LSE Public Lecture Podcast: Scarlet Harris on Gender and Inequality in the Labour Market

Guest: Scarlet Harris, Women's Equality Policy Officer, TUC
Host: LSE Film and Audio Team
Date: January 28, 2015

Overview

This episode features Scarlet Harris from the Trades Union Congress (TUC), who discusses the findings and debates from the Gender Inequality and Power Commission, focusing specifically on women's real experiences in the labour market across age groups. The core theme is the persistence of gender-based inequality at work, how it manifests differently for younger and older women, and the role that policymakers, businesses, and advocacy groups can play in addressing these structural issues.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

Framing the Debate: Real Experiences Over Boardroom Focus

• Harris challenges the conventional focus on women in high-level business positions, arguing it overlooks the "majority of women's experience of the labor market."
  • Quote [00:22]:

    "Often that seems to default to a discussion about women on boards, women in business, which I don't think actually is the majority of women's experience of the labor market and in some ways is irrelevant... That's not where the discussion is at, from my point of view." - Scarlet Harris

Young Women in the Labour Market

• Gender Pay Gap Shrinking for Young Women:
  • Current figures show that the gender pay gap has "really isn't that significant anymore" for younger women.
  • Young women often feel "very positive about their futures in the workplace" and exhibit high confidence.
• Hidden Realities: 'NEET' Women (Not in Education, Employment, or Training):
  • Media often depicts 'NEETs' as young men, yet persistently more young women fit this category (17% women vs. 15% men for over a decade).
  • Focus groups reveal class and gender intersecting to limit opportunities:
    • Activity with job cards demonstrates clear occupational segregation, with lower-status jobs (e.g., hairdresser, cleaner) assumed as realistic, and professional jobs (solicitor, doctor) seen as unattainable.
    • Middle-class girls are offered more diverse possibilities, while working-class girls are often "pigeonholed" into lower-paid, less skilled work.
  • Quote [01:50]:

    "It was heartbreaking to watch because very quickly in all of the groups there was a huge pile of Hairdresser, cleaner, cook, nursery nurse... and jobs like solicitor, doctor, lawyer were just completely dismissed." - Scarlet Harris

Structural Challenges & Possible Interventions

• Careers Advice and Education:
  • Decrease in robust career guidance services in schools has worsened the problem.
  • Need for "good careers advice...for women and boys" to better inform young people about possible paths.
• Apprenticeships and Outreach:
  • Harris calls out the risk that apprenticeships "mirror or even magnify inequalities" unless intentionally designed to challenge occupational segregation.
  • High-quality apprenticeship programs in engineering and automotive industries have "very few women" despite good pay and prospects.
• Media and Government Role:
  • Raising awareness through the media is "part of the solution," but policy must actively dismantle barriers in counseling and recruitment.
  • Quote [03:16]:

    "There's been very little focus on how to ensure that the apprenticeship system doesn't mirror or even magnify inequalities that exist in the wider labour force, but actually challenges them." - Scarlet Harris

Older Women (Over 50) in the Labour Market

• Low Pay and Occupational Segregation:
  • Gender pay gap widens considerably after 50, compounded by high rates of part-time work (mostly earning under £10,000/year).
• Precarious Work and Lack of Training:
  • Zero-hours contracts and job insecurity affect older as well as younger women.
  • Employers rarely offer training to older women, citing proximity to retirement.
• Unpaid Caring Responsibilities:
  • Many women are balancing jobs with childcare for grandchildren, dependent children (as women have children later in life), and care of elderly relatives.
  • Employers often unsympathetic to these pressures, especially for older mothers or carers.
  • Quote [05:36]:

    "The biggest issue that came out was the difficulty in juggling work with unpaid caring responsibilities... they found their employers really unsympathetic because they just didn't anticipate that a woman in her 50s would be wanting time off to go to pick up their child from school." - Scarlet Harris

The Role of the TUC, Commission, and Evidence in Politics

• Importance in Election Year:
  • Harris underlines the need for "well-evidenced arguments" to influence party policies during the general election period.
  • Advocates for continued, serious discussion about women's experiences and gender inequality so politicians "will sit up and listen."
  • Quote [06:39]:

    "It's so important that we're putting out well evidenced arguments... and are presenting these arguments in a way that, that hopefully politicians will sit up and listen to." - Scarlet Harris

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "[Young women's] gender pay gap really isn't that significant anymore... I think lots of young women have a totally different experience of the labour market to older generations." - Scarlet Harris [00:53]
• "We have this idea that [NEETs are] an issue affecting young white men and young black men as well. But actually, the reality is that there've been consistently more women NEETs than men, certainly for more than a decade." - Scarlet Harris [01:22]
• "It becomes very clear… this, it's a class issue and a gender issue." - Scarlet Harris [01:38]
• "Apprenticeship system doesn't mirror or even magnify inequalities... but actually challenges them." - Scarlet Harris [03:24]
• "Employers often didn't see [older women] as people within the workforce that needed training or it was worth training because they were sort of coming up for retirement." - Scarlet Harris [05:06]
• "…The biggest issue that came out was the difficulty in juggling work with unpaid caring responsibilities." - Scarlet Harris [05:36]
• "The LSE is obviously highly regarded and the kinds of evidence that will be produced by this commission I'm sure will be listened to by all parties." - Scarlet Harris [06:44]

Key Timestamps

• 00:22 — Real experiences vs. boardroom focus
• 00:53 — Young women's pay gap & NEET statistics
• 01:38 — Occupational segregation and class barriers
• 03:16 — Structural issues in careers advice and apprenticeships
• 04:39 — Low pay, job security, and caring for older women
• 06:39 — Importance of evidence in political advocacy

Conclusion

Scarlet Harris makes a compelling, evidence-driven case for a broadened, intersectional approach to tackling gender inequality in the labour market. The conversation highlights the need for systemic change—ranging from early careers guidance to workplace practices and policy frameworks that recognize the diverse realities of women's working lives. This focus is especially pertinent in the context of an election year, where well-substantiated arguments could shape future legislative priorities.