A (3:48)

Thank you very much.

B (3:49)

I know that you're, you're infinitely curious with light and what light can do to shape a space and mold a space. How do you define what elite and luxury is?

A (4:02)

I think me personally or as me as a designer or anyone I ever talk to luxury about, everyone's got a different interpretation and luxury to an individual is completely diverse. So someone might see one aspect of luxury, luxury to them, the other person. Yeah, something completely different. My personal feel luxury is all about being immersed and being isolated and feel like you're in your own space and environment from a hotel perspective. Others fill other aspects of the. The guest room, turn it into luxury, that is service or could be various aspects. From a light design perspective, we have to try and understand specifically what the luxury target is for that particular asset. Each asset is different. We've done assets in the middle of the desert, floating above the sea on the coast. Each have got a different target market for luxury. And yeah, so we have to be embedded within the client's aspirations as well as the interior designers, architects and landscape designers as well.

B (5:11)

When you think about being embedded and being part of that process and that almost intimate space and feeling, do you feel like lighting leads or follows or where does it fall in that category of importance in the space?

A (5:28)

Well, going to use the word immersive again and, and again, everyone thinks immersive is all about something to do with show or an exhibition or something where you have to go into a space and it's. Everything's colored, they're using all the senses, sound, feel, etc. Etc. But you can be immersed in, in a lobby, you can be immersed in a spa, you can be immersed in a gym. So it's not specifically all about all of the sensors being completely accelerated. Sometimes it's one over the other and you know, every different space is very unique in that respect. Again, our job is to try and understand what is the point of sale, I. E. What is the target market for that hospitality asset or that particular space. So you Know, it's not only that when you go into that space, we need to embrace the point of sale, but also ensure people feel they're in a comfortable environment relative to that specific trend or target market.

B (6:28)

And when you think about getting them immersed in that and heightening the right sense or in the order of the sense, there's an intent behind it and it starts from vision. How do you feel like developing a vision and getting the trust from them that you're going to be able to execute that? What's, you know, what's the process behind that like for you?

A (6:51)

There's a key word and that's the journey. I mean, we've got to walk the journey of the guest or the, or the client in some aspects every single time. So we have to go step by step through that journey and make sure at points, connections, transitions, points of speeding up, people slowing down, people turning people's heads. All of that aspect of that journey through that space is critical. And it's up to us to accentuate, accentuate particular elements, access routes, entrance ways, points of sale, whatever the purpose may be, whilst creating an environment that it's a subconscious recognition. It's not something that you feel like you're being forced to look at, or it's an overlit space where you feel a bit intimidated because you're on show. It needs to be something that everyone feels comfortable with, but subconsciously you are embracing the use and the task and the function of the space. So everything starts with the journey. And any presentation we do, or any report, concept report we do, we will start at the point of arrival and then walk through the space through our renderings, images and so on, to then embrace that journey and then explain to the client. And I think we tend to get trust in going through that motion because we're also telling them that we understand what they're trying to achieve. It's almost like a return brief. And then that entrustment comes. It's like, okay, you got it. This is what we really want to give our clients and this, that and the other. And a lot of it's to do with that understanding as opposed to what light fit and we pick where we put it, etc, etc. So I feel a lot of people make a lot of mistakes trying to design a picture place or trying to design a space that looks good and they can market and, and using their favorite product or whatever. That's completely irrelevant. We wouldn't even go into that element of design until we've already got acceptance of our appreciation of the journey.

B (8:52)

It's not a photo, it's not a picture, it's not a board, it's not a myriad of photos. It's this immersive experience that may be defined as luxury. Is there any moment in time when you're explaining a journey to a client or a design team where the light bulb goes off?

