LSE Public Lecture Podcast – "Staying Safe Online" (19/10/2010)

Main Theme

This episode, hosted by the LSE Film and Audio Team, focuses on the pervasive risks and evolving landscape of information security, law, and privacy in the digital age. Featuring Rob Carolina (Solicitor, LSE alumnus, expert in international business law and information security) and Bob Ayres (former military intelligence officer, privacy and surveillance specialist), the event delves into changing understandings of law and responsibility online, the “deglobalisation” and “bordification” of cyberspace, and the steady erosion of personal privacy by both states and the private sector.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Law and the Internet: Myth vs. Reality

Speaker: Rob Carolina
[01:22–32:34]

• Debunking the Frontier Myth
  • Opening with the “Declaration of the Independence of Cyberspace” (Barlow, 1996), Carolina argues that the idea of the internet as a lawless, ungovernable frontier is “utterly and completely wrong” ([04:17]).
    • “You have no sovereignty where we gather. … Cyberspace does not lie within your borders.” –John Perry Barlow (quoted at [02:40])
    • “I give this article to my students to read every year as an example of what might be the most wrong thing ever written about Internet governance.” ([04:11])
• Three Pillars of Internet Law
  • 1. There is no such “thing” as “the Internet”. It’s not a legal entity—like “television”, it only exists as infrastructure and people ([05:53]).
  • 2. There is no “place” called cyberspace. “It’s a shared illusion." Bank accounts and data are always physically held and legally regulated ([06:33]).
  • 3. Laws apply to people, not technology. “I’ve never heard of a computer being arrested…” ([07:19])
    • Legal processes: Identify people, identify actions, then apply old laws to new facts ([08:00]).
    • “Just because they happen to be using a new media doesn’t change the law.” ([09:39])
• Myth of Lawlessness
  • Cyberspace always had an oversupply of law—copyright, gambling, tax, and more—but a shortage of enforcement due to lack of understanding by authorities and professionals ([12:57]).
  • “If anything, we had an oversupply of law.” ([13:03])
• The Closing of the 'Frontier'
  • By the 2010s, policymakers, police, and the public “generally understand what [the Internet] is” ([15:04]).
  • Mass enforcement has replaced the lawless days.
  • “We just kind of woke up one day and realized that cyberspace is really here with us on planet Earth. Sorry, one romantic metaphor, dead.” ([17:27])
• Borders and “Deglobalisation”
  • Legal jurisdiction is exerted by geographical states, not by a global “people of cyberspace”; "Facebook is not a country and never will be" ([18:51]; [19:33]).
  • Cites Gutnick vs. Dow Jones (Australia, 2002) – publication on the internet can trigger local liability wherever it is accessed ([21:22]).
  • Geolocation is now used by services (Yahoo, BBC, Google) for content delivery, advertisement, and liability avoidance ([23:15]).
  • “In case you haven’t noticed … the Internet does have borders.” ([24:55])
  • State and private enforcement—e.g., Great Firewall of China, geolocation-based content filtering ([26:01]).
• Technical and Policy Fragmentation
  • Challenges to universal DNS and cloud computing—the concept of one “authoritative root” is “no longer true” ([27:05]).
  • "We’ve entered a border technology arms race, basically." ([27:31])
  • Corporate structures (esp. Google) face existential challenges from national sovereignty ([27:39]).
    • “Google will not survive as a thriving multinational enterprise … unless and until it decides to undertake a major restructure...” ([27:54])

2. Privacy, Surveillance, and Data Aggregation

Speaker: Bob Ayres
[33:23–77:40]

• Erosion of Privacy in the Name of Security
  • Legal bases (Universal Declaration of Human Rights, European Convention) are riddled with exceptions ([33:57]).
  • To combat terrorism, organized crime, and other “good causes”, state surveillance has exploded—CCTV, ANPR, DNA databases, biometric passports, communication monitoring, and more ([36:52]).
    • “There’s nothing more dangerous to our rights to privacy than a good cause.” ([47:43])
• Examples of Surveillance Overreach
  • Microchipped bins, Oyster card tracking, biometric school attendance ([39:24]).
  • "We'll find those terrorists with that camera in a baked bean can for sure..." ([46:03]; sarcastic).
  • Nearly half a million communications data requests in 15 months; over 800 UK organisations allowed to request access ([41:06]).
• Data, Personas, and Exploitation
  • Individuals have fragmented “personas” across different sectors—public and private. Once provided, data cannot be “unprovided” ([49:36]).
    • “Once you provide it, you cannot unprovide it.” ([49:41])
  • Databases are increasingly cross-correlatable, enabling powerful inferences (e.g., benefit fraud, tracking associations, even murder alibis via refrigerator logs) ([50:00]; [51:25]).
• Legal Reality: Privacy Rights Full of Holes
  • Multiple exceptions hollow out privacy rights ([52:14]).
    • “You have a right to privacy unless ... national security interests override … which in a cumulative sense mean you don't really have much of a right to privacy.” ([52:14])
  • Enforcement is lopsided—easier to pursue civil recourse against companies for privacy invasion than the state ([54:06]).
  • Cumulative provision of personal data is poorly understood—a major risk ([56:30]).
• The Coming 'Database Time Bomb'
  • National identity cards (even if scrapped) would have radically linked disparate data silos via a unique identifier, dramatically increasing the risk of abuse ([57:30]).
  • “We are on the cusp of combinatorial database exploitation.” ([57:30])
• Cultural Shift: Devaluation of Privacy
  • “The perceived value of personal information seems to be dropping…” ([57:05])
  • People are trading vast personal data for trivial rewards (e.g., free services) ([52:34]).
• Policy and Enforcement Struggles
  • Laws and regulations lag behind rapid technological change ([61:03]).
    • “It takes years to get a policy into effect…and in that period…the technology base changed six times.” ([61:03])
  • Judges, legislators, and law enforcement are often unprepared for digital issues ([62:33]).

