Scarlet Harris, TUC Women’s Equality Officer, talks about gender and inequality in the labour market.

Summary

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LSE Public Lecture Podcast: Scarlet Harris on Gender and Inequality in the Labour Market

Guest: Scarlet Harris, Women's Equality Policy Officer, TUC
Host: LSE Film and Audio Team
Date: January 28, 2015

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Overview

This episode features Scarlet Harris from the Trades Union Congress (TUC), who discusses the findings and debates from the Gender Inequality and Power Commission, focusing specifically on women's real experiences in the labour market across age groups. The core theme is the persistence of gender-based inequality at work, how it manifests differently for younger and older women, and the role that policymakers, businesses, and advocacy groups can play in addressing these structural issues.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

Framing the Debate: Real Experiences Over Boardroom Focus

• Harris challenges the conventional focus on women in high-level business positions, arguing it overlooks the "majority of women's experience of the labor market."
  • Quote [00:22]:

    "Often that seems to default to a discussion about women on boards, women in business, which I don't think actually is the majority of women's experience of the labor market and in some ways is irrelevant... That's not where the discussion is at, from my point of view." - Scarlet Harris

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Young Women in the Labour Market

• Gender Pay Gap Shrinking for Young Women:
  • Current figures show that the gender pay gap has "really isn't that significant anymore" for younger women.
  • Young women often feel "very positive about their futures in the workplace" and exhibit high confidence.
• Hidden Realities: 'NEET' Women (Not in Education, Employment, or Training):
  • Media often depicts 'NEETs' as young men, yet persistently more young women fit this category (17% women vs. 15% men for over a decade).
  • Focus groups reveal class and gender intersecting to limit opportunities:
    • Activity with job cards demonstrates clear occupational segregation, with lower-status jobs (e.g., hairdresser, cleaner) assumed as realistic, and professional jobs (solicitor, doctor) seen as unattainable.
    • Middle-class girls are offered more diverse possibilities, while working-class girls are often "pigeonholed" into lower-paid, less skilled work.
  • Quote [01:50]:

    "It was heartbreaking to watch because very quickly in all of the groups there was a huge pile of Hairdresser, cleaner, cook, nursery nurse... and jobs like solicitor, doctor, lawyer were just completely dismissed." - Scarlet Harris

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Structural Challenges & Possible Interventions

• Careers Advice and Education:
  • Decrease in robust career guidance services in schools has worsened the problem.
  • Need for "good careers advice...for women and boys" to better inform young people about possible paths.
• Apprenticeships and Outreach:
  • Harris calls out the risk that apprenticeships "mirror or even magnify inequalities" unless intentionally designed to challenge occupational segregation.
  • High-quality apprenticeship programs in engineering and automotive industries have "very few women" despite good pay and prospects.
• Media and Government Role:
  • Raising awareness through the media is "part of the solution," but policy must actively dismantle barriers in counseling and recruitment.
  • Quote [03:16]:

    "There's been very little focus on how to ensure that the apprenticeship system doesn't mirror or even magnify inequalities that exist in the wider labour force, but actually challenges them." - Scarlet Harris

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Older Women (Over 50) in the Labour Market

• Low Pay and Occupational Segregation:
  • Gender pay gap widens considerably after 50, compounded by high rates of part-time work (mostly earning under £10,000/year).
• Precarious Work and Lack of Training:
  • Zero-hours contracts and job insecurity affect older as well as younger women.
  • Employers rarely offer training to older women, citing proximity to retirement.
• Unpaid Caring Responsibilities:
  • Many women are balancing jobs with childcare for grandchildren, dependent children (as women have children later in life), and care of elderly relatives.
  • Employers often unsympathetic to these pressures, especially for older mothers or carers.
  • Quote [05:36]:

    "The biggest issue that came out was the difficulty in juggling work with unpaid caring responsibilities... they found their employers really unsympathetic because they just didn't anticipate that a woman in her 50s would be wanting time off to go to pick up their child from school." - Scarlet Harris

