum. At the time, you were reassuring the Irish that there would be no change in their tax system. Do you think it's actually right that the German and the French government are putting so much pressure on Dublin now to increase their corporate tax rate? I saw another hand.
- [57:06]
B
Hi, I'm Tim. I'm a student here at lse. You mentioned how glad you were to have a chance to visit Maghreb and visit Egypt and show your support for the democratic push for democracy in that part of the world? From a European perspective, what do you think can be done with the Mediterranean association agreements and the reform of them to encourage these NANSHA movements in that country? Specifically with regard to removing tariffs on agricultural products, which make up a huge proportion of GDP in these countries? And also with regards to your point about clash of civilizations, isn't the biggest thing that Europe could do in this regard would be to press ahead with bringing Turkey into the European Union? Oh, my God.
- [58:10]
A
Okay, a last question in the front, please.
- [58:15]
D
I am Michael Gavriel, a native of the only capital in Europe that has been bombed by both NATO and the Nazis. I'm Also a citizen of the United Kingdom. Ichbreche och Deutsch. 14 of the countries that have bombed the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia or Serbia are European Union countries. Your country, Mr. Putin, has been at war with another country in Europe for the first time since 1945. This country, my country now, has also been at war with another European country since 1945. So has France, Denmark. I noticed the chair ladies from there has not been at work war with anyone since 1864. The last time the Kingdom of Denmark fought over Schleswig Holstein with Prussia and Austria, hungary. But in 1999, the Danes had nothing better to do than to go along and bomb a country that has not as much as broken a pane of glass in Denmark. At the end of the day, you know, the fact is that the United States States cracked the whip and all these countries simply went along. As far as I know, the Parliament of Westminster did not discuss any of it. They clicked their heels and Britain was part of an aggressive alliance. The same occurred in Germany. The same occurred in all countries in Europe. If I can also mention something else, because this is important, important. Mr. Putin speaking from Moscow, by the way, that also is in Europe. Europe is all the way to the euros. Europe includes Belgrade and Sarajevo and everything else. So you're hijacking here the entire continent, and in fact, you're speaking only on behalf of the West European subcontinent. But a very important statement by Mr. Putin some two or three, three years ago directed at countries of the European Union was in fact on this business of energy. Mr. Putin said, we want to discuss with the countries of Europe directly and have bilateral relationships, but they're afraid to speak to us. If they're not prepared to come forward and to discuss their needs with us, we will have to do it with Washington first. So I'm simply telling you here that, you know, we have to take into account the position of Europe's power that when it comes in fact, to armies, when it comes to armed force, when it comes to intervention Europe. We had Napoleon's Europe, we had Hitler's Europe, but this appears to be an Americanized Europe. You may have different views. Maybe you can comment on them. Thank you.
- [61:19]
A
We'll take one very last question at the very back, and then you will have the chance to answer all of these challenging questions. Hi.
- [61:29]
B
Thanks very much. I'm neither European NOR from the U.K. i'm American. And I'll refrain from commenting on our friend from Serbia and the wisdom of the NATO bombing. But my question is related back to the topic and passion and I wonder, it's been said, I don't know by whom, but that nothing excites people so much as taxation. And short of, especially in the United States, short of Europe becoming the taxman, that is to say the EU becoming the tax man in Europe, which I don't think anyone would say, the viable political project, short of that happening, I wonder what can the European Union do and what is it doing? What do you think it should do to improve this bad press that you talk about or the lack of press that you talk about in television, whether it be state owned television or private, practically speaking, what can it do? Thank you.
- [62:36]
A
Okay, thank you very much.
- [62:38]
B
Okay, so I was asked to be short. So if you think that my answer is not sufficient enough, please forgive me. Our representative from the media. Is it called Ivanesta? Was your first time Ivanesta? No. Ah, Ivan Estahazy for Esterhazy. Okay. Tax system. The question was with the tax system. And I made a speech in Dublin before the referendum. The basis of what I said is that in the Lisbon treaty for Texas, we have the unanimous vote of the Council of Ministers. And I think I mentioned in my speech that there is only one area where the European Parliament is excluded from co decision. So co decision does not make sense if there is unanimous vote in the, in the council. And my message to the Irish was. And I tried to convince those to whom I could speak, my message was that without Ireland, this cannot be changed because it's unanimous. World, nobody can force island by. Nobody can force Ireland to give up its own position because it's a unanimous vote. But if the French and the Germans and maybe others argue there should be a special sort of tax harmonization, I cannot criticize it. It's the own decision of the government of Ireland whether they want to go this way or not. So I think my, my position is quite coherent. Without the Irish, this cannot be changed. But I think it's totally legitimate that some countries raise the question whether there should be some harmonization. I personally, I'm, I'm against total harmonization. I think it's always good to have a special, special frame of competition. But this is a different, different point then, Tim, concerning the Mediterranean. I have been president of the Euromed Parliamentary assembly from March 2008 to March 2000. And I was the successor in this position of the now interim President of Tunisia, Mr. Basa, whom I met some weeks ago in Tunis. And he said, oh, you were my successor there. I am not so happy. As interim president, you should be my predecessor. Here as well. And I said this is totally impossible. But so I'm saying this because I have some experience with those countries, and I think that the European Investment bank can play a very important role in giving money with low interest rates to those countries. And I totally agree to you that we have to open our markets for agricultural products, because if we don't do it, how shall the people find jobs, more jobs in Northern Africa, in the. The Arab countries? And they have a very, very young population. So. And we need to find the right balance in this field of agricultural products, especially with Spain. It's a problem for France as well, Portugal, for Italy. But it's my personal