The Defendant: 4

Summary

Summary of "The Defendant: 4" Episode from LUIGI Podcast by Law&Crime | Wondery

Release Date: June 23, 2025

---

1. Introduction

In the fourth episode of the LUIGI series, host Jesse Weber delves deeper into the enigmatic figure of Luigi Mangione, who stands accused of assassinating Brian Thompson, the CEO of UnitedHealthcare. This episode explores Luigi's intricate background, personal struggles, and the societal reactions that have shaped the ongoing national debate surrounding his alleged actions.

2. Luigi Mangione's Background

Luigi Mangione was born into a prestigious family in Towson, Maryland, with significant ties to Baltimore's business and real estate sectors. Despite the affluent background, his family was known for their humility and strong community bonds. Giovanna Blatterman, a close acquaintance, describes the Mangione family as:

"We're very close, all of us, and we help each other when there's need to do so, and we play together, we worship together, we work together. That's how I would explain the family."
(00:30)

Friends emphasize that despite their wealth, the Mangiones remained down-to-earth:

"Sometimes people, they have money, they wear it. This family does not. They're very down to earth and they make people feel comfortable around them."
(01:33)

3. The Turning Point: Health Struggles

From a young age, Luigi exhibited exceptional intelligence and academic prowess. He attended the Gilman School, an elite all-boys preparatory academy, where he was named valedictorian in 2016. He continued his education at the University of Pennsylvania, earning both bachelor's and master's degrees in computer and information science by 2020. His promising career in tech included roles at Truecar and contributions to the development of Civilization VI during an internship at Firaxis Games.

However, beneath his professional achievements, Luigi battled chronic pain from spondylolisthesis, a debilitating spinal condition:

"It's not like he didn't call his one friend or his two friends. Luigi had dozens of friends in Hawaii, dozens of people that care about him and that he spent time with."
(03:54)

4. Life in Hawaii: Community and Connections

In 2022, seeking relief and a healthier lifestyle, Luigi relocated to Honolulu, Hawaii. There, he joined Surf Break, a co-living community founded by RJ Martin. Luigi quickly became an integral part of this community, organizing book clubs, dinners, and various events. RJ Martin highlights Luigi's positive influence:

"He was just always thinking about others and conscious of that and giving back to his friends."
(07:03)

5. Decline and Isolation

In mid-2023, an incident while surfing exacerbated Luigi's back condition, leading him to undergo spinal fusion surgery. Post-surgery, Luigi's mental state deteriorated. He became increasingly isolated, cutting off communication with friends and family. By summer 2024, he had vanished from his social circles, raising significant concern among those who knew him.

RJ Martin recounts the shocking moment he learned of Luigi's arrest:

"I thought this was some sort of joke. So while I'm on the phone with them, I swipe left into my news feed, and I see pictures of my friend being arrested. And I just fell to the ground, like, in a seated position, tears in my eyes."
(13:37)

6. The Crime: Assassination of Brian Thompson

Luigi Mangione was arrested for the alleged assassination of Brian Thompson, UnitedHealthcare’s CEO. The crime was executed in broad daylight in one of the most surveilled cities globally, using a homemade firearm. The audacity and apparent premeditation of the act sent shockwaves across the nation.

7. Friends and Family React

Those who knew Luigi struggled to reconcile the charismatic, kind-hearted individual with the accused murderer:

"I was in complete and utter shock. And even to this day, to this moment, it doesn't make sense, and it doesn't gel with the person that I was really close with..."
(14:03)

Giovanna Blatterman expressed skepticism about Luigi's state of mind at the time of the crime:

"I still don't believe that he was of good thinking at the moment."
(04:22)

8. Expert Analysis: Understanding Luigi's Mindset

FBI criminal profiler Candice DeLonge and psychologist Dr. John Paul Garrison provide insights into Luigi's potential motivations and psychological state.

Candice DeLonge notes classic signs of a disturbed individual:

"He kind of dropped out and pulled away from family and friends, withdrawing from their support system, disappearing into their own head..."
(15:13)

She suggests Luigi's actions may have been premeditated, reflecting traits of narcissism and possibly aligning with extremist behavior:

"The vast majority, in my opinion, of people that commit premeditated murder at least have narcissistic traits."
(16:06)

Dr. John Paul Garrison compares Luigi's potential motives to terrorism, emphasizing a desire for social change and the manipulation of public sentiment:

"This is where it starts to look a little bit like terrorism. In essence, terrorism is doing acts like this with the idea of some sort of social change."
(22:20)

He also warns of the dangerous repercussions of public sympathy, including the risk of copycat offenses.

