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- [00:02]
A
Baby,
- [00:04]
B
I'm gonna be honest. This week, the world has felt darker than usual. From the shooting at Brown University to the anti Semitic Bondi beach terrorist attack to the murder of Rob and Michelle Reiner and the vile comments that follow up on the president is a tough time for the world and especially to be an American. I can't think of a better person to be having a conversation with at this trying moment than Senator Mark Kelly. We started with the only topic we could America's gun violence epidemic. The the senator discussed how the shooting of his wife, Gabby Giffords, threw him into the world of common sense gun law activism. We discussed why there aren't single issue voters who prioritize gun reform, the advocacy work his wife is doing at Giffords, and why the United States leads the world to preventable gun deaths. We, of course, also had to discuss the thing he recently made headlines for, the seemingly simple act of reminding the military they aren't obligated to follow illegal orders. Since then, the President of the United States has called for his hanging and Pete Hegseth has opened an investigation into him. But Mark Kelly won't be deterred. In fact, he refuses to vouch down hope this conversation inspires you to take action, whether it's donating to gun reform advocacy groups, calling your Congress people, or working to elect politicians who aren't afraid to make a change. We all have the power to make our country better, and Mark Kelly is proof of that fact. Now here's my interview with Senator Mark Kelly. Thank you all for joining today. It's hard to put into words what people are feeling around the world today. I can't remember a weekend with as many tragic events. From Brown to Bondi beach to Los Angeles, gun violence has touched everyone. My heart breaks for the families directly affected by these events. And it's devastating that we live in a world where this is something we are conditioned to live with. Sadly, today's guest knows all too well about gun violence personally. And while originally this conversation was not set up to be the major topic of discussion, I couldn't be more thankful that I'm fortunate enough to have this opportunity to have Senator Kelly here with us today. Senator Kelly has been in the U.S. senate for nearly six years. He served as a captain in the Navy before retiring in 2011, was also an astronaut and worked for NASA for 14 years. Senator Kelly is also the husband of former U.S. representative Gabby Giffords, who nearly lost her life due to gun violence in 2011. They have both since become gun advocates for common sense gun reform Senator Kelly, I really want to thank you for spending some time with us today.
- [02:27]
A
Well, thank you for having me on, Jamie.
- [02:29]
B
So, you know, I obviously people are just trying to cope with and grapple with what's going on right now after this weekend. You know, and I just said to you as we, as we first were talking, it just I have trouble understanding how gun reform is not the major topic of every day in D.C. and I know for you that's even more personal. So can you a just give me some perspective on where you are based on this weekend's thoughts and then talk a little bit about just sort of that journey and that fight for you?
- [03:08]
A
Yeah. Well, thank you. Thank you, Jamie. Well, you know, what we saw at Brown is way too common in the United States. It is something that kids have been living with now for more than a generation. There were kids at that school in Rhode island at Brown University that have been through school shootings in high school and now they're reliving this again in college. And how many of these kids are not going to be able to recover from this psychologically? They'll have ptsd. There's two dead students. There's nine others injured. Some of those young people are going to have disabilities for the rest of their lives because of this. It is an issue that makes our country stand out in the worst of ways. You know, we rank in terms of the level of gun violence with Yemen, not with any European or any Asian country. Even most South American, Central American countries aren't nearly as bad as the United States. It is shocking, it's embarrassing, it's wrong. And we have a political class here, Republicans in the House and the Senate and in governor's mansions and in state legislatures that just don't care enough about children and they care more about the gun industry making their profits and how they funnel that profits into their political careers. That's the reality of the situation now. Since Gabby and I started working on this when we started Giffords after the Sandy Hook elementary school shooting, we made a lot of progress and her organization has helped pass 800 pieces of legislation in 30 something different states. That's making a difference and probably making a big difference. It is depressing when you realize that this could be a lot worse. Gun violence is the number one cause of death for children now in our country. And we have a bunch of people, including my Republican Senate colleagues, don't want to do anything about it now. When there's a mass shooting like what happened in Uvalde, there is often enough incentive on their part to try to do, accomplish something. And it's, you know, federally, it's usually something rather minimal. But we're not giving up. You know, I, I sat next to my wife's bed for six months, six months when she was in the hospital. And she eventually recovered to the point where she could advocate, you know, for, for stronger laws and a safer country. But we're failing young people. There's no two ways about that. They are. And it's not just on gun violence. I mean, their economics suck if you're, you know, somebody under the age of, you know, 40, essentially. But we're not going to give up. And I'm going to keep pushing here in Washington.
