How Social Media Is Destroying Democracy w/ Jonathan Haidt

Summary

Podcast Summary: Lunch with Jamie

Episode Title: How Social Media Is Destroying Democracy w/ Jonathan Haidt
Host: Jamie Patricof
Guest: Jonathan Haidt (Social Psychologist, Author of The Anxious Generation)
Date of Conversation: May 2024 (Published Aug 21, 2025)
Episode Theme:
A critical and candid discussion about how social media and smartphones have “rewired” childhood and adolescence since 2010, fueling an epidemic of anxiety, depression, and fragility among young people, and what concrete actions parents, schools, policymakers, and communities can take to reverse this trend.

---

Episode Overview

Jamie Patricof sits down with Jonathan Haidt, renowned social psychologist and author of The Anxious Generation, to discuss the seismic impact smartphones and social media have had on the mental health and development of young people post-2010. Haidt outlines why these technologies — in contrast to previous generational “moral panics” — represent an unprecedented challenge, offers a clear causation argument, breaks down what parents and communities can do, and ends with tangible action steps and reasons for optimism.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The “Anxious Generation” Defined

[03:10]

• Who: Kids born after 1995 in developed countries, especially those who came of age from 2010 onwards.
• What changed: Before 2010, children had a “recognizably human childhood”: play-based, face-to-face, with minimal digital involvement. After 2010, social media and smartphones became ubiquitous.
• Mental health data: Dramatic surge in rates of depression, anxiety, self-harm, and suicide — especially among girls aged 10–14, but also boys.

Quote:
“Our girls are incredibly depressed, anxious, fragile and self harming... If you’re an American teenage girl, there’s about a 1 in 3 chance that you’ve been thinking about suicide. About a 1 in 4 chance you’ve made a suicide plan at some point recently. This is just normal now.”
— Jonathan Haidt [05:01]

---

Why Did This Happen?

[05:01–07:40]

• Correlation around 2012-2013: Global spike occurred almost simultaneously in developed countries.
• Social media penetration: By 2015, nearly all kids were on smartphones and social platforms instead of meeting in person.
• Not a typical generational panic: Experimental data now shows causation, not just correlation — quitting social media increases well-being.
• The new ecosystem: A few companies (Meta, TikTok, Snapchat) “own our children’s childhood” — no legal liability, no real age verification, massive profit motive.

Quote:
“This is not just us, this is happening in most of the developed countries. And the question is why? There’s only one theory that can explain why this happens in so many countries around 2012, and that is smartphones and social media.”
— Jonathan Haidt [06:40]

---

Overprotection in the Real World, Underprotection Online

[11:52]

• Real-world overprotection: Fears about rare dangers (abductions, stranger danger) led parents to restrict independence and play.
• Paradox: Kids’ real-world freedoms shrank, while online they’re exposed to risks with virtually no guardrails — “blocked development” in crucial social, cognitive, emotional domains.

Quote:
“We’ve vastly overprotected them [in the real world]. Unfortunately, at the same time... the Internet comes in... and for a while they were [happy]. But now it’s clear: We’ve blocked our kids from developing and they’re not turning into healthy adults.”
— Jonathan Haidt [11:52]

---

Pushback & Counterarguments

[09:31]

• Critics argue this is a “moral panic,” comparing it to older concerns about books, comics, TV, etc.
• Haidt’s rebuttal: Historical trends are unprecedented in timing and scale. Experimental data and global synchronicity support causation.
• Opposition often comes from tech-funded researchers, but the “lived experience is overwhelming.”

Quote:
“The amazing thing is, wherever I go, because everyone has seen it — teachers, psychologists, parents — there’s hardly any pushback.”
— Jonathan Haidt [09:31]

---

What Can You Do for Your Kids Now?

[16:03]

• If your kids are already teenagers and using phones:
  • Don’t make them social outcasts by acting unilaterally (“now your kid is socially dead”).
  • Coordinate with other families—set norms together.
  • Create “no phone” periods: school hours, mealtimes, bedtime (“take half the waking hours out”).
  • Notifications: Help kids massively reduce notification volume — “They have no attention to really do anything of substance.”
• Modeling phone use: For teens, peer influence is much stronger than direct parental modeling. For infants/young kids, parental attention is vital.
• Discuss digital manipulation: Particularly effective with teens to frame tech companies as working against their interests (see [47:30]).

Quote:
“If your kid feels like, ‘oh, I’m the only one,’... they’re going to panic and it’s going to be horrible. But if... four families [act together], now you have a little more room… also, work with them to reduce their notifications by 80%.”
— Jonathan Haidt [17:36]

---

Social Media’s Impact on Adults

[29:01]

• Effects not as measurable clinically (no clear rise in depression), but “spiritually degrading” — adults feel fragmented, irritable, and less happy.
• Social media encourages hyper-judgment and erodes time for meaningful activities.

Quote:
“Judge not lest ye be judged is ancient wisdom. Social media wisdom is judge now, right now, immediately.”
— Jonathan Haidt [29:15]

---

Four Actionable Norms for Change

[31:30]

1. No smartphones before high school (okay to give a flip phone or basic communicator).
2. No social media before age 16. Social media “cannot be made safe” for early adolescents.
3. Phone-free schools. All-day, not just partial bans; “teachers hate the phones... schools want to ban them.”
4. More independence and free play. Reverse real-world overprotection; “give them an exciting childhood.”

Quote:
“With four simple norms, we can probably get most of the way back to where the numbers were in 2010... reduce the mental illness epidemic by a lot.”
— Jonathan Haidt [31:53]

---

Phone-Free Schools: Obstacles & Solutions

[36:22]

• Main obstacle: handful of parents who want 24/7 access to their child (sometimes due to fear of school shootings).
• Reality: In emergencies, phones are a liability — best for students to follow trained adults’ instructions.
• Requires “flooding the zone” with parent support so schools feel empowered to act.

Quote:
“All the teachers hate it, all the administrators hate it... flood the zone with parents saying, please go phone free. Give teachers a chance.”
— Jonathan Haidt [36:22]

---

Apple, Tech Companies, and Policy

[43:20]

• Tech companies could make child restrictions far better (e.g., a true “child mode” on devices).
• Current content filters are full of workarounds — so focus on delay, not just moderation.
• Legislation is needed: State action is happening (Florida, California). Congress has been inactive due to industry lobbying and scientific uncertainty (now resolving).
• Most impactful federal reform in the works: Kids Online Safety Act (KOSA).

Quote:
“These are the biggest, most powerful companies in human history... Congress created these two bad laws in the 90s. They’ve done nothing. They’ve passed zero laws since 1998... that has to change.”
— Jonathan Haidt [57:48]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the force of collective action:
  “Once you realize that if we all do it together... it would spread like wildfire. So I’m wildly optimistic.” — Jonathan Haidt [49:46]

• From a 19-year-old participant:
  “I definitely think a lot of it is an epidemic... I noticed the change in my learning habits. I think I’ve become, not stupider per se, but my study habits have been... increasingly worse. I think I’ve learned more in K through 6 than I did [in high school].” — Joseph [54:58]

• On Schools “fishing for minnows”:
  “Stop doing all those things. Those are minnows. There’s two big things you can do. Go phone free and become playful.” — Jonathan Haidt [60:50]

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction & Main Theme: [00:03–01:10]
• Who is the Anxious Generation? Data, Slides: [03:10–08:32]
• Pushback and Counterarguments: [09:31–11:29]
• Overprotection in Real Life, Underprotection Online: [11:52–13:58]
• Polls & Discussion on Independence: [14:39–17:30]
• Actionable Advice for Teen/Social Families: [16:03–23:59]
• Audience Q&A begins (adults & tech impact): [24:00–31:30]
• Four Norms Explained in Depth: [31:30–35:54]
• Phone-Free Schools — obstacles/solutions: [36:22–41:57]
• Policy, Tech Company Responsibility, Apple: [43:20–45:04], [57:48–59:27]
• Practical steps & optimism: [49:04–53:13]
• Closing thoughts, Joseph Campbell “standing on whales” analogy: [60:50–63:14]
• Episode Wrap: [63:57–end]

---

Action Items & Ways to Get Involved

• If a parent:
  • Coordinate with other parents to delay kids’ access to smartphones and social media.
  • Advocate at your child’s school for a true phone ban and more recess/free play.
  • Use tools like Let Grow (letgrow.org) for play and independence; check resources at afterbabel.com and anxiousgeneration.com.
• If an educator:
  • Lead or support efforts for phone-free campuses and play-based learning.
• If a policymaker or advocate:
  • Push for state/national age limits on social media and standards for device safety.
• If you work in tech:
  • Advocate internally for real child-safety features and responsible product design.
• Collective action is key:
  The more families, schools, and institutions join, the more feasible and culturally “normal” these changes become.

