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- [00:00]
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- [00:30]
Career Coach
It's time to come clean with yourself. Let's be completely honest. Are you happy with your job? Like, really happy? The unfortunate fact is that a huge number of people can't say yes to that. Far too many of us are stuck in a job we've outgrown or one we never wanted in the first place. But still we stick it out and we give reasons. Like, what if the next move is even worse? I've already put years into this place. I can't afford to take a wrong step. And maybe the most common one. Isn't everyone kind of miserable at work?
- [00:58]
Carola Vinuessa
But.
- [00:58]
Career Coach
But there's a difference between reasons for staying and excuses for not leaving. It's time to get unstuck. It's time for Strawberry Me. They match you with a certified career coach who helps you go from where you are to where you actually want to be. Your coach helps you get clear on your goals, create a plan, build your confidence, and keeps you accountable along the way. So don't leave your career to chance. Take action and own your future with a professional coach in your corner. Go to Strawberry Me Career to claim a special offer. That's Strawberry Me Me Career.
- [01:34]
Rachel Sylvester
Hello, it's Rachel here. I'm the reporter on the Lab Detective. Thank you for listening. If you're enjoying this podcast, you can listen to all episodes today by subscribing to the observer plus on Apple podcasts or Spotify, or by downloading the Tortoise app. And you can listen to our previous investigations right here on Tortoise Investigates from the Observer.
- [02:03]
Carola Vinuessa
The Observer.
- [02:08]
Rachel Sylvester
Last time on the Lab Detective, the prosecution was offering a compelling.
- [02:13]
Carola Vinuessa
And a unitary explanation. These children have been murdered.
- [02:17]
Rachel Sylvester
And the best that defense could do was say, well, we're not so sure they have been. But nor can we turned to each.
- [02:24]
Career Coach
Other saying what about Calm2?
- [02:27]
Carola Vinuessa
It was just Calm2 because it was one of perhaps three dozen genes that had already been proven to be linked with sudden cardiac death in infancy. But if you see a variant that has never been seen before, it has the likelihood of being lethal because it suggests it has arisen recently in evolution and it yet hasn't been removed or weeded out. So these are the kind of variants you're looking for when you're looking for a cause of death in a child. A novel variant never seen before.
- [03:09]
Rachel Sylvester
Scrolling through that vast list of genes on their laptops, Carola Vinuessa and Todor Aarsoff realized that their early suspicions were right. They thought that hidden in Kathleen Folbig's DNA, there might be a genetic explanation for the deaths of her four young children, something that would prove her innocence. And what they were looking at on their screens was the first bit of evidence that supported that theory.
- [03:38]
Carola Vinuessa
Look, natural selection removes variants that are harmful. So if a variant is harmful or lethal, it's very unlikely that the carrier, the person that has that variant will survive, survive to adulthood and reproduce and spread the variant.
- [03:55]
Rachel Sylvester
Kathleen is a carrier of one of these harmful variants, a mutation of the CALM2 gene. And she's a rare case. She survived into adulthood without any life threatening symptoms. And she went on to have four children with no way of knowing that she might have passed that variant onto any one of them. The scientists dug into the research that already existed about CALM2 variants. CALM2 is one of three genes in the carmodulin family which help regulate the heart's expansions and contractions. It turned out that other mutations were associated with severe cardiac disorders and sudden death in infancy. So did you have a gut instinct about what might have happened when you found that?
- [04:46]
Carola Vinuessa
Yes, I think both of us thought, well, if the children have this variant, one or more, they could have died from a cardiac arrhythmia. You don't normally have these very strong suspicions, but this one, just for you to understand, for us, it was quite obvious that if this was in the children, this would pose potentially a significant threat.
