Don’t hold your breath | Deep Water Ep4

Summary

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Deep Water Ep4: Don’t Hold Your Breath – Summary

Episode Overview

In Episode 4 of "Deep Water" from Tortoise Investigates and The Observer, host Lydia Gard delves deeper into the freediving world’s doping scandal. The episode probes the pervasive influence of doping rumors—particularly the use of benzodiazepines (benzos)—on the sport, the culture of secrecy and fear, and the impact of money and professionalism on freediving ethics. Through interviews with coaches, athletes, and anti-doping experts, Gard explores whether freediving’s core values are eroding under pressure and asks if it’s even possible for the sport to remain "clean."

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Community Divided, Rumors Escalating

• Lydia’s Investigation: Lydia has spoken to over 50 freedivers—judges, medics, coaches, and athletes—revealing strong, conflicting opinions about doping and widespread rumor-mongering.
  • "Everyone has a strong opinion on the subject of doping, and everyone has an opinion on the scandal on the Croatians. But much of what I'm hearing is still passed on. Rumor, gossip, and to a certain degree, it's a misinformation cascade." (01:42)
• The community is described as "at war with itself," marked by fear, defensiveness, and reluctance to talk publicly.

2. The ‘Breakthrough’ Voice Note – Benzo Confessions

• Lydia receives a privately sent voice note from top athlete Witomir Mareti discussing his own experimentations with benzos (diazepam).
  • He both warns against using them and admits having tried them himself in competition, paradoxically giving "explicit permission" to experiment. (03:08–05:34)
  • "He talks about wanting to see benzos added to the doping list. He says he's realised that there are so many athletes abusing them." (04:15)
  • "But he also casually says he has tried them a few times himself, including in a pool competition. And he says, if you really want to try it, yeah, you can. Why not? It's not against the law." (04:48)
• This reveals a complex, ambiguous attitude among top figures—publicly anti-doping but privately less rigid.

3. Interview with Boris Spyich: Culture, Corruption, and Money

• Lydia meets Boris Spyich, former Croatian national coach, in Greece. Spyich emphasizes that doping is only a facet of a bigger cultural issue: the encroachment of business, money, and professionalization into the sport.
  • "You are now being very romantic about things and I don't like it. Okay, let me remove the pink sunglasses... PD area is always going to be there. Take any serious sport. It's always a serious [issue]." (07:16)
  • He notes the shift from sport for sport’s sake, to financial motivation: "It became a business...and from that point on, things kind of went south." (10:06)
  • The desire to win—driven by ego, monetary rewards, and social status—is causing athletes to compromise ethics, while the system itself is becoming harder to regulate (09:00–11:27).

Notable Quote:

• "Our problem is not PEDs. Our problem is human nature. And human nature will never change." – Boris Spyich (12:02)

4. Societal & Moral Reflections

• Spyich and Lydia debate whether it's possible to keep any competitive sport truly "clean," given human nature and survival pressures.
  • "If you want to be professional, be ready to eat shit. Be ready to embrace the suck. Be ready to go to the darkest place you can imagine to be the first. And once you are first, ask yourself, was it worth it?" – Boris Spyich (13:11)

5. Allegations, Culture, and the Limits of Regulation

• Lydia recounts direct claims from sources alleging regular benzo use by prominent divers like Witomir and Petar—despite public denials.
• She recognizes, per Boris, that individual doping matters less than the overall culture, which normalizes shortcuts and undermines the sport's integrity (17:08–18:59).
  • "This is about more than doping. It's about the lengths people are willing to go to win, the risks they're willing to take...in the pursuit of glory, money and medals." (17:52)

6. Conversation with Travis Tygart (US Anti-Doping Agency)

• Tygart explains that doping and equipment-related "enhancements" (like altitude tents) occupy a gray area: rules define the line, not nebulous notions of fairness.
  • "I go back to sport is nothing more than agreement to rules... If it's not in the rule, it's not illegal." (21:39–22:48)
• He emphasizes the importance of culture and leadership in establishing standards, and the dangers when sports self-police without external oversight (23:15, 24:30).
  • "The truth eventually is going to come out...the power of the culture...how every individual, if they can muster the bravery and the courage, can change the culture for the good." – Travis Tygart (20:40)
• Whistleblowers are rare because institutions reinforce silence: "The system doesn't want it." (25:37)