A (9:15)

Lots of times. I mean, we can't do our job without everyone else and the extended design team. We can, but we can only achieve 30% success. The only time we've received what we feel is 100% success is when the actual journey is derived with all parties. And that's whether it's landscape, interior architecture and so on. Everyone has to be on board. And there's so many times where we've approached a project and we're. We've gone through that journey and we've asked the interior designer to change the finishes. You know, we're trying to create a separation particular restaurant we've done at Atlantis, the Royal. It's a very dark restaurant. And we had a bit of a discussion, I'm going to call it a discussion, a discussion about thresholds to try and start that journey in the threshold to then go into the restaurant. But it was a hard sell. But in the end we convinced the guys to come round because just experience of going from X light to then into a medium space to then go immersed into the restaurant, it was so key that we had to be isolated from both spaces. And then the restaurant was announced. So we had a lot of to and fro in through the design process on that. And then, you know, typical standards is another challenge. There's a lot of sustainable environmental standards which we naturally try to adhere to and better in most cases. But in some instances the code may be associated to liberally across the board. And when you're in the middle of the desert, sometimes it doesn't apply. You know, there's. Even when it says you need to meet this light level, where we don't want to meet that light level. We're in the middle of the desert, we've got nothing to compete against. If we would have put it to that light level, it's actually going to be harsh. It's going to be horrible to the eye. So we done a desert result and we were challenging the client and the standards to say, yeah, we're going to say the project, it's southern dunes in the Red Sea. We actually challenged the client and said, we don't want bollards, we don't want a buildup of light. We want reflectors because we're going into a desert resort. It's an immersive experience. You're supposed to feel like you're in the middle of the desert. Don't put bollards, put reflectors and put them on stakes so you actually, you can see it's safe. You get the arrival experience. You gradually build up to the reveal of the entrance. But yeah, we lost that bell but that particular battle. But it's. But all joking aside, we have to have those discussions and those discussions are critical to again total success. And we were only fighting for the architects brief in that instance where from the very early stages we'd done site visits and references and so on. And one of the sites we went to previous to this project was a 20 minute drive on a compound desert road with no lights, with no reflectors, with nothing. And, and I remember the journey of me going on that road and it was, you literally can't go faster even if you wanted to. And you were just picking up where the next June was to then keep meandering around to the hotel. As much as first instance I was, this is a bit, you know, strange, am I going the right way etc. Etc. But at the same time when you got there there was a, and there was a sense of arrival. There was almost an element of relief to a certain extent. But it was, wow, I've just Dr. The desert. Even though it was perfectly safe and it was, it was perfectly size road and everything else. But. And then when I sat there and doing this research and reviewing this space, I sat there and I could see car lights from about 15 minutes away arriving at the hotel. You can never sneak up to the hotel. You could see the, the car lights like lasers in the sky because it was so again immersed in the desert. So you don't, you know, it was, it was really interesting to, to have that experience. And then we drew that into our project and we even requested the client to. Because it's autonomous vehicles taking you to this hotel to dip, make sure you've got dipped headlights. That's nothing to do with our scope. But we said this can only work if you make sure you dip the headlights. Otherwise all the experience we're trying to achieve on this resort, you're going to lose with these car lasers and people being announced when they arrive and everything else. It was quite an interesting. And you know, we were taking pictures along the way and you can imagine with an iPhone contrast when you're taking a picture of a pitch black Desert with just your car lights. Trying to explain the story is it doesn't tell a lot because even the camera doesn't pick up what you can and can't see and everything else. But it was, it was a really interesting exercise. But there's a prime example of, you know, the standard says we've got to meet X amount of light, even though for that particular condition you don't. You could even be more sustainable, more efficient, etc. Etc.

B (14:08)

When you think about this, the journey, the practice of an entire project, that's one opportunity. How do you like to approach probing to really make sure you understand what the journey needs to be so that you can react and respond to it?

A (14:25)

I think different projects are different probes, should we say. But there's certain aspects where hospitality, for instance, is the, the geographical location will have a story, there's the interior designer you're working with as a style, the brand has a style itself, etc. But when you get to more unique projects, shall we say more completely diverse to the norm, that's when you can really start probing on new stuff and putting round pegs through square holes and trying to develop the next best thing.

B (15:01)

When you look at these opportunities in these instances of creating this immersive journey of building these details, how much work does it take once the client's bought in to actually start to realize it?