- [05:07]
Rachel Sylvester
Just a couple of days after Carolla and Todor made their discovery, they got in touch with Kathleen's lawyers. They told them what they'd found and what needed to happen next. A full DNA analysis of the children. The progress they'd made was clearly significant. But without identifying the same gene in the children, it would be inconsequential. They knew they could access biological samples for two of the children, Patrick and Sarah. But for Laura and Caleb, they were relying on tiny drops of blood taken from a heel prick, a simple procedure that happens in many Western countries just after birth. The results of those had been filed away as part of the children's medical records.
- [05:54]
Carola Vinuessa
So in Australia, those Cards have been maintained for, you know, at least over 30 years, which is remarkable. And, you know, it was possible to extract DNA from these one drop of blood that has been stored dry and obtain good quality DNA to do sequencing.
- [06:16]
Rachel Sylvester
It's incredible. So the DNA was of sufficient quality to then carry out the whole sequencing?
- [06:23]
Carola Vinuessa
Remarkably, yes.
- [06:25]
Rachel Sylvester
So what did you find?
- [06:27]
Carola Vinuessa
So we found that the two daughters, the ones that had suffered the infections, the respiratory tract infection and the myocarditis, had the CALM 2 variant. The boys who had had the respiratory difficulties and the epilepsy did not.
- [06:43]
Rachel Sylvester
Two of the four children had inherited that potentially lethal novel variant in the gene. Two had not. But the boys already had other conditions which could explain their sudden deaths. It was a momentous breakthrough. Genetics had uncovered a hidden truth. The lab detectives had discovered crucial evidence that could overturn a murder conviction. In the excitement of this part of the story, it's easy to skim over the fact that at the very moment Carolla was processing this brand new development, Kathleen had been languishing in jail for 15 years.
- [07:28]
Kathleen Folbig
The legal system likes to think they know everything. Well, they don't.
- [07:33]
Rachel Sylvester
After more than a decade of darkness, science had sparked a flicker of light. Kathleen finally had something that could be used to prove her innocence. And in a perfect world, what happened next should have been simple. But of course it wasn't. Because even with this incredible development, it certainly still had to be tested in a court of law. The mere existence of the genetic evidence was not enough to overturn Kathleen's conviction. Time might have passed, but these would be the same courtrooms that had been laced with misogyny and displayed a concerning lack of scientific understanding in the past. The question then was, how far had the justice system traveled in the last 15 years? So what was the process when Carolla had found that gene? What then happened to your case?
- [08:26]
Kathleen Folbig
It steamrolled then because it was like you've got all these scientists saying, this is data, this is proof. You can't actually argue with this, even though the law and the legal system tried. I said, because to try to get the legal system and scientists working together seemed to turn into some sort of a problem.
- [08:44]
Rachel Sylvester
I'm Rachel Sylvester and from Tortoise Investigates, this is the Lab Detective. Episode three, Science versus the Law. Now might be a good moment for a recap on Kathleen's case, because nothing about what happens next is straightforward for Kathleen or for Carola. Remember that when Kathleen's first three children died, there was no police investigation. An autopsy found that Kathleen's firstborn, Caleb died of natural causes from sudden Infant death syndrome. And her second child, Patrick had died from complications linked to his epilepsy. So there was already a potentially innocent explanation for their deaths. Sarah also died from sids and the post mortem of Laura had detected a heart problem, but her cause of death was ultimately written up as undetermined. Now Carolla's work was filling the gaps. The variant of the CALM2 gene was present in both the girls, which was likely to have been the catalyst for Sarah's sudden death and could also explain the heart condition in Laura.
- [10:04]
Carola Vinuessa
I remember when I first told her on the phone that, you know, we had found a variant that she carried and we thought could explain the death of her daughters.
- [10:13]
Rachel Sylvester
After spending years wondering why her children had died, Kathleen had a phone call in prison from Carolla that provided her with a possible answer.
