A (3:00)

Nice, nice. So the title.

B (3:04)

So how I chose the title. Yeah, okay, cool. So when I pitched the book, I pitched it with a title called Leveling up. Because I played computer games. And we always kind of think about getting to the next level and some levels are pretty hard. And needless to say that when I pitched it, they said we can leave to decide the title for later on. I'm not sure that's necessarily the best title for the book. And then we agonized over it. So it was really a collaboration with Penguin thinking about what were the messages in the book. And the whole idea about it is that you should think about something that's relatively far off in the future that you want to aim for. And it's all about kind of setting these kind of small things in place that actually get you there. So we were really happy with the title, Think Big, Take Small Steps and Build the Future We Want. And I absolutely still love it. But I will say that if you go and you look on Amazon, the other person who has a book called Think Big is Donald Trump. So if you are looking to buy it, do go for the one with the colorful cover because I don't think he needs any more people to buy his books.

A (4:03)

Fantastic. Listen. Thank you, Grace. That's a. That's a really nice intro. Let me just let some. Because obviously I had the honor of being able to read this before it was released. So I'm going to go through, through the chapters that I maybe just pick out a few of the things that I found interesting as I read it. I think. Well, we start. I think we start with how. How people should choose a job. I Guess that's that'. That's an obvious place to start. And you talk about this being based on the activities that you're going to engage in in your job rather than the status or titles that come with that occupation. You want to say a bit more about that?

C (4:37)

Yes.

B (4:37)

You know, I've done some work in schools and it always astounds me that kids choose jobs and don't necessarily know what they'll be doing day to day in the jobs. They don't necessarily know the tasks. And because of that, I started asking people who were thinking about changing their jobs. So, you know, sometimes we have students who come to the executive Masters in the LSE and they're thinking of overhau their lives and they would say that they want to do something different. And I would say, what is the day to day grind in that job? And again, you don't necessarily kind of get the full answer that you would expect to get when somebody is really going to change their lives. And I think in Think Big, what I want to really do is encourage people to identify the type of tasks that they actually enjoy doing. Throw away occupation titles and throw away and throw away ideas of lifestyle, but identify tasks that they like doing and then from that back out the type of jobs that would allow them to do those tasks or engage in those activities. And I think that serves kind of two purposes. So I think the first is that if you approach it from the point of view that you're choosing based on activities that you enjoy doing, you're much more likely to be happier in that job and you're going into it with your eyes wide open that there'll be some aspects and you know, every job there's going to be some aspects that we don't like, but you know what those are. But I think the second is, you know, the way work is changing and the way work is moving because of the Industrial Revolution and being shaped by Covid. If you are really familiar about the type of activities that you want to do, it makes you much more resilient in the labor market because you'll be able to kind of be much more adaptable and figure out other jobs that you can do with your qualifications. And you know, just from kind of my experience of talking to a lot of people about the type of things that they do, when you have a keen sense of awareness of the activities that are involved in your job, rather than over focusing on the title, it makes you much more likely to be able to move to other jobs and.

A (6:24)

Actually be happier yeah, so it's interesting. I mean, I completely, completely get the focus on activities and it's, you know, something that I've made a big point about in my own work is about what we, you know, what we do and how we use our time and how we spend our time day to day is obviously critically important to our happiness. I just wonder how do I do that? How do I work out? How do I get a sense of what kinds of activities would bring me pleasure and purpose? In my language of happiness at work particularly, I asked that question in relation to people having different opportunity sets. Right. So one of the things that we obviously notice is that people from working class backgrounds have much limited set of opportunities, but not only opportunities, but just expectations and imaginations even about the kinds of activities that they would find rewarding in work compared to middle class people who have a much broader set. How can we deal with that challenge?

B (7:21)

Well, I agree with you about middle class people having a much broader set, but I do think that middle class people might still have a very bad idea about what they actually enjoy doing because they're still over focusing on occupation titles. One of the first things that I do in chapter two of the book is present people with these lists of activities that are common in jobs. So I do that for people who have really no idea about what they want to do. So someone who's kind of coming to this, they feel ambitious or they feel that they're in the wrong place and really getting them to kind of pick out the activities and then encouraging them to get these opportunities to engage in these activities. And for some people that would be easier than others. But I give kind of some kind of life hacks that people can do if they don't necessarily have privilege where they can knock on somebody's door and say can you give me some experience in that? And the reason that I encourage people to actually try the activities is sometimes my idea of what I'll enjoy doing myself is very disconnected from the actual reality when I go and do the activity. And again, if you've focus on that exercise and the activities in the book, they map directly to occupations that people are doing on a day to day basis. Kind of allowing you to, once you get this experience on a day to day basis, you figure out what you like to identify an occupation that might better suit you.

A (8:35)

Great, thank you. I should have also emphasized at the beginning and I apologize to this to the audience is please do post your questions and they will be filter to me in the chat function and I will And I really do want to have a, you know, engagement with us. With us, with us, with us all. So I can put your questions to Grace.

B (8:54)

You.

A (8:55)

I think. I think you move and talk about time. You know, it's obviously the scarcest resource that we have. We're, you know, 10 minutes closer to death than we were when we started. It's time that we're not going to get back. How do I. How do I find or how does one find the time to plan, to think about these issues and maybe even to think about changing jobs?