---

Final Words & Tone

The conversation is candid, urgent, sometimes sobering but ultimately deeply hopeful. Haidt frames the problem as one we can — and must — solve with old-fashioned, collective civic action. The episode ends with a strong sense of shared purpose and possibility.

“Together we are going to win collective action. We’re going to turn this thing around.”
— Jonathan Haidt [63:57]

---

For More:

• Jonathan Haidt’s work: anxiousgeneration.com, After Babel Substack, letgrow.org
• Podcast, newsletter, events: jamieslist.com

Transcript

[A]

On today's episode of Lunch with Jamie, we're sharing a conversation I had with social psychologist Jonathan Haidt back in May 2024. We discussed the impact of smartphones on children, had a candid conversation on how parents can take action, and spoke about the role tech companies should have in protecting young people from the harmful effects of smartphones. We also discussed why digital literacy education is so important and much more. Since this conversation, the national dialogue around smartphone and social media use amongst children has become even more widespread, with some states even banning them in schools, including right here in California. Now here's my conversation with Jonathan Haidt.

[B]

Welcome to another Lunch with Jamie. As I mentioned over an email, this is such a critical zoom that I really wanted to open this up to not just official members of this community, since many of this is your first time ever being on one of these zooms. This is a place where I host conversations with thought leaders ranging in diverse fields from politics to entertainment to business, and the goal is to have a casual conversation and get a chance for you to ask questions. Anyone who's not a member, I'd love you to join. There's gonna be a link in the chat to apply for membership, so please take a second to fill that out if you'd like to join. And now onto our guest. You at this point, if you don't know who John Haidt is, I don't exactly know what to say. He is everywhere and we are lucky. He's everywhere and the work he's doing is critical. He's written a handful of books, but the most recent one, the Anxious Generation, has Taken the World by Storm and it is better than the New York Times bestseller list. I don't know what that list is, but it is. So John, I really want to thank you for being here and I want to thank you for your work and want to introduce you to this wonderful community. So I want to. I want to start a bit at the end of the conversation. I, like most people, probably read this book and went through a ton of feelings. My kids may or may not be on this zoom, but I felt like I failed as a parent. I felt how could I let all this happen to them? But the a really exciting thing I have to say is I and call me just an eternal optimist. I make a lot of depressing movies. I always say that they're really hopeful. In the end I got really energized and excited and I felt optimistic at the end of this book. I don't know if that's that's me being crazy because I feel like there's so many things we can start doing today, tomorrow, and we can actually make a dent and make an impact. And as I already mentioned to you, I've already started that since, since reading the book, and I'm excited to get to the end of this conversation with action items that we can do. If people have questions, raise your hand and we'll try and get to them. We're going to get to the people who are members first. So, John, who is the anxious generation? Let's set the table for us. You know, tell, tell, tell the audience where you know what that term really means.

[C]

Sure. So. Well, first, thanks so much for having me on. Parents are up in arms around the world. The revolution is starting. Parents are coming together to change things. So I'm really optimistic. First. So thank you, Jamie, for letting me talk to this group. With many influential people, I'll say at the end, some things you can do to spread the message, because social pressures and social contagion is what caused people to get locked into this. But social forces and social cooperation is what's going to break us out. So, in brief, the anxious generation is people in developed countries who were born after 1995. What we noticed on campus in 1995, and I wrote a whole book about this with Greg Lukianoff, the Coddling the American Mind. What we noticed is that students who arrived on campus around 2014, 2015, were really different from those that we'd been teaching, say, back in 2012. In 2012, they were all millennials. And in 2015, we thought they were still millennials. But now we know. No, the generations changed with birth year 1996. The first thing we noticed was that all of our mental health centers were flooded. They weren't flooded in 2012. By 2015, they were all full all around the country, military academies, I mean, everything. It was a universal thing. And they were much more fragile. They felt easily harmed. So something was very strange. And we thought at first it was college was doing this, but no, it turns out even before kids get to college, now that I have stats, actually. Well, if you, if it's okay with, I mean, Jamie, I actually could show a few. I mean, if I show a few slides, it'll make it clear exactly what's happening. Can I do that, or do you want to keep the conversation?

[B]

Yeah, let's, let's, let's, let's start, let's start there. Let's have the table where we are for this.

[C]

Okay, sure. Yeah. Let Me. Okay, so let me try that. Let me share my screen. Okay, I'm going to share screen number two. Screen number one. Rather desktop one.

[B]

Share.

[C]

Okay, so I think you can all see the slides now. So I'll just say that what caused this? It's a two part story. First the play based childhood disappeared. We stopped letting our kids out, we overprotected them. And that began in the 80s and 90s. But the really dramatic part is 2010 to 2015. It's a complete rewiring of childhood and here's what happens during that time. So this is what we saw in college. These were the rates of various disorders in 2010 and all the way up to 2012 they were level. But all of a sudden things go up. But especially psychological disorders, that's the main thing that increases. So we're flooded by 2016 and it's primarily anxiety and depression. In all the graphs you'll see there's Nothing happening before 2010. And then after 2010 this happens. Levels of anxiety and depression. This is college. Mental health services go skyrocketing upwards. It's very, very sudden. And it's just young people. It's not that everyone is getting anxious in the 2010s. Um, it's primarily the youngest group. Middle aged people aren't any more anxious now than they were 2010, 20 years ago. And most of these things are gendered actually here in the rates of depression you see that the percent increase is actually similar but because girls start at a higher level. So depression and suicidal thinking is now a normal part of American girlhood. If you're an American teenage girl, there's about a 1 in 3 chance that you've been thinking about suicide. About a 1 in 4 chance you've made a suicide plan at some point recently. This is just normal. Now our girls are incredibly depressed, anxious, fragile and self harming. This is not just self report, it's not just that they say oh yes, I'm so depressed because it's cool to be depressed. It's actually behavior as well. So when we look at hospital admissions what we see is this is the rate per 100,000. And especially if we look at the younger teen girls, this is really important. It's the 10 to 14 year old teen girls. They're the ones whose lives were completely turned upside down by whatever it is that happened. And so here are the rates of hospitalization, hospital visits for self harm. And then this happens. So 188% increase, nearly a tripling for the younger teen girls. Big increase for the older teen girls as well. And we see the same thing in suicide again for the younger teen girls. We see the biggest increases. The boys are up 109%. The girls are up 134% from a lower baseline. There was a 67% increase in suicides in one year, 2012 to 2013. And that wasn't a blip what happened in 2012. So everything's really concentrated on 2012, 2013. Something really changes in the lives of girls. And once I found out that it was the same in Britain. So here's British data, same thing in the early 2010s, the lines go crazy. And Australia, New Zealand, somewhat in Scandinavia. So this is not just us, this is happening in most of the developed countries. And the question is why? And there's only one theory, there's only one theory on the table that can explain why this happens in so many countries around 2012. And that is that in 2010 kids had a recognizably human childhood with flip phones that they used to connect with other kids and get together in person. And by 2015 everyone was holding up a phone in front of their face and spending a lot of time on social media and spending much less time with their friends. That is what I believe happened. That's why we have an anxious generation. And I will stop my screen share there. I hope you didn't mind this little mini lecture from a professor and let's return to lunch with Jamie.