- [10:23]
Carola Vinuessa
I remember her saying, you know what? I killed my children. And she said, after all, it was me that passed this variant. And for her, that was quite upsetting as well to realize that that had happened and it hadn't crossed my mind really that that would be her reaction. And that's probably why, you know, genetic counseling is so important and these conversations are terrible because you only have six minutes to talk to someone in prison, right on any particular day.
- [10:51]
Rachel Sylvester
Kathleen is of course relieved to hear that there's an explanation, but there's also a deep sadness that accompanies this new knowledge. The idea that she unknowingly passed this deadly gene to two of her children.
- [11:06]
Kathleen Folbig
Double edged sword for me, I said, because that was, you know, here I am saying, I didn't do anything, I'm innocent, I haven't killed my children, and yet I go and pass on a gene that did. I said, so I had a lot of soul searching and figuring out how I was going to have that sit. You know, you can't help your genes though. You can't help. You can't help what you don't know, you know, So I had to sort of settle with that.
- [11:31]
Rachel Sylvester
That must be such a sort of bittersweet moment.
- [11:33]
Kathleen Folbig
It is, yes. Yeah, yeah, it is. On one hand it's given me the, so a big sort of off the shoulder relief that there's answers. So that was great. But, yeah, but to know that I carried and passed that on, that was, yeah, you know, unfortunate.
- [11:50]
Rachel Sylvester
Carolla told Kathleen's lawyers what she'd found. For them it was the new evidence they needed to move the case forward.
- [11:59]
Carola Vinuessa
Within a week of us sending that letter to the lawyers, I received a letter from the crown of New South Wales asking me to be part of a genetics team that would form part of a new legal inquiry into Kathleen Fulwick's convictions and would consider, amongst other things, a possible genetic cause.
- [12:20]
Rachel Sylvester
The wheels were turning. Over three weeks in early 2019, 16 years after Kathleen had been convicted, a judicial inquiry was held. It was motivated by medical advances and growing understanding of Sudden Infant death Syndrome. The safety of Kathleen's conviction was going to be reviewed. Carolla wrote up her findings in a report saying that the novel Calm 2 variant was likely pathogenic. In other words, it could have caused the children's deaths. But a rival team of scientists appointed by the inquiry to test the arguments disputed this. They concluded that the new variant was of uncertain significance on the grounds that there was no categorical proof that the mutation was dangerous. So there was a fundamental clash about how the science should be interpreted by the legal system. Carolla believed that her finding simply had to raise reasonable doubt about whether Kathleen had killed her children. As a mother, she couldn't bear to ignore the new evidence, which suggested that at least two of the children might have died of natural causes. The other geneticists argued that what was needed was near certainty that the mutation had caused the children's deaths. Aside from the science, the new inquiry was also an opportunity for Kathleen. While she'd been in prison, she hadn't spoken about her case. Now she was going to be cross examined, specifically about the diaries.
- [14:04]
Kathleen Folbig
It was the first time that I'd spoke. The first inquiry was the first time I spoke about my journals. But the process of talking about them was aggressive, adversarial.
- [14:15]
Rachel Sylvester
Kathleen's lawyers argued that what Carolla's team had uncovered could change the interpretation of the journals, but particularly those damning entries which remain the key circumstantial evidence that pointed to Kathleen's guilt.
- [14:29]
Kathleen Folbig
I may as well have been back on trial because it was incredibly nasty at points, at times, but there was a difference then, you know, like Cath 2000, 2003 was not paying attention. Cath 20, 18, 19, that's a different matter, very much paying attention. So you get me up on a stand then, and I was sort of like, you know, you can throw that at me as much as you like, I'm not telling. No.
- [14:51]
Rachel Sylvester
She was asked around 50 times by the prosecution team if she killed her children. Each time she said she hadn't. The cross examination was brutal. At times, Kathleen sobbed. She told the barrister, no, I didn't kill my children. And those diaries are a record of just how depressed and how much trouble I was having. So what happened?
