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- [00:01]
Jesse Weber
Wonder plus subscribers can binge all episodes of Law and Crimes Luigi early and ad free right now. Join Wonder plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify and get ad free access to more thrilling long crime series, including daily episodes of Sidebar with Jesse Weber.
- [00:18]
Sam Beard
The following podcast explores an active investigation unfolding in real time. Luigi Mangione is considered Innocent until Proven Guilty in a Court of law Foreign.
- [00:32]
Jesse Weber
Days Before Luigi Mangione was arrested and named a SUSPECT in the Dec. 4 killing of UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson, Dec. 4 had become a symbol of solidarity and resistance online.
- [00:46]
Jamie Peck
This rather unprecedented manhunt was still ongoing and we preemptively made a fundraiser in case anybody ended up getting caught and alleged to be connected with the incident.
- [00:57]
Jesse Weber
Within hours, a defense fund for the shooter emerged, not from an established legal organization or a deep pocketed benefactor, but from a grassroots coalition.
- [01:07]
Sam Beard
The December 4th legal committee is made up of about 15 volunteers scattered across the country.
- [01:14]
Jesse Weber
The December 4th legal committee was born out of urgency, with one common goal to ensure that whoever was accused of the crime saw a fair trial and has the financial resources to mount a robust legal defense.
- [01:29]
Sam Beard
The fund was started before any suspect had been named in this shooting for a few different reasons. We believe everyone has the right to a fair trial. I mean, they do. But we know that access to a fair trial is somewhat tiered based on how many resources you have access to. And we know in the case of something like this, where someone has taken action that threatens the state, threatens the powers that be, threatens the insurance company is the state was going to throw virtually unlimited resources at this. So we wanted to make sure that whoever was eventually charged with this crime had access to just as many resources. And a second mission that became apparent very quickly looking at all of the messages that people were leaving on the fundraiser with their donations was to lift up the voices of everybody who felt moved, represented, even defended by these actions.
- [02:25]
Jesse Weber
As details of the case unfolded, so too did the depth of public outrage not necessarily directed at the suspect, Luigi Mangione, but at the system that had made his alleged actions resonate so powerfully. The nation watched as a groundswell of support flooded into an unlikely corner of the Internet, a givesend Go campaign gathering momentum at a pace no one could have anticipated.
- [02:53]
Sam Beard
I've never seen anything that unites people across lines of political difference like this has in my lifetime.
- [03:01]
Jesse Weber
From Law and Crime and Twist I'm Jesse Weber and this is Luigi.
- [03:11]
Jamie Peck
My name's Sam Beard. I am host of the Party Girls podcast, which focuses on various social movements around the country and around the world. And I'm a spokesperson for the December 4 legal committee, the group that is fundraising for Luigi Mangione's legal defense on his behalf.
- [03:28]
Jesse Weber
Sam got some help from his friends, too.
- [03:31]
Sam Beard
I got involved a little bit after the fun was started.
- [03:33]
Jesse Weber
That's writer, activist, and podcaster Jamie Peck. She co hosts Party girls with Sam, and the two of them have emerged as the public faces of the December 4th legal committee. Jamie told us how their small but mighty group came together.
- [03:49]
Sam Beard
Some of us have known each other for a while. Some of us met online. Some of us have experience working with political prisoners. But we all have experience dealing with the horrible health care system in our country.
- [04:03]
Jesse Weber
This shared frustration became a driving force compelling them to take action. They knew they weren't alone in feeling that something needed to change. And the moment demanded more than just discussion. It called for collective effort.
- [04:20]
Jamie Peck
We're at a sort of a nexus in the human story where things will either continue to get worse, or maybe folks can band together and make things better. So we wanted to be a part of that, and this was our way of doing it. A lot of us had fundraising experiences for defendants with politicized charges or political prisoners. It's the past, and the team trusted ourselves to make sure that we would do this well, and we've got the skill sets to do this. Let's give it a shot. And it just so happened to catch.
- [04:52]
Jesse Weber
It. Sure did. The committee's efforts quickly gained traction, Proving that they had struck a chord with a much larger movement.
- [05:00]
Jamie Peck
We really were stirred into action because of not what transpired on December 4, but what transpired in the hours after that morning, which was like unprecedented wave of millions and millions of Americans trying to figure out the significance of what that event was. And immediately, the conversation pivoted towards the state of healthcare in this country and how dismal it is, how difficult it is to live a dignified, healthy life in this country. And it just felt like a really rupturous moment in a very important political moment in America's history.
- [05:41]
Jesse Weber
Faced with this stark reality, the group knew they had no choice but to step up. This wasn't just about one individual or one incident. It was about seizing a crucial moment to push for something greater, A struggle perfectly embodied by Luigi Mangione's case. From the outset, their mission was clear. No matter what the legal system had in store for Luigi Mangione, they would not let him stand alone.