[B]

No, that was great and you're right that really helpful. And Nick asked the question the, about the slides. I hope everybody's bought Jonathan's book the Anxious Generation. It's a book you have to own. He also has a great subset called After Babel. There are all these slides are in those books, in the book and on his substack and I really encourage you to do that. So since we, since we did start with the slides, I, I do want to do one thing and I, I'm all in on your research, I'm all in your thesis. I, I have a 15 year old daughter and an 18 year old daughter. So I am in the eye of the storm. A little older than, than that generation. But, but you know, but, but basically in the storm there is, there has been a little pushback in different communities and I am curious if this was a debate and you were debating, now you had to debate the other side. What are just some of those things that people say that, that are other, that are kind of counter to your, your thesis?

[C]

Sure, yeah. So the pushback. There's been hardly any pushback. It's been quite extraordinary, expected a lot of opposition and there are about five or six other researchers that I've been in a debate with for years. So yes, they have pushed back and there's a, that's a normal academic debate and I'm glad to go into that. But the amazing thing is, wherever I go, because everyone has seen it, teachers have seen it, psychologists have seen it, parents have seen it. So there's hardly any pushback. But what pushback there is, is from a group of researchers, several of whom are funded by the tech industry, but not all of them. And what they say is this is just another moral panic. We've seen this before with comic books and before that, bicycles and novels. Anything the kids are doing, the older people freak out and say it's terrible. But look, it turns out okay, that's a perfectly reasonable starting hypothesis. And back when, in 2019, when the data was all correlational, almost all correlational, there weren't many experiments, you could say, well, sure, everything goes up at the same time that Facebook buys Instagram and the kids are getting on, but that could just be a coincidence. But once you see that it's happening all over the world at the same time now, it's a very weird coincidence. Secondly, in the social sciences, the question of correlation versus causation is our bread and butter. This is the central thing we do. And I have been really careful about this. I've been posting articles, I've been collecting all the research, not just on my side, but on both sides. All the studies that show an experimental effect or not. And there are now about 25 experiments and the great majority of them show that when you get off social media you get happier. So we have causal evidence, we have evidence of direct causation. So a lot of the charges that they're making are just not true. They say it's all correlational. It's not. They say it's just a change in self report. But the self harm data shows that's not true. So There are about 10 or 15 common arguments that they all make. And I've got, they're very easy to respond to.

[B]

That makes total sense to me and I think it is so clear. So we talked about this previously, but I think one of the most important themes from this book that I took is this, this trend of we have overprotection in the real world now and under protection in the virtual world. Can you explain what you mean by that?

[C]

Sure. So you know we all love our, our children and we all respond to the threats that we hear around us. And as we all got hyperconnected by more and more media, by cable TV in the 80s and 90s and now by the Internet, stories about threats to our kids become much more common. And in, in the 1980s, there were, there were a couple of abductions. We began to get the milk cartons with the kids of photos of missing children. So Americans really freaked out. Not in Europe, they didn't do this. In Australia, New Zealand, they didn't do this. But in America and to a lesser extent, Canada and the uk, we lost trust in, in our neighbors. We began to think that if we ever let our kids out to play, they will be abducted, they will be. There will be a sex predator. Americans don't even let their kids wander two aisles over in the supermarket. Most of them, we're afraid they'll be abducted in the supermarket. Like, how is someone going to do that? The kid's going to be yelling and screaming. Makes no sense. But we're so afraid. So we've vastly overprotect them. We don't let them out where we think there's physical danger. And unfortunately, at the same time that was happening in the 90s really, is when it really kicks in. The Internet comes in and it's amazing. And the kids love it, especially the boys. And the boys are sitting on computers, especially, and playing on the Internet. And that's great. Everyone's happy, they're safe. And the earlier Internet was amazing. Those of you old enough to remember, it was like God came down and said, hey, do you want omniscience? Here you go. I mean, the Internet was and still is absolutely amazing. And back then it wasn't very dangerous. Like all of these things in the tech world, they start off lovely. You know, TikTok is dance videos. It's nice. They all start off nice, but then they go to hell. Um, so we let our kids on. They spend more and more time on. Everyone's happy, right? Well, their mental health doesn't really decline, actually. It's not until they get smartphones and social media, which they have with them all the time. So we got lulled into this thinking that everyone was happy. And for a while they were. But now it's clear. We've blocked human development of sexual development, social development, cognitive development. We've. We've blocked our kids from developing and they're not turning into healthy adults.

[B]

Yeah, we talked about that. I mean, then it's one of my arguments. My wife she's convinced that, you know, if the kids go out alone, that, you know, it's all over and, you know, it's undeniably, statistically safer today. It's not even a comparison. So I think, you know, that's. It's. Obviously perception is important, but not at the detriment of so many other aspects. I do. We're going to run some polls today. More. Much more than normal. Because I think there's a lot of questions. Uh, one of them, the first one, relates to when you are allowed to go out unsupervised and when you allow your kids to go out unsupervised. Uh, so you just keep an eye out for some polls. Uh, and there's another question about breaking bones.

[C]

Oh, yeah, good. No, I see it. Yeah. Independent play, number one. I see it. Under polls, quizzes. Very good. Yeah. If everybody would fill that out. Yeah. At what age were you allowed to go out? You know, go on your bicycle, go to a store, go with your friends. No parents with you. No adults.

[B]

Someone. John, I don't know if you mentioned this, the book here. Remember someone mentioned to me that there was a kidnapping movie that was in the 80s or 90s that really rolled. I was blank. And this is a lot of Hollywood on here. It really does show you how important kind of popular media is.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

To these issues.

[C]

Do you remember what I was talking

[B]

about at the movie?

[C]

Yeah, no, I know it was. Oh, who was. It wasn't Sally Strothers was Sissy. Who was it? Who was the woman who. Her daughter is murdered. And then the murderer in the trial, he says Sis. Sorry. Imitating the girl that he killed. What's the name of the movie? Put it in the chat.

[B]

Someone knows. Someone.

[C]

Someone knows. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. So talk to us.

[D]

The

[B]

good thing about this is that you again. I don't want to keep getting to the end, but I do want to come out of this with real, Real ideas and real. And real concrete tools of how to get out here. We do have a lot of people with different age groups on here. Talk to us a little bit about they. The kids who already passed this time already passed. And we're in high school and they are on their phones. What are. What are things people can be doing if you're at that point.

[C]

So. So the. The main thing to keep your eye on is. Is normal, healthy childhood. And I'd love to see the results. Yeah, Jamie, whenever you have the results of the last poll, I'd love to see it. Can you post that? Because I Want to ask this? Yeah, See if we can post that.

[B]

Okay, here we go. So independent play. Most people were allowed basically over 60% between 6 and 10 years old. And that's when we were allowed to let out play. When we let our. When we were allowed to let our. To go out and play. Anna, do you have the poll of the second one yet?

[C]

Sorry, yeah. So this is what I find all over the country. I find usually 6 to 8 is by far the dominant one. There might be some younger people on this call as well, but, but for people who were Gen X and older. So millennials, a bunch of millennials on the call. Millennials were often a little later. But if we had limit this to people born before 1980, it would be overwhelmingly six to eight. That's when that was the norm all over the country, 6 to 8. Okay, so now if you have the second poll, which is about, well, I hope it's like about what you would do with your kids. Is that the one?

[B]

Exactly.