- [15:15]
Carola Vinuessa
Look, it was July, and I remember a call from Dave telling me that the judge had found that the inquiry had reaffirmed her guilt. He had given more weight to the diaries, and he hadn't been persuaded that this variant was a reasonable explanation for the girl's deaths.
- [15:42]
Rachel Sylvester
In July 2019, Reginald Blanche, the judicial officer presiding over the inquiry, found that there was no reasonable doubt over Kathleen's convictions. The judge chose to put more emphasis on the circumstantial evidence than the new questions that had been raised by genetics. In fact, it was worse than that. He concluded that the evidence which had emerged at the inquiry made Kathleen's guilt even more certain. He said he found her explanations about the diaries simply unbelievable. And to Carolla's dismay, he concluded that he preferred the expertise of the rival team of scientists to her own detailed and careful research. Carolla couldn't believe the findings. That night, she woke up in tears and Kathleen was stuck in jail. Her first opportunity to apply for parole would be in 2028, almost a decade later.
- [16:46]
Kathleen Folbig
So I did have quite a bit of despair after that because I just sort of thought, I've got nowhere to go now and I'm stuck.
- [16:54]
Rachel Sylvester
So did you at that point feel convinced there'd been a real miscarriage of justice because you felt you'd proved the science?
- [17:01]
Carola Vinuessa
I did. Right. I was very concerned and I felt there was a problem with the legal system understanding complex medical evidence and complex scientific evidence. So I remember thinking, well, what can we do?
- [17:18]
Kathleen Folbig
But the bottom line for us was, this is proof. You know, you can't go past actual science and proof. And we never understood why it was.
- [17:25]
Carola Vinuessa
Taking so long, particularly, you know, in a case like this where you feel there's been a miscarriage of justice. Right. And that science can solve it. So I just couldn't stop just because we had heard that a judge didn't find the evidence convincing. As a scientist, you think, okay, how can it be more convincing? What else can we do? And science can do that, right? It's something that sometimes medicine can't. But science can get to the bottom of things. So if there's something else that you can do, you do it right? This is what drives us scientists, right? We're not driven by the money. There's not a lot of money to be made in science. But you do want to get to the bottom of things. And if once you are convinced that something is, you know, has an answer, you want it to be understood. And I thought it was a question of science not being understood or not being heard.
- [18:18]
Rachel Sylvester
For Carola, it was infuriating. She'd built a career on scientific perseverance, on following the facts wherever they led her, sometimes at great personal expense. She has an obsessive streak. It's what makes her such a talented researcher. So she kept digging. She decided to enlist a specialist biochemist in Denmark. He ran some more tests which demonstrated that under lab conditions, this new CARM2 mutation was as damaging as other calmodulin variants that had already been linked to sudden infant deaths. The scientific evidence was mounting. By March 2021, almost 100 scientists had signed a petition calling for Kathleen to.
- [19:11]
Carola Vinuessa
Be pardoned, including, you know, three Nobel Prize winners and endorsed by the Academy of Science. And this was quite, quite influential because the media, you know, widely disseminated these findings and the narrative around her conviction started to change in the public.
- [19:34]
Rachel Sylvester
Right, and how important was that, do you think?
- [19:36]
Carola Vinuessa
Look, I think it was key because, you know, many of these arguments are won on the court of public opinion, and once the public opinion starts changing, the legal system finds it easier to make a finding of, you know, innocence. So I think it played a huge role, not just with the public, but with Kathleen herself. Right.
- [20:00]
Rachel Sylvester
As opinions started to shift among the public, the same thing happened inside the prison walls.
- [20:06]
Kathleen Folbig
Staff walking up and saying, what are you even still doing here? Like, not understanding why I was even still inside. Inmates who might have been abusing me the week before, seeing things on TV or reading things or having things explained to them, then turn around and, you know, pat me on the back and saying, oh, congratulations. It's about time, you know, this sort of change of attitude, going from toxic negative to positive and a bit more supporting, that was quite the eye opener. So it certainly, it certainly changed how I was treated.