- [06:16]
B
You know, I produced a documentary called Us Kids that was about the tragedy of Parkland. And you reference the students that had experienced gun violence more than once now at Brown, which is just, just hard to even comprehend and imagine. But why do you think, you know, we shut the government down over health care? Right. And you know, obviously you've been in this fight, you know, daily in, since 2011 and before, maybe in many ways too. So I'm not saying no one has stood up and made a sort of a protest the way that was done. But we don't talk about shutting the government down over gun reform. I mean, it just wouldn't even, you know, people, they're, they're single issue voters all the time. Right? Gun reform isn't really, to what I hear, a single issue voter concern when really at the end of the day it should be top of mind every day for everybody. And I'm not saying it isn't top of mind for you and other people. And I know there are people who've done great work and hard work on the Democrats more. But why isn't it just something that you get up every day and say, okay, we're not going to move forward until we've made a dent.
- [07:34]
A
Well, I think it's because it's one of these issues that happen on a given day, like what happens in Brown and then people go back to their regular lives and hope and pray that it just doesn't happen again. And maybe this is the last one, but until we make changes, it's never going to be the last one. And there will be, I can guarantee you within the next year or two there will be a school shooting that's going to be worse than what happened at Brown, whether it's in a high school or university. I, I, I bet large sums of money on it. Unfortunately, it is it is the, it's, it's the, it's, it's where we, we live in right now. Hey, I would say, you know, economics and safety are big issues for people. It should be a issue that people vote on. We have worked really hard to make it turn people into a single issue voter on this issue. And I think we've made a bunch of progress, but we got to make more and we got to keep working at it.
- [08:30]
B
Yeah, I mean, I, you know, and I see, I got, so, I got, I was so angry all weekend and so sad. And I, and I said a comment to somebody. I'm just waiting for somebod to point to this tragedy in Australia as a reason why stricter gun laws don't work. And almost within seconds of me saying it, and I'm completely honest about this, Senator Cassidy was on CNN saying as a response to this, brilliant and amazing Zoe Weissman, who's a sophomore at Brown, who gave just some powerful comments this weekend saying, well, look, stricter gun laws don't work in Australia. My Forbes reported today that gun murder rate in Australia, 6,000% lower in Australia than it is today in the U.S.
- [09:17]
A
you know, Bill Cassidy, being a medical doctor and a person of science, should understand math a little bit. And it's not hard to look up the numbers and the gun laws. And I'm not suggesting we have exactly the same gun laws as Australia, but what they did had a huge impact and now they're gonna do more. And I imagine it's gonna drive the death rate from gunshot wounds down even further.
- [09:40]
B
But how come it doesn't make more of an impact with the people fighting against these things that statistically it's proven that these stricter gun laws work and they continue to try and come up with examples where they don't. And how come there isn't more outrage from people? I'm at a loss. I have two children. I'm failing them. You know, I'm not an elected official, but I'm definitely failing them, as is everybody. So how are we allowing it to kind of continue? And I'm sorry to kind of keep hitting the same point over and over again, but it's just, I feel like we need to get. Move forward in some way. And I don't, I don't know.