approach and I argue in favor of opening our markets. Then you mentioned Turkey. I am quite frank to say it. I'm not in favor of Turkish membership, because we see already now how great or big the European Union is with its different psychologies, with the different cultural backgrounds and so on. And once we have Turkey in the European Union, I deeply believe it. You may not all like this, but I say it because I say what I believe. I think politically, culturally, financially and geographically, it would be too much for the European Union. But having said this, I am for very specialized and good relations with Turkey. It's a great country. They always have been a very reliable partner of NATO to at least mostly. And the Iraq question, one can see it so or so. But Turkey has its own honor. And I give you an example, and Lord Plum might be interested to get, as former President of Parliament, this story as well. The protocol in the European Parliament is that the President of the European Parliament welcomes president of a state at the entrance of the Parliament, the president of a country. And that the President of Parliament brings back the president of a country to the exit. And as I mentioned already in Brussels, the office of the President of Parliament is the 11th floor. And I made two exemptions from this principle. The one was your next King William Prince, not William, Prince Charles. So this I made a mistake, sorry, Prince Charles, because the people around him thought it would be nice to welcome him at the entrance and to bring him back. And so I did with great, great joy. And the other person was the Prime Minister of Turkey, Erdogan. And we had a very tough negotiation because I said to him what I say here, and this was not very for him, not very nice to hear. And he had his foreign minister with him, he had his European minister and another minister with him. And so I decided you have to make a gesture. And so I went down with him. The elevator and at the exit, then you have to do good and to say it. So he should know that this was something, a gesture. And I said how the protocol of the European Parliament is. And he was so, so, so, so he really liked to hear this little story. And he knew that I respect his country and his personality. And he invited me to visit Turkey, which I will do. I have so far not done it, but I will do it. So this is my. My. Because the ADNO foundation has a representation presentation in Ankara as well. So now our friend Michael, who is now a citizen of the United Kingdom and you are not a citizen of Serbia anymore. You have double citizenship. Okay? So you can bring good European ideas to both of the countries. You have paid money to have my.
- [69:59]
D
City of birth bombed. I think we should.
- [70:04]
B
Okay, okay. So Milosevic was, in my opinion, the person to whose policy we could not give our agreement. And I think the decision which has been taken by NATO and the international community was the right one, because we had to stop the killing. But now this is a past. But we should never forget the past. And I am, for one thing, proud as a German, and I think the Germans succeeded to. I don't never know this English word. Auf. Abiden.
- [70:45]
A
To.
- [70:45]
B
To. To accept the terrible history of Germany from 33 to 1945. That we know what our history was and that we deny everything what could happen. That we. Against anything that should happen again because of our past. And I think this is still a great challenge for Serbia with Milosevic, but even a greater challenge for Russia to see all the aspects of the totalitarian system. System. Because I deeply believe you only can go into the future when you know your history, the good parts, the bad parts, and when you are committed for. For the understanding of this. I don't know whether I could make totally clear what I. What I meant. In. In Deutsche de Mansagen, the Eichne Geschichter of Abiten is somebody here who could translate it. Overcome yet to overcome their own history. But I mean to.
- [71:45]
A
To.
- [71:45]
B
To work. To work through their own history. I think this is very, very important. So I once heard a Spanish French person saying that France was on war with all countries in Europe, but not with Denmark. So this was quite fortunate. And you speak about Mr. Putin. I think that our security. And this is my. My final honor than the American friend. Sorry, Sarah. Mr. Putin. I think Mr. Putin should not bilaterally only discuss with the British, with the Germans, with the French and so on. We need. And this is part of the Treaty of Lisbon, solidarity in the energy question. So it's a European question now. And the energy question is a question that subject challenges come to the European level. And if Mr. Putin, the prime Minister of Russia would have the chance to play with the British against the Germans, the Germans against the French and so on, or the Polish, and it would was due to the Polish that this came into the treaty, then we would be lost. And so I am defending strongly that this is a question which the European Union as a whole has to discuss with the government of Russia. And as far as our relation to the United States of America are concerned, the Americans are our partners, the Americans our friends, but they should not dominate us. We, we should not dominate them. We should be partners on the basis of equal relations. They are very strong businessmen. And if we in the European Union would not be strong and united, they always would have the advantage. So we should be united and then discuss questions with the United States of America and find fair solutions. In the end, as far as our American friend taxation is concerned, in British history there is this famous word which is not so liked here, but it was liked in the United States of America. No taxation without representation. This is not comparable to the European Union, but I personally think, and this is not popular, I know that one day the European Union needs its own income, but this should not mean that there is more taxation for our citizens. If you take now Germany has now more taxation on fuels in the airplanes. So it's a German taxation. If we do this together on a European level, this would give the European Union an income. And I think we should try to find areas where we can taxes away from the national level and in a useful way have a special amount of taxation on the European level, like this CO2 taxation which the German government now introduced. So I hope that I more or less gave an answer to your questions. It's always nice to be here in the London School of Economics. And if you are not fighting for united and free and democratic Europe, then I would not see a chance for our common future. But I'm confident, confident that you will do it. And I was very, very happy to be here for a second time. And very often one says one should do things for a third time. Hopefully this might come one day as well. All the best for your studies and for your personal and hopefully for your political life as well. Thank you so much.
- [76:00]
A
Thank you, Mr. Tittering.