B (9:19)

So, I mean, I think the first thing to say is for everyone who's tuned in tonight, thanks for the privilege of your time, because as you pointed out, we often end up kind of losing time very, very easily. So I'm really delighted that there's so many people actually here for this hour. In the third chapter of the book, I talk about this idea of time sinkers and doing time audits. And I am somebody who squanders my time pretty easily, actually, if I don't necessarily keep an eye on it. And there's three different types of ways that we can spend our time. We can spend our time on activities that actually kind of add value to ourselves in the future. So kind of we're really investing in something. Maybe we're investing in a skill or we're investing in a relationship that we have. The second are things that actually give us instant gratification. So that might be watching Netflix or eating chocolate. And then the third are things that don't give you any gratification, but we tend to do them. Like this idea of busy work, I think, in the new economy. And, you know, Paul, I think you and I might have sat through a number of meetings where we thought afterwards that was two hours of my life that I'm never going to get back. So really in that spirit, you know, it didn't add any value to us, and it didn't probably add any value to the people in the room either. And getting people to just really audit their time for a week and identify the second two categories. So this pointless time that you're spending, these time sinkers and moving away from that and being very honest about the fact that you're moving away from it. And then the second one are these instant gratification, depending on, you know, who's in the audience, some people will be very, very good at it. And some people will be a bit like more like me that will really kind of like those instant happiness hits that you get from, you know, watching Netflix or going out too many times during the week. And what I ask people to do is between the activities that are useless and between these activities that give us instant gratification, it's basically fine, 90 minutes a week. And that really ties to the title. So in those 90 minutes a week, committing to these kind of small steps that allow you move forward on a very regular basis or rather than totally reconstructing your life to kind of, to change your career. And I think all of us can find 90 minutes, to be honest, Paul, I think regardless of where we are and how busy we're feeling, I think all of us can find those 90 minutes. So it's really down to that time order.

A (11:32)

Yeah, and I get that, I like the small steps thing. And you know, we know that, you know, you're not going to make any big change in one go. It's a series of discrete and small steps that get you there. That's the well established facts. And I like the fact that you, you draw our attention to that, I guess. Where are people finding this? But how do they work out their balance and what I would call pleasure and pleasure and pleasure and purpose? How do they, how are they learning? How are we learning how we get in the feedback about where we're allocating our time in ways that are going to make us happier overall or maybe, you know, get the job that you're looking for. I'm struggling a little bit to understand how, how I do that, how I kind of work that out. I say that because I've spent quite a long time trying to work that out myself.

C (12:14)

So are you asking how you, how you get the right balance of pleasure.

A (12:18)

How you get the right, how you, how you get the right balance between I get the weight, I get the wasting time point of, you know, sort of pointless time that how you would get the right balance between the incident, what you're calling the instant, the instant gratification, what I might call pleasure, and then the sort of the work related, longer term project bit which might be called purpose.

B (12:42)

I mean, I think this is a great question because when I think about it another way, I think people who end up really loving their jobs are much more likely to burn out and have a kind of spillover into all of the other dimensions of their life where they're actually working hard. I think from the perspective of think big, what I really want people to do first is embrace this idea of 90 minutes. So again, you could imagine if you're somebody who's engaging in a lot of pleasure activity there's no way that's going to tip your balance in the wrong direction. And then the reason for that 90 minutes is that I would bet once people actually get really interested in, once people get, you know, really start paying attention to skills that they're honing and they've spent some time and actually they're a bit better at the skill, that they'll start feeling that they'll start feeling happy in it. So that the kind of pleasure, purpose, boundaries blur then. Right. So there's a lot of things that I do purposefully in my life that I really enjoy doing. Kind of like being here tonight. And it would be even better if we were in person because you get kind of this buzz out of it. But then I think on the other side of it, really thinking about how do we not let that go too far, that you're spending everything on purpose and you're spending everything pursu doing a job to the detriment of other lives. It's really about keeping an eye on your other life domains. And I don't think that there's actually a really good formula for that. So, you know, I have friends who manage to work 55 hours a week and still have an incredibly balanced life, but then I have other friends who work 55 hours a week and it really spills over into their other life domains, becomes exhausted. And in the resilience chapter, I try to address that. And you know, I think one of the things that underlines think big is that individual differences are really important. So there's no one solution that you can actually give somebody to make sure that their life is actually balanced. But I think that there are insights that will work for some people, enough for others. And that's really kind of a time of self reflection. So I'm not surprised that you said that you struggle with it because I think it is something that people, you know, that everyone struggles to get right. But having that feedback on a weekly basis then is very important.

A (14:36)

Yeah, no, I think what you. I think that you're right in highlighting in 90 minutes. I think that's the, that's the critical bit, I think, because that will provide great opportunity for people to work out what that balance looks like. I'm going to go to a couple of questions. I move on into later on into the book shortly, but I'm going to take a couple of questions at this stage because there's a couple of interesting ones coming in. There's a question about your book seems to be well suited for people who are pursuing a traditional 9 to 5 career path. Does it also have anything more to say about people who are pursuing entrepreneurial ventures?

B (15:19)

Yeah, I mean, I should say if that's come about from the conversation, I'm not marketing my book very well. So the book is really about all types of careers. And actually one of the things that I talk about a lot is this idea of a side hustle and becoming an entrepreneur and not necessarily taking all the risks. So it doesn't necessarily need to be all or nothing. And also there's lots of examples for thinking about kind of pitching as an entrepreneur and also kind of thinking about what your medium term goals should be at various stages. So it is actually about building futures. And again, I think the start of it being about activities really allows it to be much broader than the traditional 9 to 5 career. So I'm hoping that it will kind of be useful for people who are thinking about a career in school, who are thinking about changing their kind of traditional nine to five, as the question asks, but also for people who are doing things outside that in the gig economy or in startups.

A (16:11)

Yeah, no, I should echo that, having read the book. It is for everybody who is thinking about changes, but not even changing jobs. I don't think, I mean, I'd like to emphasize, I'll do this for you is that even for people who are going to stick with the job that they're currently in, to think about how they can make those jobs happier and change the activities that they engage in in their jobs, even if they have no intention of changing. So I don't, I wouldn't, I also wouldn't want people to think that this book is only about people who want to start a new job.

B (16:41)

Yeah. And you know, it speaks about things that hold people back for getting promoted and getting pay raises and actually what, you know, it's, it can be for people who are looking for very, very small changes to people who are looking for very, very large changes. So we're trying to go for a general audience.