3. Q&A & Practical Considerations

[27:49–77:40]

• On Google’s Future ([27:49])
  • Carolina: Google cannot survive globally unless it transforms its operations and legal structure to comply with divergent local rules, as with recent China and Italy setbacks ([27:54]).
• Law Enforcement Challenges ([30:12])
  • More police are being trained in digital forensics, but extradition remains a key obstacle (i.e., criminals hiding in jurisdictions with no cooperation).
  • Anticipates a day where entire countries could have their traffic arbitrarily blocked to prevent cybercrimes ([30:22]).
• Personal Steps to Stay Safe ([65:34])
  • Think before disclosing information (esp. on social media); be aware of privacy settings; monitor credit through agencies ([65:34]).
    • “If somebody’s absolutely determined to get at you, there’s not an awful lot you can do … Just don’t be the easiest target.” ([66:36])
• On Identity Theft ([64:43])
  • “There’s no way that you as an individual can protect yourself against identity theft … you've already done it." ([65:28]; [69:45])
  • Carolina is less pessimistic, noting that banks are generally quick to rectify fraudulent activity ([70:22]).
• On Ownership and Control of Data ([73:59])
  • “This concept of belonging or ownership doesn't fit really well with data ... who has the ability to look at it, collect it, analyze it or otherwise process it.” ([73:59])
• Limits to Data Mining and Regulation ([76:16])
  • Ayres: “Will ... cross database correlation be curtailed...? The answer is no. It’s like trying to take a supertanker and make it do a sharp right hand turn at 30 knots. It’ll never happen.” ([76:16])
  • Carolina: Disagrees, citing strong EU data protection constraints ([76:44]).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Rob Carolina ([04:11]):
  “I give [Barlow’s Declaration] to my students to read every year as an example of what might be the most wrong thing ever written about Internet governance.”
• Rob Carolina ([24:55]):
  “In case you haven’t noticed … the Internet does have borders.”
• Rob Carolina ([27:39]):
  “Google will not survive as a thriving multinational enterprise ... unless and until it decides to undertake a major restructure of its corporate assets, its operational methods, and its technical architecture.”
• Bob Ayres ([47:43]):
  “There’s nothing more dangerous to our rights to privacy than a good cause.”
• Bob Ayres ([50:00]):
  “Once you provide [data], you cannot unprovide it.”
• Bob Ayres ([52:14]):
  “You have a right to privacy ... unless [any exceptions apply], which … mean you don’t really have much of a right to privacy.”
• Rob Carolina ([70:22]):
  “I’m not quite as pessimistic as you are, Bob… My main concern tends to be the three people who’ve stolen my identity…which the bank thoughtfully put back…”

Important Timestamps & Structure

| Timestamp | Segment | Speaker(s) | Key Topics | |--------------|--------------------------------------------|---------------------|------------| | 00:00–01:20 | Introduction | Host (A) | Context for series; speaker bios | | 01:22–32:34 | Internet Law & Borders | Rob Carolina (C) | Law’s application, end of cyberspace 'frontier', deglobalisation | | 33:23–52:34 | Privacy and Surveillance | Bob Ayres (B) | Surveillance, privacy rights, state overreach | | 52:53–62:33 | State vs. Private Privacy Risks & Q&A | Carolina & Ayres | Private sector data abuse, growing tracking, policy lag | | 62:33–77:40 | Audience Q&A and Discussion | Multiple | Law vs. tech, identity theft, personal safety tips, future of personal data | | 77:40–78:27 | Closing Remarks | Host, Carolina | Resources, event promotion |

Tone and Language

The podcast balances technical clarity and legal insight with a conversational, sometimes wry or ironic tone. Both experts draw from personal anecdotes, practical analogies, and concrete cases, grounding complex issues in everyday language while signaling the real consequences for individuals and society.

Summary Takeaways

• The idea of a lawless, borderless Internet is a myth; governments now wield increasing legal and technical control, and cyberspace is balkanizing along national lines.
• Vast and overlapping legal regimes, with improved enforcement, now regulate online activities; corporations must adapt or face existential risk.
• Surveillance and data aggregation by the state (and, increasingly, by private actors) pose serious challenges to meaningful privacy, with multiple legal loopholes and practical vulnerabilities.
• The digital age is characterized by the steady erosion and devaluation of personal privacy, often willingly surrendered in exchange for convenience or trivial benefits.
• Individuals can—and should—adopt prudent online habits, but should recognize that, on a systemic level, legal and technical protections struggle to keep pace with risks.
• Ongoing legal and policy debates hinge on foundational questions of data ownership, control, and cross-border enforceability in an era of accelerating technological change.

For further resources and advice, visit Rob Carolina’s blog at internetborders.com, and for LSE staff/students, consult IT Services.