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More Cooperation is More Security: Towards European Coherence in International Affairs
00:45:24
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- [00:00]
Moderator
Welcome. This is the latest in a series of lectures that the European Institute holds in collaboration with APCO Worldwide, which facilitates a series of lectures on different perspectives on Europe. Now, you're particularly welcome because this is an unusual time for our lectures. Normally they're in the evening, so we're asking you to delay your lunch rather than delaying your dinner. But thank you for doing that. It is in a good cause. I'm delighted to introduce our speaker, Dr. Eki Tuomi Oya. I hope that is correct and I can tell from some of the Finns that it may not be absolutely perfect. He's very familiar with an academic environment. He holds a PhD in Political Science and has an academic position at the University of Helsinki. He's been a member of the Finnish Parliament for a number of years, for the first period in the 1970s and then, I think, for the last 20 years consecutively he's been vice chairman and then chairman of the Social Democratic Party in the Finnish Parliament. We're delighted that he's been able to find time for us in his busy schedule on this visit to London. Of course, the topic, the theme, could hardly be more timely in a number of respects when we think about the European Union today and in the recent past, seems to be at the center of our debates. Questions about the coherence of the European Union, questions about leadership within the European Union, questions about the purpose and role of the European Union, the degree of common interest, indeed the interest in continued coordination and cooperation, advance or retreats, as it were. We read in the context of the euro crisis, the discussions in Finland and elsewhere on the questions of the Greek bailouts and the reactions of the True Finns party. But this question of leadership, common interest, degree of cooperation also fits with other policy sectors as well, in particular matters of foreign policy and security. Europe, as we well know, over the last decade has hung loose, as it were, on big questions of international intervention, whether it's the Iraq war or other issues as well, on questions of border control. Some have the Schengen area, others are outside of that. Some wish it to progress, some wish it to retreat. So the common feature here is of questions of the degree of coherence, the extent to which we share a common purpose for the European Union, and the extent to which we have a common interest in degrees of cooperation. Clearly, the foreign minister is in an ideal position to give us his view. And the title, enticingly, the argument of more cooperation is more security, I think, is reflective, as I say, of a very topical set of issues. There will be time for questions and answers later. I'm told we must all be out of the room before 2 o' clock just to give you a time check. But before we do that, can you please join me in giving a very warm welcome to our guest speaker, the Foreign Minister of Finland, Dr. Eki Tomioya.
- [04:17]
Dr. Eki Tuomi Oya
Well, ladies and gentlemen, thank you for the warm welcome. My basic thesis is that the classical approach to foreign policy and international relations, which has been dominant ever since the 1648 Treaty of Westfalen, is outdated and unworkable today. Interdependence in things, both good and bad, and whether we like the idea or not, is what governs international relations in today's globalizing world, and this applies not only to relations between states but also more generally. The concept of absolute sovereignty is a fiction that does not reflect reality any more. The multitude of various interest groups, non governmental organizations, multinational companies, social media and other phenomena like conscious consumer choices are reshaping both domestic politics and international affairs. Moreover, states no longer can claim the monopoly in international relations, and within states, especially in democracies, the leadership in foreign policy has to operate in an ever increasing real interaction with people. In our time, foreign and security policy challenges for states cannot be reduced to a question about who holds control or direct political influence over a given geographical area. Issues and possible solutions are increasingly other than military or indeed dependent on traditional power politics in general, and this is reflected in the expectations of citizens towards their representatives and policymakers. Top priority issues include combating climate change, environmental and social sustainability, economic and financial stability, the fight against poverty, radicalization and terrorism, tackling issues related to failed states, as well as responding to cyber threats, natural and man made disasters, contagious diseases, organized crime and the like. Access to global commons is already a security policy consideration of growing importance. This should mean that the international community cooperating in maintaining, developing and protecting freedom of the sea, space and cyberspace. In any country, the vital functions of society are increasingly dependent on undisturbed flows of people, energy, money, data, goods and services. When assessing the challenges of our time, the central factor to be taken into account is the growth of the world's population, and I recommend anyone in the audience to have a look at how dramatic this growth has been in your own lifetime. Since my own birth at the end of the Second World War, the world's population has already more than tripled from some 2.3 billion to over 7 billion today. And at the same time we have seen a global trend of urbanization and how consumer habits have become more demanding. Change has been so rapid that what was still manageable and workable only 50 years ago in a world inhabited by just a few billion people or less has already become quite unsustainable. And it may be that even at best, we have only a few decades time in which to adapt our behavior to the exigencies of ecologically, socially and economically sustainable development. And I emphasize all three aspects because even if ecological sustainability is the basis, you will not achieve it without social