A (15:17)

Along is a piece of string really, because this depends on the, on what we're trying to do. Sometimes it's an element within a bigger element, other times it's actually a fundamental thing. So if, if, if it's a large scale adaptation we're trying to reinvent, then, then obviously the periods are a lot longer because we can roll. Atlantis the Royal is an example, the facade on that, you know, because of the, the scale of it, what we're trying to achieve with it with indirect light and so on. We had to do various technical tests and then we built a full scale mock up in the desert. And so this period must have been 12 months from start to finish from, you know, the aspirations, the development, the, the technical calculations to isolate or not isolate, but select or narrow down a product and the technical ability of the product, then go to site, then mess around exactly where we can achieve what we want to achieve, which was quite hard because we had so many visible angles that you, to conceal a light source. But once we've done all those tests and everything else and nailed it, and to be fair in that circumstance, the client was super supportive, the architect was super supportive and the contractor was super supportive so the architect changed their details to accommodate our lights. The contractor built the details in line as a change to accommodate our lights and then everyone had the result they wanted. So in that case with everyone buying into the exercise. Yeah, that took a 12 month process to, to get from A to Z. But other aspects it could be. We've built models desktop before to imitate a huge lobby wall where we've tried to imitate falling leaves and we've done it with an integrated light the base and we wanted to use tracery in an angle back so it would, and we would move the light so you could only see certain apertures appear. And by doing that it almost. Well it did, it did look like falling leaves. So we were. How can we show the client this? How can we convince the interior designer to do this? So we actually made it in the office using a foam board cutting out either ruler that went over a light source like this just to imitate tracery lights. Because everything was at mini scale so we had to, it was almost like a very crude. But yeah, we demonstrated it through cutting out and building a model and then showing them in that respect. So and they, they agreed they, they done it and it's. We had a few instances like that where we've had to make something out of foil, mood board, whatever we got around the office and then, and then start playing and, and showing. But yeah, I don't know if they're, whether they're impressed with our models or the actual idea in the end but I think, I think some of them we can laugh about because some of them were quite crude.

B (18:07)

But yeah, before we keep going, I want to spotlight someone who shares the same obsession with the design detail that this podcast is built on at ledflex. Linear Light is designed to do more than illuminate. It's engineered to shape how spaces are experienced. Rooted in British manufacturing, LED Flex works alongside lighting designers, interior designers and architects worldwide, supporting projects where detail, precision and execution matter. They're not just a manufacturer, they're a technical partner providing bespoke solutions, rapid prototyping, commissioning and long term support from early concept through final handover. If light is integral to your architecture, choose a partner who stays with the project and learn more@leadflexgroup.com I also want to take a moment to share another company that I respect and enjoy learning from. I know and you know, every designer knows the success of a space depends on actually what shows up on site. And, and that's where diode LED comes in. Lighting Performance isn't an add on, it's the foundation of every successful linear lighting project. Designers need solutions that carry ideas smoothly from specification through installation. And Diode LED is built to support that reality. With industry leading inventory, reliable delivery and responsive support, Diode LED keeps pace with real project timelines, not theoretical ones. Real solutions for real projects, no matter the scale. Learn more about what's happening in Reno, Nevada@diodeld.com there's also one more company that I want to introduce you to. Because they consistently show up where it matters. Kelvix doesn't just move fast, they move with purpose, helping the design world turn ambitious ideas into seamless, buildable realities. The Kelvix team works at the pace of your project, delivering tailored solutions backed by the people who know how quality, timing and precision elevate the final outcome. In every spec and every collaboration, Kelvix proves lighting is more than illumination. Lighting protects design intent, sharpens the details that matter, and brings spaces to life with clarity and ease. See what's coming next. From breakthrough products to standout projects@kelvix.com or on their social channels. Pretty neat, huh? All right, let's get back to the conversation. As you start to bring up these instances and share them, it's, it's inevitable and obvious to me. It's what it takes to help someone understand that journey. You're vigilant and committed to realizing something special. Where do you feel like, where does that start and how do you carry that through this entire process?

A (20:59)

