Podcast Summary

Podcast: LSE Public Lectures and Events

Episode: Mind-Body Problems: Science, Fiction, and God
Date: March 10, 2010
Host: LSE Film and Audio Team
Main Speakers: Rebecca Goldstein (philosopher and novelist), Steve (presumably Steven Pinker, though not specifically introduced in this transcript)
Moderator: [Unnamed, leads Q&A and discussion]

Episode Overview

This episode explores the deeply human impulses behind religious belief and secular substitutes, drawing on themes from Rebecca Goldstein's novel and engaging with questions about science, religion, explanation, and the modern need for community and meaning. Goldstein, alongside Steve, navigates the philosophical legacies of Spinoza and Darwin, the emotional foundations of religion, and the challenges and alternatives faced by secular individuals in the search for purpose, morality, and community.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Secular Parallels to Religious Impulses

[00:10]

• Rebecca Goldstein discusses how her novel uses humor to highlight ways secular people unconsciously enact religious impulses:
  • Romantic love mirrors religious devotion—deification of the beloved, irrational attachment, and a sense of “damnation” or “redemption” based on reciprocation.
  • Immortality-seeking reflects the religious fear of death, explored in a character who pursues life extension through science.
  • Charismatic figures in secular settings (e.g., university professors) act as secular “prophets” with devoted “disciples.”
    • Notable Quote:
      “You can find them in the bastions of rationality...self-declared, almost messianic figures who have their disciples, also known as graduate students...” (Rebecca Goldstein, 03:19)

Spinoza, Darwin, and Scientific Explanation

[05:20]

• Spinoza’s Philosophy (Goldstein):

  • Opposed to teleological (goal-based) explanations; sought explanations based on necessity and mathematics (“the principle of sufficient reason”).

  • Influenced by the idea that all facts must have an explanation, nothing is brute contingency.

    Notable Quote:
    “All facts ultimately have an explanation...even the laws of nature must ultimately have an explanation. There must be a...final theory of everything, which is basically what he means by God.” (Rebecca Goldstein, 06:13)

• Darwinian Science (Steve):

  • Emphasizes contingency at both the level of genetic mutation and broader ecological circumstances.

  • Darwin’s model rejects pure necessity: if you “rewind the tape of life,” the outcome changes each time.

    Notable Quote:
    “The Darwinian style of explanation has contingency at two levels...if you could rewind the tape of history...the organisms that evolved presumably would be different.” (Steve, 09:53)

• Intellectual Temperament:

  • Philosophers and scientists differ in their tolerance for contingency vs. necessity, which shapes their philosophical leanings and satisfaction with Darwinian explanation.

Cultural Attitudes Toward Intellectual “Claptrap”

[13:35]

• Satire of “Clapper,” an American professor revered for style over substance, except in Britain.
• Goldstein suggests tongue-in-cheek that the British have sharper skepticism, though she acknowledges irrationality is universal.
• Notable Quote:
  “Although he was born on the Lower East Side of New York, he has somehow acquired a British accent...I somehow felt...the Brits would be sensitive to that and realize it wasn’t the real thing.” (Rebecca Goldstein, 14:43)

Audience Q&A Highlights

On Community and Religion

[17:44]

• Question: Can regular, emotionally rich communities only be found in religion, or are secular alternatives possible?
• Goldstein’s Response:
  • Academic and other secular communities can fulfill many of the same needs.
  • Advocates creation of secular groups for good works and mutual support.
    • Notable Quote:
      “Those who wish that secularism spread, it's incumbent on them to provide alternative communities...for good works.” (Rebecca Goldstein, 18:33)

Redeemer Gods as Psychological Archetypes

[20:09]

• Question: Why do so many religions feature similar redeemer figures?
• Goldstein:
  • Redemption narratives ease guilt and our dis-ease with moral failings.
  • Virgin figures reflect collective discomfort with bodily needs and sexuality, often controlling women.
  • Such myths address deeply felt psychological needs.
    • Notable Quote:
      “God dying for our sins is one of the sweetest stories that we can tell ourselves.” (Rebecca Goldstein, 21:48)
• Steve:
  • Religions draw from overlapping pools of human yearnings, producing recurring themes.

Chaos Theory vs. the Supernatural

[24:17]

• Question: What truly distinguishes chaos theory from supernatural explanations?
• Goldstein:
  • Chaos theory operates within determinism—it’s about sensitivity to initial conditions, not true randomness or supernatural intervention.

The “God-shaped Hole” and Replacements for Religion

[25:57]

• Question: What should fill the existential void left by loss of religion?
• Goldstein:
  • Admits it’s a personal answer; for her, the search for understanding is enough.
  • Argues religion fills our desire for cosmic significance—a need rooted in evolution and psychology—but that meaning in secular life demands accepting our non-centrality.
    • Notable Quote:
      “What there is is trying to figure out what this world is like...I think that’s what there is to grow up and to just accept that fact. We are not the center of the universe.” (Rebecca Goldstein, 27:10 & 28:36)

Should Religion Be “Eradicated”?

[29:42]

• Question: Isn’t the desire to eradicate religion just another absolutist stance?
• Goldstein:
  • Clarifies she does not advocate for eradication—religion meets real needs and will persist.
  • Her concern is religion's influence on public policy, not on individual belief.
• Steve:
  • Supports robust debate and progress but acknowledges the valuable social roles of religion, provided claims are open to correction by reason.
    • Notable Quote:
      “All of the things that are valuable about religion...can continue to exist. But...it doesn’t entail that we indulge propositions about the world that our best reason indicates are incorrect...” (Steve, 32:27)

Noteworthy Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Romantic love...can almost feel like a religious conversion sometimes...the world reconfigured around this one creature who must love one back in return, or one is damned...” —Rebecca Goldstein, 00:26
• “You can find [charismatic figures] in the bastions of rationality...self-declared, almost messianic figures who have their disciples, also known as graduate students...” —Rebecca Goldstein, 03:07
• “If you could rewind the tape of history and play the history of life again, the organisms that evolved presumably would be different.” —Steve, 09:53
• “What there is is trying to figure out what this world is like...I think that’s what there is to grow up and to just accept that fact. We are not the center of the universe.” —Rebecca Goldstein, 27:10 / 28:36

Timestamps for Major Segments

• [00:10] Secular Parallels to Religion (Goldstein)
• [05:20] Spinoza’s Philosophy on Explanation (Goldstein)
• [08:58] Contingency and Darwinian Science (Steve)
• [13:35] Satire of American vs. British Intellectual Culture
• [17:44] Q&A: Community in Religion and Secularism
• [20:09] Q&A: The Psychology Behind Redeemer Figures
• [24:17] Q&A: Chaos Theory vs. Supernatural
• [25:57] Q&A: The “God-shaped Hole” and Meaning
• [29:42] Q&A: On Eradicating Religion (Goldstein and Steve)
• [32:26] Closing Reflections on Secular Progress and Value of Religion

Conclusion

This conversation offers a rich, engaging exploration of the boundaries between science, religion, and secular life. Goldstein and Steve articulate the psychological and social needs that religion meets, probe the philosophical underpinnings of explanation and meaning, and advocate for tolerant, thoughtful secular alternatives, while recognizing the enduring complexity of belief and community in human life.