9. Public Reaction and Cultural Implications

The case has sparked a polarized public response. While mainstream media condemns the act as a heinous murder, online narratives have painted Luigi as a symbol of resistance against corporate power. Experts argue that this dichotomy stems from the public's own frustrations with systemic issues:

"When people look at Mangione, they aren't just seeing a criminal defendant. They're seeing their own disillusionment."
(19:07)

This societal divide highlights a deeper cultural reckoning, where Luigi's actions are interpreted through the lens of personal grievances against larger institutions.

10. Legal Perspectives: The Trial Ahead

Legal expert Jules Epstein outlines the straightforward nature of the case, focusing on clear evidence linking Luigi to the crime with intent and causation. However, he acknowledges potential complexities:

"In a murder case, it's who did it, did their action cause death and what was their mental state? ... It’s an intentional murder."
(24:53)

Epstein discusses possible defense strategies Luigi's legal team might employ, including:

• Insanity Defense: Likely ineffective due to the premeditated nature of the crime.
• Necessity Defense: Unlikely to succeed as the act lacks immediate necessity.
• Manslaughter: A lower charge, but proving extreme emotional disturbance would be challenging.
• Jury Nullification: Public sympathy might influence the jury, though it's not a formal defense strategy.

DeLonge and Dr. Garrison express skepticism about the success of an insanity plea given Luigi's calculated actions and the manifesto he allegedly authored.

11. Conclusion

Luigi Mangione's case is emblematic of a turbulent American moment, reflecting the tensions between individual suffering and societal constraints. As the legal battle unfolds, LUIGI continues to provide comprehensive coverage, challenging listeners to ponder whether the status quo is sufficient or if a broader cultural shift is necessary.

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Notable Quotes:

• "A very friendly, lovely young man. Beautiful smile."
  — Giovanna Blatterman (02:02)

• "I was in complete and utter shock. And even to this day, to this moment, it doesn't make sense..."
  — RJ Martin (14:03)

• "He kind of dropped out and pulled away from family and friends..."
  — Candice DeLonge (15:13)

• "This is where it starts to look a little bit like terrorism..."
  — Dr. John Paul Garrison (22:20)

• "In a murder case, it's who did it, did their action cause death and what was their mental state?"
  — Jules Epstein (24:53)

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For more insights and updates on Luigi Mangione's case, subscribe to Law&Crime's LUIGI on Wondery+ via the Wondery App, Spotify, or Apple Podcasts.

Transcript

[Jesse Weber]

Wonder plus subscribers can binge all episodes of Law and Crimes Luigi early and ad free right now. Join Wonder plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify and get ad free access to more thrilling long crime series, including daily episodes of Sidebar with Jesse Weber.

[Candice DeLonge]

The following podcast explores an active investigation unfolding in real time. Luigi Mangione is considered innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

[Jesse Weber]

His name has been at the center of a national debate, idolized by some, vilified by others, a symbol of defiance, a man accused of an unthinkable act. But strip away the headlines, the fundraisers and the courtroom theatrics. Who is Luigi really? Let's go back to the beginning. Luigi Mangione's story began in Towson, Maryland, where he was born into a well established family with deep ties to Baltimore's business and real estate scene. Their roots ran deep in their ethnic.

[Giovanna Blatterman]

Community too, in the Italian community. We're very close, all of us, and we help each other when there's need to do so, and we play together, we worship together, we work together. That's how I would explain the family.

[Jesse Weber]

The Mangione name carried weight associated with wealth, influence and success. But friends say they didn't wear it on their sleeves.

[Giovanna Blatterman]

Sometimes people, they have money, they wear it. This family does not. They're very down to earth and they make people feel comfortable around them.

[Jesse Weber]

Luigi Mangione grew up with a strong foundation of community. He was the kind of person who made others feel seen and valued. Those who knew him, like Giovanna Blatterman, don't recall someone with radical views, but a warm, humble young man whose kindness left a lasting impression.

[Giovanna Blatterman]

A very friendly, lovely young man. Beautiful smile.

