Mad Money w/ Jim Cramer 12/15/25

Summary

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Mad Money w/ Jim Cramer – December 16, 2025

Podcast: Mad Money w/ Jim Cramer
Host: Jim Cramer (CNBC)
Featured Guests: Max Levchin (CEO, Affirm), Sanjeev Lamba (CEO, Linde)
Theme: Navigating stock market turbulence—why using tech trumps making tech, insights from Affirm and Linde, and Cramer’s rapid-fire Lightning Round.

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Episode Overview

Jim Cramer guides listeners through the confusing terrain of Wall Street, focusing on current market headwinds in tech, the value of companies using technology versus making it, and features two in-depth interviews—first with Max Levchin, CEO of Affirm (Buy Now Pay Later leader), followed by Sanjeev Lamba, CEO of Linde (industrial gases). Cramer also provides his classic “Lightning Round” rapid stock picks, and closes with sharp commentary on the reality behind nuclear and AI-stock hype.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Why Cramer’s Favorite Tech Stock is... Procter & Gamble

• Context: Rather than traditional tech manufacturers, Cramer’s bullish on business-to-business users of technology.
• Reasoning:
  • Procter & Gamble (P&G) is called a “house of innovation” due to its massive R&D efforts ($2B+/year) and heavy use of AI and digital twin technology.
  • Stock is down 13% for the year, uniquely cheap, and has “derisked” after recent management guidance of a likely earnings miss.
  • New CEO onboard; strong dividend yield of 2.9%.
  • P&G’s tech use (e.g., AI for supply chain, cost-saving new factory design, data-driven inventory cuts) is what Cramer sees as the true asset in a tumultuous market.
• Quote:

  "My favorite tech stocks right now are the business to business users of technology. I think these companies will increasingly be given a chance to buy amazing tech that will help them cut costs and bring new products to market much faster than ever." – Jim Cramer [03:04]

2. Market Conditions and the Big Tech “Spending Wars”

• Overview: Tech giants (Amazon, Meta, Microsoft, Alphabet, etc.) are locked in massive spending battles to maintain their edge, particularly in AI.
• Key Points:
  • “Mag 7” tech stocks and semiconductors have had unsustainable rallies; now retracing.
  • AWS (Amazon Web Services) is crucial for Amazon’s profits, but Cramer warns about unsustainable capital expenditures industry-wide.
  • Meta’s “spending like mad,” risking $100B next year for data centers/power, driven by AI arms race.
  • Microsoft’s entrenched position, but demands constant and expensive innovation to compete in cloud.
  • Google’s expenditure (e.g., $20B/year to Apple for search default) is “money well spent,” but only because it’s winning.
  • Core concern: “Big tech stocks can’t advance unless they rein in their spending. But I just don’t know how they can.” – Jim Cramer [08:06]
• Bottom Line:

  “The difference between the Big Tech and Procter & Gamble? Most of the tech companies are simply spending to keep up… Procter spends to dominate.” – Jim Cramer [10:31]

3. Lightning Round: Stock Q&A and Sector Snapshots

Cramer fields quick stock queries from listeners:

• Verizon (VZ): Not a bond substitute—don’t buy common stocks just for yield. "Never buy a common stock as a bond." [10:54]
• Snowflake (SNOW): Decline tied to the AI/data center “basket” selloff, not company-specific red flags.
• Sencora, BP, Perpetua: Sencora—prefers Cardinal Health’s visionary leadership. On BP—“sell it before you hang up.” Perpetua Resources—recommends Agnico instead.
• Cramer’s tone is candid, often folksy, and loaded with stock-specific advice.

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Interview: Max Levchin (CEO, Affirm)

[12:48–24:07]

a. Affirm's Business Model & Credit Underwriting

• Levchin describes Affirm’s approach as:
  Helping consumers avoid late/revolving fees by sophisticated underwriting. “If you get really good at underwriting, you don't have to charge late fees. You don't have to throw in some hidden charges here and there.” – Max Levchin [14:02]
• Cramer’s Reflection:
  • Reminisces on his own “credit card trap” experience—Levchin notes the system is designed to confuse and trap borrowers.
• Levchin on Usury and Regulation:
  • Advocates for more transparency and capping junk fees.
  • Suggests moving industry towards “simple interest, fixed-term transactions” would help consumers escape perpetual debt:

    “Maybe my biggest wish… is the industry would just go towards simple interest, fixed terms transactions. The rate almost doesn't matter if you know when you're done paying off.” – Max Levchin [16:43]

b. How Affirm Makes Lending Decisions

• Underwriting Process:
  • Pulls real-time credit, analyzes obligations/cash flow. If unsure, may request consumer’s cash-flow info for deeper review.
  • “Because we don't charge late fees, we have total alignment with our consumers. If they don't pay us back, we just lose money.” – Max Levchin [18:15]

c. Growth Areas and New Partnerships

• Revolve & UK Expansion:
  • New partnership with Revolve (big e-commerce brand), especially significant for Affirm’s expansion into the UK—“We have a lot of conviction around UK. We think it’s going to be a very big deal.” – Max Levchin [21:29]
  • Shopify partnership in the UK also noted as highly promising, based on success in US/Canada.