I think we, we accidentally put ourselves in this situation. We could always do the easy thing. We could design around existing product and then work how that's going to happen. But we deliberately don't design around product and we deliberately don't even talk about product until the later stages. So we talk about what we want to see and what we want to achieve. So we do that. Then when we come to the actual technical, we're like, yeah, there isn't a product that can do this, is there? So then, then we've got to then start reaching out and start developing how to adapt an existing product or create our own. And I mean, it's in unique situations. We're going to do it for genuine ambience and things like that. But, but when we've got a particular circumstance and a particular effect we want to achieve, then yeah, we, we would do that. And then, right, and we'll tell the client, we say, look, this is a massive question mark, but we've got to develop it. But I Think we develop it right, and it works. It's going to be amazing. And then they usually, in fact, I don't think, I don't remember a time when they, when they said, I do. And then we convinced them to carry on and then it went ahead. That was another model we had to build. But yeah, most of the time they buy into the idea straight away because, because we're, we're trying, right? And it's, we're working hard for their, their vision and we're not just trying to cut the corner and finish the job and get our move on. Right. So, yeah, most clients follow us in that journey, but other clients are like, that looks way too hard and expensive. I think we need to just go for a. Can you not just pick something off the shelf? And I'm like, well, it's your scale and everything else. And then when we got a model made out of like a fat fire fryer wire. Yes, it was fat for our wire. And built this model on the desk. Built this model on the desk. And we went to that effort and showed them what it would look like. They went, okay, we like it. Okay, yeah, we're going to invest in that. We literally had to work out how to get this mesh. Right. And that was the closest option we could find. But yeah, so it's quite interesting. We, we're forever on. I don't know if I can use the names, but on some of the online sites, trying to find objects to cut up and create these models.

B (23:05)

You mentioned earlier that you put yourself in this place accidentally. Isn't designed full of accidents?

A (23:12)

100. Yeah. And it's full of discoveries. I think discoveries is a good word. I think accidents is probably, yeah, probably the wrong terminology to use. It's not a mistake, we promise. It's, it's, it's. We, we, we, we put ourselves in situations where sometimes we have to work a lot harder to get. Not get out of them, but to realize them. And that's not a bad thing. That's, that's good because we're, we're, we're being creative and innovative and yeah. Trying to, trying to design something that's slightly different or unique. So it's important.

B (23:45)

I mean, every creative mind is addicted to like, never stopping, always iterating, trying to come up with that next best thing not to do it because you can or you should, but there's just like, there's a flame inside of you, right. And it stays ignited because, you know, you're, you're building and you're Influencing and you're imagining, but it's becoming real and there's someone who's willing to support that.

A (24:16)

And do you know what? It's, it's funny because it's Horses for courses Termini we use in the uk, but literally, if we've gone through that journey or received that brief with the client, we get as excited about working with a tight budget as we do with a big budget, because we have to be double creative and double innovative with a cheap budget. And that means, no, we can't go and start designing things special and everything else. What we have to be is creative with what we can do within that palette. And that is a whole different form of creativity and a whole different form of innovation. And then when you can use very basic product to achieve really cool things, that's just as rewarding as building a model and then. Yeah, and, and, and spending the client's money. But it's, but literally, yeah, there's, there's, there's two ways to look at that. And, and for me, we, it's quite funny actually. We get, we got very excited about doing the back of house and the back of house area when you're staffing there and everything else on the hotel. Because we're like, how many times do we go through, you know, all the efforts on the front of the house and then one door opens and you can get a sneaky peek of what' there. And it's like, why isn't that done better? And it's. And it doesn't take a lot for it to be done better. And it's not because of look and feel, it's because of the functionality, because of the staff in that hotel and so on. So we had a great client that decided to ask us if we could do the back of house and we went, are you sure? Because that's a hell of a lot of job. And you know, we normally just run the house and they, and they said no, because our staff is as important as our customers. So we wanted, there's all these areas we want to be designed, suitable. We're not saying it has to be designed, you know, super high end, this, that and the other, but we want it designed. And I was like, wow, that's brilliant, that's amazing. So, of course. And yes, we had a budget to meet, yes, we had to do it sensibly. But yeah, offices were designed as real offices, not just as. Let's chuck the last thing we've got on site in that area just to illuminate it. And the cafeteria was, was designed, it was designed like an all day dining and it was, it was great. The medical center was designed like a medical center and, and all of those aspects. Yes, using simple product and everything else. But we got as excited about doing the back of house because we wanted to prove a point a little bit. So this is what it can look like, you know, and everything else without spending money. So yeah, no, it was, that was an interesting process as well.

B (26:49)

You can rinse and repeat. You can certainly come back and get fresh. You talked about Atlantis rail in a 12 month cycle to get everybody bought in. That's a detail.

A (27:01)

That one detail.

B (27:02)

Yeah, that's one detail on a project that's massive. Billions and billions of dollars being spent on it. What does it take to stay focused on all of the details that have to go into that?