- [20:42]
Rachel Sylvester
The petition argued that the new evidence on the CALM2 variant raised reasonable doubt about whether Kathleen had killed all four of her children. It said that to keep Kathleen in prison would set a dangerous precedent because it would mean that cogent medical and scientific evidence could simply be ignored in preference to subjective interpretations of circumstantial evidence. This was no longer just a fight for justice. It was turning into a battle between fact and fiction, a struggle between reason and emotion, between science and the law.
- [21:18]
Carola Vinuessa
The media had turned around, but there was no response from the Attorney General of New South Wales. So that was frustrating and sad in a way. Right.
- [21:29]
Rachel Sylvester
It was the Attorney General who would make the decision about what would happen.
- [21:33]
Carola Vinuessa
Next, because this is someone, at least a response is There going to be a pardon or not? So it took a year to hear from the Attorney General of New South Wales. And the decision was that instead of a pardon, he was going to hold a second inquiry into her convictions. The very different thing about the second and the first inquiry was that the legal team took the science very seriously. It was remarkable. We were told that the judge had taken a brief course in genetics, I hear several weeks course in genetics, which, you know, already indicated that he was quite serious about trying to understand the science.
- [22:15]
Rachel Sylvester
During the second inquiry, a significant amount of time was dedicated to discussing the science. The Danish team spent over six hours explaining the significance of the Calm 2 variant. They told the inquiry that in their expert opinion, it was probable that the mutation had caused a heart problem which led to the deaths of the two girls. In other words, they had likely died of natural causes.
- [22:43]
Carola Vinuessa
It was very impactful and I think the judge quite liked it because he could understand it. I think the thing that they got really right is the level of information and they went through very slowly from the very basics to the more complex science. It was really extraordinary to see that in a courtroom.
- [23:02]
Rachel Sylvester
There was another significant difference. For the first time, the all important diaries were viewed in a different light.
- [23:09]
Carola Vinuessa
I also want to mention, I mean, it wasn't just the genetics, right? In the first inquiry, most of the genetic evidence was there, but still the judge thought that the diaries carried more weight. In order to debunk that, you needed to, you know, examine the diaries. And for the first time in the legal inquiry, 10 experts, linguists, psychologists, forensic psychiatrists were given the diaries to provide reports. And it was remarkable that the 10 of them said there was nothing inculpatory in the diaries. But in the first inquiry, no one had examined the diaries, no expert, and in fact the judge had said that he didn't need anyone to interpret diaries for him, that, you know, they were written in plain English language. But of course it's very complex to analyze the diaries of a grieving mother, a mother that has lost four children, that, you know, feels inadequate, that is, you know, depressed. So that was also very important that the second inquiry brought all these additional experts to also prove that there was nothing really inculpatory in the diaries.
- [24:23]
Kathleen Folbig
Breaking news now, after more than 20 years behind bars for killing her four children, Kathleen Folbig has been granted unconditional pardon. I was literally just called upstairs and the governor pretty much said, guess what, you ought to pack up because you're going. I mean, and I thought he meant going to Another prison. Like, I didn't even, you know. And he said, no, no, no, you've been pardoned. And I said, I'm, you know, I'm pretty much sure I just stayed there and looked at him. I think I even swore. I just sort of said, you know, are you serious? New South Wales Attorney General has just.
- [24:54]
Rachel Sylvester
Announced that he received advice from the.
- [24:56]
Kathleen Folbig
Head of an inquiry examining the Folbeg case that there was reasonable doubt as to her guilt. The pardon does not overturn the convictions. It was the fastest kick someone out of prison ever. So it was 56 minutes. We timed it. I didn't get to say goodbye to anyone. There was no packing anything. That all had to be done later. I don't even think I signed anything to say I was leaving.
- [25:16]
Tracy Chapman
Her immediate future is that she will.