A (16:57)

Okay, so I've got another question here. Do you think the constraint young people may feel in choosing a job or career is that they, for whatever reason, don't feel they belong in it? How can the individual overcome this? And what should employers do?

B (17:12)

So I think the first question, you know, the answer is yes. And you know, Paul has written about this first, but the idea of narratives kind of, you know, the story that I tell yourself and kind of being disconnected from social norms and you know, I speak about narratives, think big from Kind of a different way, but very much kind of inspired by this, but thinking about why I don't put myself forward for things, so why I'm not necessarily choosing to be in an occupation that I think I would like. You know, some people will say that they're not good enough, or some people would say people like me aren't accepted in those jobs. And I think that there's a section really about kind of how you actually challenge those narratives. And I will confess that, you know, when I wrote this, I thought that this was quite a difficult, a difficult thing to do because how can you challenge your unconscious mind? You know, you might be aware of the narratives that are holding you back, you might be aware that you have imposter syndrome, but how can you actually challenge it? And I think nevertheless, there's a lot of behavioral insights that can help you. And for people where that falls down and that doesn't work out so well. The small steps part then is really, really fundamental. And linking again back to the activities and I think the second part of Roger's question, what can employers actually do? I think it's firstly when people actually start in an occupation, I think we over focus on year to year progress. I see this in a lot of big firms where we fill out forms, these career development reviews and we're asking, what did you do in the last year? And this kind of big picture about what a person might actually want to achieve in the medium or the long term is really, really lost. And I wonder about what those processes have done to creativity. So I would love to see employers coming back to kind of connecting with where would you like to be in five years if everything actually works out for you? And moving the focus away from this kind of year by year, kind of soul draining, form filling, to be honest.

A (18:57)

Yeah. Okay, listen, I'm going to move on to later parts of the book. And you talk a lot about biases and you just mentioned them in passing just now. You've got a whole chapter on the biases that hold you back. Maybe I'll give you an opportunity to sort of say a bit more about that.

B (19:13)

Yeah, so what I wanted to really kind of do is, you know, if you come to study behavioral science, the lse, you'll learn about a lot of biases. And we always talk about them in kind of different ways. They can actually affect people's thinking. And I wanted to pick out the ones that are much more likely to affect people on when they're actually thinking about their future and thinking about what they want to do for work. So there's three that I'll just kind of mention quickly here that are covered in the book. So the first is the idea of anticipated loss aversion. So obviously if we're going to put ourselves forward for something, the anticipation is an experience in itself. And I became quite fascinated about this when I went to some seminars by Robin Bakken about every eight or nine years ago and he was talking about holidays. So how we think about our holiday, the anticipation can actually give us much more utility than experiencing the holiday itself. And I think it's the same when we think about putting ourselves forward. So if I'm thinking about putting myself forward for promotion, if I'm thinking about pitching for a gig as an entrepreneur, that anticipation can be enough to hold me back. But when we think about the failure that might actually happen and how we might feel, we don't necessarily take into account that we adapt as human beings, which I think is really, really important. I also talk about confirmation BIA so the idea that we tend to surround ourselves with people who make us feel comfortable and what that might actually be doing for our future, what that might actually be doing with respect to the opportunities that are there in front of us. My favorite battle is with time consistent preferences. And again, when we're thinking about time really getting people to think about.

C (20:48)

How.

B (20:48)

They'Re trading off, how they're spending their time today versus the future. So if you do decide to read the book, you can essentially expect to read an entire chapter that talks about the individual biases that we have ourselves that stop us getting to where we want to go. And I think it's really important to highlight these because sometimes when we get stuck, we under emphasize how much we can actually do for ourselves and we point the finger at others. And I think that chapter is really about putting that out there so people kind of move the needle without even involving anyone else.

A (21:19)

Yeah, I think that's important. We'll move on to the biases that other people have as well in a second. But I think just to sort of emphasize that point is that there's things that other people do to us and there's things that we do to ourselves. And you know, I mean, if you. We're the best masters of sabotage that there is. Right. If you think about the self sabotaging that we all engage in, we've harmed ourselves every bit as much as other people have. Or we're, you know, at least, you know, subject to those kinds of biases in the same way as other People are. But let's, let's, let's move on to those other people's biases. Talk a little bit more about those, Grace.

B (21:54)

So even the. Again, I kind of tried to separate the type of other people's biases that you might come up against to kind of ones that are quite sinister. So, you know, you might come up against people wanting to hire their friends, people always preferring to surround themselves with people like themselves. Perhaps you might even come up against discrimination from biases that will happen just because a person is operating in their system once. It's just because they're operating in their fast brain. So, you know, there's lots of papers in behavioral science that tell us that people make different decisions depending on whether they're hungry versus not when they're hungry, and that people make different decisions depending on whether they're emotional versus not being emotional. And again, that chapter is really devoted to kind of getting people to reflect on their interactions that they're having with people on a daily basis, figuring out whether or not the biases, whether they're the more sinister ones or the ones that are kind of happening, that have kind of less sinister roots, if you like, are affecting them and giving them tools to kind of overcome that. So what can you actually do to tip the odds in your favor? So what can you do to tip your odds in your favor? If you're faced with similarity bias and you really want to get the job where people tend to hire people like themselves? Or what can you actually do if you're facing a pitching gig and you get to choose the cue of where you get to present? And puma, maybe you want to give some advice to the audience that if you are pitching for funding as an entrepreneur, whether you should choose to go first in the middle or last. But I think these two. I think these tips are really, you know, they're interesting and they're quirky, but they do manifest in real life, which is quite fascinating.