A (27:20)

It takes more than one person. You know, that's, that's the first obvious answer it takes now. It takes. We've got again, we've got different. Having a team of people is great because we, we. When I say a team, we've got significant team and teams within that team. So once we dedicate a team to portions of that, that job, then they're working to a level and then there's a icast over the other package if you like to then make sure we are where we are. We're obviously driven by different associated designers, so different interior designers, different architects and they've all got different visions, stylizations and so on. So how to stay focused. You know, the nature of that project is, is that thankfully everything didn't happen exactly at the same time. There was, there was things that were phased which, which, which helped a lot. But, and, and any job really it's faced, you know, the typical floors and then the front of the house. But yeah, the, the evolution. I think doing the chef story, we moved people. The people doing the guest rooms didn't do the residents, they, you know, they moved on to something from the house and, and the people doing the residence or the typical floors would move on to something else on the, on the hotel as well. So it did keep it fresh and focused. And I think Atlanta Soro is a very unique project in that respect and probably a little bit of a bad example on how to do it normally because there much diversity there. There's not, it's not, you know, there's nothing that repeats basically, especially in the front of the house. So every, every design was its own design and every time we worked with an interior designer it was, you know, complementing their interior design. So the Dorchester we done here as well, the Lana exactly the same. There was, I think we worked with seven different consultants in different areas of that hotel. So we had to adapt or even align the thought process with each interior designer, architect, landscape, et cetera, et cetera. And towards the end, the client as well. The client had a particular aspiration that didn't always drive, quite aligned with how it was supposed to be. And then there's a few things last minute adapted, which we had to be flexible enough to accommodate that too.

B (29:32)

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A (30:20)

Yeah. So I think, I think we're kept fresh generally just on the, the process without us having to, to, to, to change in any way.

B (30:31)

When you look at all of this, there's these moments everybody gets involved, everybody knows. Every nuance, every detail you're trying to immerse people in has to be coordinated, right? It can almost break the whole system getting it perfect because it has to be. Does it have to be? It has to be some level of elite, right?

A (31:02)

Do you want me to answer that now? The aspiration obviously is, is for it to be perfect. The, the world we live in, the speed we build, especially in this region, you've got to be flexible. You've got to be flexible in certain aspects. I think my favorite job for that is a DNA in Jumeirah Beach Hotel. And that was I think 12 to 13 years ago. And we had a, we had a job to do in three months and we all sat around the table and the client told us, you, you've all been selected because you know each other and you've worked with each other before. This has to open on the day it's supposed to be opened. You're going to find problems. You just got to make it work. And long, long and short of it was we. I remember being on site with a contractor, an interior designer, project manager, the client all working out a shelf detail because literally everything we got given as a base drawing, we opened a wall or a ceiling. It was completely different behind. Right. So we had to reinvent the wheel in situ and everyone worked together to do it. And it was open the day it was supposed to open. And that only happened because of that flexibility. Did our original design intent get achieved? No, it was an adaptation of it. Was it exactly what we wanted? No, it wasn't. But was it? Did we do something else to, to make it plausible and to get it involved? Yes, we did. And we done it. That we're all happy and, and we got through it and we supported the contractor in getting through it. Not with. And we never want to fight with a contractor. We want to open our arms and cuddle them and everything else and, and try and support them and as a team, get it over the line. It's the only way forward. If we're permanently there rejecting bits and bobs and not helping them, nothing gets built. So, yeah, you've got to be realistic and you've got to be. I mean, if we've designed right for the right style of project and the right type of project and the right speed of project, then hopefully nothing's too problematic, that you should have many issues. But that's also got to be taken into consideration from that journey, and that's part of that client brief as well, timelines. So if they've asked you to do a fast track job, we need to do this very quick. We don't start reinventing the wheel. It's just not. The client's not going to appreciate it, the project's not going to appreciate it. And if the project fails, we all fail.

B (33:24)

When you think about the responsibility to manufacture this journey for the occupant,

A (33:31)

does

B (33:31)

that ever weigh on you? I mean, you have this incredible opportunity to literally influence how someone feels or the space they walk into. There's two sides to every story there.

