Out of the Vat with Katherine Furman – Episode Summary

Podcast: LSE: Public lectures and events
Host: Ewan Rogers (LSE Film and Audio Team)
Guest: Dr. Katherine Furman
Date: August 21, 2019

Episode Overview

This episode features an engaging conversation with Katherine Furman, a philosopher of public policy focusing on health, society, and the concept of “going it alone epistemically”—that is, cases where people or groups resist expert consensus. Host Ewan Rogers explores Furman’s philosophical work, her personal journey, and her views on current debates within academic philosophy. The discussion spans her research on AIDS denialism, philosophical methodology, fiction and TV favorites, and reflections on academic life.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Katherine’s Book Project: “Going It Alone Epistemically”

[00:44]

• Furman introduces her upcoming book, which investigates situations where individuals or groups resist expert opinion.
  • Example: Thabo Mbeki’s AIDS denialism in South Africa, where government suspicion of expert science led to catastrophic public health outcomes.
  • Initial stance: “No one should ever go it alone epistemically. People should always just trust the experts...”
    [01:29]
  • But, she notes, there are also cases where resisting expertise has been justified and successful.

Defining “Going It Alone Epistemically”

[02:09]

• Furman clarifies the concept:
  • It usually involves groups, not isolated individuals, who develop their own evidence base and challenge mainstream expertise.
  • Quote: “The going it alone bit is kind of a misnomer because typically people don’t become their own experts as individuals... They do it in groups.”
    — Katherine Furman, [02:19]

Success Story: The Jane Collective

[03:02]

• An example of productive expert-resistance:
  • The Jane Collective (Chicago, 1960s-70s) trained themselves to provide safe abortions when none were available due to legal restrictions.
  • They achieved success by focusing on a specific skill and operated until legal circumstances changed.
  • Quote: “…that's kind of case of like an extremely successful going it alone case... got like thousands of people successfully through their self trained abortion facility...”
    — Katherine Furman, [03:24]

Personal Connection: South Africa & AIDS Denialism

[04:11]

• Furman, who grew up in South Africa, explains her deep, personal motivation for studying AIDS denialism.
  • Initially driven by anger at the government, she grew to see Mbeki's actions as tragic, not simply villainous.
  • Quote: “He got everything horribly wrong, but I think that he was kind of trying his best and was making errors that any one of us in a similar situation could have made.”
    — Katherine Furman, [04:41]

Controversial Philosophical Position: Embracing Applied Philosophy

[05:06]

• Furman defends philosophers doing hands-on, real-world work as legitimate philosophy.
  • Sees pushback and “gatekeeping” from analytic tradition which favors theoretical purity.
  • Cites examples like Quassim Cassam’s Vices of the Mind and Sabina Leonelli’s Data-Driven Science, where applied work is defensively framed.
  • Quote: “...philosophers should be allowed to, as part of their practice, engage in this really messy real world stuff.”
    — Katherine Furman, [06:23]

Evolving Philosophical Views

[07:29]

• Furman says she changes her mind often due to “philosophical gullibility.”
  • Quote: “…I believe everything I read the first time around... I have to do something to revise my beliefs, because... everything can't be a great idea.”
    — Katherine Furman, [07:47]
• Specifically, she revised her view on “going it alone epistemically” after seeing successful cases.

“Who Counts as an Expert?”

[09:17]

• A hard question in philosophy:
  • Social epistemology says expertise is linked to having more true beliefs.
  • Furman distinguishes between credentialed experts and those who develop true beliefs through independent or group investigation.

Recent Fiction and Cultural Tastes

[10:20 - 13:44]

• Furman shares her current and recent fiction reads:
  • The Quiet Violence of Dreams by K. Sello Duiker
  • The Red Word by Sarah Henstra—resonated with her experience of university life and radical feminist spaces.
• TV: Enjoys “Good Girls” on Netflix, describing it as “thoroughly entertaining” despite calling her viewing habits “terrible.”

Early Aspirations: Wanted to Be an Artist

[13:48]

• Childhood ambition was to become an artist, fueled by prolific painting.
  • Switched to science for pragmatic reasons, but now finds herself in philosophy.

The Joys and Frustrations of Philosophical Academia

[15:00]

• Loves teaching, supervising, and intellectual autonomy in academic life.
  • Quote: “…I really enjoy all the intellectual autonomy... I don’t have to defer to authority... I really enjoy the intellectual autonomy of being able to kind of pick my projects and make them my own.”
    — Katherine Furman, [15:17]
• Philosophy’s “intellectual playfulness” and open-endedness especially appeal to her.
  • Quote: “I really enjoy the intellectual playfulness about philosophy. So... you can kind of pick any problem you’re interested in and play with it.”
    — Katherine Furman, [15:49]
• Dislikes University “paperwork,” but notes this is not specific to philosophy.
• Points out unique problems in philosophy:
  • Intellectual snobbery: Debates over what “counts” as philosophy.
  • Sexism: Very few women philosophers; being taken seriously is a challenge.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On resisting experts: “So by the time I came to the end of my PhD, I thought no one should ever go it alone epistemically... But then I kept on encountering cases where people went it alone epistemically and, and were really successful...”
  — Katherine Furman, [01:29]
• On “philosophical gullibility”: “…I believe everything I read the first time around. I'm just kind of like, yeah, of course. That's a great idea.”
  — Katherine Furman, [07:40]
• On academia’s tedious side: “Having an academic job involves doing lots of extremely boring paperwork. So much more paperwork than I ever realized an academic job could involve.”
  — Katherine Furman, [16:17]
• On philosophy’s snobbery: “I think there’s quite a lot of snobbery around what does and doesn't count as philosophy.”
  — Katherine Furman, [16:42]
• On persistent sexism: “...clearly we have a sexism problem in philosophy, there are very few women philosophers professionally. I think that's a real problem.”
  — Katherine Furman, [16:53]

Timestamps for Significant Segments

• [00:44] – Overview of Furman’s upcoming book and AIDS denialism
• [02:14] – Explaining “going it alone epistemically”
• [03:02] – Example: The Jane Collective as successful lay experts
• [04:11] – Personal history and South African AIDS crisis
• [05:11] – Furman’s most “controversial” philosophical view: embracing real-world cases
• [07:33] – On changing her mind and philosophical gullibility
• [08:21] – Re-evaluating epistemic independence in light of success cases (early AIDS activism)
• [09:31] – What makes someone an expert?
• [10:20; 11:10] – Recent literature and personal parallels
• [12:54] – TV favorites
• [13:48] – Childhood dreams of being an artist
• [15:00] – Academic autonomy and joys of philosophy
• [16:12] – Dislikes: paperwork, snobbery, sexism

Summary Tone and Style

Katherine Furman’s style is witty, candid, and self-effacing, balanced with clear philosophical insight. The conversation moves easily from academic rigor to personal anecdotes, reflecting both the seriousness and accessible playfulness of contemporary philosophy.

For Listeners

If you’re curious about why sometimes it’s necessary to challenge expert opinion, the value of applied philosophy, or the joys and headaches of academic life, this episode offers a lively and personal window into the field. With grounded stories and thoughtful debate, Furman and Rogers make high-level ideas relatable—and offer plenty to ponder about trust, expertise, and the boundaries of philosophical practice.