[Jesse Weber]

From an early age, Luigi was exceptional. He attended the prestigious Gilman School, an elite, all boys preparatory academy, where he quickly distinguished himself as one of its brightest students. By the time he graduated in 2016, he had earned the title of valedictorian.

[Giovanna Blatterman]

That's a big honor and that's something he had to achieve because if you go to a high end school, then you must be pretty high end emotionally and intellectually to rise to the top.

[Jesse Weber]

Academically, his trajectory was meteoric. He was accepted into the University of Pennsylvania, where he pursued both a bachelor's and master's degree in computer and information science, completing them by 2020. His intelligence and ambition led him to a promising career in tech, working as a data engineer for Truecar and even contributing to the development of Civilization VI during an internship at Firaxis Games. But beneath the surface cracks were forming.

[RJ Martin]

I was aware that his back was impacting his life.

[Jesse Weber]

For Luigi Mangione, pain was a constant companion. Long before his name became synonymous with controversy, he was fighting a battle that few could see. A relentless grinding struggle against his own body.

[RJ Martin]

I was completely unaware of the behind the scenes struggles. He's one of those people that if he was in pain and suffering, he just closed his door. He didn't tell anyone.

[Jesse Weber]

It started with spondylolisthesis, a condition where a vertebra shifts out of place, pressing on nerves and causing intense discomfort. For years, the pain dictated his life, growing worse with time.

[Giovanna Blatterman]

So perhaps that played a big part in his thinking.

[Jesse Weber]

Pain had shaped him. It had stolen parts of his life, limited his choices and in ways no one could have predicted, may have sent him down a path that would change everything.

[Giovanna Blatterman]

That was not a road that needed to be taken. But only God knows what was in his mind. I still don't believe that he was of good thinking at the moment.

[Jesse Weber]

As the legal proceedings unfold, the world is left to piece together how a brilliant, well connected young man became an accused assassin. Was it his own personal struggles? A deep seated resentment towards corporate power? Or something else altogether? His story is one of contradictions. Privilege and hardship, brilliance and chaos. And as his trial looms, the public remains divided. Was Luigi Mangione a man pushed to his breaking point? Or was he always destined to make the world remember his name from law and crime and twist? I'm Jesse Weber and this is Luigi. In 2022, Mangione left his hometown of Towson, Maryland and moved to Honolulu, Hawaii in search of a healthier, more fulfilling life. That's where he met RJ Martin, the founder of Surf Break, a co living space near Honolulu's Ala Moana Beach Park.

[RJ Martin]

I actually conducted the interview with him and immediately knew he was an ideal member. He worked in tech, he had a remote job. He was looking to come to Hawaii to improve his health, meet new people and friends.

[Jesse Weber]

He'd come to the right place.

[RJ Martin]

We have a mission statement. It's that we're a community of givers and that we leave things better than we found them. So we really look for and encourage community service, but also taking care of those around you. You know, I feel like your ohana, your family, those nearest to you are the first line after you take care of yourself. And I was really grateful that Luigi wanted to spend his free time and organize and coordinate amongst the surf break members.

[Jesse Weber]

Mangione quickly became an integral part of the surf break community. It looked like the joy he found in connection provided him with what he came to Hawaii in search of a salve for his chronic pain.

[RJ Martin]

I got to watch him develop a friend circle and a friend group there.

[Jesse Weber]

He ultimately did not stay at surf break long term, but he maintained a.

[RJ Martin]

Lot of the relationships and friendships he.

[Jesse Weber]

Built there so they could all stay connected. Mangione started a book club and organized dinners and events.

[RJ Martin]

He was a great friend. He was great to have in your life. He was one of those circle of people that you are grateful that are there to support you, that improve the quality of your life. And that's the Luigi that I knew.

[Jesse Weber]

RJ recounted that Mangione had a way of making people feel cared for. He was always thinking of others.

[RJ Martin]

If you know you were making some food or cooking dinner, he'd be like, hey, I'm on my way. What can I pick up? He was just always thinking about others and conscious of that and giving back to his friends.

[Jesse Weber]

Mangione was reliable, humble and generous, never someone to dwell on what wasn't going right for him.

[RJ Martin]

One of the reasons why I really respected Luigi and became close friends with him was because he was one of those people that didn't make his problems other people's problems, and he did not complain.