A (33:46)

Me personally, no, I know some of our designers, you know, feel the pressure more than others on that. I think the journey's designed, or use the word journey again, but the processes are designed or the design phases are designed to take that pressure off. It's. It's not a surprise. We go through the motions of preparing renders, we go through the motions of, you know, presenting reports at various stages and so on. So it should be no surprise what the end product is based on the evolution of that, that process, especially in this region. It's. I think I actually would like the pressure And I would prefer the pressure that, you know, that entrustment in design to a certain extent was, was, was to that level where they can go, right, I need you to do that. I'm coming back on holiday in about six months time or six years time when I want to see that or want to see something. But I trust you. I think that, ironically, would be more pressured one, but much more exciting and much more efficient to be fair, if that was the case. But of course, in the world there's too many, too many various investors or pieces to the pie for that to ever be that requirement. But yeah, no, I, I, I don't think, I don't think it's a big, Again, I don't feel that, that big tension or pressure because of the design phases that are involved.

B (35:11)

The journey is there, the building is open, people are experiencing it. Wow. Wow is something that comes out. What does it take for you to get back to the moment that everybody else is experiencing ever after having gone through all of it?

A (35:30)

Takes a lot of visits. It's really funny because, you know, you, you know where the problems were and you, your eyes are still drawn to some of the things. How was that ended up, how did it work? And so on. You know, maybe there should have been something extra over there that, for whatever reason, because of a hidden thing or whatever, it may have not been put in and, you know, a couple of things. So I think it does take. You did not visit the site for a long period of time post doing the final commissioning, then going back and coming back in a social form, not going back, obviously, for any other reason, not going there deliberately to see it, going back there, relaxed family, friends, whatever, and then experiencing it. And then, and then you can start to feel it rather than see it. And that's the, and that was our target in the first instance. But it's very difficult and we can get, we've got, okay, we've got very nice friends and family that, you know, they know you've done the job and they're like, oh, isn't it wonderful? But it doesn't mean a thing until you actually sort of go through that motion and shut off from the aspect that you were working on it and walk in there and go, this feels nice. You know, just, that's all you have to do is say, this feels nice. It's not. That looks nice, that bit's over there nice. But, yeah, I, I get it. You know, it's, it's, it's working. Then that's, yeah, I think it's a matter of time. I think it's a matter of time and age as well. So it needs to be lived in. There's nothing worse than trying to vet a space when it hasn't been lifting, because again, like I said earlier, unless it's actually functioning, unless it's, you know, it works as a space and there's people in it, that's when you know it's working. And then to feel, to sit there and look around at people's faces and to see the bar staff doing their stuff or the chefs doing their thing, and then you can see it all happening in situ, that's a totally different experience than being in there in an empty space, you know, testing the lights, getting, trying to get the ambience right and everything else. It's. It's completely different. So it's interesting. And then I think the best judgment is looking at people's faces and expressions. If they look like they're enjoying themselves, everything else and the staff do, then, yeah, you walk out there quite happy and say, yeah, I think we've done our job. That's the. That's the process.

B (37:41)

Doing your job is always a good thing. Creating an experience, a set of emotions, a journey, it's a luxury. It's a cool opportunity.

A (37:53)

We can also be a pain. I've been in many projects going, this isn't the scene I set knocking on the. Knocking on the. The manager's door said, excuse me, you've got it on the day scene. And it's like, you know, nine o'. Clock. It should be a lot dimmer, really. Do you know how to work this panel? Yes. There you go. Done. Oh, thank you. And then I'm sitting down and my wife's looking very, very, very frustrated. I'll just disappear for 35 minutes to talk to his management to get the ambient levels right.

B (38:24)

But, yeah, I feel like we could. I feel like we could do a whole podcast on outtakes of everything that we just talked about, of. Of every single thing that goes wrong that goes right. I really appreciate you sitting down and sharing, you know, your mindset and what it takes for you guys to build that journey. Thank you so much.

A (38:42)

Thank you. Thanks for having us.

B (38:44)

Yeah, it's good to see you. I'll have to go tour a couple of these projects and get our hands or our sights or one of those senses on the feeling and the emotion of that journey.

A (38:58)

Let me just pre ring them to make sure the right setting. No joke.

B (39:02)

Thanks, Paul. I appreciate it.

A (39:03)

Thank you very much, Jessica.