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The Role of the TUC, Commission, and Evidence in Politics

• Importance in Election Year:
  • Harris underlines the need for "well-evidenced arguments" to influence party policies during the general election period.
  • Advocates for continued, serious discussion about women's experiences and gender inequality so politicians "will sit up and listen."
  • Quote [06:39]:

    "It's so important that we're putting out well evidenced arguments... and are presenting these arguments in a way that, that hopefully politicians will sit up and listen to." - Scarlet Harris

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "[Young women's] gender pay gap really isn't that significant anymore... I think lots of young women have a totally different experience of the labour market to older generations." - Scarlet Harris [00:53]
• "We have this idea that [NEETs are] an issue affecting young white men and young black men as well. But actually, the reality is that there've been consistently more women NEETs than men, certainly for more than a decade." - Scarlet Harris [01:22]
• "It becomes very clear… this, it's a class issue and a gender issue." - Scarlet Harris [01:38]
• "Apprenticeship system doesn't mirror or even magnify inequalities... but actually challenges them." - Scarlet Harris [03:24]
• "Employers often didn't see [older women] as people within the workforce that needed training or it was worth training because they were sort of coming up for retirement." - Scarlet Harris [05:06]
• "…The biggest issue that came out was the difficulty in juggling work with unpaid caring responsibilities." - Scarlet Harris [05:36]
• "The LSE is obviously highly regarded and the kinds of evidence that will be produced by this commission I'm sure will be listened to by all parties." - Scarlet Harris [06:44]

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Key Timestamps

• 00:22 — Real experiences vs. boardroom focus
• 00:53 — Young women's pay gap & NEET statistics
• 01:38 — Occupational segregation and class barriers
• 03:16 — Structural issues in careers advice and apprenticeships
• 04:39 — Low pay, job security, and caring for older women
• 06:39 — Importance of evidence in political advocacy

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Conclusion

Scarlet Harris makes a compelling, evidence-driven case for a broadened, intersectional approach to tackling gender inequality in the labour market. The conversation highlights the need for systemic change—ranging from early careers guidance to workplace practices and policy frameworks that recognize the diverse realities of women's working lives. This focus is especially pertinent in the context of an election year, where well-substantiated arguments could shape future legislative priorities.

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Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the podcast series for the Gender Institute at lsc. In today's podcast, we talk to Scarlett Harris from the TUC about the Gender Inequality and Power Commission event on gender and the economy. Scarlett Harris begins by outlining why women's real experiences of work are key to the debate.

[B]

Sometimes the government's focus. When we talk about women and work women in the labour market, often that seems to default to a discussion about women on board, women in business, which I don't think actually is the majority of women's experience of the labor market and in some ways is irrelevant actually, in terms of how we improve the lives, the incomes of the majority of women in this country. That's not where the discussion is at, from my point of view.

[A]

Well, let's start by talking then about younger women. What are the key issues, do you think there and what needs to be done?

[B]

Well, what I said in my presentation and how I feel about it is that there are lots of positive things to say about young women. And actually we've just had the gender pay gap figures out earlier this week and they once again, that for younger women, the gender pay gap really isn't that significant anymore. I think lots of young women have a totally different experience of the labour market to older generations and feel very positive about their futures in the workplace, have lots of confidence. Yet at the same time, what I wanted to talk about was the number of women who aren't in work at all and aren't in education or training either. So neets and when we talk about needs, when we hear about neets on the news, we're generally given pictures of young men in hoodies. And we have this idea that this is an issue affecting young white men and young black men as well. But actually the reality is that there've been consistently more women needs than men, Neet, certainly for more than a decade. I think it's 17% women needs compared to 15% men. And we've also had the pleasure of sitting in on focus groups where we've talked to women about their experiences and heard them talking about their experiences. And it becomes very clear that, you know, this, it's a class issue and a gender issue. There was an exercise they were given to do. They were given a pack of cards with different jobs on and were to sort them into piles of jobs that they thought that they had been encouraged to do and jobs that no one had ever suggested they could do. And it was heartbreaking to watch because very quickly in all of the groups there was a huge pile of Hairdresser, cleaner, cook, nursery, nurse, all of those kind of very important, but low paid, not especially skilled jobs that don't offer great progression routes for women. And jobs like solicitors, doctor, lawyer were just completely dismissed. They were in the pile of no, no one ever said I could do that. That was never presented as an option when I was at school. And I still don't think those are the kind of jobs that someone like me could do. I think that points to a wider issue about occupational segregation and the kinds of paths that are open to young women. And that's very divided by class as well, because I think middle class girls do have different opportunities presented to them and working class girls often are pigeonholed into those much lower jobs with very few prospects.