and economic sustainability as well. And this is obviously relevant to all arguments about the relative merits of an efficiency of hard and soft power. Responding to the current and future security challenges requires deepening and widening international cooperation. It means deepening cooperation in Europe. It means global cooperation with a strong United nations and other rules based international institutions means better transatlantic cooperation. And the European Union and the US working together with other important actors such as Russia, China, India and Brazil. It also needs this cooperation to be more transparent and have better democratic legitimacy in the eyes of our peoples. We need comprehensive understanding and effective action in tackling global challenges. This requires burden sharing and contributions from all states as well as other stakeholders. I would say that the European Union has contributed its fair share. Without the efforts of the eu, many global processes of key importance may not have started or produced results. Take for example the Kyoto Protocol on climate change, the International Criminal Court, the upholding of international efforts in the Middle east peace process, or the launching of the Doha Round in the wto. These are relevant examples also because many if not all of these processes or their follow up is stalling or need reinforcement. This cannot be blamed on the eu, but we have to recognize that the leadership shown by the European Union is weaker today than it has been at best. And it's certainly so in relation to what is needed. The EU is needed as an effective actor when the international community responds to global challenges. But the EU itself is facing trying times, just to put it mildly. In relative terms, the old rich part of the world now has slow growth, an aging population and a debt crisis. European states have to carry out painful economic reforms. And we can have seen that large scale demonstrations also back in some countries, which in itself is legitimate in any democracy. But more worryingly, they are not always non violent. And populism and nationalist sentiments are on the rise in many European countries. What future for the eu, one may ask. And if you are a citizen of an EU member state, I suppose you may go out and go on and ask how much of the future of your country should lay with the eju. Before trying to answer these questions, let me take A leap back in time. Having a background as a historian, I always stress the importance of knowing one's history, because those who do not know how they have arrived to where they are now will not know how to move forward, either without condemning entire nations or entire groups of people. One has to recognize that violence in our part of the world, which has been inflicted on ourselves and over the world in general, over. Over the centuries when narrowly defined interest and nationalism dominated our thinking in Europe. And this all culminated in two world wars without comparison in history. But there were also countless other wars, including colonialist wars, far away from our part of the globe, but which we were nevertheless party to. The 1950s were the starting were the turning point. Europeans chose cooperation and peaceful integration, starting with the Coal and Steel Community. As economic integration advanced, more and more countries, including the United Kingdom in 1973, found it to be in their interest to become part of this community. And by the time Finland joined in 1995, the European project had become an openly political union.
- [14:35]
Interjecting Colleague or Moderator Assistant
It was obviously political from the very.
- [14:38]
Dr. Eki Tuomi Oya
Beginning, but this was not always stressed. And since then, common foreign and security policy has been established for the European Union and later as part of it, the common security and defence policy. Thanks to all of these cumulative developments, unanimously decided by the parliaments and governments of the member states, our part of the world has had by the beginning of the 21st century become known as an anchor of stability in the world. And indeed the attraction of the European Union in the Western Balkans or our.
- [15:24]
Interjecting Colleague or Moderator Assistant
Eastern neighborhood, or indeed other parts of.
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Dr. Eki Tuomi Oya
The world, is based very much on the fact that others aspire to join this zone of peace and stability. Many of, if not all of the landmark decisions in European integration have been taken in times of crisis.
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Interjecting Colleague or Moderator Assistant
It seems to be the normal way.
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Dr. Eki Tuomi Oya
The European Union can move forward. For instance, the common foreign and security policy and common security and defence policy grew out of the frustration caused by the inability to act effectively in the Western Balkans crisis. What was first grandiosely proclaimed as the hour of Europe turned out to be the darkest hour of post war Europe. But lessons were learned and in particular the UK and France have given the essential input as the EU has developed more robust military capabilities in crisis management, while other countries such as Sweden and Finland have given the impetus for developing civilian crisis management capabilities. Today, the EU's role in global affairs is weakened by a general state of integration and enlargement fatigue as well as of course, the debt crisis. This fatigue can be overcome, but there's no institutional trick available or any other way to do this the only way is to once again revive the political will to act together. And for that we need to do free things that need not be bureaucratic, ideological or conferring any new powers to the eu. First, we need to make better use of the existing treaties. Second, continue working on the EU's enlargement and third, increase our responsiveness to the concerns of our citizens. And let me explain each of these three points in more detail. Making use of the existing treaties I think Brits and Finns have something in common in the work ethic as they have a good record in implementing EU directives compared to the EU average. We may have more dislike for EU.