[C]

Oh, good. Yeah. So everybody think about if you have kids, either what age did you let them out or what age were you planning on letting them out before you got on this call and heard me saying no, do it much earlier. So let's see if they can get that up. How much? I see. Where is it? Is it up? The poll?

[B]

Anna, is the poll up?

[E]

Sorry, it's running right now.

[B]

Okay, there you go.

[C]

Sorry.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Oh, there it is. Oh, wait, yeah, Polls, quizzes. Oh, I see how to get it. You go to polls, quizzes. Okay, Independent, what age will you let your kids out? And. Yeah, okay. All right. So anyway, so the reason why I'm starting off my answer to Jamie's question by making sure we have the poll is that I don't want everyone to focus just on the phones and taking away screen time. I want people to think more about a healthy childhood. And if you think back to when you were a kid and, you know, think about what was most exciting, think about all the things that were fun, think about your best memories. Probably your parents weren't around. Probably we were with some friends. You were getting into some trouble, you were taking some risks. It was really exciting. And imagine taking all of that away from your kids. They don't get any of that. They sit on a screen all day long. So when you think about the total transformation of childhood, now the question is, what should you do if your kid is 15, 16 years old? Like Jamie's, like mine. I have a 17 year old son and a, and a 14 year old daughter. Oh, and my 17 year old son is just got into USC, he's going and so I'll be out in LA a bunch more, very excited about that. And so what can you do if you have a 16 year old kid whose life is on, on her phone? I would not urge you to take away the phone because now your kid is socially dead, she's an outcast. If you have younger kids, you should prevent them getting on. We'll talk about that later. But there are a number of things you can do. First of all, you should talk with the parents of a few of your kids friends because anything you do, if your kid feels like, oh, I'm the only one, oh dad, you're going to make me isolated, they're going to panic and it's going to be horrible. But if it's, if it's like, well you know, we, the four families, you know, we all, we want to give you a fun childhood. So yeah, we are going to put some limits on your phone use. But you know what, we're going to give you a lot more independence and we're going to encourage you guys to go out together, you know, go bowling, go to the amusement park, go do things together without any adults so you can focus on coordinating with other families, giving them a lot more play and independence in small groups which is the most fun thing that they can do. And now you have a little more room, a little more credit to do things like create no phone periods in their day. Many kid, about half of all American kids say that they are online almost all the time because they're online in school, they're online, you know, they just hold, they have the phone down below their desk, they're online on the school bus, they're online at lunch, they're online at dinner with you. A lot of half Americans are online all the time. And that, I mean you can't possibly, your brain can't possibly develop on this planet if that's what you're doing. So you got to stop that. And so you can create large blocks of time when they're not doing that one is school. So you've really got to push, if your kids are in high school, you really got to push the high school to go phone free. Let them have six hours a day away from their phone. It's so good for them. They'll talk with other kids, they'll listen to the teachers. Everyone loves it when they go phone free. Meal times must be absolutely phone free. Don't allow anyone to pull out a phone to look up something because then everyone wants to go for their phone. Nighttime bedtime must be phone free. So if you get school meal time and all phones on, you know, on the kitchen counter by 10 o' clock at night or some number, well, right there now your kid can only be on her phone half the day. You've already taken half of the waking hours out of. So there's a lot you can do to reduce it and give them more experience in the real world and also work with them to reduce their notifications by 80%. A huge problem is that for all of us is that our attention is fragmented. Right. There's always stuff coming in, but almost all of it is not that important. We should not be giving companies the right to interrupt us or our children whenever the company wants to turn off. Almost all notifications keep on Uber and Lyft. Of course you don't want to know when the car is coming. But what other companies are so important that you want to, that you give them the right to take away your limited attention? Your kids have given away almost all of their attention. They have no attention to really do anything of substance. You've got to help them get back at least a couple hours a day to do something.

[B]

How much do you think? I'll admit it, I'm a phone addict. I, you know, I spend a minimum of eight hours on my phone. I just looked at it on my screen time. I'm sure, I'm sure everybody's in some varying degrees of that. How much do you think it's fair to say it's what we're modeling for the kids? I mean, I'm just devastated. Every night I'm sitting on a couch and my kids trying to talk to me and I'm staring at my phone and I just can't put it down and, and they get mad at me and then I do it again.

[C]

Yeah. So it certainly is bad to do that. It's blocking the relationship. You're blocking a bid. Think about social life as a series of bids for connection. And if you're turning down bids from your teenage kids, which are so precious and so rare. Yeah, Jamie, yeah, you gotta, you gotta work on that. But as for whether your teenage kids are copying you, I mean, if I start reading the economist, is my 14 year old daughter gonna say, oh, I'm gonna read the Economist too? Like, no, no, teenage kids don't give a damn what you're doing. They don't wanna be like you. They are copying the prestigious people in their orbit and you Know who's prestigious because they have the most followers and the most likes. So our, our learning mechanisms to follow the prestigious are totally hijacked, very deliberately hijacked by these companies. Instagram. The co founder of Instagram, Mike Krieger, he took a course at Stanford called Persuasive Technology where they all learned to do this. My point is, yes, you should get a handle on your phone use, but it's not because your kid is going to copy you. Now, if you have infants, it's very different. If you have an infant or young toddler, they really need the back and forth. They need the mutual gaze, the eyes locking, the laughter, the taking turns. Your infants, your very young kids, they really need that. So if you've got a very young child, don't be doing the continuous partial attention thing where you're like, you know, yeah, oh yeah, that's the bunny. Yes, bunny. And then you go back to your phone, you know, don't, don't be doing that. Like, you know, you really gotta be totally on with your infant. That doesn't mean you have to be on six hours a day, but like when you're on, be really on with them socially.

[B]

Great. I'm going to go to our first question. It's going to be Ronald Gutman, who's currently on Broadway and Patriots. Everybody make sure to go check that out.

[F]

Thank you for that quick question. I had the pleasure of meeting you with Jonathan Sacks at NYU many years ago.

[B]

Oh my.

[C]

Oh yes, the wonderful Jonathan Sacks, may he rest in peace.

[F]

Now, just to create a little bit of an argument, everybody agrees with you, I'm sure we. How can we not? Jillian Tet, whom we all know from the Financial Times, has written a very interesting article about this and she's talking about the generation P as in playlist pick. And Nicholas, it says that the new generation. When you say that we. I don't believe we have enough data yet as to how it transforms the intelligence, the responsiveness, the compassion that children have. We don't know enough yet.

[C]

I believe

[F]

the kids are using the phone to.

[C]

That's what she says.

[F]

She's developing this argument to collaborate with their peers to create tribes they trust much more information coming from the size lateral of their people rather than the doctor, the father, the teacher. It's all changing in a lateral way. And I believe that's an interesting image to consider them as pick and mix as we do ourselves when we create playlists. And she calls the young people. And it is better to work with it than against it. And so that's the argument that I'm making for you to respond to.