[A]

What would you say, then, are the key things that businesses and politicians really need to be thinking about when it comes to these young women? Then how do we get the message across?

[B]

I think there's a huge challenge there. I think some of it is about getting this message across. It's about raising awareness that this is a problem. So some of that is a question of the media, but I think the government have a role in terms of how they ensure that there's good careers advice, for example, in schools. Careers advice is something which has been decimated over the years and now it's very patchy. And there needs to be a real focus there on ensuring that young women and boys are given good information about what they could do. But also looking at things like the apprenticeship system, which has attracted huge amounts of funding over recent years, and it's something that all political parties are very interested in and see as a solution to problems of youth unemployment. But there's been very little focus on how to ensure that the apprenticeship system doesn't mirror or even magnify inequalities that exist in the wider labour force, but actually challenges them. So, for example, talking to big engineering employers and car manufacturers who offer excellent apprenticeship schemes that are recognised world round as being excellent apprenticeship schemes with very high rates of pay and good progression prospects, and they have very few women doing them, there's lots that could be done in terms of outreach work, of getting girls interested in those kinds of careers and letting them know that those opportunities are open to them.

[A]

So at the other end of the spectrum, you were looking at women aged over 50. What was the picture?

[B]

There were. This was a big piece of work that I carried out last year and the key issues that came up was low pay. So that was linked to. It was linked to occupational Segregation, but it was also linked to discrimination. It was very clear that the pay gap is huge once you get to 50. Some of that is to do with lots of women in their 50s are working part time and of those working part time, the majority are earning less than 10,000 pounds a year, which is not a lot of you're saving up for your pension. We found big issues around job security and precarious work. So we often think about zero hours contracts affecting younger women in their 20s, for example, but it also seems to affect people at the other end of the labour market. Post 50, we found that it was harder for older women to access training opportunities and the employers often didn't see them as people within the workforce that needed training or it was worth training because they were sort of coming up for retirement. But the, the biggest issue that came out was the difficulty in juggling work with unpaid caring responsibilities. And it was clear that lots of these women were juggling care for grandchildren, which was an increasing issue as the cost of childcare rises and their children couldn't afford full time formal childcare, but also caring for partners or elderly parents or other relatives. And another thing that came out actually was that as women are having children later and later in life, there were women in their 50s who also had school age children and they found their employers really unsympathetic because they just didn't anticipate that a woman in her 50s would be wanting time off to go to pick up their child from school or to go to the school play. So we've had a lot of issues there around caring responsibilities and struggling to make a living.

[A]

Just finally, I'm keen to get your thoughts on the role of the tuc, the role of the commission in making sure these important issues are raised, in making sure that these messages get through, especially in the run up to a general election year.

[B]

You know, we really welcome the commission. I think it's so important that we're putting out well evidenced arguments, as you say, in the run up to a general election. And the LSE is obviously highly regarded and the kinds of evidence that will be produced by this commission I'm sure will be listened to by all parties and will have a huge amount of influence. And I just think it's so important that we have these kinds of discussions about gender inequalities and women in the labour market in the run up to the general election and are presenting these arguments in a way that, that hopefully politicians will sit up and listen to.

[A]

Scarlett Harris is Women's Equality Policy Officer at the tuc. You can find out more about the work of the [e-mail] genderinstitute and you can also follow us on Twitter scgender Twee.