- [10:21]
A
Well, we don't always elect the smartest people in our country to these jobs in Congress. I mean, that's part of it. They have a, you know, some, I think some of these folks have a hard time understanding data and facts and I mean, we had a White House that, you know, in their previous administration used to talk about alternative facts. So they'll try to find the, the facts to, to, you know, get their, whatever they want their narrative to be. There should be more outrage. And it's there. I mean, we, we live it. Gabby and I do. I mean, she travels the country all the time working on really, really hard. She's on the road 50, 60% of the time raising the money to do this work. She's got a large organization that has helped pass 800 pieces of legislation in 30 something different states. You know, and it's, it is making a difference, but we have to do more. And we, we can't ever give up and we can't ever, you know, think that this is just like the new normal living in America. It does not have to be this way. We don't have to have gun violence at levels of third world countries that don't have functioning governments like Yemen or controlled by a terrorist organization, the Houthis. That's who we compare to. That's not acceptable. And more people need to stand up and they need to hold their elected leaders accountable for this. When you have somebody like Senator Cassidy in Louisiana, Louisiana has, has either the highest death rate from gun violence or the second highest death rate from gun violence. It's, it's right there, it's in the, it's certainly in the top three or four. Until somebody like him is held accountable by citizens in Louisiana, it's, it's hard to make progress. Louisianans or whatever you call them, they need to be held, they need to hold Cassidy and others accountable for this.
- [12:28]
B
So I guess the question is like, what can you do and what are you doing and what are your college doing today? I mean, you know, I mean, is there, is there something. And then in addition, what can, what can I do? You know, I mean, I produced this documentary. There's a, there's a, an amazing one man show I saw called Guac by Manuel Olivier. Oliviera, who is coming back to Los Angeles, is one of the most powerful pieces about content, about gun violence. And that's, that's the area of my focus, of what I'm in.
- [12:59]
A
But yeah, you mean Manny the Manny whose son was at Parkland.
- [13:03]
B
Parkland, exactly.
- [13:04]
A
Yeah. Yeah. That guy is kind of a badass.
- [13:07]
B
Badass, yeah.
- [13:09]
A
He is like techno prisoners. I, he is fantastic. You know, when he invited the, I think it was the president of the nra, not Wayne lapierre, to give a speech, like a commencement speech and he set that whole auditorium up, and there was, like, a thousand empty chairs. And the guy walks on stage and he's like, what is going on? And he says, oh, these are. There would be kids here, but they're all dead because of you. I mean, he. He is, He's. He. He is something else. And I was supposed to see him in Florida over the weekend. I don't know if something happened with his flight or something. He was delayed and didn't. Didn't have the opportunity. But we need more people like him and more people like my wife Gabby, getting involved and really making this an issue. Like, what could you do, Jamie? You know, your podcast is one thing, but, you know, you know, halfway through the week, you know, getting involved with an organization like Gabby's, you know, which is named after her Giffords, is something that can have a positive impact.
- [14:11]
B
It's such a tough issue, but it's something we have to make it bent on. It's just, it's, you know, and people say it all the time. And I. To your point, I mean, you know, you look at Donald Trump, the leader of the GOP and the MAGA movement, and his comments after this horrific, tragic death of Rob Reiner and his wife, you know, there's definitely no leadership coming out of that side of the political spectrum. So what's going to come down to you and your colleagues and making those protests on the House floor, on the Senate floor, or wherever you can, and really making this the issue, I mean, it's just. It can't go on anymore.
- [14:52]
A
I knew four people that had kids at Brown. Four. Right now, I made those calls. Well, actually, five. One of them I made today, and the rest I got through to the folks immediately when this was still like, an active situation.
- [15:10]
B
What are the things that could get passed that potentially have some bipartisan sort of support that you think are attainable? You're a gun owner.
- [15:27]
A
Yeah. Yeah. I. I often think that under the, you know, right circumstances, timing matters on these things. Also, the. The electoral, like the math. Right. Right now we have 47 Democrats, so it's going to be really hard to find 13 Republicans to overcome the filibuster, where you need 60 votes in the Senate to pass something. In the House, it's a simple majority, but in the Senate, it's harder. You need 60%, so generally 40% of the people get to decide what happens, which is kind of an odd thing, a feature of our democracy. So how do you get, you know, 13 Republicans right now? That's hard. But let's just say in, in November, if we win, win back the majority and now we're 51 Democrats 49. Or maybe even better if we have a big wave election. If Trump is as unpopular in November as he is today, you know, maybe we wind up 43 or 53. 47 the other way. Now we only need 7 instead of 13. Can we find 7 Republicans that are willing to pass a universal background check law where you have to get a background check before buying a gun? We got close before mentioned to me background check bill. Unfortunately, we had some Democrats that voted against it. That doesn't exist anymore in the United States Senate. There aren't Democrats that are going to vote against common sense. You know, gun laws, they're gone, which is a positive thing. So we elect some more people and then we could have an opportunity to do a universal background check bill. We could do a version of an assault weapons ban, pass a red flag law that's national like some other states have, which the data shows saves people's lives.