[Jesse Weber]

Then came the accident while in Hawaii. A surfing mishap worsened his back condition. By mid-2023, Mangione decided he'd had enough. He underwent spinal fusion surgery, something RJ remembers had been on his mind since before the accident.

[RJ Martin]

He made it clear on that very first call interview that he was dealing with a pretty severe back condition and that one of his major motivations for coming to Hawaii was was to get stronger and healthier because he knew that there was a need for a surgery kind of looming over, weighing on him.

[Jesse Weber]

Ironically, it was in the place he'd come to heal that a once manageable pain became an inescapable torment. In the weeks that followed, he reportedly turned to the Internet, sharing his journey on Reddit, offering advice and encouragement to others facing similar struggles. He allegedly wrote about his recovery with optimism. How he was off pain medication within a week, how he finally felt relief, saying, in my case, it's due to my piriformis, hip muscles tightening to compensate for my injury. The tightness squeezes my nerves. It doesn't show up on MRI and no doc has really confirmed it. It can be easy to get caught up in the plethora of horror stories on the Internet. When my spondy went bad on me last year, it was completely devastating. As a young athletic person, seemingly all I could read on the Internet was that I was destined to chronic pain and a desk job for the rest of my life. That representation was terrifying and inaccurate and completely destroyed me until I realized the silent majority of Fusions are highly successful. Hoping this can help others who find themselves in the same place. This is not to encourage surgery per se, but but just to provide reassurance that athletic life is totally normal after Fusion if when the surgery is necessary but pain leaves scars even after it fades. His back might have been healing, but the toll it had taken on his mind was undeniable. Friends like RJ noticed a shift.

[RJ Martin]

I knew that Luigi had this impending back surgery. You know, we would text every now and then. I Remember in late 2023, I just checked in with them and I'm like, hey, dude, have you had surgery yet? What's going on? And he responded by sending me two screenshots of X rays that were obviously post op X rays because they had, from two different angles, these giant, I don't know, three, four inch screws going into his spine.

[Jesse Weber]

RJ continued to reach out and check.

[RJ Martin]

In and he never responded.

[Jesse Weber]

This wasn't the Luigi RJ had come to know so well. Had the years of physical suffering led to signs of depression and isolation? Had the world, which had once felt so full of possibility, shrunk down to a monotonous cycle of discomfort and fleeting moments of relief?

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[Jesse Weber]

In 2024, Mangione's presence in his social circles began to fade completely.

[RJ Martin]

From talking to our friend group, it's our understanding that by summer of 2024, he'd cut communications off with everyone, which you have to understand is so out of character for somebody who has a robust friend circle. For somebody that I care about enough that I go out of my way, you know, several months in a row just to, hey, hey, how you doing, man? Where in the world are you really extremely out of character. It's not like he didn't call his one friend or his two friends. Luigi had dozens of friends in Hawaii, dozens of people that care about him and that he spent time with.

[Jesse Weber]

He became more distant, his communication sparse, and not just with his friends.

[RJ Martin]

He didn't talk to any of his family members. His parents had even filed him the same police report because they were worried about him, because they hadn't heard from him.

[Jesse Weber]

Luigi Mangione's friends and family reportedly finally learned of his whereabouts when the rest of us did.

[RJ Martin]

I was aware that there had been an assassination. I saw the video clip, but zero thoughts or processing that that had anything to do with anyone I've ever met or interacted with. It was the exact opposite. It wasn't really even a blip on my radar at the time.

[Jesse Weber]

When RJ first heard his friend's name mentioned in connection to the crime, he was in complete disbelief.

[RJ Martin]

I opened my phone, and I'm trying to figure out what's going on. And as I'm basically opening my phone, a call comes through that I answer, and it's a reporter from a publication in New York. And they just started asking me questions, and I was just super confused and asked them, what are you talking about? And they said Luigi's name and that he had been arrested.

[Jesse Weber]

At that moment, RJ Realized the weight of what was happening.

[RJ Martin]

I thought this was some sort of joke. So while I'm on the phone with them, I swipe left into my news feed, and I see pictures of my friend being arrested. And I just fell to the ground, like, in a seated position, tears in my eyes.

[Jesse Weber]

Even now, RJ Struggles with reconciling the friend he once knew with the accusations laid against him.