7. The Core Dilemma: Human Nature vs. Idealism

• Both Spyich and Tygart assert that athletes, even in grassroots sports, will push to the limits unless structural and cultural change occurs.
  • "Let's not be naive that athletes will walk right up to the line... Do what you do up to the line in order to win." – Travis Tygart (27:12)
  • Lydia reiterates the bleak prognosis for freediving’s future, echoing past warnings: without substantive change, "someone is going to die" because of the culture and lack of enforcement. (28:02)
  • "...the advice from those who are far more hardened to this than me is: don’t hold your breath." (28:32)

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Notable Quotes & Moments with Timestamps

• On the rumor mill and community fracture:
  • "That's indicative of a community at war with itself." – Lydia Gard (02:15)
• On the reach and impact of doping culture:
  • "Most people are not aware how deep this water goes and what future will bring...I think it's about the value of standard of the society. Basically, our society is corrupt." – Boris Spyich (08:33)
• On money entering freediving:
  • "When you bring like money into freediving, it's like anywhere else in the world, a lot of money, people will do anything to get it. At that point, morals become really questionable." – Boris Spyich (10:09)
• On moral complexity and advice to professionals:
  • "If you want to be professional, be ready to eat shit...go to the darkest place you can imagine to be the first. And once you are first, ask yourself, was it worth it?" – Boris Spyich (13:11)
• On the failure to address doping and corruption:
  • "If, you know, people can make rife allegations, have proof, maybe, but the sport sticks its head in the ground and pretends like nothing's going on...detracts from what we’re trying to produce." – Travis Tygart (23:15)
• On whistleblowers:
  • "The system doesn't want it, right?...Whistleblowers are shunned many times." – Travis Tygart (25:37)
• On the inevitability of rule-pushing:
  • "Let's not be naive that athletes will walk right up to the line...Do what you do up to the line in order to win." – Travis Tygart (27:12)
• On sport culture's consequences:
  • "Winning for ego, glory, money or power...it doesn't really matter what the motivation is. If the mindset is to win at all costs, then we've come full circle..." – Lydia Gard (28:02–28:32)

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Key Timestamps

• 02:15 – Lydia on community fracture and rumors
• 03:08–05:34 – Witomir Mareti’s benzo voice note revelation
• 07:16–13:37 – Boris Spyich on culture, corruption, and the impact of money on morals in freediving
• 17:08–18:59 – Direct accounts of substance use by top athletes and the persistence of rumor vs. evidence
• 19:02–24:30 – Travis Tygart on anti-doping, rules, culture, and leadership failures
• 25:37–27:42 – Barriers to whistleblowing and why athletes remain silent
• 28:02–28:32 – Lack of safeguards and warnings about freediving’s future

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Episode Tone

• Reflective, Investigative, Candid: Lydia’s reporting is marked by honesty and self-doubt, seeking truth amid gossip.
• Realistic but Sobering: Guests emphasize the inevitability of cheating and moral compromise where winning is at stake.
• Nuanced: Explores not just “who is cheating,” but “why does it matter,” and “can any sport, anywhere, stay clean?”

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In Summary

Episode 4 of Deep Water takes listeners from private confessions to philosophical debates, questioning whether it’s ever possible to keep freediving (or any sport) pure in the face of mounting financial pressures and a culture of silence. The doping scandal becomes a lens for exploring the deeper, more troubling human and societal impulses that shape all athletic competition. The episode ends with a warning—don’t hold your breath for real change.

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Transcript

[Lydia Gard]

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[Lydia Gard]

All right, well, have a lovely evening and thank you again for your. By now, I've spoken to more than 50 freedivers, from judges and medics to coaches and athletes. When this began, I was calling people I know personally and closing each conversation with the same who should I speak to next? And as I followed up on those leads across every time zone on the map, one thing has become clear. Everyone has a strong opinion on the subject of doping, and everyone has an opinion on the scandal on the Croatians. But much of what I'm hearing is still passed on. Rumor, gossip, and to a certain degree, it's a misinformation cascade. Until one afternoon I'm sitting at home wrapping up an interview, and a message appears on my phone from a source. Word has spread that I'm investigating the scandal. I've received several unsolicited messages across email, Instagram and WhatsApp. I've probably heard from a dozen people through the grapevine. Some have interesting new thoughts to add, others just want to vent. And that's indicative of a community at war with itself. So I'm assuming this will be more of the same. But this particular message is different. It's a forwarded voice note.