[C]

Okay, well, that's a perfectly good argument. Changes in technology are always incredibly disruptive and a lot gets destroyed and people lament what gets destroyed and they don't fully appreciate what's being created. And of course, we can't even know what's going to be created 10, 20 years from now. So if we're talking about the Internet, I'm totally with you. Yes, that all makes sense for the Internet, but people confuse the Internet with social media. So all the things you said were true in the 90s of the millennials, when they were beginning to use the Internet for all those things. The Internet is fantastic. The Internet is one of the greatest inventions in human history. Yes, there are a lot of problems, but the benefit is enormous. And it does all the things you said. Now, the early Internet was very distributed. You couldn't make any money on it. It was all connected, it was great. Now we have the super concentrated Internet where three companies own our children's childhood. Our children now spend most of their time on platforms from Meta, TikTok and Snapchat. There's some others, but those three, they own our children's childhood. They have no legal liability. They can do whatever they want to our children and we can't sue them. It's being tested in court, but so far no one's ever been able to sue them. They have complete immunity and they have no immune systems. They didn't build any immune systems into their systems. They sort of tried to do it post hoc. So they've created attractive nuisances, hazards. They own our children's childhood. They don't age. Verify. They don't want to age. Verify. They take no responsibility. This is not the utopia that you and Gillian Tet were just talking about. This is a nightmare. This is our kids being wide open to predation. You should send your kids out if you want to keep them safe because there are not very many sex predators out there at the playgrounds anymore. You know why? They're all on Instagram. It's so much safer for them to be on Instagram. They can exchange photos with, you know, they can pretend they're a 14 year old boy and they can get a girl to send a naked picture of herself or her dancing in a bathing suit. So. So I really want to distinguish between the Internet, which is wonderful and transformative of humanity, and social media, which are a few predatory companies using an advertising based business model that is addicting our kids, making Them regret it. Older kids say, I wish it was never invented. The majority of older kids say I wish this was never invented. What kind of consumer product is it where most of its users wish it never existed?

[B]

That's a great distinguishment. Thank you for the question and also thank you for the answer. Next we're going to go to Michael Jackson to stay on Broadway. Michael is the creator of A Strange Loop which is about to open in Los Angeles. And Tony and the Pulitzer. Michael, hi.

[G]

I was wondering, Jonathan, do you think that this sort of social media capture is mostly a problem for kids or most problem with kids? I feel like I see it in adults as well and I even use myself as an example like I think. And it's something I've been become more aware of over the last couple of years where like I feel like a lot of information that I've absorbed, language that has changed has just sort of migrated into me via social media without me even really being conscious of it. And it's something I'd had to like become conscious of and sort of be careful about. And, and I, I mean I don't spend, I don't have any children. So that's part of the reason why I'm asking this. But, but I do feel like I see it in adults. So I'm just wondering, do you think.

[C]

Oh, absolutely, absolutely. I've focused on kids for two reasons. One is because in terms of the mental health effects like depression, anxiety, self harm, suicide, I can really show the effects on kids. But as you saw on the graphs, I can't show that people in their 40s and 50s are more depressed because of this. So if we just look at mental health, I'm focusing on the kids. But by the end of the book I realize, wait, the whole book was about kids. But it is affecting all of us. I'm just like you say, I feel overwhelmed and fragmented and I'm barely on social media. But when I was on Twitter, more, you know, if, when people are saying bad things about me, it's very hard to brush off. I mean it would. And whenever I post something on Twitter I go back and check it 20 times to see, you know, it's like I can't help it. So it's affecting all of us. I have a whole chapter in the book, chapter eight on how basically it's spiritually degrading. That's the way to put it all together. But it makes us do exactly the opposite of what ancient wisdom advises us to do. It makes, you know, judge not lest ye Be judged is ancient wisdom. Social media wisdom is judge now, right now, immediately. Because if you don't judge now, someone's going to judge you for not judging. So it just makes us hyper judgmental. It mires us in a sort of a dust storm of trivia and anger and resentment. So it certainly is bad for all of our spiritual development. It's bad for our happiness. I can't say it causes clinical depression necessarily, but to the extent that you're a heavy user, if you're a heavy user of this stuff of social media especially, think, what are you missing out on? What is it pushing out? And if it's just pushing out reality tv, okay, fine, it's just a different entertainment, but probably it's pushing out time with friends and time with family. So we have to always look at the opportunity cost. There's a cost to all these things. Thanks for that question.

[B]

All right, I'm having a technical difficulty, so, so, Jonathan, now I want to, I want to go backwards a bit, and I want to get really into the meat of the book, which really does deal with sort of these younger kids. And I want to talk about, you know, some of the, the, some of the things that you think really can be done to actually make a, to make a, an impact here. I mean, I, I, you know, we have, you have your four, you know, we could, we talk about the, the four topics now because we only have a half hour and, and we're gonna. Sure, you know, so let's, let's talk about the four things that can be done.

[C]

Yeah, sure. So, you know, so I'm a social psychologist, and, and you know, some of my critics say, oh, he's, he's not a developmental psychologist. He hasn't been studying teens in social media for decades like I have. What does he know? But they seem to have entirely missed the collective action aspects of social media. The fact that kids are not on it because they love it. They're on it because they're trapped. They can't get off because everyone else is on. And so my book is really from a social psychological point of view. And once you see that, the pressure on all of us parents to give our kids a phone at the age of 10. Now it's around 9 or 10 is when kids are getting phones. Now the pressure on us is that our kid says, dad, I'm the only one who doesn't have an iPhone. Everyone else has an iPhone. I'm left out. They're making fun of me. And that really hurts us to hear. So we give in. So that's a collective action problem. If we would all just say, no, we're not going to give you a smartphone till high school, then there'd be no pressure. But we have to organize to do that. And that's what I'm trying to do. So by the end of the book it was clear. Once the analysis was clear and the harms were clear, the solution became clear. And it was, with four norms, we can roll back the phone based childhood. With four simple norms, we can probably get most of the way back to where the numbers were in 2010. We can reduce the mental illness epidemic by a lot. They're very simple. One, no smartphone till high school. We have to get this entirely out of the lives of middle school students. You can give them a flip phone, you can give them a phone, you know, an Apple watch. You can have a way to text them and let them text you. That's valuable if you, I want you to let your kids out. I want your kids to be independent. I want them to go to, you know, go to amusement parks, go to, go bowling, do, you know, do stuff on their own. So fine, have a way to call and text. But you don't want to give a child the entire Internet in their pocket. If they have the Internet in their pocket and they have it with them all the time, that means they're not going to be talking with their friends very much. They're going to be exposed to things like the Cat in the Blender video and all kinds of horrible, horrible things that circulate. Yes, it is what you think it is. So just don't give them the Internet in their pocket until at least high school. Now, for health reasons, it should be even later. But I'm trying to get a national norm as a minimum, then that's high school. The second norm is no social media until 16. This stuff is just not suitable for children and it cannot be made suitable. Even if Instagram only had photos of beautiful girls having happy lives, would that be good for your daughter to spend hours a day on? Hell no. So there is no way to make this stuff healthy for children in early puberty. Early puberty is such a sensitive time. So we've got this now here. You can do it yourselves if you have other families doing it with you, if your kid is not the only one. But here's where we really need legislative help. So the Florida bill is great. There are a bunch of states now have said 16 is the age. Florida says, okay, 14, 15 if you have parental consent which is okay with me, but we've got to raise the age to 16. At present, anyone who's old enough to lie about their age can open an infinite number of accounts and they can go on pornhub. They can go everywhere. It's insane that we give our kids the Internet. There's no age gating anywhere. The third norm is phone free schools. This is the easiest. This is the one we can do by September. And it's happening. If your school, if the kids, if the school that your kids go to, if they allow the kids to keep the phone in the pocket, then you should be raising hell because that means your kids are learning a lot less. They're also lonelier school. Loneliness went up after 2012 all around the world because all of a sudden kids aren't playing with each other at school. Everyone's on their phone at school. So you've got to lock the phones up in the morning, give them back in the afternoon. And then the fourth norm is far more independence, free play, and responsibility. In the real world, if we're going to reduce screen time by a lot, we can't just make them just sit there and do nothing. We have to give them an exciting childhood. We have to give them back the kinds of freedom and adventure that we had growing up in a much more dangerous time. So those are the four norms. No smartphone before high school. No social media before 16 phone free schools, more independence, free play and responsibility. 4 norms. We can roll this. I can keep talking. Jamie, if you're, if you're having technical difficulties. What's going on?

[B]

Sorry about that. Can you hear me now?

[C]

Yep, I hear you.