A (23:27)

Yeah. Well, maybe we'll pick up on some of those more contextual issues as they come in. I'm sure people are going to ask some more questions on that as well. I just want to come back to this other people, this discrimination point, really, which I guess you touched upon in the comments you made about other people's biases. And, you know, we've had many conversations about this, that if you think about going into a profession that you. You actually think that you might be quite happy in, but it requires you to act in a particular way, to play by the rules of the game that essentially mean that you're faced with the choice. And I always use the very stark language as well, because it's actually quite fitting, I think, is that you either fit in or you fuck off. And that's the choice that you face. And it is often quite a stark choice, particularly for working class people moving into middle class occupations. What do you think? What ways can we debias some of those effects that will enable people to both go into those fields of activity and also be themselves?

B (24:24)

I think this, you know, I should.

C (24:25)

Say that when I wrote the chapter outside and when I wrote about the kind of, the kind of idea of the kind of harder to tackle biases that you're just describing, you know, the first draft that I sent to Penguin, they said, you know, you really need to look at it again because I'd be quite depressed if I was reading this chapter, you know, so it's a really hard thing to actually resolve. And if I had a silver bullet, I think I would have shot it by now. So I think that's the first thing to say. I think the second thing to say is, you know, this is a problem that faces working class people who are going into jobs where people who have from higher socioeconomic status tended to be for a long time. It happens to women who go into jobs where we have much higher shares of men. It happens to black people who are going into jobs where it's dominated by white people in the uk this kind of feeling that you actually don't belong. And I think it's firstly to the detriment of the companies so that we're not actually welcoming of those perspectives. So we believe that having different voices around the table is good for business, but we don't necessarily take the steps that allow us to include them. And I think there's a lot of advice out there that would say to people that if you don't fit in, you should find another employer. And I think that we really do rely on people who choose not to do that to actually change the status quo in all honesty and who choose to rock the boat and make the argument about the fact that that how culture is actually defined in the organization is set up to allow some particular groups of people succeed versus others. And embracing that inclusion will help a lot. And I think it's easier for me to answer the question from the firm perspectives. That's why I'm talking a lot before I feel like a politician. It's easier to answer it from the firm perspective because I think at the inclusion Initiative. We know some interventions that will work if people are actually bracing being included. But I think for people who are in an environment where the context is making them feel really, really crummy, I think that there are solutions in the book that really talk about how you can ensure that your progression isn't hampered, so how you can ensure that you get promoted at the same rates, how you can ensure that you get paid at the same rates. And I also think that there's something to talk about with respect to resilience, because it actually is hard to go into an environment where you don't feel that you fit in, where you feel uncomfortable. And, you know, I think society is changing and that will take some time, but I think until then, the best things that I could kind of do in the book is to talk about how you can make sure that you progress the same rates as other people. So we get those individuals who are different to the top organizations so they can evoke change. And secondly, about working on resilience, so to make sure that working in that context doesn't actually swallow you.

A (26:59)

Brilliant. Thank you. Thank you, Grace. I'm going to go to a couple of questions now. I've got a question from Carsten Shaw. Maybe I should. I don't know whether. Do we name. I don't know whether you name people with their questions. They might feel embarrassed by having their names read out. I'm not sure, but I hope. I apologize to you, Carsten, if that's the case. It's a bit late now, so I've said it twice. So the question is really one that I've struggled with for a while as well, kind of motivates a lot of my happiness work, is that they've read the contents in it and it looks like the theme that's reoccurring is goals and steps and everything is about moving forwards. And of course, you may get to the destination by taking these steps and realizes in many cases that that actually isn't a place of happiness, that you're moving towards something that isn't actually making you feel good. At least it doesn't make you feel good when you get to the summit as you thought it would. Have you got any comments on that?

B (27:55)

I mean, I think the answer is, is that a lot of times the arrival fallacy happens to people who haven't actually focused on the activities when choosing their job, so they've. They've chosen them based on a title.

C (28:05)

So.

B (28:05)

So this happens a lot in finance, for example, where people like the idea of finance they like the idea of being on the trading floor, they like the idea of learning an incredible amount of money. But the actual day to day grind and what that actually means isn't necessarily well within their grasp of what it would actually mean to do it. And I think taking that focus back to activities does two things. Again, it makes the arrival fallacy less likely to happen. But also, if you're kind of conscious about am I spending my time and work engaging in things that I like doing or do I need to mix it up? You're much less likely to arrive at a destination that you don't like because you're constantly reinventing yourself. So, you know, Paul, perhaps 10 years ago you liked sitting in the boring meetings that I tend to avoid. But maybe over time you've changed your preferences and again, if you're focused on the activities, you will then very consciously think about, okay, maybe there's a way that I can actually pivot my occupation so I can be engaged in things that I like more.

A (29:02)

Yeah. I don't know that everyone's anyone's ever enjoyed being in boring meetings. You find that in a really kind of obvious way. But maybe. What can we do?

B (29:09)

Sorry, I'll say. Well, I do like being in some meetings. Yeah.

A (29:16)

Yeah. I mean just, just meetings.

B (29:17)

Yeah.

A (29:17)

I mean, yeah, let's not. I can, I feel like, I feel like there's a. I feel like you've opened a whole. Up a hole for me to jump in, which I'm not. Which I'm not about to do. So. But let's. We're having, we're. We're laughing a lot on this session, I think, or at least a bit more than. More than is typically the case in an academic discussion. Where does it be interested to see where you think humour plays into your discussions throughout the book and you know, how not just in academic environments, but there is a kind of narrative around sort of not laughing too much because it does a disservice maybe to the seriousness of your work. What do you think to that?

B (30:01)

Yeah, you know, so I speak a bit in the book about my struggles.

C (30:05)

At LSE at different times in their career because I am somebody who jokes around and I think sometimes we associate people who actually joke around with people who don't necessarily take themselves seriously in other aspects of other aspects of their life. And I thought that that was kind of something that's kind of useful to put out there. And I think since then, true research in the Inclusion Initiative, Cecily and Teresa have actually started talking about psychological Safety at work and you know, we know the psychological safety within teams allows them be more creative, be more innovative and also assess risk better. But what does the role of humor actually do within that?

B (30:40)

So you know, there's evidence which they've.