- [25:17]
Rachel Sylvester
Be taken to a farm in Coffs Harbour, not far.
- [25:21]
Kathleen Folbig
So it's just thrown in the van and sped off out to Tracy's and dumped at Tracy's farm.
- [25:29]
Rachel Sylvester
Kathleen's best friend, Tracy Chapman, had been campaigning for this moment for 20 years. But she only found out when a journalist called to tell her the news. Kathleen was already on the way, so she ran out to the entrance of her farm to wait for her.
- [25:46]
Howie Mandel
I just remember standing there kicking stones for a bit, and then I hear a single black cockatoo and I hear it calling. And black cockatoos are a symbol in Australia of renewal and hope and peace and all the good stuff. And I just remember I stopped what I was doing and I took a deep breath and I remember I had tears in my eyes because I thought, it's all going to be okay. It's all going to be okay.
- [26:16]
Kathleen Folbig
So it was, yeah, in borrowed clothes and not even my own clothes, you know, I said, so everything happening so fast and it was just surreal. And all of a sudden I'm at Tracey's place where, you know, both of us were just a mess. Oh, my God.
- [26:32]
Howie Mandel
And then she kind of just unceremoniously fell out the door and then straight into a hug. And I just remember she had these stinky sands shoes with her. So she had the sands shoes. And I just get the waft of the sandshoes as she gives me a big hug and. Yeah, and we just could not stop laughing and I was so excited.
- [26:59]
Rachel Sylvester
They spent time just taking in the fact that they were in the same room, able to speak with each other face to face instead of on the phone. Tracy remembers that they even physically pinched each other a couple of times. They all seemed so unreal look, it.
- [27:14]
Carola Vinuessa
Was such a sense of, you know, signs being heard, right, and the truth prevailing and the legal system, you know, doing the right thing.
- [27:27]
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- [28:13]
Career Coach
To come clean with yourself. Let's be completely honest. Are you happy with your job? Like, really happy? The unfortunate fact is that a huge number of people can't say yes to that. Far too many of us are stuck in a job we've outgrown or one we never wanted in the first place. But still we stick it out and we give reasons, like, what if the next move is even worse? I've already put years into this place. I can't afford to take a wrong step, and maybe the most common one. Isn't everyone kind of miserable at work? But there's a difference between reasons for staying and excuses for not leaving. It's time to get unstuck. It's time for Strawberry Me. They match you with a certified career coach who helps you go from where you are to where you actually want to be. Your coach helps you get clear on your goals, create a plan, build your confidence, and keeps you accountable along the way. So don't leave your career to chance. Take action and own your future. With a professional coach in your corner. Go to Strawberry Me Career to claim a special offer. That's Strawberry Me Career.
- [29:18]
Rachel Sylvester
In the days after Kathleen's release, there were lots and lots of people who she wanted to thank, and Carolla was one of them.
- [29:26]
Carola Vinuessa
I remember that first phone call and hearing Kathleen, and it was just a celebration over the phone and just a very beautiful moment. And she was happy, she was grateful, she was exultant and just very happy. Right? And I was still in a little bit of disbelief.
- [29:43]
Rachel Sylvester
Did you feel that your detective work had paid off? Or did you feel frustrated that for so many years it had been brushed aside.
- [29:51]
Carola Vinuessa
Look, I have to admit I did, because when you see something, and you see something increasingly clearly, to think there is someone, you know, languishing in prison when so many scientists have now really signed this petition, quite convinced that, you know, there is another explanation. It is. It is, yeah. It's. It's upsetting, even. It was five years when she was released, from the time that we started working on the case. Right. Nearly five years.
- [30:22]
Rachel Sylvester
A few months later, Kathleen was exonerated. It was the last step in the process. Her convictions were quashed and she was finally, in the eyes of the law, an innocent woman.
- [30:35]
Kathleen Folbig
Today is a victory for science and.
