Podcast Summary: "Permission to be Queer: The Case for Liberty"
Podcast: LSE: Public Lectures and Events
Date: October 14, 2025
Host: London School of Economics and Political Science
Guest Speaker: Deirdre Nansen McCloskey
Chair: Ronnie Razin
Overview
This episode features Deirdre Nansen McCloskey, a prolific economist, historian, and advocate of classical liberalism, as part of LSE’s Inclusion Week. McCloskey presents a passionate case for "equality of permission" as the foundation of liberty, particularly concerning queer rights. Blending personal narrative with political philosophy and social critique, she proposes that genuine freedom is not merely toleration but an active affirmation for all to "have a go," unencumbered by state coercion or top-down social engineering.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Personal Journey and "Equality of Permission"
- McCloskey shares her own transgender experience, emphasizing how living authentically fosters personal and societal wisdom.
- She introduces the term "equality of permission", which she defines as the foundational right for everyone to freely pursue their identity and life choices, provided they do not harm others—summed up by her grandmother’s maxim:
“Do anything you want, but don’t spook the horses.” [16:55]
2. The Two Liberalisms: Primary vs. Secondary
- Primary Liberalism (late 18th century): Bottom-up, focused on permission and non-interference—"all men are created equal."
- Secondary Liberalism/New Liberalism (mid-19th century): Top-down, using the state to engineer equality and support the vulnerable (birth of socialism/progressivism).
3. The Dangers of State Coercion
- McCloskey argues for minimal state interference, particularly in intimate matters of gender and identity.
- Invokes Judith Shklar’s concept of a “liberalism of fear”—the importance of fearing state power and its potential for oppression.
- She sharply distinguishes between physical coercion (state violence, policing) and mere persuasion or speech, defending the necessity of clear boundaries.
4. Contemporary Debates on Trans Rights
- McCloskey references debates with philosophers like Kathleen Stock, highlighting the clash over access to women-only spaces and the desire to invoke state power as gatekeeper.
- She critiques both left and right-wing opposition to trans rights, decrying a new wave of hate and legislative backlash, particularly in the U.S (notably from the MAGA movement).
5. Role of the Family and Society
- Responding to audience queries, McCloskey acknowledges the profound roles families play in shaping identity, love, and social values but warns against family and societal structures turning oppressive.
- She emphasizes that true social revolutions require changed hearts, not just new laws.
6. Against Affirmative Action and Positive State Action
- McCloskey argues against affirmative action and state-run diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) policies, favoring the removal of barriers over enforced outcomes. She regards enduring policy programs as often counterproductive or unending.
- Advocates for change in social attitudes rather than relying on government intervention.
7. Charting the Limits of Regulation with a Diagram
- Using an economic diagram, she explains how increased state coercion may initially increase human flourishing (protecting from harm) but soon yields diminishing—and eventually negative—returns.
“We liberals believe… state coercion shows diminishing returns. Sometimes shockingly.” [36:00]
8. Sport & Sex-Based Segregation
- McCloskey agrees that post-puberty trans women should not compete in women’s sports, noting it “would be absurd” due to physiological differences.
“It’s just common sense that you don’t let someone who at age 18 decides he’s a she… compete in swimming.” [67:20]
9. Global & Historical Context of Queer Rights
- Explores why queer rights are cyclically targeted, often as a vehicle for broader societal anxieties or divisiveness.
- Notes quickly shifting attitudes—such as the rapid onset of gay marriage acceptance in Spain and the U.S.—as a sign that cultural change can be “head-spinning” when reframed as a matter of basic permission.
10. How to ‘Make Liberalism Cool Again’
- Argues that fostering a culture of adult autonomy and support for liberty is key, calling for artists, musicians, and cultural leaders to champion these ideals.
- Warns that the U.S. is “moving down the curve” toward increased authoritarianism under figures like Trump but suggests hope lies in cultural and generational change.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
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On Permission and Adult Autonomy:
“Let’s just get along is the core commandment of modern liberalism.” [18:30]
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On Fear of the State:
“Fear of the state should be in everyone's heart. States have ever not been the friend of queers.” [32:00]
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On Policy Interventions:
“Once a government program gets going, it's very hard to bring it to an end. You might have made a sensible case for affirmative action in 1960, but…” [45:20]
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On Family as a Double-Edged Sword:
“The family, like most human institutions… when she was good, she was very, very good, and when she was bad, she was horrid. That's the family for you.” [66:36]
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On Sports Inclusion:
“It’s just common sense that you don’t let someone who at age 18 decides he’s a she… compete in swimming. It’s just obvious. Otherwise you can’t have women’s sports.” [67:20]
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On Liberal Values in Crisis:
“Where we are on the curve is we’re going down now. And I’m very frightened by Trump… He does another outrageous step towards authoritarianism, and it’s frightened many Americans.” [80:47]
Timestamps for Major Segments
- Introduction and Framing by Chair: 00:16–03:50
- McCloskey personal narrative & philosophical setup: 03:50–16:55
- Historical liberalism: 'primary' vs. 'secondary': 16:55–25:00
- On DEI, state, and permission: 25:00–36:00
- Diagram: Coercion vs. Human Flourishing: 36:00–38:13
- Questions & Audience Discussion: 38:13–82:35
- US vs UK context of opposition: 40:24
- State and DEI powers: 41:00
- Affirmative action & Ruth Bader Ginsburg: 44:49–48:38
- State, populism, and saving liberalism: 49:15–53:47
- Cyclicality of queer oppression & religion: 54:00–59:12
- Family as a site of power and love: 59:26–66:36
- Sports and trans women: 66:40–70:35
- Cultural, economic, legal traction for queer rights: 71:02–76:52
- Access to hormone therapy & state’s role: 76:52–78:59
- How to defend and revive liberalism: 79:21–82:35
Tone and Style
McCloskey’s talk is erudite yet accessible, blending humor with candid storytelling and principled argumentation. She balances personal vulnerability with sharp wit (“These are my cheekbones. I paid for them,” [36:00]) and a resolute advocacy for adult autonomy, urging listeners to embrace change of heart over imposition by law.
For Further Listening
- The episode ends with encouragement to engage, learn, and debate these issues within the LSE and broader public forum.
This summary covers the main themes, arguments, and audience interactions of a rich, intellectually lively episode—ideal for those unable to attend or seeking a comprehensive takeaway.