C (30:42)

Been telling me about that really suggests that having a team and this, you know, this feels so intuitive to me when I, when I say it out loud and I hadn't thought about it when I was writing thing big, so I thanked them. But having a team that actually does enjoy humour and does enjoy a joke together and is quite relaxed are much more likely to get us kind of innovative, kind of creative and assessing risk better. So I guess what does it mean then when we sit in meetings or we have engagement with colleagues where we're feeling very stiff and we're not necessarily feeling relaxed, it probably doesn't set us up to have the best ideas. So I know you work on happiness, so it's a no brainer that not laughing is probably going to make you more unhappy at work. But I think next to that is actually a good argument that is actually going to make you be less productive. So, you know, I think it's tentatively, I would say that because there's not loads of papers, but it's definitely a signpost in that direction and it feels intuitive to me. Feels intuitive to me.

A (31:36)

Yeah. I mean there's certainly, you know, as you know, there's certainly good data on creativity being, you know, fostered more when people are in positive moods. That's, you know, certainly, certainly some good evidence on that. Causal evidence on, on that. I wonder what other things that we're missing in the workplace that we could be embedding that would make it better for people to focus on the activities that are good for them. We talked about humor. I wonder if there's anything else that comes to mind. I mean, in the book or elsewhere?

B (32:10)

Yes. You know, in the book I talk about groupthink. So how we can actually kind of move out of the status quo. That tends to happen if we leave people to their own devices of falling into groupthink, which I think is really important. So how can we run meetings where we're not just reiterating the kind of same things that have been said over and over again. How can we get to a place where people are kind of revealing the hidden information and these kind of different ideas that they have and they're not necessarily being shouted down. And I also think kind of moving away from meetings where you have one or two people who are the ones who were actually kind of talking in the meeting or, or in that collaboration space. And again, I think these are things that actually are easy to implement in companies and they're also not my ideas. There's lots of companies that have implemented these and are having really, really great. And are having really great results. So I think if we were to embrace the idea. So my problem with psychological safety as a concept is I think it tends to be really, really badly defined. And I think kind of how we actually move people towards psychological safety is quite difficult. So I think there's kind of three things that you might want to see companies do. Really focus on team building and shared experiences for those teams. Really focus on curbing groupthink and really focusing on, you know, you've brought up humor, but really focus on kind of injecting the fun back into those teams and having them not be competitive with each other. And that might be kind of a role for classic economic incentives, but competitive with the outside world. So essentially that you're trying to create something that's really going to add value above and beyond what's already there.

A (33:44)

Yeah. Thank you. Back to an earlier question, someone was asking about how initially activities can be, you know, pleasurable, purposeful, fulfilling, whatever, but over time become quite one dimensional. How do you kind of. Because I'm sure that so many people we know so many people who start off in a career or job and they're actually having a reasonably good time in whatever way you want to measure that to begin with, and then they sort of get stuck in a rut and 20 years have passed and their future's behind them and they're wondering what's happened. I mean, how did they get to the point where they find that out before, you know, 20 years have passed?

B (34:24)

Well, I hope that's not you.

A (34:30)

Did that feel like an autobiographical account? No, that actually wasn't intended to be.

B (34:34)

20 years feels about the right number for that.

C (34:36)

Yeah.

B (34:36)

No, I think this is a great question. So I think firstly, if everything was done by acting from when we're in school, that situation is less likely to happen.

C (34:45)

Right.

B (34:45)

So people are self reflecting kind of all the time about what are the tasks that I'm actually doing in my job. And I think, you know, we have to realize as well that if we take a job today that the tasks are being shaped by kind of factors outside us. So there's no reason that the activities that I'm doing now would be the same in five years time in any occupation. But I think it's the Same process, Paul, to be honest, you know, if you're a bit older, and I think this careers event with LSE back in February, and it's really worth. It's worth checking out because Dauschen, who was one of the guests on it, talks a lot about kind of identifying the lived experiences that you have if you're somebody who's older and needs to do something to change careers, and that employers themselves need to be really recognizing those skills in older people. And I think the exercises in Think Big really speak to that because it gets you to think about what am I actually good at, rather than what was my old job, job label. And it gets you to kind of think about what am I actually willing to do in the future with respect to kind of getting upskilled. So it's the same process. You're just doing it 20 years later than anyone else. And if it has. If it happens to be you, Paul, I'm going to coach you for free. So in tonight's event.

A (35:59)

Yeah, I don't know. I suppose I should publicly say thank you. I don't know what I say privately. So. Yeah, I mean, I think you draw our attention importantly to this being at any stage in your career or life course. I mean, I think that's fundamentally important that we remind ourselves, that we all get reminded of that it's never too late. But I want to go back to another question as well that someone asked earlier, which is about you can do all of these things and it's all sounds wonderful, but if you've got disruptive bosses or you're working in an organization where, you know, it's quite interesting from some of the happiness data, that time spent with boss is the least happy time that people spend in work, which is a sad indictment in many ways with bosses. But what can we do about that?

B (36:46)

Well, I think there's kind of. I think there's two approaches. So the first is to kind of take the journey and get ready to leave. Right. So kind of equip yourself with kind of investing in things that will allow you to kind of leave easily. And I think the second is to figure out how to navigate around that boss. And you shouldn't want to get stuck with kind of one person. You know, I talk about in the book about an experience that I had at the LSE myself where I was told that I wouldn't, you know, get promoted for five years, even though I thought I was two years off of it, which is back. Back when I started by somebody who I really, really Kind of believed and actually would have been somebody who would have kind of championed that promotion. I think it's really putting that in perspective becomes very important because if you let one person determine your future, you're really going to be very, very disappointed if you bump up against the wrong. If you bump up against the wrong boss. And unless you're in a small organization where there is only one person and you're the only other employee and it's one person at the top and for others, when you're in a large organization, you can go and find other people who can champion you and mentor you, which there's loads of that. There was loads of people there to do that for me, me. So, yeah, so I think it's, I think it's really about navigating around that. If you want to say, making sure that your pay and your promotion prospects aren't affected or getting yourself on a journey, getting ready to leave.