- [30:37]
Rachel Sylvester
Especially 22 years after she was first arrested for crimes she never committed. What's extraordinary is you'd been through this unbearable tragedy and then you also had to suffer this extraordinary miscarriage of justice.
- [30:54]
Carola Vinuessa
What do you think?
- [30:55]
Rachel Sylvester
You know, what impact has that had on you?
- [30:58]
Kathleen Folbig
Well, I'll put it this way. I'm on psychological care and therapy for the rest of my life. You wouldn't be able to do it any other way, I think, because I'm a fairly pragmatic, sensible person and I try really hard not to let the emotional sides of things get too out of control or let it take me down too far. It made it a bit easier, you know, I said, so, you know, I'm out now, and it's almost like it's. I've only been. Even technically, I've only really been out 20, 23 to two years. But in that two years, it almost feels like I've never actually left society. Like it's a weird sort of situation. I joke with a girl saying, I was 35 when I went in, so my brain sort of stalled at 35.
- [31:42]
Rachel Sylvester
So did you feel vindicated or did you feel angry at the waste of all those years?
- [31:46]
Kathleen Folbig
No, I felt vindicated. Yeah. I didn't really suffer. Too much anger inside. Yes, probably the first 10 years. Yeah. You wouldn't have looked at me sideways because I would have snapped your head off because. Yeah, I was angry about the whole thing, but I soon sort of figured that, you know, I don't really have time for it, you know, so things people say now, why are you angry and bitter? I said, because I'm 58 this year. You know, realistically, 30, 40, if I'm stretching it, years left of my life, I just don't have time to be angry about it now. I've got too much living to do and catching up to do and you know, experiences to have and things that I've missed out on that I'm slowly sort of, you know, getting to do again. So I think if you're going to walk around just being negative and, you know, bitter with people and that's a miserable way to live, I said I already had that, so I wasn't really interested in to continue doing it.
- [32:39]
Rachel Sylvester
As I record this, Kathleen has still not received compensation for the miscarriage of justice she suffered. But she's focusing on the future, taking joy in the simple, everyday pleasures that most of us take for granted.
- [32:53]
Kathleen Folbig
Everyone says, what's your most favourite thing to do? And it's simply to be able to walk out the door and go for a walk. And people don't understand that. The lesson should be to not ignore science. The lesson, I think, should be that the legal system, if you've got scientists who are suddenly coming on board saying something's wrong, then those scientists need to be listened to. Don't ignore the scientists.
- [33:20]
Carola Vinuessa
It's incomprehensible what she must have gone through. Right. I myself can't even begin to think what it must be to lose a child. I've got two daughters myself, let alone, you know, be vilified and be sent to prison and be in isolation. She was in complete isolation for 14 years. Right. I mean, it's unthinkable. And I suppose it speaks to Kathleen's resilience and strength. Not everybody would come out of that ordeal with a sense of humor like she has or with the strength that she has.
- [34:00]
Rachel Sylvester
It is incomprehensible. But what's even more incredible, considering all that we now know, is that Kathleen's case might not be the last. If you're unfortunate enough to carry a genetic mutation, multiple deaths in a family become more likely, whether or not, you know, you've got it. These conditions and mutations don't discriminate. They could happen to anyone. And if you're in the wrong place, it might still end with the criminal justice system.
- [34:31]
Carola Vinuessa
I do know that there are mothers that live in fear and have had to leave their country because they lost a second or third child. And even though we think that Meadow's Law has been debunked and, you know, nobody should interpret three deaths as recurrent homicide, we still know that in most countries, anything that looks unusual still could lead to an accusation of murder.
- [35:02]
Rachel Sylvester
When Carola and I sat down for this interview, I was still learning about Kathleen's case. I assumed this was a story rooted in the past and that this might be the end of the podcast on a neat note about the justice system finally catching up with science. But suddenly, when I asked Carolla about the progress of genetics in courtrooms around the world, it all felt much more urgent. Are there any cases you're working on yourself?