[RJ Martin]

I was in complete and utter shock. And even to this day, to this moment, it doesn't make sense, and it doesn't gel with the person that I was really close with, that I cooked meals with, that we went to countless meetings at book club that we worked out together. It is completely just incompatible with my close friend and the times we enjoyed together. And also just how I watched him treat other people. He was constantly just thoughtful and kind and would go out of his way to be there for others.

[Jesse Weber]

Friends like RJ still hold on to the memories of the Luigi they knew. A man who was always kind, always thinking of others, always giving back.

[RJ Martin]

I never felt once that anything was being hidden or there was some sort of ulterior motive. He was just so genuinely kind and humble all the time that, you know, I still kind of in my heart, that's the friend that I have.

[Jesse Weber]

Those closest to Mangione are still searching for explanations. But for FBI criminal profiler Candice DeLonge, the writing was on the wall.

[Candice DeLonge]

There's some things in Luigi's life that are kind of classic, and that was telltale signs that something was going on with him. And that was two to three months before the event. He kind of dropped out and pulled away from family and friends, withdrawing from.

[Jesse Weber]

Their support system, disappearing into their own head and distancing themselves from relationships that might keep them anchored to reality. This is a pattern experts in forensic psychology see over and over again. Then suddenly he became the most talked.

[Candice DeLonge]

About person in America, if not the world.

[Jesse Weber]

In his time off the radar, is it possible he was planning the attack on Brian Thompson? DeLong thinks so.

[Candice DeLonge]

He didn't just wake up a few days before that and decide to do it.

[Jesse Weber]

The crime didn't just appear calculated, it was brazen. Federal and state law enforcement and prosecutors claim that he walked up to Brian Thompson in broad daylight in one of the most surveilled cities in the world and shot him point blank with a homemade firearm. It was almost as if he believed he couldn't be caught. And that, as DeLonge points out, is where the psychology of a certain personality disorder plays a role.

[Candice DeLonge]

There's something that frequently gets in the way of getting away with murder, and it's this narcissism. The vast majority, in my opinion, of people that commit premeditated murder at least have narcissistic traits. Why do I say that? I think you've got to be pretty narcissistic to think you can get away with murder, but to think you can get away with murder that you committed in broad daylight, video cameras all over the place, and then you can go to a McDonald's five days later when you're the most hunted person in the United States. You can just walk into a McDonald's and have breakfast and no one's Going to notice.

[Jesse Weber]

That's exactly what Mangione did. The problem was, for him, someone did notice. It was Mangione's interactions with police that DeLonge said really solidified her opinion.

[Candice DeLonge]

The cop that was questioning him, the two cops, but one was leading, you know, the questions, said that when he asked Mangione, have you recently been to New York City? Mangione started shaking, meaning trembling, meaning now he was frightened. That tells me he really thought he was going to get away with this.

[Jesse Weber]

And psychologist Dr. John Paul Garrison had similar thoughts after reading the manifesto.

[Dr. John Paul Garrison]

He feels morally justified in what he did. He seems to truly believe that what he did was okay. And he also seems to think that he is a very intelligent guy. So it does show this certain level of grandiosity and also that it would be okay for him to do this.

[Jesse Weber]

For people like DeLonge and Dr. Garrison, the most disturbing aspect of this case isn't just the alleged crime itself, but how the public responded.

[Candice DeLonge]

Every narcissist needs one thing, a mirror. And for this guy, his mirror is the public that thinks he did a good thing, the right thing.

[Jesse Weber]

Why? What is it about this case that makes people more sympathetic to the suspect than the victim? We asked Dr. Garrison that exact question. His belief is that Mangione's purported actions have given rise to a newfound sense of validation for the frustrations felt by many across the nation.

[Dr. John Paul Garrison]

He absolutely hit a nerve that we can all identify with to some capacity in the sense that none of us have ever had 100% great experiences when it comes to insurance companies. Whether it's that it's not paying what we expect or that it costs, there's just so many reasons that people have grievances with this. So for him, it was one of those situations where what he acted on allowed people to feel their frustrations. In some people, they were able to legitimize what he did.

[Jesse Weber]

When people look at Mangione, they aren't just seeing a criminal defendant. They're seeing their own disillusionment. They're seeing the system they believe has wronged them. And in that rationalization, Brian Thompson is no longer seen as a person. He's seen as a personification of an unfavorable entity. No matter what side of the aisle.