[B]

Okay, great. Sorry about that. So clear and so, you know, obviously not simple. You know, the phone. I want to talk. Double down on the phone free schools for a minute because that is something that I think is really attainable. And we can, as people, we can go to our schools today and make that request. What's the biggest pushback you see and get in regards to that for fun?

[C]

Free schools. There's only one pushback. Well, with two branches. So all the teachers hate the phones. A lot of them are quitting because they can't get the kids attention. You can't compete with a kid that has all these toys and fun things on their desk that they're using. So all the teachers hate it, all the administrators hate it. The schools want to ban it. But some parents freak out, freak out because they have to be able to talk to their child during math class. They have to be able to Text them. You know, you know, you hear stories about a mother who calls in because the heart, the, the monitor that the kid's wearing, it shows his heart rate is accelerating. Why is my son's heart rate accelerating? She wants an answer like, you know, there's some very overprotective, over involved parents who freak out. But this is the problem of every political system. If you have a small number of people that care a lot, they have veto power. And so the principals hate it. But they can't ban it. They can't often, they can't impose a real phone ban because a small number of parents freak out. And then those parents always say, school shootings. What about school shootings? And that's of course understandable emotionally. But school security experts say the last thing you want in an emergency is for all the kids to be on their phones calling their parents. The thing you want in an emergency is for all the kids to be following instructions, doing what you practiced for following the teacher, doing what they're supposed to, being quiet. You know, you, you. So phones do not help in a school shooting because all the adults are going to have a phone. I mean, they're going to be able to say, where's the shooter? You know, so, so what has to happen is we have to flood the zone with parents saying, please go phone free. Give the, you know, as, as one teacher said, give teachers a chance. Go phone free. Your kids are lonelier and they're learning less. Kids are literally stupider now than they were 10 years ago. This is, this is on objective measures of academic attainment. Not just newest but around the world dropping since 2012. Because I mean, imagine, you know, when we were kids, imagine if we could bring in our television set and put it on our desk and our walkie talkies and our phone record players and the cameras. If you could bring all your toys and put on your desk, you wouldn't learn anything. And that's what's happening.

[B]

I am, I promise I wouldn't throw this person under the bus. And it's a preview to our next zoom, but Eric Swalwell, Congressman, is here and he and I were talking about this Zach point and school shootings being one of the things that there's an issue with, and the pushback on phone free schools. Eric, would you mind chiming in here and giving us a little that perspective?

[H]

Yeah, no, thank you, Jamie.

[C]

Wait, did we just lose him?

[B]

We just lost his audio.

[C]

Oh, no.

[H]

Oh, hey, thank you. Jamie and Jonathan and I have a seven year old, a five year old and a two year old. So I'm, I'm living these decisions every day. But Jamie and I were talking yesterday because I completely agree about, ideally when my kids, you know, have phones, that they would not be in the schools. But I also shared with him, like our two oldest, they have sheltered in place six times this school year for shootings that have taken place like on the block of the school or in front of the school. And it's, and I told Jamie, it's not rational, but it is kind of a. It's not rational to want your kid to be able to communicate to you like if they're okay or not. Because as you said, you wanted to follow the instructions of the people who can help them. But because we are this like impatient, order an Uber, have it at our door in a, you know, a couple minutes type of society. Like, I think for many parents, just the thought of not having an answer. And so we're living this because our kids don't have phones. And so we'll wait an hour or so after the shelter in place, notice goes out. But the older kids at the school, their parents insist that their kids have phones because they want to be able to know immediately. And so I think this really falls on the schools and the teachers to kind of have a contract with the parents that the second we can communicate directly to you, we will. And then I think that takes that argument off the table.

[C]

Yeah, I think that that would help. I mean, I sympathize. My kids in New York City have never had a lockdown in their entire time here in the city. So I understand why that would increase the fear. You know, the, the, the job of a parent is to work him or herself out of a job. We have to get a broad understanding that our goal is that our kids can function on their own without us. Unfortunately, when kids come to college, they still haven't reached that point. Parents seem to want permanent employment. They want to never work themselves out of a job. So it is going to take. That's why I said this fourth norm is actually the hardest. Giving them more independence and responsibility because we are too tightly tied to them. Technology allows us to never, ever cut the umbilical cord. A lot of college students are texting with their parents many times a day, every day they're calling them every day. The umbilical cord is never cut. Now for, you know, for 4, 5, 6 year olds, it's different, but even still. So I think what it's going to take is a real reckoning among us Parents that you know what our anxieties are the problem, our anxieties. We don't get to just indulge our anxieties. We have to let go. We have to let our kids grow up. We have to let the schools do their job. And yeah, it's going to be hard. That's going to be so yeah, so that's the challenge ahead of us. You know, we have to get rein in our own phone use. We have to rein in our kids phone use and then we have to step back and let our kids live in the world without us always sheltering them.

[B]

Eric, thank you for that question and we'll see you in two weeks as we, as we Looking forward to that as we grill you on that. So get ready. Okay, next I'm going to Adam Saper who has a question. Adam. Hey.

[D]

Hi, Jonathan, how are you?

[C]

Hi.

[D]

Just following up on what you said. You know, I'm in a particular actually my daughters, we've been able to hold out till 12 years old. Okay. I would would have liked to have held out till 14, but I am. We are going to try to be as diligent as possible in holding out on any social media.

[G]

Okay.

[D]

In terms of phone. So I want you to just dive into a little bit in terms of navigating how bad is it of the phone without the social media. But also I feel that you're. While you're. I agree with all of the things in terms of banning for schools, banning for this, but it also seems like you're missing out that it feels and it's felt like this even with iPads, that Apple could also do a better job. And a lot of their filtering, it doesn't work very well and there's multiple ways for the kids to get around it. And it seems like that feels like we should be calling on better tools and simpler tools.

[C]

Absolutely. In the book, I call on Apple and Microsoft to find a way to designate phones as children's phones. This phone belongs to a child. So that pornhub or other sites can say, okay, you can't come in. Anyone else can. But you know, you know, you can't just come in and lie about your age. So we can definitely get help. Now, once you give your kid a device, you are entering the eternal battle that we're all in, which is the cat and mouse game. They will find ways around, but we can make it harder. That's why I don't spend any time talking about content moderation. I don't, you know, I really focus on Delay, because that's really the only thing that, that works. Everything else is just constant struggle. Now, in that constant struggle, if you are the only family that's doing this, it's going to be much harder on your, on your child. But again, if you can find just, you know, you're probably already texting with them anyway because you had to drop her off for a, you know, sleepover or something. So just, you know, you know, say, hey, I read this book by John Haidt and he suggests that we all, that we all work together. You know, what do you think? Can we, you know, can we talk? Can we have a phone call? Can we meet up? Like, let's talk about what we can do to give our girls more fun together and less, less social media exposure.

[D]

Our goal, we're going to see if

[C]

it's going to work.

[D]

It's an experiment, is to give the phone, but at home it lives in a lockbox and it's only used on times that she's going to go out and be out and about and then come home and it just goes back in the lockbox.

[C]

Yes, that's it. Yes. No, no, that's, that's a good. No, that is a good. That's what I do. So my daughter is 14 and I held out until sixth grade when she was 11, because during COVID the school expected everyone to have a smartphone. So I had a given on that. But we've had the rule that the phone.

[D]

You're making me feel better.