- [17:26]
B
I, I'm glad you're, you're there fighting, but we just, we need more to get done and we need, we need to do more as well. So you, you, you, you've been making a lot of news prior to this weekend and I have. Yeah, yeah, I kind of missed. Yeah, yeah.
- [17:46]
A
Not intentional, by the way.
- [17:48]
B
No, tell me. And I, there's lots been talked about this. But tell me first. The. How, when, when you guys, when. What's your name? The Seditious Six. I forgot. What's your, is that your, that's not
- [18:01]
A
my name for us.
- [18:01]
B
Well, your nickname. No, I know that's not your name.
- [18:04]
A
That's.
- [18:04]
B
Was that, that was Donald Trump's name for you? Well, you know, was that the right video to make at that time?
- [18:12]
A
His, his response to our video proved that it was absolutely the right video for the moment. And also what followed, you know, with, you know, some of these boat strikes in Venezuela. We didn't make this video because we knew anything about a second, you know, a second strike on that first boat. But my sense was we were heading down a path where some, some bad was about to start happening. We have a president who is clearly not up to the job. I mean, this is much worse than it was in the first Donald Trump presidency. I think he is, you know, he's, he's older, he's got people around him that won't tell him when he's full of on things. So he's got a bunch of sycophants around him and who spend every day trying to figure out how do they. They kiss his ass better than the last person. And I, my, my sense is he just doesn't seem to be, you know, cogn cognitively there at the level you need to do the hardest job in the world. He has recently said that, well, we're just going to kill people. And then he appoints a secretary of defense who barely got confirmed. Republicans voted against him because he is in no way even close to being qualified for this job. And he has proven that over the last six months or so. And he runs around the stage like an idiot talking about hunting and killing people and lethality and warrior ethos and how the rules of engagement is, is kind of hamstringing them and is something we need to consider getting rid of. So that really concerned myself and Alyssa Slotkin and four House members. Like, this is like a recipe for kind of a disaster. And you also have Donald Trump who had said previously that, that he wanted to kill the family members of terrorists. He said it in 2016 on a debate stage. Brett Bear told them that would not happen because that would be illegal. The military wouldn't do that. And Donald Trump said, well, the military will not refuse my orders, as if he is a, some sort of autocrat and they have no option. And then he talked about shooting protesters in the leg. So, you know, we've been doing this long enough, myself and Alyssa and those other members, like, we can see what's around the corner. And turns out we were sort of right because what happened on that second boat strike is going to be investigated and there needs to be accountability and it's the kind of thing we were, you know, we were, we were worried about. So, yeah, I feel like it was the right message at the right time.
- [21:19]
B
I, I never served in the military, so it's always hard for me to try and, you know, understand the, the, the mindset of somebody who has. But to me, it seems like from what I understand of the code of the military and the, and the training that you get, Donald Trump would be the last person in the world someone would support who's a member of the armed services, Armed forces. And what am I missing on why there is support for him? And maybe there isn't, but it does.
- [21:49]
A
Why, why there's support from him. For him. From the military?
- [21:52]
B
From. Yeah, from members of the military. I mean, you know, he, you know, his, he sort of, the last thing he has is honor. And, and the, everything that you sort of hear is sort of that you Think of when you think of the military, what, what am I missing?