[Dr. John Paul Garrison]

You'Re on, when someone like Luigi Mangione acts out against even though it was a person, but people are identifying this person as an insurance company, essentially immediately, people are dehumanizing the victim because they're associating him with. He is insurance. He is the face of the companies who've wronged me, basically. So that's. I think a big part of what's happening is that people are not looking at him as a victim. They're looking at him as the insurance industry rather than. This is somebody with a family who worked for an insurance company, ran one, but he isn't an insurance company. And there seems to be a disconnect with people's minds. There's.

[Jesse Weber]

Dr. Garrison takes it a step further.

[Dr. John Paul Garrison]

If this was about something else, like if he had stalked somebody that was not related to the insurance industry, or if this was an ex girlfriend or something, and this had played out the same way, he might have the same justifications. Talk about all the reasons why he was right to do this, and we would all be repulsed and go, oh, God, this guy needs to be put away forever. But because it taps into something that people can relate to to some degree, it completely changes the psychology of how people look at the situation. But instead, people are hailing him as the hero. And it's very confusing.

[Jesse Weber]

But there's another thing working for Mangione's perception that doesn't require a decoder ring.

[Dr. John Paul Garrison]

The fact that he is a good looking white guy definitely plays in his favor.

[Jesse Weber]

Society has its biases, and for better or worse, they shape the way people are seen. And here's the danger. When people justify violence fueled by attraction or projections of their own experience, it can have consequences beyond what they intend.

[Dr. John Paul Garrison]

There are vulnerable people that I'm very concerned could be influenced like this, because when people are desperate, when they're vulnerable, they sometimes do some very tragic things. I am very concerned that there will be copycats because I think that, frankly, as a society, we're not doing a great job of dissuading people right now.

[Jesse Weber]

The ripple effect is hard to predict, but the potential for imitation is certainly there, especially when the motives behind them are so strategically aimed at disruption. So if he was the perpetrator, was Luigi Mangione just a lone madman or was he something far more dangerous? Dr. Garrison shares his insight as to what Mangione's state of mind could have been if he indeed did what he's alleged to have done.

[Dr. John Paul Garrison]

This is where it starts to look a little bit like terrorism. In essence, terrorism is doing acts like this with the idea of some sort of social change. Right. And so in essence, that may be his mindset, which was, if I do this, it'll send a chilling effect throughout the industry or throughout powerful people.

[Jesse Weber]

By framing his alleged actions as a catalyst for Change. A dangerous mindset is tapped into one that seeks to provoke fear and rally others under the banner of rebellion, no matter the cost. One of the biggest questions going into Mangione's trial is whether his defense team will argue that he was legally insane at the time of the crime. Dr. Garast says that argument is unlikely to hold up.

[Dr. John Paul Garrison]

I would think that proving this case, particularly for something like insanity, where you'd have to suggest he doesn't know the difference between right and wrong, is going to be almost impossible given the statements he's made or given the manifesto, given some of these other aspects of it. So the idea that he's under emotional distress, I don't think that that is going to be a very effective defense in the long run. I don't personally see him succeeding with that. And I also don't see him succeeding saying that it's due to reasons of insanity. If that's an available defense in his state.

[Jesse Weber]

The bar for an insanity defense is extremely high.

[Dr. John Paul Garrison]

You truly have to be able to show that somebody doesn't know the difference between right and wrong. And those cases are pretty rare. I mean, those folks are insane to a degree that they are almost non functional.

[Jesse Weber]

Mangione's alleged meticulous planning contradicts that argument.

[Dr. John Paul Garrison]

They could not do the things he did, and that's going to be the problem.

[Jesse Weber]

And then there's the question of whether Mangione himself would even accept an insanity plan.

[Candice DeLonge]

Defense attorneys are going to do anything they can to keep their client alive. That is their job. But they also cannot plead a count their client not guilty by reason of insanity without the client's permission. So it'll be interesting to see. It's hard for me to imagine that Luigi Mangione is going to go, hey, you know what? Yeah, I was out of my mind. That's how I want the world to remember me, that I was an out of my mind, nutcase individual. And that's why I did what I did. I can't see him doing that. I really cannot.

[Jesse Weber]

Legal experts say this case could go one of two ways, either as a straightforward conviction or a more complicated legal battle. For insights, we turn to legal expert Jules Epstein, professor of law and director of advocacy programs at Temple University.