[Boris Spyich]

It's not really doping, but.

[Lydia Gard]

And I'm not sure.

[Boris Spyich]

I mean, it would take away the pain, but it could also take away your sharpness.

[Lydia Gard]

I've listened to enough of his interviews and YouTube videos to recognize instantly who's speaking. It's Witomir Mareti, and he's talking about benzos in a voice note he sent to a less experienced diver. This feels like a breakthrough, an insight into how he speaks about this sort of thing in private. The way it starts, it feels like it's going to unravel into something. A confession, perhaps. He talks about his experience of taking diazepam, a type of benzodiazepine, in a competition dive. But what's fascinating is he says that they didn't work for him and he discourages this person from using them. He says they take away your sharpness shortcut, the sense of accomplishment you get from mastering deep dives. What's more, he talks about wanting to see benzos added to the doping list. He says he's realised that there are so many athletes abusing them. This tallies with his public denials of doping and the way he condemned a former student, David Kustich, who was banned for a year after testing positive for testosterone. He referred to that incident as one of the worst coaching experiences in my career. And yet, sometime after sending this voice note, he's carrying three brands, three different strengths of benzos to Vertical Blue. He's a top athlete, a prolific coach, and in his message, he ostensibly warns against trying benzos. But he also casually says he has tried them a few times himself, including in a pool competition. And he says, if you really want to try it, yeah, you can. Why not? It's not against the law. As a coach, you aren't just responsible for developing an athlete's technical skills, you're developing them as people, their values, attitudes and behaviours. And while that message is mixed, it's also explicit permission for new divers to experiment and proof to me that the ink in the water is spreading. I'm Lydia Gard and from Tortoise Investigates and the observer. This is Deep water Episode Episode 4. Don't hold your breath.

[Boris Spyich]

Mic check. Mic check.

[Lydia Gard]

This is Boris Spyich. When I started this investigation, I didn't know his name. But several people along the way have suggested that I speak to him. Apparently, he knows a lot. He's connected. What or to whom, I don't know. I have no idea yet which category he falls into. Does he have something interesting to say or does he just want to vent? But he does want to meet in person, so we'll just start off with an introduction. But of course, I don't know what you're telling me. So we'll get through these questions as quickly as we can, nice and concise. I've mentally prepared for Boris to tell me something explosive, maybe offer an eyewitness account or slip me an envelope with sensitive documents. So we meet in a hotel in Kalamata in Greece and find an empty conference room at the back of the building, away from prying eyes. And when we start the interview, the sun is pouring through the windows. By the time we leave, it will be dark. Boris is a Croatian Freediver, previously the national team coach. Now he lives in Kuwait and coaches from there. He says he can give us insights on doping because of his proximity to top tier athletes and the mechanics of the sport as both an athlete and a coach. I tell him about how I started this investigation because I'm tired of all the gossip, the conjecture around what's doping, what's performance enhancing and whether it matters, how the scandal itself has just corrupted the community. I love. When were you first made aware of any kind of doping allegations in sport?

[Boris Spyich]

Early. Early.

[Lydia Gard]

Like before I start the interview with the basics. But Boris is impatient.

[Boris Spyich]

You are now being very romantic about things and I don't like it. Okay, let me remove the pink sunglasses. You have. You are having. You have to deal with professionals, right? And you come from a perspective of a romantic person. This is what I want to focus on. Okay, let's clear this area. PD area is always going to be there. Take any serious sport. Any. Any serious sport, it's always a serious.

[Lydia Gard]

He thinks the community's focus on doping, PEDs, performance enhancing drugs is too narrow, that we're all zoomed in on the wrong thing, missing the bigger picture.