- [22:04]
A
You think of honor, you think of American values. You think of morality and there's an ethical, like, code of conduct that ain't Donald Trump. But I also think the military is much like our country. You have, you know, you have people that have picked their team, Democrat or Republican. Members of the military do lean, you know, more conservative, lean to the right, tend to support Republican candidates if they support, you know, anybody. I served in the, in the Navy for 25 years. I could recognize that. My understanding right now in the Pentagon is there are the MAGA people and there are the people keeping their mouths shut because of stuff like what happened, you know, with me. I said something the President didn't like and he said I should be hanged. We need, you know, we need folks, you know, citizens, folks across the country to say this isn't acceptable. And we need, we need people, you know, sticking up for the Constitution and, you know, First Amendment rights.
- [23:12]
B
Yeah, it's, it's hard to, it's hard to understand. I mean, I can't understand that kind of general concept. But you, I just would like to think more and more of them are getting to the point where, you know, this is unacceptable and the, the rhetoric and language that comes out of him is unacceptable.
- [23:26]
A
Well, we hear it, we hear it quietly.
- [23:28]
B
We start need, we need people to stop saying those things quietly. You know, it's like the Republic. It's the people who disagree and they talk behind closed door. They say one thing, you know, we just need to get out of that world.
- [23:35]
A
That's right. People are afraid. I mean, he, he's come after, you know, myself and others saying we should be executed, prosecuted. He's, he's gone after Letitia, James and Comey for, you know, ridiculous things and try to throw the full weight of DOJ at them. People don't want that in their lives. You know, and this is, this is kind of out of the, this is out of the playbook.
- [24:05]
B
How concerned are you right now based on his concept of the idea of court martialing you? Or, I mean, again, the just wild statements he's making. I mean, are there certain things you need to be doing right now or are you just sort of going forward and living your life the way you need to?
- [24:21]
A
Well, I'm not going to let him intimidate me in any way. I mean, if he, if he thought he was going to get me to back down by saying I should be hanged or executed or prosecuted and he picked the wrong guy, because that ain't happening. Doesn't matter what they do to me all the way up to sending me, to sending me to prison, you know, putting together some kind of kangaroo court and, you know, trying to railroad me. I am. I am not gonna back down. He is not going to intimidate me. I'm going to keep doing my job. So I am not, like, worried about this. Obviously, I have to hire, you know, attorneys, and we will, you know, we will do our best to fight any kind of, you know, prosecution or anything for that matter that he throws my way. I don't care what it is. I mean, he, you know, even if he sends, like, me a letter, we'll do whatever we can to push back on that. Because if I don't, first of all, it's not in my nature to back down to this guy especially, but to anybody, like any kind of bully. I've been in tougher fights than this, serving my country. I nearly got shot down multiple times. I've had a missile blow up next to my airplane. I flew into space four times on millions of pounds of rocket fuel on one of the most dangerous things to ever fly ever. My wife Gabby, been shot in the head, exercising her First Amendment rights as a member of Congress. So Gabby and I are. We're not backing down. We're not going anywhere. You know, he can, you know, he can prosecute me to the fullest extent that he can figure this out through dod, DOD or doj, or he can go off. I mean, that's really what this comes down to, because if. If there was any backing off, it basically sends a message to the rest of the country that they do not have the same rights to speak out against this government and this president than they did last year. That. That has fundamentally changed, and I can't allow that to happen.
- [26:36]
B
If I was Donald Trump, you would not be the senator I would pick to mess with. So I. We're. We're lucky. We're. We're lucky we have you for the, for that reason alone. The. You know, I know there's only so much you can sort of share with us when it comes to Venezuela. Obviously, you serve on the Armed Services Committee, but are there some certain things that we should know in regards to, you know, regards to the boat strike? But. And then in general with what we're seeing, I mean, you hear such. You hear everything from war to ground troops to, you know, just shooting down more planes. I mean, it's very hard for the average citizen to really kind of understand what's what's even going on?
- [27:16]
A
What do you mean by shooting down more planes?
- [27:19]
B
I'm saying his airspace. We can't. He's going to shoot down. He's closed the airspace.
- [27:22]
A
Oh, he's closed the airspace.
- [27:24]
B
I mean, just like, you know, it's sort of.