[Jules Epstein]

One way to look at this case is to say it's simple and indeed cut and dried. Why? In a murder case, it's who did it, did their action cause death and what was their mental state? And for the most serious degree of murder, it's intentional. When you acted, were you intending that the person die, not just that they be hurt. The pointing the gun at the head and deliberately targeting them while masked makes pretty clear two things. Causation and intent. It's not as if someone shot them in the thigh, but terribly or tragically, they bled out. This is an intentional murder. As to who did, seems cut and dried again. Why, if the news accounts are correct, between or among DNA evidence, fingerprint evidence, the gun, and whatever testing will be done on that gun, the manifesto, the videos, the possession of the fake ID that's linked to the fake ID that was used in New York. So that's why, in one sense, this is a cut and dried murder case.

[Jesse Weber]

But while the prosecution appears to have a strong case, Epstein points out that there are legal complexities that could come into play.

[Jules Epstein]

There may be four. And so I'm not suggesting that any of them is or is not valid. But if I were his lawyer, these are the issues I'd be thinking about. Number one, is there a possible insanity defense? Two, there's something called a necessity defense. If I was being chased by wolves and they were about to attack me and my child and I broke into your house to get away, we'd say there was a necessity to break into your house to save my and my child's life. The difficulty, if not impossibility, of a necessity defense is that your action has to be pretty much the only way to fix the problem. And I'm not sure a judge would allow the case to be presented because a judge would have to say, even if this harm you're worried about is really extreme, extreme, your conduct was not that kind of immediate response. And there are available alternatives. In other words, short of breaking the law, you can go to court or you can go to Congress or you can do things like that. Option three, New York has a lower charge in the homicide spectrum called manslaughter. You're still guilty of a crime, but it carries a lower punishment. And New York has what's called an affirmative defense. It means the defendant has to prove this, that they acted under the influence of an extreme emotional disturbance.

[Jesse Weber]

But to prove emotional disturbance, Epstein says there are three steps to get there.

[Jules Epstein]

Part one is the individual must have an extreme emotional disturbance. And I'm reading the quote here from the jury instructions. So extreme as to result in and become manifest as a profound loss of self control. You think like almost a rage killing after seeing a loved one assaulted. Okay, that might be reasonable. And result in a profound loss of self control given the step by step methodical nature of this crime. I don't know if a jury would buy that there was a profound loss of self control. Even if they did, the jury would have to say, is that extreme emotional distress reasonable based on the life experiences or beliefs that this defendant had? Finally, even if a jury said, you know, I get it, it's reasonable for a person who got denied or had problems getting insurance and their medical insurance wouldn't cover things and they were in tremendous pain, okay, then they'd have to show that on the day of the killing, they were still under the influence of that extreme emotional disturbance.

[Jesse Weber]

Then the fourth option, it's not exactly a defense per se.

[Jules Epstein]

It's called jury nullification.

[Jesse Weber]

When people sympathize with the defendant's cause, they may be reluctant to send them to prison even if they technically committed a crime. This is what's known as jury nullification. And it can be a real concern in politically charged cases like this one. Could Mangione's attorneys subtly appeal to this sentiment? They don't have to argue that he was justified. They just have to plant the idea that a guilty verdict would be unjust in the eyes of the public. And if Mangione's support in the courtroom see him as a fallen idealist rather than a cold blooded killer, that could be enough to tip the scales. Public sentiment shouldn't dictate verdicts. But in a world where social media can turn alleged killers into martyrs, can the justice system remain immune to the court of public opinion? Luigi Mangione's case continues to play out in real time while no trial dates have been set. As of this recording, Law and Crime remains committed. To bringing you all the important updates along the way. Stay subscribed to this feed to be the first to know when we drop new episodes. This has been a Law and Crime and Twists production. I'm your host Jesse Weber for Law and Crime. Our executive producer is Jessica Lowther. Our writer and senior producer is Cooper Maul. Our editor is Anna McClain. Our bookers are Diane Kay and Alyssa Fisher. Legal review by Elizabeth Vouli and Stephanie Beach. Key art designed by Sean Panzera for Twist Media. Our executive producers are Jane Latman and Haruka Wakimoto. Follow long crimes Luigi on the Wondery app you can binge the entire series early and ad free right now on Wondery. Join Wondery in the Wondery app, Spotify or Apple podcasts and get ad free access to even more thrilling law and crime series, including daily episodes of Sidebar with Jesse Weber. Start your free trial today.