[C]

So. Yeah, so that. Right. So I think that's a reasonable step now. We've let it slip a lot. We have to be much more rigorous about it. But you know, they can do almost everything on the phone. They can do it on their laptop. So if they need to text, they have their laptop. Now then you have to look at that. You have to look at what do they do on the laptop. A laptop is less addictive than a phone. The touch technology, this rapid feedback is much more addictive because the time between behavior and response is instant. There's no gap. So the touchscreen technology is much more addictive than a laptop. So you're doing the right thing. But now you also have to look at the laptop. What is she doing? And especially keep them away from the short form videos. Instagram, I mean, Instagram reels, TikTok. Those are really, really bad. They're not stories. I'm really coming to see. Stories are good and many of you are in Hollywood. Stories are great. Humans live in stories. Our ancestors have told stories for, you know, hundreds of thousands of years. So if you, if you watch a movie with your kid or if your kid is watching, you know, a 30 minute show or a movie, that's good, there's no problem with that. But if they're watching 422nd little clips of people getting punched in the face and stuff like that, like, no, this is not good. There's no benefit, there's no, that's not stories, that's just garbage.

[B]

I'm going to go to Laurie Spivak next. Sorry for questions, only about 10 minutes left. I have to go to the people who are paid members first. So I apologize if I don't get to everybody, but I'll try my best.

[E]

Thanks. Jamie. I wanted to say when you were talking about the scrolling, one thing in your book that really resonated was when you talked about how it was like a slot machine. You can really see that it's like a similar sort of.

[C]

They copied the slot machine.

[E]

Yeah. It's very disconcerting to think about it, but for those of us. So I have a 16 and 18 year old, so we're sort of out of this window. They've had phones since they've been young. But I'm wondering, is it effective at all to share with them how they're being manipulated? Because I was thinking for my daughter, I was gonna make her listen to chapter six of your book. For my son, I was gonna make him listen to chapter seven just to understand like how these companies are manipulating them. So I just wanted to know if for those of us who have older kids and we've already messed up with them, that can be helpful in some way.

[C]

Yeah, I think it is. Someone just told me, I gave a talk and someone raised the example of how, you know, how do we get rid of tobacco? I mean tobacco, you know, a lot of kids used to smoke and when I was in high school, you know, a bunch of kids smoked, how do we get rid of it? And what I learned, what someone told me was that one of the campaigns that really worked, especially with the boys, was to tell them, these companies are manipulating, they're hooking you. Their goal is to addict you. Boys have a stronger sense of reactance. Like if you tell them, you know, you can't do this. Boys are more like say, oh yeah. So I think that strategy could work here. Now again, as a social psychologist who studies intuition, I don't think that reasoning works very well when you're talking about addiction and when you're talking about social pressures. Social Pressures are far, far stronger than our ability to reason. So definitely try it. It might work with some kids. And I'm hopeful that we just. It just becomes part of a message. I think there should be some digital literacy classes. You know, I don't think they make a huge difference, but I think we need a sort of a. As we did with tobacco and as we've done with obesity and junk food, we need a concerted effort to say, this is a hazard, it's a. It's going to be around us for the rest of our. For the rest of your life. You're going to have to deal with this. You're going to have to have self control. But we have to start seeing, you know, seeing social media and these companies as really, you know, bad for us. And I, I don't like to moralize things, but I do think that TikTok and Meta, I do think that they are actually bad companies that are harming children at a scale beyond anything we've ever seen on this planet. And they know they're doing it and they're not doing much to stop it.

[F]

I think.

[B]

Listen, we have 10 minutes left. I really, I think there are really practical things everybody on this Zoom can do. I want to. So I want to just really get. I want to dig deeper into that. As I told Jonathan, since the second I read his book, I started texting Gavin or Newsom. I texted Eric Swalwell, I texted different government officials. I'm talking to the head of Oakwood now. I really think that, Jonathan, what are, what are tangible things? I want people to leave being optimistic, and I want people to be being hopeful. It is going to be a fight. It is going to be a hard fight. It is going to be a fight with our kids, with schools, with government. But what are tangible things that we should do when we leave this Zoom to make a difference?

[C]

Oh, gosh, yes. I mean, look, I'm, you know, when I study social media and its effects on democracy, I'm pretty pessimistic and I'm working on that and I'm writing a book on it, and I don't know what to say about that. But then when we talk about this issue, the teen mental health issue and social media phones, it turns out we can solve this problem pretty easily with no money. It costs nothing to do this, and there's no partisan divide. This is one of the few issues that America really can act on and we're beginning to have. So I'm actually wildly optimistic. And people, the biggest opponent we have is the despair, the resignation, the parents who feel like it's impossible. I've tried, I've struggled, I can't get a handle on it. And as individuals, yeah, as individuals, it's really hard to deal with this. But once you realize that if we all do it together, if even a quarter of us do it, if 25% of parents were to do this, it would spread like wildfire and it becomes easier for everyone. So I'm wildly optimistic. So here are a few things you can do. Well first, like very concrete when you, when you, you know, when you leave this call, I hope you'll. Okay, subscribe to afterbabel.com, actually what I have some, I can probably put links in the. Do I have it? Oh, here, let me see if I can put this in the.

[B]

Anna will put them in the links for you, John. Okay.

[C]

Yeah. So afterbabel.com, my substack and it's free. But if you want to be a paid subscriber that would support me, give me money to pay my staff, visit anxiousgeneration.com that's the main site for all my activities for the movement, the free. The Anxious Generation movement. Sign up, you know, sort of scroll through at the bottom of the page, put your name in. We, we're organizing, we're hiring, we will be, we'll send out, you know, action plans. Support, support this movement on Instagram especially, that's where especially most of the parents are. So I'm Jonathan Height on Instagram and well, even though I don't know how to use Instagram, but my team does and, and that's how we reach a lot of people. So you know, if you have a big account or whatever, any account, forward things or, or whatever the language. I don't even know how Instagram works but, but help us on social media and just support, you know, just post about things that are about phone free schools, about all sorts of things like that. I would urge you to again go to your school right away if your school does not is not truly phone free. Push, push, push. Make them get it done by September because I guarantee you every head of school in America, especially the kinds of schools that we would send our kids to, every head of school is, is being sent a copy of the book, is hearing from parents. So add your voice and things will change really quickly. And many of you are politically connected, so bring it up with politicians, with legislators and if you know people in the tech companies, I mean the tech companies are full of good people. The Tech companies are almost all companies. There are thousands of companies that are making our lives better. They're not evil. There's really just five to 10 companies that are doing most of the harm. And so if you know people at those five or 10 companies, just talk to them and say, what are you doing? Because I'm hopeful that employees within will now put more pressure because most people are parents, and so I'm hopeful that will change. And then finally, if you are philanthropically inclined, I am raising money for the movement. I need to hire people. I am totally overwhelmed. I can't handle all the incoming offers and opportunities and invitations. And so if you're philosophically inclined, go to anxiousgeneration.com, you'll see a donate button if you want to support me financially so that I can hire staff. So, yeah, yeah, those are, that's my list.

[B]

And Jonathan, I, I, John, I couldn't agree more. I mean, I, it's on us to hold people to account for this. I mean, I have friends in social media companies. I need to, to ask them about these things. And it's government officials, it's school, school officials, the same thing. We can't, we can no longer just let people get away with these things without being addressed, talked to and confronted in some way. Obviously in a, in a peaceful manner.

[C]

Yeah, polite, peaceful. Yeah.

[B]

I'm gonna, Kids get an automatic free question here. We have in Joseph, he's josing, he's 19. He gets to automatically ask a question.

[I]

Sorry about that. It's not a question, actually. I just comment. Jonathan, you said something about how, like the, the response to smoking cigarettes, you know, people put out ads, you know, negative campaigns. I could just be speaking for myself here, but I'd just like to confirm that a lot of kids are aware that they're, they're almost, you know, just corrupting their, their brains. I'm aware of this. I know a lot of my friends are aware of this. We're just, we're, we're addicted. We're really addicted. And I'd also like to mention that I think there's a. I, I went to Oakwood High School, secondary school, and I noticed a pretty big change from, I think we got our phones in 10th grade or 9th grade. And I noticed the change in my learning habits. At school. Yeah, at school. I think, I think I've become not stupider per se, but I think my, my study habits have been.

[C]

Yes.