- [06:10]
Sam Beard
As everyone knows, legal defense is very expensive. To get a good lawyer.
- [06:14]
Jesse Weber
The fundraiser was launched on Give Send Go, a Christian crowdfunding platform, and that choice was no accident. More mainstream platforms such as GoFundMe wasted no time shutting down any fundraisers connected to Mangione, citing policies against supporting individuals accused of violent crimes. Etsy followed suit by scrubbing their site of merchandise featuring Mangione's image, but GiveSendGo, known for hosting controversial fundraising efforts, welcomed the campaign with open arms. The funds were designated exclusively for Mangione's legal defense, and by December 11, just one week post launch, the fund had already raised $30,000 of its initial $200,000 goal. Money talks, and so does the comments section of the fund's page.
- [07:07]
Jamie Peck
We've got everything from registered nurses and healthcare workers to doctors themselves, surgeons, people who have had loved ones, or they themselves had claims denied by insurance companies.
- [07:21]
Jesse Weber
But it's not just an echo chamber. Scroll long enough and you'll find folks vexed by the idea of raising money for an alleged murderer who happened to have a fairly comfortable upbringing. He hails from an affluent Maryland family that owns a network of assisted living homes.
- [07:37]
Sam Beard
We've received some comments online saying, why would you raise money for a rich kid and why don't you give it to people who need help paying for their health care, etc. Etc.
- [07:48]
Jesse Weber
Regardless of opinion, the comments section took on a life of its own, a place for people to fill in the blanks in conversations they weren't seeing shake out in the mainstream media.
- [07:58]
Sam Beard
It's a channel for people to speak out when there are very few official channels for people to be expressing these kinds of feelings about it.
- [08:06]
Jamie Peck
Here's a quote from a Ethics and morality only work in a just society. When the justice system only protects the wealthy, we no longer live in a just society. Then the definition of what constitutes murder shifts. Brian Thompson was a corporate elite who profited from the pain, suffering and deaths of other people. Those people would not get justice in our unjust and corrupt system.
- [08:31]
Jesse Weber
While the outpouring of support was staggering, so too was the backlash. Critics called the fundraiser an endorsement of violence. They questioned how anyone could justify donating money to a man accused of murder. Here's a back and forth I had with trial lawyer and litigator Rich Showenstein on my other podcast, sidebar on this very topic.
- [08:53]
Rich Showenstein
So I have a different feeling about this outpouring of support. First of all, we've seen this all through history. Jesse James had fans. Bonnie and Clyde had fans. Al Capone had fans. So there's nothing new about that. Secondly, Is this an outpouring or just a bunch of nitwits on the Internet? Have we seen one person of any consequence put their name to it and go on a TV show and say, what this guy did is good and righteous and he should be congratulated? Has a single real person taken that position? I don't see. I haven't seen it.
- [09:31]
Jesse Weber
Have you? There are certain journalists who have been taken some creative liberties regarding this.
- [09:37]
Jamie Peck
And by the way, he received over.
- [09:39]
Jesse Weber
$500,000 in his legal defense fund. There was just reported that somebody put forward $11,000. One anonymous donor. That's real money. That's real support.
- [09:50]
Rich Showenstein
Yeah, I've heard that too. That's not a lot of money in the grand scheme of things. I mean, really, really. Listen, I'm. I'm surprised it's that much, right? I'm surprised that that many people gave money to an Ivy League educated rich guy who was accused of murder. Like, he doesn't need the money. He's got a family. Or he could get a public defender if he doesn't have the resources. So giving him money for his legal defense is garbage.
- [10:27]
Jesse Weber
Critics argued that allowing such a fund sends a dangerous message, glorifying violent acts and disrespecting the victim's family. Supporters counter that everyone deserves a fair trial and that high profile defendants often face disproportionate prosecutorial force. New York City Mayor Eric Adams even waded into the controversy, making a public showing of attending Mangione's extradition. Sam Beard had some strong opinions about that.
- [10:56]
Jamie Peck
Close your eyes for a moment and try to remember the perp walk that they put Luigi through. That's when the authorities marched the perpetrator, the accused, through public from one place to another, oftentimes from a police transport vehicle to court or something like that. But they do so in a way where they collaborate with the media. And we just saw how spectacular they really made that moment for Luigi where, of course, they fly him down in a helicopter. Eric Adams is there. There's like two or three dozen cops, several of which have, like, assault rifles around themselves. And then we just see Luigi in orange jumpsuit, shackled in the front. Of course, it's cold New York January weather, and he's in short sleeves, and they throw him into an armored van, treating him like Hannibal Lecter or something. They do so to just demonstrate the sheer power of the state and to really just show how captured and how small this person is. And at the end of the day, a lot of us feel like maybe that backfired.