A (38:10)

Yeah. Okay. So I'm going to sort of ask a variant of another question that's coming. I think I'm dealing with most of the questions that have been filtered through to me. When you're making a choice between two alternatives, there's a joint evaluation task taking place, essentially looking at what makes the two options different from one another because that's where attention will be directed. Because when you make the decision, you experience only one of those choices and it's a separate evaluation. So there is an important question about distinguishing between the things that matter when you make a decision compared to the things that matter once that's been resolved. And so I wonder if you can reflect on that a little bit and maybe just whether there's any. I don't know, I suppose it's any sort of further guidance, I suppose that we could give or you could give about how you would make that choice, how you would work through knowing whether to stay or leave or whether to change careers and what activities to focus on. I'll just give you sort of opportunity to say a bit more about that because I know there's so much in the book that you can draw on.

B (39:07)

Yeah, I mean, so I think the.

C (39:08)

First, I think firstly, when it comes to people's careers, I think we agonize sometimes too much over decisions that are kind of two door decisions. So once you actually go out the door, if it doesn't work, you can probably go back. And I think differentiating between those times becomes really, really important. I think the second one is if you are choosing between two paths and you really are stepping outside Kind of one door and you're moving on. You know, I kind of say this in the book. One of the most fascinating insights from behavioral science is that once choices are made, we have cognitive distance that will actually set in and it will tell us that we actually made the right decision anyway. So again, if you're certain about the activities that you. That this new opportunity is going to give you a chance to engage in activities that you're going to like doing, I would encourage people to step outside the door and kind of take the risk because I think too often we get hampered by these kind of choices and comparisons and what will happen with the road not traveled. And I think very often once we start going down a new road, lots of other opportunities arise, which is something that we don't factor in when we're weighing up those decisions.

A (40:14)

Yeah, I mean, I appreciate the fact that you've cited both my books in your book. That's obviously the first thing that you look for when you look at references is every and any academic will admit this as they look for their own names. So I'm thankful that you've done that. One thing that I. To emphasize this point, I think, is that if in doubt, get out. I think that's generally been. I mean, generally. Would you agree with that? As a piece of advice, it sounds like you would. I mean, because you'll make sense of why you made the decision. Whereas if you don't, there's always that nagging doubt of the uncertainty not being resolved. We're very good at being able to make sense of uncertainty once it's resolved. We can't make sense of it until it is.

B (40:55)

I agree with you. I would be slightly more cautious and just say, wait that amount of time and figure out what you want to do next. So figure out what the transferable skills are. I'm talking a month than a year for anybody who's listening. But yes, I think, you know, there's two. I think there's a lot of talent wasted by people agonizing or over whether. Whether they should actually kind of stay or go. And I think if it's the case that you are absolutely miserable in work, that basically means you're absolutely miserable in the activities that you're engaging in. Then you should figure out something else to do and just take that leap and trust yourself. You know, I think if you're going to bet on somebody, it may as well be yourself and just go for it.

A (41:33)

Yeah, it's okay. So you're a bit more cautious than I am. A little bit more circumspect in the advice that you're offering people. I mean, it does relate to a question we've got in about risk. Do you think that most progress happens in our careers when we take bigger risks?

B (41:47)

No, not necessarily. I think, you know, I think a lot of progress actually happens from the kind of small grind that we're actually doing day to day. And you know, this is essentially the small steps that I've written 300 something pages about the idea that kind of working on something that you're actually moving towards and spending time on activities that you actually like. But I think that there are kind of key stages where we do have to make high stakes decisions. You know, I've spent a lot of time working with companies about teaching them how to make good high stake decisions and I think, you know, think big offers the roadmap for that as well. But it's not just all about taking risk. And you know, there's kind of an expression that this might be something that you say, Paul, but it's definitely somebody in the, in the behavioral science gang. The idea that when we're, when we're reaching for something, we should be on our tippy toes. I knew it wasn't me, I just knew it was somebody in the group. And I think that that's a really nice analogy for those small steps because that's really what gets us to these big outcomes, is being on our tippy toes. And once we've found our solid feet, being on our tippy toes again. So I think we overestimate risk sometimes when we're thinking about our future, the importance of risk when we're thinking about our future. And we can do a lot with, you know, a side hustle with honing skills with very, very small, small intervals and really just committing to doing that regularly.

A (43:08)

Yeah, yeah. So there's a, there's a question from it, from, from Eva, which I'm going to make a broader variant of essentially the paradox of choice in a way. Right. So as we've moved into where we've seen it with obviously, you know, dating apps, right. You know, so the world, world is now full of many more people than would otherwise have been the case when we had to actually go up to people in a bar when the bars were open and we would get knocked back and have to do it again. And it creates a significant cost. And actually probably your option set is limited. You've got three people down the street, maybe one person at work, one person on the train or tube. That you might meet and that's your limited set of options. Equally in work it was the case where there was limited options. Now we've got a global economy, global community, endless career options. Does that make this, is that, is that exciting or is it challenging or a bit of both?

C (44:03)

Well, I think the first thing is, you know, usually around what you described in the beginning of that, around the world that's mostly the job of men. At least when I was growing up where men would ask women much more often at the bar stance and I always wondered how that actually shaped people's risk preferences. Right. Because men were much more likely to get knocked back early on. So when they were, when they were older they're much maybe more likely to take a punt. And I think what you just described, the kind of dating apps levels the playing field because I think men and women now are much more likely to do the asking. So from an assessment of risk preferences, I think for me that's an incredibly kind of useful natural type of experiment over time.

A (44:39)

I think we'll save a conversation about dating apps for another talk. Let's do it about jobs. It's only my fault, I apologize doing.