[I]

Increasingly worse. I think, I think everything educationally have been worse. I think I've learned more in K through 6 than I did.

[C]

Wow.

[I]

I don't know, I, you know, I don't know if that's a testament all to, you know, what we're discussing, but I definitely, I definitely think a lot of it is and wow, it's an epidemic everywhere. It's all.

[C]

Well, thank you Joseph. That, that is wonderful testimony in support of what I'm saying and it illustrates the point that Gen Z is not in denial. Gen Z is very aware of what's happening. Surveys show this, conversations with them show this. And I was just talking with a German interviewer yesterday and I said, you know what, what I mean, what's happening in Germany? And she said, well, she just saw a program where they interviewed a bunch of 10 year olds and the 10 year olds were all saying we want a phone, we want TikTok, we want Instagram. And then they interviewed a bunch of 19 year olds which is, I think that's your age. Bunch of 19 year olds. And they were all saying wow, I wish we didn't have this when we were 10 years old. Wow, this really messed us up. So just like what you're saying. So we have an entire generation around the world, around the developed world is missing out on education, missing out on social life, not dating, not flirting, not knowing how to court or fall in love, not developing the social skills that they should have. I think this is the greatest destruction of human capital in human history with the exception of World War I and World War II. And so thank you for your testimony because that's what I hear over and over from Gen Z. I have never heard a Gen Z person say that I was wrong.

[B]

We're going to have to do another talk about and go to the coddling of American Mind because that is just an extraordinary book as well. And we need an hour for that. We got a couple minutes left. There's one person in the comments who talked about kids needing boundaries and, and from the colony American mind. You, you quoted, I think it was. You quoted just a, I think a philosopher or sociologist talking about the importance of boundaries and the importance. It's Durkhein I think. Right. Is that who it was?

[C]

Yes. Of being bounded constrained constraints. Yes. Actually allow you to flourish.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Going to go to Gary Gilbert the question and Gary.

[J]

Hi. Hi Jonathan. First exam. I have a comment. You know that the easy fix for parents that demand being in touch with their child just permit Apple watches or a flip phone and you just go ahead with no smartphones but an Apple watch or a flip phone solves a problem the second question is, why hasn't Congress acted on reeling these companies in? I mean, like you said, they're acting with full immunity, which is absurd. And I just don't understand why Congress, especially because like you mentioned before, is bipartisan. Why haven't they acted?

[C]

So there are several reasons. You know, a big one is money. These are the biggest, most powerful companies in human history, biggest in terms of market cap. They hire more lobbyists than almost any other. You know, there are some amazing stats. I've forgotten them. But they have armies of lobbyists. They buy up a lot of the law firms that the law firms can't work on the other side for the plaintiffs. So they're doing everything they can to preserve the most lucrative enterprises ever created by human beings. That's part of it, but another part of it is that the science really wasn't settled until recently. That is some of the main people studying this kept saying, well, the correlations are tiny. Well, it's just correlation. Well, there's no evidence, but they're looking at a very, very narrow way of operationalizing this. Whereas if you just talk to the parents whose kids killed themselves after being sextorted, were they just mistaking correlation for causation? Were the children going to kill themselves anyway? It's just a coincidence that they were sextorted the day before? So the science wasn't clear. And as with tobacco and global warming, you know, when. And of course the industry funds the research that makes it seem, it's not clear. So this is all happening so fast. Congress created these two bad laws in the 90s. They've done nothing. They've passed zero laws since 1998. Zero, zero. So that has to change. COSA is the one bill that might pass this this year, the Kids Online Safety Act. If you have any influence, if, you know, legislators, say please, say please support cosa. It does a lot of nice things. It doesn't raise the age, but it does a lot of nice things to make things less toxic. So I do think states are acting, state governments are acting. So I think we're going to see a tidal wave of legislation at the state level and internationally in the uk, the EU and Australia.

[B]

All right, I'm going to, we're going to, we're going to wrap up a couple of things just to note again, if you, if anybody's not a member and wants to apply for membership just at the link. The, the next thing is, please support Jonathan's work. His work is critical. He is not running a social media company. So he does not have them. It's not as profitable a business. And so he needs, he needs our support. He needs our help financially and also all across the board. I want to shout out Nick Melvoin, who mentioned that he is working on bringing a resolution to ban phones at lausd. So everybody take a note of that for those people in California. And there's another poll in the chat about future guests. And Anna's also going to add some of our future guests. We have Eric Swalwell and Dan Crenshaw coming up next, which is the first time I've ever had a Republican and Democrat Congress or Senator together. And then Gavin Newsom is going to be on the 18th, so we can all talk to him about banning these phones in California. Jonathan, I want. There's one. I mean, you have so many great elements and moments in this book and all your books, but can you talk about the concept of. And this will be the thing that takes us out. Standing on whales and fishing for minnows.

[C]

Yeah. There's a phrase from Joseph Campbell that I've always loved. It's a Polynesian expression. Standing on a whale, fishing for minnows. I always had that in my mind. And when I've been looking at how schools are responding, because all heads of school, you know, maybe not so much elementary, but middle school, high school and university, mental health is, like, is always a top priority, always one of the top three priorities. And what are they doing? Well, there was an article in the Washington Post about a school that was trying everything. They brought in social, emotional learning. They brought in animal therapy. They brought in all kinds of therapists. They brought in lots of adults to help the kids to cope with their emotions, to better identify their emotions. Now, there's no evidence that any of this really works, first of all. But, but they, they're doing it. It costs a lot of money and it doesn't seem to be working. And my argument in the book is stop doing all those things. Those are minnows. Those, those are. You're trying to do just lots of little things. There's two big things you can do. Go phone free and become playful. So phone free we've already talked about. And every school that goes phone free gets miraculous results within a month because the kids are a little nervous at first, but then they find, like, actually we're talking to each other, like, at lunch. Like, we're talking like, the kids love it, the teachers love it. So all schools should go phone free. That's a whale that, you know, don't do it. If you just do one thing, go phone free. The second is to become playful. If you take away the phones, give them a lot more play. So. Oh yes. So if you could advocate at your school for more recess, longer recess, longer lunchtime. The kids need time to play. They don't need all these other classes. They don't need more math. They would learn more math if they had more recess. So advocate for more play. And please go to letgrow.org, this is an organization started by Lenore Skenazi and me and a couple others to help schools and families to bring more play into kids lives and independence. So letro.org is another organization I hope that you'll support. We can make our look. Our kids should be having fun in school, especially elementary school. They should be playing a lot more. They should have less homework, especially in the early grades. So we've got to realize play is a biological necessity. It's not just entertainment. All mammal children need to play a lot to wire up their brains. They do not need to be watching a screen all the time instead of

[B]

Jonathan. Thank you. And to that extent, I, I know people think it's dangerous to go play outside, but I like this analogy that when I was a kid growing up in New York City, most people I knew were mugged in some way. I was mugged. I don't think my nephew and his friends would know what the term mugging is today. So it's, you know, let's let our kids out, let's let our kids play. Thank you all for being here for people the first time. It's great to have you join John. Keep doing what you're doing. You're changing the world and we're going to try and help you do it. And nice to see all of you. And John, we're going to have you come back for a colony American monument. Too much to talk about.

[C]

Very good. Thanks so much, Jamie. Together we are going to win collective action. We're going to turn this thing around.

[B]

We are going to win. I agree 100%. I feel so optimistic. Thank you.

[C]

All right, bye everybody. Thank you all. Bye bye.

[B]

Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of Lunch with Jamie. As always, be sure to subscribe to my [e-mail] for my thoughts on all things food, pop culture, politics and more. And remember to join these online conversations and ask my guests questions in real time. Sign up to become a paid subscriber. You can listen on Apple podcasts, Spotify or Audible and be sure to leave a review. Thanks and see you next time.