- [11:55]
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- [12:56]
Jesse Weber
He might not be wrong. To the committee and to thousands of donors, this case was about more than the actions of one person.
- [13:05]
Jamie Peck
It's hard to untether, unsuture this like flashpoint of an incident that occurred on December 4th. From the larger context in which that was situated.
- [13:14]
Sam Beard
We cannot underestimate how angry people are at the insurance industry, especially after seeing years and years of efforts at reform just completely fail and be stopped at every turn by these incredibly powerful forces within capitalist society.
- [13:35]
Jesse Weber
A system of corporate greed and political negligence had left millions desperate and unheard.
- [13:42]
Jamie Peck
People have lost all faith in the system, in the proper channels of change, in the sort of like very tired narratives that somehow these like dinosaurs in Washington are going to bring about the positive social change that they've never been capable of doing or delivering on. And I think that's why people turn to these alternative media sources, because they're like, well, something's not clicking with me in the New York Post or whatever. So they turn to TikTok.
- [14:10]
Jesse Weber
Social media has been a breeding ground for zealous support of Mangione's alleged actions on Reddit X and TikTok. Responses to Brian Thompson's killing were far from what we've seen in other high profile murder cases.
- [14:24]
Jamie Peck
We see tens of millions, probably of Americans just shrugging it off.
- [14:31]
Jesse Weber
But on the flip side is the condemnation. The people who see supporters of Mangione and as morally bankrupt.
- [14:38]
Rich Showenstein
I think it's really terrible that some people seem to admire him. Like him. That's a sickness, actually. That's really very bad, especially the way it was done. It was so bad right in the back. It seems that there's a certain appetite for him. I don't get it.
- [14:56]
Jesse Weber
We asked Sam how he'd respond to those claims. He says the answer isn't so cut and dried.
- [15:02]
Jamie Peck
I'm glad to see people bringing up the question of what is just, what is moral, what is ethical? Sometimes we don't pause for a moment to sort of check in and say, what does all of this mean? What's the moral significance of this? And as a moral matter, it's horrible when anybody has their life cut short by another person, especially when it could have been prevented. But the same logic has to apply both ways, right? A CEO had his life cut short. A CEO who was regarded as being very effective in his field, but he was effective precisely because he profited from denying people claims which cut their lives short.
- [15:45]
Jesse Weber
Sam Beard takes a wider lens to the issue, highlighting a stark contrast. While individual acts of violence face intense moral scrutiny, the vast systemic harm inflicted by corporate and institutional forces, particularly the for profit healthcare industry, often goes unchallenged.
- [16:04]
Jamie Peck
Preventing people from getting the healthcare that they need, that you and your company have access to and could provide them, but don't do so because it would threaten your business model. That is an act of violence, too. We can't just apply a simple moral rule without acknowledging that we're in an immoral system that degrades the value of some lives while elevating the value of other lives to challenge. That is a political act. And when we treat it only as a moral act, we're sort of plugging our ears to its political content.
- [16:37]
Jesse Weber
Jamie Peck expressed nearly identical sentiments.
- [16:40]
Sam Beard
You want to talk about violence? This health care system kills thousands and thousands of people every year, completely avoidable deaths to enrich the profits of shareholders. So that kind of social murder is something that I want everybody to pay attention to and think about, because there are more kinds of violence than just one person shooting another person. And that violence is usually 99.9% of the time directed from the top down rather than the bottom up.
- [17:14]
Jesse Weber
The growing support for the defense fund would prove that a significant number of people stand with luigi Mangione. After 12 days, the defense fund skyrocketed past $130,000. And then the next day, December 17th, Mangione was charged with terrorism, sparking an entirely New debate.
- [17:36]
Sam Beard
I do think the terrorism charge is an excessive gambit by the state trying to send a message to anyone else who might be thinking about taking similar kinds of action against the ruling class and against the people who profit off of our sickness, death and misery, trying to make an example of him to everybody else. Mass shooters don't get charged with terrorism. Right wing violence doesn't get charged with terrorism, but this does. I think that shows you where the state's priorities really lie and who they exist to serve and protect.
- [18:14]
Jesse Weber
Meanwhile, the prosecution of Mangione ramped up with authorities pushing for the most severe punishment possible, setting the stage for federal charges that could lead to the death penalty. The December 4th legal committee saw this not just as a legal battle, but a political one.
- [18:31]
Jamie Peck
The reason for them coming down so hard, the state coming down so hard on Luigi and for the media coming down so hard against Luigi is not because of what Luigi's alleged to have done, but rather it's because of the widespread, unprecedented wildfire of support that came in its wake. And that is what is having the powers that be shaking in their boots. And that is why they're coming down so hard on this young man.