- [35:33]
Carola Vinuessa
I have contributed to a few cases and recently to a case in Greece, for example, where we were not able to persuade the court that a broader and more in depth genetic investigation was required.
- [35:49]
Rachel Sylvester
And what was the upshot of that?
- [35:53]
Carola Vinuessa
Well, that mother was sadly condemned to life in prison.
- [36:01]
Rachel Sylvester
So we decided to go to Athens and find out why. Coming up on episode four of the Lab Detective.
- [36:10]
Carola Vinuessa
So I got a tip from one of my sources. They asked me to go out for coffee and discuss the case.
- [36:20]
Kathleen Folbig
There are all sorts of things that.
- [36:21]
Rachel Sylvester
Can be found if you look carefully. Do you worry that there's been another miscarriage of justice?
- [36:27]
Carola Vinuessa
Look, personally, I do worry for her. She wants to know.
- [36:34]
Rachel Sylvester
She wants to know what happened. The Lab Detective is reported by me, Rachel Sylvester. It's written by me and the producer, Gary Marshall. Additional production and factor checking by Madeleine Parr. The music supervisor is Carla Patella. Sound design is by Rowan Bishop. Podcast artwork is by Lola Williams. The executive producer is Basha Cummings.
- [37:17]
Carola Vinuessa
The Observer.
- [37:25]
Frances from Fixable
Hi, this is Frances from Fixable, a podcast from ted. These days, every finance leader is under pressure to save money. But you can't beat the competition just by cutting costs. To win, you need to spend smarter and move faster. You need Brex. Brex is the modern finance platform that breaks the trade off between control and speed with intelligent corporate cards, high Yield Banking, and AI powered Expense Management. Join the 30,000 companies that spend smarter and move faster with Brex. Learn more@brex.com grow there's the part of.
- [38:03]
Tracy Chapman
Me that everyone sees. I'm Howie Mandel, the comedian. Apparently I know what funny is. Funny bought me a house. But I also know what isn't funny. Ocd. I've lived with OCD my entire life, and people throw the term around like it's no big deal. But OCD is severe, often debilitating. It's a mental health condition that involves unrelented unwanted thoughts that can make you question your character, your beliefs, even your safety. General therapy can help with some things, but for ocd, it can actually make things worse. That's why I want to tell you about no cd. NO CD is the world's largest treatment provider for OCD and is covered by Insurance for over 155 million Americans. Their licensed therapists specialize in ERP, the most effective treatment for OCD. If you think you might be struggling with OCD, go to nocd.com to book a free 15 minute call. They are here to help.
- [39:00]
Career Coach
USAA knows Dynamic Duos can save the day like superheroes and sidekicks or auto and home insurance. With usaa, you can bundle your auto and home and save up to 10%. Tap the banner to learn more and get a'@usaa.com bundle restrictions apply. Beth, you're in charge of ordering the.
- [39:17]
Kathleen Folbig
Tacos for the meeting today.
- [39:18]
PayPal Advertiser
Yeah, I'm not going to order the tacos.
- [39:20]
Kathleen Folbig
Uh, what?
- [39:21]
PayPal Advertiser
I'm going to EasyCater.
- [39:22]
Carola Vinuessa
The tacos.
- [39:23]
PayPal Advertiser
With Easycater you can order from a huge variety of restaurants, track expenses and save time.
- [39:29]
Kathleen Folbig
Nice.
- [39:30]
PayPal Advertiser
Oh, by the way, you're emailing the meeting notes, right?
- [39:33]
Career Coach
No, I'm going to easy mail them. Where's my music?
- [39:38]
PayPal Advertiser
Sorry, Ben, there's no Easy cater for that.
- [39:40]
Career Coach
Easycater. The easy way to order food for work. Order now@easycator.com.