C (44:48)

I love that I had to flip it in there. But yes, I think, you know, choice is overwhelming. It really is. And again, the fundamental kind of day to day grind in jobs, even though we have this huge choice and this kind of global economy does actually come down to kind of two things. What do you want to actually spend your time doing on a day to day basis and what are the skills that will allow you get there? And I think that kind of simplifies these choices that are actually in front of us. To be honest, if we kind of scale it back and frame it like that and then really kind of paying attention to whether or not you're actually happy engaging in the activities that you are in. But yeah, I think that information overload does complicate how we actually think about our future in work and in other domains in our life. Like dating.

A (45:36)

Yeah. So I mean that's not unrelated to next question I'm going to ask you that sort of a variant of one that's come in which is around social capital and social networks. So you know, we, we've, we've sent our kids to state, state school because they're going to do perfectly well because they've got, you know, mum and dad that, you know, care for the kids, you know, finances are fine. But a lot of the reason that other parents send their kids to fee paying schools is not anything to do with getting a better education at all in any, you know, sort of measurable sense. But the networks and the contacts that they're going to be creating, they imagine, at least through being an independent school. And you see the same thing, of course, emerging in workplaces too, where people create networks and social capital in a broader sense. What do you have? I'm not sure. There's a question that I'm asking that follows from that. There was probably a clearer question that came in from our audience, but what role do you think that those networks and social capital play? And how can you build those into what you're recommending through Think Big.

B (46:40)

So I think the first thing to say about networks is that they are privileged. So if you happen to be in a group where you are well connected, that is a privilege that you have that would allow you get ahead. So there's no point in denying the power of networks. But I think even with that, there's always a significant amount of things that you can actually do for yourself to keep you moving forward. Once you start moving forward, your networks tend to develop. So the kind of the obstacles and the frictions that you had kind of in your way fall away somewhat. And I think the second thing that I talk a bit about and Think big is actually the evidence where the kind of soft networks that we have or the weak networks that we have, or the weak ties that we have can be just as useful for our careers actually, and can be just as useful as building our future as ones that are really, really strong. So just because you don't necessarily happen to be in the in group, it doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to be at a worse off as compared to somebody who actually has these weak ties. So kind of when I think about the privilege of networks, I think about two things. Firstly, getting people to focus on things that are within their control. And secondly, thinking about the value of weak ties and weak ties that actually might be in your periphery that you can actually reach out to.

A (47:54)

Yeah, good, thank you. I'm sure we got. I'm going to wrap up at 7 o'. Clock. So people are alert to the fact that we've got an hour in total for this session. I want to maybe make it a bit more personal, I guess, for the remaining time that we, that we have, I think. Is there anything through the process of writing this book that you've learned or changed your mind about or has affected you professionally or personally? But I'm particularly interested in the personal journey that you've gone through in this.

B (48:29)

It's really hard because I actually. So I did an interview with the Times and they asked me actually quite a similar question. And it really is hard to actually look retrospectively. I think when I wrote the book, it made much more salient to me just how useful firstly, behavioral science is when thinking about kind of career building in this kind of framework. And I think, you know, I've used some of the insights myself. And, you know, the book was kind of born on the idea where I don't think that there's any one fit solution for anybody. So I'm constantly experimenting on myself, particularly when it comes to my distraction. I tend to get. I tend to get distracted incredibly, a lot. So I have, I think, learned new things through trying out some of the insights in the papers that I actually put in as references into the. Into the book and the techniques that they have described. And I also think it's actually kind of taught me to really think about this idea of this kind of two revolving a door that's constantly revolving. So in a sense that if I put myself out there, there's probably another opportunity that's actually going to come along. So I probably worry less. I think that's something, you know, I've spoken a lot about anticipated loss aversion in the last kind of month or so when promoting the book. And it was really on my mind when I was writing the book. So I think that's. I think that is something that has really helped me. And I think kind of the second thing that has really helped me is kind of speaking kind of up for other people who might actually be finding it hard to get heard in particular moments. And also giving opportunities to people who might not necessarily had. Might not necessarily get an opportunity. And I think kind of as I go forward over the Next, you know, five, 10 years, I hope that's the legacy that kind of stays at me and think big. You know, when I wrote that chapter on the outside, I've already said it was really hard for me to kind of figure out how do you get yourself out of situations if there's these real obstacles in your way? And I realized actually sometimes for me it was other people who helped me. So when I was kind of reflecting back, thinking about, you know, who lent me a hand, and I think being really conscious about paying that forward, which I hoped I did some of that anyway. But now really doing it kind of in a way that has this kind of laser focus.

A (50:41)

Yeah, I think that comes through. And I mean, for what it's worth, I don't know. Of course, we misremember all sorts of things, but I feel like that's become more obvious in you from the process of writing this book. I think it was. I mean, I think you're right. It was there anyway. But I think there's more of that, I think, think coming through now in your. In your work and in how you engage with people and how you think about, you know, bringing on people that might not otherwise have a voice. I think that's. I think that's true. Is there any evidence that you've come across that was. Was different to your belief about what you thought you'd find?

B (51:18)

So you mean kind of studies that I read and said.

A (51:22)

You know, I mean, one of the things that. One of the things that academics are meant to be good at doing is. Is changing their minds when better evidence comes along to change it. Of course, as human beings, we find that incredibly difficult because once we know something to be true, research evidence that supports the belief and dismiss evidence that doesn't. But I just wonder if there's anything that you've had a moment where you thought, oh, that's a surprise.