- [19:01]
Jesse Weber
Fearing that authorities may be stacking every available deck against him, the fund's organizers raised their target from $200,000 to a whopping $1 million, confident that supporters would continue to rally behind Mangione's defense.
- [19:17]
Jamie Peck
What we have seen is the entire weight of the state of New York, the city of New York, and the United States federal government, of all entities, throwing their force against this young man, laying out a series of charges, stepping stone charges that could lead to the most austere and inhumane punishment that the federal government has the ability to do, which, of course is state sanctioned murder, the death penalty.
- [19:46]
Jesse Weber
The growing severity of the charges seems to match the rising funds in the defense campaign. In other words, the harsher the government comes down on Mangione, the more support he appears to gain among the masses. By the end of January, it surpassed $330,000, drawing over 11,000 individual donors. The average contribution hovered around $30, a sign of grassroots enthusiasm rather than reliance on a few major benefactors. Then on February 10, some representatives from.
- [20:20]
Jamie Peck
Luigi's legal defense team reached out and said, hey, we just wanted to let you know that Luigi's aware of the fund and accepts the fund, and we would like to help make that possible.
- [20:33]
Jesse Weber
At this point, the fund had reached nearly $640,000.
- [20:39]
Jamie Peck
It's very important to all the donors that all of the money goes exactly where it's supposed to be going. And that process is well underway. And I just, I think that that's fantastic. I know it's extremely meaningful to the well over 12,000 donors, and I'm really grateful for the opportunity to help.
- [20:56]
Jesse Weber
Sam described the significance of the fund's success as twofold.
- [21:01]
Jamie Peck
One is that Luigi is prepared to mount the fiercest legal defense possible as afforded to him under his constitutional protections. And two, and perhaps more importantly, is that he is aware of just how much support he really has. And him and his team are perhaps willing to tap in to that unprecedented popular support that their client has in order to secure the strongest legal defense possible.
- [21:28]
Jesse Weber
And it's safe to say he has. Luigi Mangione's defense team is stacked with heavyweight talent. Karen Friedman Agnipholo, a former top Manhattan prosecutor, once oversaw major cases, including the prosecution of Harvey Weinstein before switching to high profile defense work. Her husband, Mark Agnifolo, has represented notorious figures like Martin Shkreli and Sean Diddy Combs, bringing deep experience in complex criminal cases. Jacob Kaplan, a specialist in white collar defense, adds another layer of expertise on the federal side. Avi Moskowitz, a veteran in capital cases, has been brought in as learned counsel to handle the death penalty angle. And in Pennsylvania, Thomas M. Dickey provides local legal firepower. This is a serious battle tested team one with deep insider knowledge of both prosecution and defense, ready to take on one of the most politically charged cases in recent history. But the Luigi Mangione Defense fund is more than just a legal war chest.
- [22:34]
Sam Beard
I really hope that we can take advantage of this moment as time goes on and the incredible amount of anger, fear, just fatigue with the healthcare system that people are expressing to really spur a new mass movement or contribute to the one that we already have in this country for a Medicare for all system like they have in the rest of the developed world.
- [22:57]
Jesse Weber
Whether this movement will influence policy changes remains to be seen. But one thing is clear. Mangione's story is far more than a courtroom drama. It is a flashpoint in an ongoing struggle over justice, economic inequality and the power of collective outrage. On the next episode of Luigi, we pull back the curtain on who Luigi Mangione really is with some of the people who knew him best. It is completely just incompatible with my close friend and the times we enjoyed together.
- [23:31]
Jamie Peck
And also just how I watched him treat other people.
- [23:35]
Jesse Weber
He was constantly just thoughtful and kind and would go out of his way.
- [23:40]
Sam Beard
To be there for others.
- [23:42]
Jamie Peck
There's nothing that could say this was right. There's nothing that could say that he's in his right mind, definitely not part of his character.
- [23:51]
Jesse Weber
So I don't know what pushed him over the edge.
- [23:55]
Sam Beard
Every narcissist needs one thing, a mirror. And for this guy, his mirror is the public that thinks he did a good thing, the right thing.
- [24:10]
Jesse Weber
This has been a Law and Crime and Twist production. I'm your host, Jesse Weber for Law and Crime. Our executive producer is Jessica Lowther. Our writer and senior producer is Cooper Mahl. Our editor is Anna McClain. Our bookers are Diane Kay and Alyssa Fisher. Legal review by Elizabeth Vouli and Stephanie Beach. Key art design by Sean Panzera for Twist Media. Our executive producers are Jane Latman and Haruka Wakimoto. Follow long crimes Luigi on the Wondery app. You can binge the entire series early and ad free right now on Wondery. Join Wondery in the Wondery app, Spotify or Apple Podcasts and get ad free access to even more thrilling law and crime series, including daily episodes of Sidebar with Jesse Weber. Start your free trial today.