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Interjecting Colleague or Moderator Assistant
Directives, but anyway we respect them better.
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Dr. Eki Tuomi Oya
Than than others who are formally more enthusiastic about them. The uk, Finland and other countries in Northern Europe may also share in feeling uneasiness in situations where political compromises transcend previous agreements. And this has been lately the case with Finland when efforts to help the Eurozone debt crisis at first overlooked the previously agreed rules of the Stability Pact and the unequivocal no bailout clause. Having said this, Finland is convinced that we can best work for also our own benefit as an active member states and within the most advanced cooperation arrangements. We are not seeking to opt out of Europe or our responsibilities, but what we do want to see is everybody respecting the rules and that decisions that are taken are also effectively implemented. From a Finnish perspective, more efforts are needed to implement the Lisbon Treaty in the area of common Foreign and Security policy. The strengthened role of the Hyde Representative and the new European External Action Service are certainly welcome, but they need much more support from the member states to increase or even to keep up the level of activity the common Foreign and Security policy had prior to the Lisbon Treaty. While the High Representative is doing an excellent job in current difficult circumstances, member states need to do better in giving her political support and guidance. It is high time for the EU to get rid of the long standing problem of giving to its representatives either unclear mandates that are open to all kinds of criticism or too narrow mandates that make it nearly impossible for the EU to negotiate seriously with its partners. The EU has also to improve on the strategic level guidance. The 2003 European Security Strategy and the report on its implementation five years later were forward looking documents at the time, but a lot has since happened and there is a need for a new comprehensive foreign and security policy strategy for the Union. Clarity of vision is needed on how the EU intends to make coherent use of its various instruments to advance its goals and how the EU intends to make use of the possibilities brought along with the Lisbon Treaty. With these positions, Finland will continue its support for a strong common foreign and security and defence policy, as well as recent initiatives to strengthen this. My second point on the way forward for the EU is to continue the enlargement process. It has, as I said, spread people and stability in Europe. And even as recently from the 1990s, the so called European perspective has been a major stabilization instrument in the western Balkans and elsewhere. Croatia will soon become the 28th member of the Union. It is a positive signal to all countries in the western Balkans and hopefully it will also give them a boost to continue not only important reforms, but also the reconciliation process and deepened regional cooperation. The UK and Finland are firm supporters of the EU's enlargement process. Finland, although a relatively new member state, has been able to make a significant contribution in this area, notably when during our presidency in 1999, Turkey was granted official status as a candidate country for accession.
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Interjecting Colleague or Moderator Assistant
Also during our second.
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Dr. Eki Tuomi Oya
Presidency, we were able at least to avert one then threatening train crash.
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Interjecting Colleague or Moderator Assistant
But with the signals system not working, these train crashes are set to happen.
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Dr. Eki Tuomi Oya
Again unless something is done. And that means that the work has to continue on the basis that while of course any country aiming to become a member of the Union must fulfil all the criteria, but also the European Union has to respect its commitments. And this concerns above all Turkey that has become an important economic and political actor, not only in its own neighborhood, but also in other parts of the world. Turkey's active foreign policy and contribution to the stability and reform processes in its neighbourhood can be an asset also for the EU's foreign policy. Having a European Turkey inside the EU would definitely increase the weight and credibility of the EU as a global actor. It is thus a strategic European interest that the membership in the Union remains attractive to Turkey as well as other third countries. My third point on the way forward for the Union is to increase our responsiveness to the concerns of our citizens. And this should start with explaining once again the origins and continuing benefits of European integration which are sometimes taken for granted by people who do not know their history.
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Interjecting Colleague or Moderator Assistant
And this is unfortunately a characteristic of our time, that history is being lost.