- [27:25]
A
Yeah, yeah. Well, so when this whole thing started, right, this is initially he was talking about drugs that are killing people, which is fentanyl. Well, fentanyl doesn't come through the Caribbean on small boats. It comes through our southern border from Mexico. Chemicals, a lot of them come from. They either come directly from China to Mexico or to the United States and then south through the US Mexico border and they come back up as, you know, little tiny blue fentanyl pills. You could fit about like 60,000 of them in something this big. And they get hidden in vehicles mostly. So this isn't about stopping fentanyl. And by the way, those routes that these boats are on in the Caribbean are routes that take cocaine to Europe and Western Africa, not to the United States. And in the case of that first boat strike, that boat was going to Suriname or going halfway to Suriname, dropping it off on another boat, and then on the Suriname, and then those drugs were probably going to Europe. So this isn't about drugs coming into the United States. It is about drug dealers to some extent. I mean, he's killing drug dealers without due process, which is something we've never done before in the history of our country, as far as I can tell, at least not in a long time, that we just decide to execute people. So what is it about? I don't know. I mean, is it about oil in Venezuela, maybe? Could be. Is it about he just feels this need to try to topple Maduro. Maduro's a bad guy. I'd love to see Maduro toppled and replaced by a, you know, democratic, democratically elected, you know, person in Venezuela and try to get Venezuela on track. So is it about regime change? I mean, could be. I think, you know, right now he's probably the only person that knows for sure. And it also probably depends on what they ask him. Right?
- [29:33]
B
Yeah.
- [29:34]
A
Regime change generally doesn't work well for us, you know, as policy. Bay of Pigs, South Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan usually doesn't go well. So I. I just don't see how this whole operation makes us safer. It just, in my view, it just doesn't. And it's a. It's a big. And I think it's a big waste of time and resources. It's also really not who we Are we shouldn't just be out there just killing people.
- [30:10]
B
You're obviously a border state. Immigration's a major issue. It's safe to say the Biden term as presidency did not fare well on immigration and illegal immigration. What Trump's doing obviously is completely the wrong way to go about it as well. I guess the question is first in relationship to ICE and what's happening there when it comes to your state and what are you doing? How are you focused on that? How are you kind of stopping the, this sort of mission that Donald Trump is on and what is the right way to sort of, to handle this immigration crisis that we've sort of been dealing with?
- [31:04]
A
Well, we haven't been successful stopping ICE from terrorizing communities in Arizona or other states that they've put on their target list. My congresswoman, Adelita Grijalva, who I'm going to see, you know, later, later today and actually in a couple hours, you know, she went to, you know, a nice, I don't even know what you call it. You know, ICE was rounding up a bunch of people in the community and she winds up getting pepper sprayed by an ICE agent. She's a sitting member in Congress. She identified herself as a member of Congress. They're going after kids in schools, US Citizens, military veterans. If you saw that hearing last week, military veterans who are not US Citizens have been deported, kicked out of the country after serving the country. People with like Purple Hearts, you know, this is their Stephen Miller maximalist approach to undocumented people or anybody that they feel they can go after. They started talking about denaturalization, taking away people's citizenships, you know, getting rid of birthright citizenship. You know, here he's, he's, he's got that case moving, you know, to the Supreme Court. These policies are not in the best interest of our country in any, any way. I mean, I've got one woman, I had a couple that I visited in an ICE facility, one we were able to help get out. She's now been reunited with her family. Her name was Maria. She was the mom of a U.S. marine. And somebody at the front gate of the Marine Corps Air Station in Yuma called Border Patrol on her because she seemed like she might be undocumented. And she wound up sitting in an ICE prison for an extended period of time. Her son's a Marine, her daughter in law's a Marine. I've got another woman named Kelly Yu, who's a business owner who has 70 employees. She's from China, fled China 20 years ago. Her mom's a US citizen, her kid's a US citizen, sister US citizen, husband, a US citizen. No threat to anybody. She's got a deportation order. So we are, you know, from my office, we're doing everything we can to, you know, fight back and, you know, especially for the folks that I represent and try to help them in this really, really challenging time. Donald Trump said he was going to round up and deport criminals and gang members and drug dealers. He should be focused on that. He's mostly focused on terrorizing people of color.