B (51:46)

Really great question. I mean, I think that in the insights that are in the book, I kind of put forward anyway that some of these are going to work and some of these aren't going to work. So if somebody comes to me and says, I tried Insight nine in chapter three and it didn't work for me, I wouldn't necessarily be that surprised. I think when I was thinking about narratives and kind of the role that they actually play for people. You know, I had read, you know, obviously I had read your book, and I was quite influenced by that, but I hadn't realized just how much the stories that we actually might be telling ourselves might be. Might be holding us back. And kind of really reflecting on your own narratives is an interesting exercise in itself and coming at it from the angle of whether or not someone's actually ready for something or whether or not I actually anticipate failure. So I think that's what surprised me, actually. The role of how you might. The thoughts you might be having for yourself are probably one of the biggest things that are actually holding you back in a particular moment. But I can't think of a. I can't think of a stylized fact that I've changed my mind on. So something that I. So I'm very. I'm a very skeptical reader, and I think this is. This is something that actually holds me Back, I'm not someone who really talks about silver bullets, so I kind of say that's something that is there for the average person, but what about the populations that sit outside the hole? So for me, anytime I read evidence, I see it as it works in that population, but what about the next one? And that's why I worry less about the replication crisis as compared to other. So in some ways, I'm always on the fence and always kind of thinking about what about the other population that we're not seeing? And what about the people who aren't represented in this study?

A (53:23)

No good thing. I mean, I think the narratives thing is the narratives that are created for us as well as by ourselves. Right. The sort of expectations that society places on us, that our parents, that friends or whatever place on us, that norms place on us. I wonder what. Is there anything that firms can do to kind of be more inclusive of different stories, I guess?

B (53:47)

Well, I think you kind of, you know, something you kind of brought up in kind of halfway through the conversation is the idea of culture and the cultures that are created around, you know, different types of people. So it's probably no wonder then, if I'm not the kind of, the type of person of the majority that, you know, you might find yourself sitting in a meeting feeling like an imposter and feeling like you don't belong and feeling like. Like this might not necessarily be the job for you. I think, again, a lot of it actually comes back to inclusion. Inclusion really, really is good for business. And we know it from the theory, we know it from the lab experiments. So it's really weird that we find ourselves wanting to embrace people who are just like us all of the time. So I think from the firm perspective, it's really about kind of getting there. So getting to a place where we recognize that when we're within teams to have the best ideas, we need to be challenging each other, we need to be embracing dissent, and we then also need to have that common goal that we're all aiming for the same thing. And I think putting those structures in place. And one thing that I have a big question about is, is there something else that we can do to put those structures in place that go beyond economic incentives? And I'd love to be here with you in a year and say, the thing I changed my mind about is how powerful the economic incentives are, but at the moment, all the evidence I have suggests that's the case. But I'm really willing to change my mind on that.

A (55:05)

Yeah, I got super. I as we're closing, I don't know whether I've got a super question. I'll just ask. I don't know. I know it's a really challenging question. I'm not sure to answer, so whether to do this near the end, but it's actually coming from someone in LSE careers. So maybe, maybe this is a, this is a good, good person. Ask a question. It says, can you sum up your approach as the metaphor?

B (55:26)

Can I sum up my approach as.

A (55:28)

A metaphor for something, presumably, or of something?

B (55:34)

I can't. I mean, my obvious answer is think big, take small steps of building.

A (55:40)

Absolutely.

B (55:41)

Which isn't a metaphor, but I mean, that's enough.

A (55:44)

It's a good enough job. I, yeah, I, So what are you going to do? So what you're going to do next is are you going to leave the LSE now you've got.

B (55:54)

No, I mean, I think, you know, I think in some ways actually having people who write books that are popular and I mean you must agree with this because you've written two and I've only written one. But having people who've written books that are popular is actually really good for the lse. So the idea that, you know, we take the insights that we kind of give to our students in a way that allows them to become more academically minded and package them in a way that's actually useful for people in the day to day lives, it's really kind of making that connection between what we do and how it's, how it's useful for kind of daily lives. So for me, the book was a really big task and it took a very, very long time. So I'm on the fence about whether there'll be more books, but I'd like to think at some stage in the future the answer is yes. But unless it ends up, unless I end up being the new Harry Potter in a think big franchise, the LSE is probably stuck with me for a while, to be very honest with you. And yeah, I mean, I think to be, and I'm really inspired with the inclusion initiative at the moment at the LSE with the research center. I mean, I mean the people who are working there are fantastic and to just be around them has really kind of given me, has reinvigorated my appetite for kind of getting out in the world and generating impact.

A (57:06)

Brilliant. So listen, I'm going to wrap up on time or maybe just a few moments before. I hope people have enjoyed this. We've had most people stick with us. That's a good Sign. I think Grace, stick with you through this. I should say it's been enjoyable to talk to you. Oh, we're cutting.

B (57:27)

I have one thing to say. They haven't stopped yet.

A (57:31)

Oh, are we still going? Are we still going?

B (57:33)

I would love people to take pictures of the book or themselves with the book and post to me on Twitter. I'm really enjoying that today. And in the absence of meeting you physically, it makes me feel that my book is launched. So if you're willing to do that. My Twitter is GraceLorden underscore. I would love it.

A (57:49)

There would be opportunity.

B (57:51)

I would. Yeah.

A (57:52)

Well, that's good. I mean, it's good. It's good for sale, which is really important. I think there is a really important role. Of course you'd expect me to say this, but there is a really significant role for popular science books by academics at institutions like the lse, getting the academic work in an accessible way for an audience that typically doesn't engage with universities. And maybe we've got some people on this call today, on this session today that would fit into that category. It just remains for me to thank you, Grace. I have really genuinely enjoyed reading this book. I think I'm going to stay at the LSE as well, after having gone through the process of reading that. I wouldn't say I was leaving anyway, would I? I wouldn't tell you all that, but no, I'm not. I'm going to be saying at LSE just like you, and we're going to get more voices heard from different backgrounds and perspectives and we're going to do slowly but surely change the culture to be more inclusive at the LSE and everywhere else beyond.

C (58:51)

I like it.

A (58:51)

Thank you so much for your time.

C (58:52)

Thank you, Paul. Thank you for tonight. I really enjoyed it. You're absolutely amazing. See you soon. Bye.

A (58:58)

See everybody. Have a good evening. Afternoon, morning.