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Dr. Eki Tuomi Oya
That means that we are becoming unaware, inadvertently prisoners of history in the wrong way. Views in Europe converge on so many issues, especially on the ones that really count for the future of our citizens. It is in all our interests that the EU uses its weight in trade negotiations and other processes for their benefit. And it is also important that responses to their concerns on climate change, continuing poverty in the least developed countries, violations of human rights and lack of gender equality, just to name a few examples, are also taken seriously as priorities for the eu. European integration has obvious limits. Hard power and military capabilities alone cannot and should not define the EU's role. The EU has neither the need ambitions nor means to become a military superpower. The EU, as a suiganeris kind of organization, less than a federal state but with a large degree of supernational decision making and pooled sovereignty, is unique also in its capacity to use a variety of different instruments, including trade, economic and development cooperation and comprehensive crisis management instruments. And one relatively newly developed strength of the EU is its strong contribution to civilian crisis management, for which there is much demand in the world today.
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Interjecting Colleague or Moderator Assistant
But having said this, this all looks.
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Dr. Eki Tuomi Oya
Fine on paper, but when we look at the realities on the ground, we.
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Interjecting Colleague or Moderator Assistant
See that there is a lot of.
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Dr. Eki Tuomi Oya
To be done to make the EU.
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Interjecting Colleague or Moderator Assistant
Use its wonderful array of instruments in a coherent and effective manner.
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Dr. Eki Tuomi Oya
A more coherent European role will complement European countries bilateral relations as well as work done in other FORAs such as NATO overseas and the Council of Europe. There is a well functioning political framework and security architecture in Europe where each organization has its relative strengths. However, there is still also room for increased cooperation on a regional basis and one example of this is the Nordic region comprising Finland, Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Iceland. The Nordic countries have actually set an example for wider European integration with its many innovations starting from passport free travel, a common labor market and local election voting rights for Nordic citizens living in another Nordic country. These were all well adopted in the.
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Interjecting Colleague or Moderator Assistant
Nordic framework long before they became part.
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Dr. Eki Tuomi Oya
Of the European Union. And close cooperation within the Nordic countries continues in many areas, but particularly in the last years, progress has been rapid in the field of security and defence cooperation in addition to a long tradition of cooperation in UN crisis management, with more recent examples from the UN mandated EU and NATO operations, this now includes also cooperation in building military capabilities. At their meeting in Helsinki last April, the Nordic Foreign ministers declared their country's intention to cooperate in meeting the challenges in the area of foreign and security policy in a spirit of solidarity. Foreseeable security threats include, for example natural and man made disasters and cyber and terrorist attacks. Should a Nordic country be affected, the others will, upon request from that country assist with relevant means. Intensified Nordic cooperation will be undertaken fully in line with each country's security and defence policy and complementing existing European and Euro Atlantic cooperation. And I stress this last point because.
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Interjecting Colleague or Moderator Assistant
We also have a so called solidarity.
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Dr. Eki Tuomi Oya
Clause in the treatise of the European Union. But I think it would be beneficial if we were able to agree more.
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Interjecting Colleague or Moderator Assistant
On what this actually entails.
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Dr. Eki Tuomi Oya
It's not just a declaration. It should also have some more concrete basis in the event of being needed. The tragic event in Utoya, Norway reinforced the sentiment of communality and solidarity across the Nordic area. Norwegians have shown us an encouraging and admiring example of upholding democracy and the rule of law when these values come under direct attack. Looking ahead, prospects for deepening Nordic cooperation are very favorable as the Nordic countries have opted for different solutions regarding membership in the EU and NATO. Nordic cooperation, while very valuable in itself, can also open additional opportunities at a practical level. And furthermore, Nordic cooperation could also serve as a model in in the wider European and Euro Atlantic context, also in the area of pooling and sharing of military capabilities. But of course this is not what the Nordic countries are best known for. The so called Nordic model of a welfare state based on combining economic competitiveness with equality and social well being can offer food for thought also for efforts to respond to global and European challenges. Nordic countries have undergone deep and often painful reforms to overcome difficult times in economic terms. And they have shown a model of solidarity when Iceland was hit by a severe crisis. Perhaps it should also be said that the Nordic model as a concept was not actually invented in the Nordic countries. Rather, it was outside observers who first used the concept already in the 30s to characterize Nordic societies. But since then we have been happy to adopt the concept and have openly shared our views and experiences with those who are keen to understand why all the five Nordic countries usually end up among the top 10 in most international beauty contests. Where countries of the world are rated on the basis of their educational achievements, environmental responsibility, social welfare competitivity or even happiness.