[Boris Spyich]

The only thing is the guys that are coming right now, they know more about the sports. Literally, they know more about the sports.

[Lydia Gard]

Do you mean Widmar and Petta?

[Boris Spyich]

They're irrelevant. They are pushing themselves.

[Lydia Gard]

It's not what I'm expecting him to say. For Boris, rooting out individuals is not the answer or what he's interested in. Instead, he starts to lay out A tangled web of information. He's clearly extremely bright and very invested. There are many layers to his story and I'm trying to untangle it in real time while understanding the relevance. Some of it's useful, some is not, but he's very clear on one. This is about something more significant and I need to zoom out.

[Boris Spyich]

Most people are not aware how deep this water goes and what future will bring. I think it's not about PDS anymore. I think it's about the value of standard of the society. Basically, our society is corrupt. We cannot negate the existence of bad examples everywhere around us. Wherever there's business, there's going to be corrupt people.

[Lydia Gard]

Okay, so if you had to put your finger on what's really shifted in the community.

[Boris Spyich]

Money. Definitely. There is. No, there's not. Like, people are becoming professionals and they're earning a lot more money.

[Lydia Gard]

It's funny, the idea that money is the corrupting influence rather than doping is new to me. Remember back in episode one, Martin Petrus brushed off the idea that money was a motivation for free divers. True enough. For most freediving instructors, coaches or athletes, it's a sideshow. To make a full living out of it, you have to hustle hard. In terms of professional sports, freediving is like the pretty young cousin in the family. Little or no money. Posting sexy content on Instagram and making up the rules as they go along. But if you're clever, there are several potential revenue streams, from sponsorship deals to remuneration for medals, running retreats, training camps, selling coaching programs and hosting competitions. Okay, we're not in the same league as sports like football or cycling or golf, but it's enough to be significant, especially if you hail from a country where the average wage is low. You could arguably make a very good living from it.

[Boris Spyich]

It became a business.

[Lydia Gard]

Okay.

[Boris Spyich]

And from that point on, things kind of went south. Not all. There's still really good examples in Croatia that people don't know about. But, you know, when you bring the big money into the big money, we are talking about freediving, big money. When you bring like money into freediving, it's like anywhere else in the world, a lot of money, people will do anything to get it. And at that point, morals become really questionable, what to do and how to do it. Right?

[Lydia Gard]

Yeah. So I have heard that there's money involved in winning records, winning medals. Sorry, In Croatia, which doesn't exist in a lot of other nationalities. But also for the team, the incentive to win is a very individual thing. For starters, there's ego, pure and simple. The desire for public recognition, followers and likes, social status. Then there are the awards, medals, tangible symbols of achievement, a sense of personal satisfaction, of a challenge overcome. I'm no psychologist, but I doubt that these motivations are mutually exclusive. They overlap. But the sport is slowly becoming professionalized in its attitude towards money and sponsorship. And in order to capitalise on that, you need podium positions.

[Boris Spyich]

You tell me now, what would you do in this situation? You have kids.

[Lydia Gard]

What would I do in what situation?

[Boris Spyich]

Yeah, let's say your kid wants to pursue a career of Freediver.

[Lydia Gard]

Well, I've always allowed them to do it recreationally, but I've taught them the safety protocols. But if they ever wanted to get into competitive freediving, I would hope. I would hope that by the time they're old enough to get involved like that, they would have enough of a moral compass from our upbringing and our values. Because you come to anything, whether it's your sport, your job, your life, your relationships, you bring your own moral compass.

[Boris Spyich]

Perfect. And our counter argument, put yourself in a more poor environment. Put yourself in an environment where it's easy to lose bread on the table. And what do you think your son or daughter would do when he's 20 something and he needs. He is just. He's missing just this a little bit to put the food on the table. Or even worse, put them like they're serious athletes. They've been competing for years. They have a brand to, you know, to show to the others. And they are missing just a little bit to guarantee themselves the next period of grace. You see what our problem is? Our problem is not PEDs. Our problem is human nature. And human nature will never change.

[Lydia Gard]

His point. The very idea of a sport staying clean from doping or from corruption is naive, unrealistic. Boris the philosopher.