- [34:04]
B
I'm going to go to a question from Matt Lippman. Matt runs Brady's culture chain program called Shogun Safety. So he's got a question. Matt, you there?
- [34:18]
A
Yeah, thanks.
- [34:19]
C
First Jamie, thank you very much. Senator, good to see you. I do work for Brady. Giffords is also an amazing organization. I see Michaela put info about it in the chat. People should contribute to Giffords. It's great. Senator, I'm going to not ask you about the gun issue because Jamie asked you all the good questions already. But just, you know, we talk about the House and gerrymandering and getting all these seats in the Senate. You can't do that. Right. So South Carolina has as many seats, for example, as California. We each have two. How are we going to win back the Senate? Like, I, you know, we could all see us winning the House next year, but how are we going to win back the Senate and keep the Senate in Democratic hands?
- [35:03]
A
Well, I mean, keeping this thing has gone back and forth a lot, right. Lately. You know, keeping, I think is, is, is. Is a little trickier because with all the problems we have, you know, we've seen, we've seen a lot of change here and turnover. You know, how do we win the Senate? I think we can win the Senate here in November. If you would have asked me this question in January, I would have told you it's impossible. Ain't gonna happen. But now if we win in Maine, Ohio, North Carolina, which we have clear paths to win those three seats, and we hold on, in Georgia, John ossoff wins. We're 50. 50. So how do we win one more? Well, I actually think we can win more than one more and wind up better than 5149. Now, we're probably going to have an opportunity in Alaska, in Iowa, Mississippi, Louisiana, maybe even South Carolina. Some people think that's, you know, maybe overly optimistic. And on this kind of stuff, I generally am not that optimistic. I am on a lot of other things, but I Think if the President continues to do the kind of job he has been doing since January 20th, I think the American people are going to be fed up with this guy. They already are. And we can see that in the elections we've had recently. They're going to be fed up and they're going to want change and that's going to be reflected in these Senate and House races. So I think we can wind up 5149 or 5248. Then the trick is, how do you hold on to it? You know, 2028, we have a little bit better map. You know, I, you know, I'm on the ballot again for my Senate seat in 2028, Arizona, but I've won there twice already and I'm confident I can win again. And other folks that are on the ballot, we can win.
- [36:58]
B
I love that optimism. You know, we, the Democratic Party obviously has gone through some real soul searching. Where do you, where do you think it means to be a Democrat today?
- [37:13]
A
I think it's different things for, you know, different people. I can only speak to, you know, you know, for me personally, like why, you know why I'm a Democrat and not a Republican. I used to be an independent, you know, for a good period of time. Most of the time I was in Arizona until I decided to run for office. But I want to see a country where everybody gets a fair shot. And that's not the case anymore In Arizona with our voucher system for education, public schools are getting decimated. I'm the product of good public schools all the way through graduate school, by the way, at the Naval Postgraduate School. This country has given me remarkable opportunities. Those opportunities aren't there for young people anymore. About a couple months ago, I took my 30 year old daughter to the house that she lived in when she was one in Southern Maryland. By the time she was a year and a half, we moved to Houston, Texas, because I was selected to be an astronaut. And I took her down to this house where the naval base is at Patuxet River Naval Air Station. And we looked around. I knocked on the door and the guy who I sold the house to was still that he was still there over 20, nearly 30 years ago. And we went inside, he was happy to see us, he knew who I was. We went in the backyard. We were there for about 20 minutes. When we got in the car, my 30 year old daughter, who's an architect, who's married to a PhD neuroscientist, said, Dad, I don't, I Don't, I don't get this. Can you explain this to me? You were 30 years old in the Navy and you were able to buy that house in that neighborhood, four bedroom house with a big yard, in a safe place. Why can't I do that? And I think what it means to be a Democrat is to be committed to fix this problem in 1960. You know what the average age of the first new home buyer was? 23 in 1960. I see Michaela or somebody there, you know, who, who realizes it ain't 23 anymore, it's now 40. These are, you know, we've got to fix this, we've got to fix education, we've got to fix health care, we got to fix housing and just the economics for young people. Young people are getting screwed over and the American dream is out of reach for most people. I think what it means to be a Democrat is being committed to working for hard working people. And people might disagree with me, but I think what it means to Rep. To be a Republican is, is, is to be sticking up for the wealthiest Americans.