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Interjecting Colleague or Moderator Assistant
How did you measure this? I don't know, but that's why I.
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Dr. Eki Tuomi Oya
Call them beauty contests. But I think that they show something which is still quite relevant. And by the way, my absolute favorite.
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Interjecting Colleague or Moderator Assistant
Among these beauty contests is the index.
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Dr. Eki Tuomi Oya
Of failed states which shows that Finland is the least failed state in the world. And I particularly like this because the term least failed state implies that we too can have some failures and that we too can do better at the global level. Nordic countries will promote free and fair trade based on upholding and developing the current universal WTO based regime in the way that the needs of the least developed countries are recognized and supported. Nordic countries favor setting high standards for environmental and consumer protection, human rights and core labor standards. This can be a successful model of not focusing too narrowly on increased short term economic productivity, but also on sustainability and well being and on investment in human capital, thus maintaining long term competitiveness and positive incentives for international internal stability in our societies. Foreign and security policy in the Nordic countries has been based on pragmatism, on values but not ideologies, on openness to international cooperation. Hopefully there is something in that spirit which could be replicated in the European Union to revive the will to work together for a more coherent and effective foreign and security policy. And by the way, the need for a stronger European role in international relations and global governance is not only a European view supported by our people. Even those who otherwise regard themselves as.
- [34:25]
Interjecting Colleague or Moderator Assistant
Eurosceptics think that Europe should have a.
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Dr. Eki Tuomi Oya
Stronger voice in international management, but it is also something which others in the.
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Interjecting Colleague or Moderator Assistant
World expect of us.
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Dr. Eki Tuomi Oya
They also want a stronger Europe, stronger European leadership. And this is obviously in the interest of all our member states. And we need each one to contribute in shaping the EU to be what we all expect it and want it to be.
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Interjecting Colleague or Moderator Assistant
And this is also what our citizens deserve.
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Dr. Eki Tuomi Oya
Thank you. Thank you.
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Moderator
We have, I think, precisely 10 minutes for Q and A. I'm going to invite questions in a moment, if you could make sure that the questions short. We're going to invite the Minister to respond equally briefly, if you may. Let me open to questions. John Palmer. There's a microphone on its way.
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John Palmer
Thank you very much. I had the pleasure of discussing some of these European issues with Kitoumayya many years ago, before he became such a distinguished Foreign minister. I've got two brief questions. You referred to the need for member states to give more support to the high representative in the area of foreign and security policy. I wonder, can you just develop that a little bit? In what ways would you, for example, like to see her, or whoever occupies that role allowed to express more openly the direction they think the Union should take? Or she has to operate on a mandate prior to decision setting out the direction that she'd like the Union to go. And secondly, briefly, you referred to enlargement. Are you satisfied with the status of the neighbourhood countries in terms of apparently being excluded from eventual European Union membership? Countries like Ukraine? What is your feeling about that?
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Moderator
Do you mind if we take two more questions? We desperately type the time we'd take. The gentleman at the front, please.
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Question Asker 2
Thank you very much for your comments.
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Question Asker 3
I'm wondering, thinking realistically, what would you hope to be the relationship between the.
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Question Asker 2
European Union and both Turkey and Russia in 10 years time?
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Moderator
Okay. And I think it's going to be the last question. Gentleman Right over here, please.
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Dr. Eki Tuomi Oya
Thank you.
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Betrasules from the European Movement
Betrasules from the European movement. So shrinking budgets in the EU have made certain member states to cooperate more in terms of defence and security, and that cooperation is taking place at the bilateral level rather than across EU level. Do you think that's the right way to go about? Is it going to produce more cooperation in defence or is it just going to limit it on the bilateral level?
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Moderator
Minister?
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Dr. Eki Tuomi Oya
Well, I think the problem with the.