[Boris Spyich]

So maybe what we can do is diversify two things. Professionals from people who like Freediving.

[Lydia Gard]

Boris the Politician.

[Boris Spyich]

And this is probably the best advice I can give to anyone. If you want to be professional, be ready to eat shit. Be ready to embrace the suck. Be ready to break your own bones and your own opinions and your own everything. Be ready to go to the darkest place you can imagine to be the first. And once you are first, ask yourself, was it worth it?

[Lydia Gard]

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[Boris Spyich]

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[Lydia Gard]

Using performance enhancing drugs. If it's happening as some people suspect, is just a shortcut, albeit an ethically and morally problematic shortcut to winning. And while this particular shortcut is the antithesis of what sport stands for, fair play, pure human ability. It's a means to an end and not the end itself. And what Boris says leads me into the centre of a moral maze.

[Boris Spyich]

You know what I have issues with? I have issues with my 16 year old boys coming to me and they're looking at the fucking best freedivers in the world talking about their superhumans. And I know who they are. I know what they are and I know it's all shit. I don't know what to tell you about the romantic part of the freediving anymore, because I'm part of the other side, so called professionals. Which is sad to be honest, but in general I think for the sport what's going to happen is we going to overcome it. I'm not sure what's going to be left after all these peds, candles and everything. I do hope our heroes will be different. This is what I do hope.

[Lydia Gard]

On the flight home from Greece, I listen back to some of my previous calls, messages and voice notes. I'm trying to collect my thoughts. I send a quick message to a source close to Vitamir. I ask if it's possible that aside from his own admission of having tried benzos a few times, that Vitamir is actually clean. They answer immediately. They say he brags about taking Diazepam for breakfast and encouraged other people he trained to do so. They say he loves pills and takes anything if he finds it useful. I ask if that's substantiated, if they've seen it with their own eyes, and the reply is yes. They also say that they once saw Petar take six Diazepam before a competition dive and have an underwater blackout in the pool and afterwards they had a good laugh about it, allegations which Witimir denies and so far Petar hasn't responded to. I reread Fatemir's statement after the scandal, the one where he I've always adhered to principles of fair play and clean sport, valuing the integrity of competition above all, I reread the article where Witmir is quoted as saying, not only have we never used them, we strongly advocated against it with the athletes that have confessed to us to using them. And I realise Boris is right. Our sport is at a critical juncture. The problem is layered. This is about more than doping. It's about the length that people are willing to go to to win, the risks they're willing to take for themselves, their students and ultimately their sport in the pursuit of glory, money and medals. Both my coach Mela and Gary McGrath have told me that freediving needs outside help and personally, I need some perspective. What would you say that you are most well known for.

[Boris Spyich]

Being the mean dad at home or something is probably.

[Lydia Gard]

The Travis Tygart is being modest. He's the CEO of the United States Anti Doping Agency. They advocate for clean athletes and clean sport and he is in fact best known for being the man who caught Lance Armstrong. And brilliant soundbites like winners never cheat and cheaters Never win. In all seven of your Tour de France victories, did you ever take banned substances or blood dope?

[Boris Spyich]

Yes.

[Lydia Gard]

When I first contacted Travis, I wanted to ask him one simple how do you catch a dopa? But the more I've investigated, the more my focus has changed. Let me clarify. I'm not making a comparison between Lance Armstrong and the Croatian freedivers or his role as an international doping investigator and mine as a journalist. But our conversation illustrated to me that in sport, doping allegations do more than rat out the cheats. They undermine the entire community. If our top divers, our social media influencers, leading coaches are potentially cheating, is it simply unrealistic to hope that the sport will stay clean? It took Travis's team and a two year criminal and federal investigation, a long list of whistleblowers and a burden of evidence to get to that confession. And let's face it, that will not happen. In freediving, there's neither the money nor the power. But what if Boris is right that what matters isn't the individual, but the culture within the sport?

[Boris Spyich]

The truth eventually is going to come out. And so I think it's probably the number one lesson is the power of the culture, but how culture is dictated by individuals and how every individual, if they can muster the bravery and the courage, can change the culture for the good.