- [40:16]
B
What keeps you hopeful and what keeps you wanting to come back for another term and what, as you look in the future, what gets you, what gets you up every day to kind of continue this, this fight with the rhetoric getting worse, with the polarization getting worse. I know for me to an extent that's why I get more engaged on a daily basis is because of that. And I think you're someone who looks for a, looks, you know, looks not walking away from a fight. But you know, we've, we, we've had years of democratic, you know, control and things haven't gotten done either. And I love what you just said, but we, we haven't seen, always seen the action even coming out when we've had democratic control. So as you look forward, what keeps you hopeful?
- [41:06]
A
Well, I got a four year old granddaughter right there that's like a one grandkid and you know, I'll, I'll stay in this, in this fight to try to make this country a better place that has given me so much. I've had so many opportunities, you know, serving my country in the Navy and at NASA. Very few people get to, you know, leave the planet. I got to do it four times, visit the space station, you know, get the perspective that very few people have. I came from, I'm the son of two police officers, you know, in other countries that doesn't happen to the son of two cops. Just doesn't. We can't let this country turn into those countries. We got to continue to provide opportunities to kids like my grandkid and others and to all, all Americans where they can get a good education, they can get a good job, they can afford to have a decent life. So, you know, the optimism for me is, is just that I know that if, if I continue to work hard at this and don't give up, other people won't give up either. And I think we can beat these guys at the ballot box. I mean, I think Donald Trump is a really bad person, you know, fundamentally is what he said about Rob Reiner, you know, today. I mean, who says that kind of stuff? I mean, did he wake up this morning and forget he was the President of the United States or calling for my execution because he didn't like what I said? We can't let these people stay in charge anymore. And the people that won't stick up to them in, in the House and the Senate, they need to be replaced. So I'm going to keep, you know, fighting for, you know, how many, how many more years I can do this. Unless NASA will take me back and let me fly a spaceship again, this is the next best thing for me.
- [43:07]
B
The fact you've gone to space is something I think everybody dreams of in some ways. I actually went to space camp when I was in fifth grade, but I think when they really saw my size, they decided I was not going to be invited back. Well, listen, I really appreciate it. You have a lot on your plate. I know that's the reason I'm fighting and I'm excited to wake up, is because my children and your grandchildren. What's the one thing you want to see from people, Republicans, Democrats today when they listen to this? Obviously, people can contribute to Gabby's organization, in your organization, they can contribute to other organizations. What else should people need to do to make an impact on a daily basis? What do you think is the thing to do?
- [44:02]
A
I think they need to get involved with some effort, some organization, some candidate, some policy issue that they care about. Do something. Stop the doom scrolling on TikTok and Twitter and Instagram and get involved with some effort to make our country a better place. That's what they can do.
- [44:27]
B
I love that your colleague Cory Booker said something I always quote, which is don't let your inability to do everything undermine your determination to do something. And I think that's so well said and I really appreciate you joining us. I'm going to have to have you back on. I have another part of the series called Meet the candidates where we get into a lot more of your personal life and some of your favorites. I'm not going to hit you up with those questions now, so we'll come back during election time. And thank you so much and love to your family and your beautiful granddaughter. And thank you so much for your time and look forward to seeing you in person soon.
- [45:06]
A
Well, good to see you, Jamie. And I assume Alan's your dad. I didn't make the connection until now. I'm just guessing maybe.
- [45:13]
B
Yes, he is. He is.
- [45:15]
A
All right, thanks. So great to see everybody. Thank you. Okay.
- [45:19]
B
All right, thanks. Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of Lunch with Jamie. As always, be sure to subscribe to my newsletter@jamieslist.com for my thoughts on all things food, pop culture, politics and more. And remember to join these online conversations and ask my guests question questions in real time. Sign up to get a paid subscriber. You can listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or Audible and be sure to leave a review. Thanks and see you next time.