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Interjecting Colleague or Moderator Assistant
EU's lack of commitment to the common foreign security policy is that member states today, particularly the larger ones, use the EU when, but only when it suits their own interests. There is no a priori commitment that you make compromises and work within the European Union for its sake, which, however, is the only way that we can expect the European Union to be taken seriously by our partners. Unless we have a common position in policy and stick to it, all of us, nobody will take us seriously. And we have already seen the effects of this lack of this cohesiveness in the European Union. Obviously, yes, I would want whoever is the high representative to also show more leadership. And I think there's a particular problem that although we have now done away with the competition between the External Affairs Commissioner and high representative by combining the two works, the high representative has not yet taken the role she should also as vice president of the Commission. So her work as a commissioner is mostly incidental. And this is reflected also in the fact that there is still, I would say, even some competition between the various other commissioners who are responsible for one or two fields for external relations. So it's a question of commitment, prior commitment. I also would want to see our meetings arranged more efficiently, more effectively, with papers being delivered somewhat earlier, before and also discussions which really lead to something else, of just saying, well, we give the high representative the mandate, which means that the member states will still keep controlling what she does or can, can or cannot do. As for the enlargement question, I think we haven't excluded Ukraine, at least nobody has done that openly, and I wouldn't do that. Ukraine is certainly in Europe, but nobody says that Ukraine could be within the next 20 years, a member. But I think Ukraine has the same possibility if our people want it, and when she fulfills the criteria to join the European Union. But that is a long, long way off. And I think that geography here also geography also includes the other remaining countries in Eastern Europe, but geography also excludes North Africa, and I think it also excludes Central Asia from Europe, but that does not exclude developing relations with all of these countries in a Much more deeper, deeper fashion than today. Where will Turkey and Russia be in 10 years time? It will be overtly optimistic to say that Turkey would be a member of the European Union. But I hope that in 10 years time we could have at least a definite date for Turkish membership. Russia, I hope at the best terms we would have, of course, a new agreement which has been open for several years now, and that Russia would more definitely subscribe to the same values and implement them as we do. But Russian developments are always one step forward to backwards, or vice versa, depending on how you look at it. But if the Russian leadership is serious about their ambitions for modernization, there's no way they will achieve this without becoming closer to sharing our values and strengthening civil society and real democracy. But that still will be a long process. I think these were the questions.
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Moderator
This is a question about reduced defence.
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Interjecting Colleague or Moderator Assistant
Well, I think that that is something that has to be done everywhere. By the way, we are spending actually too much on arms and on the kind of arms that are not really won't provide any answer to the real security threats. This is not saying that we don't need military capabilities, but they are never the answer or the sole answer to any of the security threats that we are facing. And I think that given the economic environment, we will see countries which otherwise have been increasingly putting money into armaments, such as Russia and the United States, actually reduce their spending as well and be more leaner in terms of defence capability. But I think what is important is that we also in Europe move forward on the common security and defence policy. And we in Finland firmly support the proposals which originally came from the Weimar trio, which now has been also worked on by the high representative. And we hope that this can be done at 27, meaning that the UK at the end of the day will also be a part of that. But if this is not possible, that cannot or should not prevent others from moving forward. But I wouldn't want to exclude anyone. I think it's important that as long as, and far as possible, the EU keeps together at 27.
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Moderator
I think we might just have time for one last quick question. Could we take the lady towards the back, please? If we can make it a quick question and a brief answer, please.
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Question Asker 3
I was just interested that you said that, you know, you can sort of use the model from the Nordic countries and apply that to the eu. The thing is that the Nordic countries, I mean, I'm from Finland originally myself, you know, most Nordic countries are very law abiding, kind of well behaved sort of type people. I'm just interested how you think you can apply that to the Italians and the Greeks. Completely different kind of mindset.
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Moderator
Thank you. Europe will obviously be built on stereotypes.
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Dr. Eki Tuomi Oya
Yes, well, I don't think that we.
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Interjecting Colleague or Moderator Assistant
Expect the Greeks or anyone else to become Nordics overnight. But if you are a party to international agreements, if you are a party to an organization, a community which has clear rules, everybody should stick by their rules. And there should be also be more better mechanisms for monitoring and even sanctioning that this takes place. And this is what we are doing in the European Union with the so called six pack of economic coordination so as to eliminate future crisis. I think we have in 2013, we may have with the permanent stability mechanism and with the six pack and perhaps with some seven up to it, we'll have the means in place for averting future crisis. But our main problem is how do we live until 2030 with the present crisis, for which there is no as yet clear answer.
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Moderator
Thank you. I thought the lecture was in danger of leaving us on an optimistic note, but thank you for that reality check. At the end of the lecture, could I. Before finishing, I'm going to ask you to stand your seats. We must vacate the room by 2 o', clock, but if we could let the minister vacate the room first, that would be logistically easier. Before finishing, can I invite you to join me in giving a very warm thank you for this lecture and your willingness.
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Question Asker 3
That.