[Lydia Gard]

I tell him about the fault lines in freediving and what my investigation has uncovered so far. The difficulties that stem from benzos being considered by many as performance enhancing, but not on the Wade list, which means they're not classed as doping. So it comes down to the personal, moral and ethical codes that we live and dive with.

[Boris Spyich]

I was a philosophy major in undergrad, so we could philosophize about it.

[Lydia Gard]

So was I.

[Boris Spyich]

Well, there we go. So we could have a full on debate, you know, philosophical discussion around the ethics of doing something that society doesn't accept or might argue would be dangerous. I go back to sport is nothing more than agreement to rules.

[Lydia Gard]

He told me a story about altitude tents. These tents are designed to mimic the conditions of high altitude by controlling the oxygen levels inside. Athletes can use them to train or sleep in.

[Boris Spyich]

There was a debate. Should they be prohibited? Yes. They give a performance enhancement. Increase your red blood cells, your oxygen carrying capacity. Not everyone has access to them. If you stay in them too long or have them turned up too high, you can get, you know, health effects. So they arguably meet the criteria, if not flat out meet the criteria to be prohibited in the on the WADA code. But they are not. So am I going to say someone has is a cheater or a problem or is not ethical if they use altitude tents? Absolutely not. Because I know how competition is, and competition is a. Is a function. It's a construction of rules. So if it's not in the rule, it's not illegal, then. All right, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not willing to say that's unethical or shouldn't be done. That's athletes doing what athletes do, which is to try to gain a performance any way they think they can.

[Lydia Gard]

The way Travis sees it, allegations about benzos are simply not an anti doping issue. A month ago, I would have found that concept unfathomable, but I'm beginning to get it right now. All the focus is on this particular group of athletes. Are they or aren't they? Can it be proven that in a way that is secondary? Because in a few years, they will be gone and the memory of their names will fade, but the culture will remain.

[Boris Spyich]

If, you know, people can make rife allegations, have proof, maybe, but the sport sticks its head in the ground and pretends like nothing's going on, whether it's judging problems that are corrupt, whether it's doping allegations, that then necessarily detracts from what we're trying to produce. So it's always been, I believe, in the sport's best interest to get in front of this and cure this problem before it becomes a problem. Some sports are reluctant to do it and it's too late. Like in cycling, it became too late.

[Lydia Gard]

That's certainly been a criticism of ada, one of the two governing bodies, along with cmas, that AEDA had looked the other way, taken too long to act permissive or reluctant. That's a question for the AIDA president, Sasha Yeremik, who I have arranged to speak to. But on balance, Travis argues, it sends a message. Some sports, he says, have to hit rock bottom before they address it. And he asks an important question. Who are the leaders in a sport like Freediving? Because fighting the corruption of a small grassroots sport is about the rules and who sets them.

[Boris Spyich]

There's a. There's a lot of power and money in sport. And people, whether they're in sport or, you know, making profiting off of people in sport, don't want necessarily the truth coming out if that means it's gonna destroy the profit making stream or the story or the inspiration in their eyes. And that's why it's so important to have independent organizations. You know, I've termed it the fox guarding the hen house. It Would be impossible to have, you know, the fox guarding the hen house effectively, because you would never want to, you know, have to wipe away seven Tours de France. Right. Like that was a terrible day for everyone who loves sport.

[Lydia Gard]

I wonder, particularly in freediving, where there's so much overlap between the competition athletes and the volunteers in governance, is there a safe place to blow the whistle? Is it even realistic to expect the sport to create, enforce and safeguard their own rules? And the answer once again is not yet. So in which case, what do you think puts athletes off from speaking up?

[Boris Spyich]

Yeah, the system doesn't want it, right? Like it's. We know that, you know, whistleblowers are shunned many times. It's unfortunate the system doesn't want it.

[Lydia Gard]

This is critical in my experience of investigating this story. It's the people with the most information, those who've been closest to those at the center of the scandal who don't want to speak up. And there are many more who won't speak to me at all because they say they have too much to lose personally and professionally. And this omerta simply enables more of the same.

[Boris Spyich]

But look, I appreciate it's a hard thing to convince people of. The easier path for sure, is to just walk away. And look, athletes don't want to put themselves. Athletes are in sport to compete, right? They're not there to worry about the sport politics or the governors of the sport doing the right thing, but stay in it. The worst thing you can do is quit.

[Lydia Gard]

And there are plenty of top athletes who are very comfortable complaining to one another about the chasm in the community. But they don't want to speak out because they're trying to maintain their peace and power. Focus on performance, not negativity. They hope it will resolve itself. But more alarmingly, there are a few athletes who've recently told me that if this situation doesn't change, they plan to quit altogether. Meanwhile, faith in the sport from the athletes and the spectators continues to erode.

[Boris Spyich]

Let's not be naive that athletes will walk right up to the line. You've heard the term play up to the referee. I mean, my kids were taught that by their coaches in 10 year old soccer, play up to the ref, you know, play up to the ref. And again, I'm not saying that's right. I wish the culture wasn't that way. But hyper competitive cultures, even at 10 year old soccer are. Do what you do up to the line in order to win.

[Lydia Gard]

It's human nature, right? It's human nature. This is what we're up against the.

[Boris Spyich]

Idea that it's, you know, the journey and the process. And of course, you know, to my kids in our education programs, those are really important components. But at the end of the day, people are raw competitors that want to win in those moments and they'll do anything sometimes if they think they can get away with it to win.

[Lydia Gard]

Winning for ego, glory, money or power, it doesn't really matter what the motivation is. If the mindset is to win at all costs, then we've come full circle to what Gary McGrath said in episode one, that worst case scenario that someone is going to die because the culture, the rules, the mechanisms aren't in place yet for anything to substantially change. And the advice from those who are far more hardened to this than me is don't hold your breath. Coming up in episode five of Deep Water. I saw the clip and to be honest with you, it kind of turned.

[Boris Spyich]

My stomach a little bit. I saw the blood and I turned off. I was a bit outraged. I don't see that there is an issue issue of doping in freediving. I see that there is issue of.

[Lydia Gard]

Doping in freediving, but on social networks or in podcasts, Deep Water is reported by me, Lydia Gard. The producer is Gary Marshall. Music supervision by Carla Patela Sound design by Rowan Bishop Podcast artwork by Lola Williams Fact checking by Katie Gunning Script editing by Kerry Thomas. The executive producer is Basha Cummings.

[Boris Spyich]

Hello, it's Gary here. I'm the producer of Deep Water. Before I tell you a bit more about how you can listen to the rest of the series, we have a house notice you might have seen some changes to our feeds, and that's because we're now bringing our Tortoise Investigate series to you from our new home, the Observer. It's the world's oldest Sunday newspaper where you can listen to and read incredible journalism every day, seven days a week. So if you're enjoying this podcast, you can listen to all six episodes today by subscribing to the observer and listening on the brand new observer app. By becoming an observer subscriber, you can also get early access to all our investigations, our premium food and puzzle newsletters, and much, much more. If you'd like to find out more, you can visit observer.co.uk subscribe thank you for listening.

[Lydia Gard]

Hey guys, it's Paige from Giggly Squad. And if you're anything like me, holiday shopping has officially started. And you know where I'm going. Ulta Beauty. They have the cutest gift sets right.

[Boris Spyich]

Now, like the Sol de Janeiro Shea.

[Lydia Gard]

Rosa and Cheer Perfume Mist Trio.

[Boris Spyich]

It smells so good.

[Lydia Gard]

I've been misting it everywhere. On me, on the street, on my pillow. It's a whole vibe. I'm obsessed with the Tarte Kindness Cafe Collector set. It's packed with everyday makeup must haves and it's honestly too cute to wrap. And if you need a cozy little self care moment, the Moroccan Oil Hand Care Essentials Kit is luxe, hydrating and smells delicious. Don't worry if you can't decide right now, an Ulta Beauty Gift Card is the perfect gift for everyone. So whether you're gifting your bestie or yourself, make the season yours and head to Ulta Beauty. Today, Ulta Beauty Gifting happens here.

[Boris Spyich]

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[Lydia Gard]

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[Boris Spyich]

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[Lydia Gard]

Literally everything.

[Boris Spyich]

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[Lydia Gard]

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[Boris Spyich]

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