d. Consumer Trends and Holiday Stats

• Affirm’s Insights:
  • Black Friday/Cyber Monday saw strong growth—travel-related spending up 47% YoY, Gen Z travel up 75% YoY.
  • 70%+ growth in zero-percent loans; six-month payment plans nearly tripled, indicating budget-stretching consumer behavior.
  • "Our credit numbers are quite strong, so they're paying their bills back, but they're looking to stretch their dollar. They are price conscious, they're looking for deals." – Max Levchin [23:21]

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Market Segments: Tech Data Center Stocks & AI Hype

[26:02–35:37]

• Oracle & Broadcom:
  • Oracle: Disappointing earnings, project delays, cash-flow worries, questionable OpenAI client solvency.
  • Broadcom: Market “overreacted” to margin guidance; Cramer remains confident in CEO and sees buying opportunity.
• On AI and Data Centers:
  • Cramer is cautious on “bubble” talk:

    “If there was a bubble, it burst at the end of October when pretty much all these stocks stopped making money and most of them started going down during the end of the year of magical investing. Remember that bubble brewing? It popped.” – Jim Cramer [10:31]

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Interview: Sanjeev Lamba (CEO, Linde)

[35:54–41:46]

a. Linde Stock Pullback—What Went Wrong?

• Assures listeners the business model and “algorithm” for 10%+ EPS growth remain intact, despite recent stock downturn.
• Breakdown of Lind's 'Earnings Algorithm':
  • 1. Disciplined capital allocation: Project backlog, acquisitions, buybacks = 4–6% EPS growth.
  • 2. Pricing & productivity (including AI-powered savings): Another 4–6% EPS growth, not relying on macro headwinds.
  • 3. Macro tailwinds: Can push growth to double digits.
  • Example: In 2021, volumes grew 7-8%, EPS up 30%.
• Quote:

  “Nothing’s broken…Linde has got an algorithm and a business model that is robust.” – Sanjeev Lamba [36:09]

b. End Markets and “Resiliency”

• 35%+ of end markets (electronics, healthcare, food & beverage) are insulated from macro swings—these are “resilient and expected to grow.”
• More cyclical markets (energy, metals, mining, manufacturing) show “green shoots” in aerospace, construction, LNG, data centers, EV/battery production.
• Company is well-positioned for industrial growth when cyclical markets rebound.

c. Insider Buying and Long-Term Commitment

• Lamba recently purchased $1M of Linde stock in open market, reiterating confidence and long-term focus:

  “I'm going to hold this. I do not sell my Linde stock. I believe in its long-term future and a compounding benefit that Linde provides to its investors.” – Sanjeev Lamba [40:22]

d. Linde’s Role in Commercial Space & Aerospace

• Linde supplies industrial gases and rare gases to fuel 3/4 of US rocket launches and most satellite launches.
• "Every time you hear of a satellite going up, you got a bit of our gas going there to just put it into its orbit." – Sanjeev Lamba [41:29]

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Cramer on Nuclear: Don’t Bank on Hype

[44:06–47:55]

• Warns hyperscalers about relying on nuclear for cheap, near-term power—projects cost too much, take too long.
• Highlights “year of magical investing” is over; recommends profit-taking in nuclear stocks like Fermi, Oklo, and NewScale Power.
• Praises established players like GE Vernova—actually building nuclear, versus those trading only on promise.

Notable Quote:

“If the CEO of a hyperscaler wants to go all in on nuclear power…think again. Nuclear plants take ages to build…the upfront cost and overruns enormous. The truth is…the need cheap accessible energy. And that means natural gas.” – Jim Cramer [44:06]

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Notable Quotes

• “You want those who use the technology, not those who make it.”
  – Jim Cramer [02:54]
• “Transparency…tapping out late fees…making sure people are informed exactly about how they're borrowing money…that would be great.”
  – Max Levchin [16:43]
• “If there was a bubble, it burst at the end of October…Remember that bubble brewing? It popped.”
  – Jim Cramer [10:31]

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• P&G as a “tech stock,” tech market analysis: [02:30–10:45]
• Lightning Round (stock Q&A): [10:45–12:48] and [41:50–44:00]
• Max Levchin/Affirm Interview: [12:48–24:07]
• Oracle/Broadcom/Data center market analysis: [26:02–35:37]
• Linde CEO Interview: [35:54–41:46]
• Nuclear stock warning: [44:06–47:55]

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Summary Takeaway

• Cramer champions “tech users” over “tech makers,” spotlighting P&G as a tech play.
• Tech giants face spending headwinds; better bargains may lie elsewhere.
• Affirm’s CEO unpacks financial system reform and confident UK expansion.
• Linde’s CEO delivers industrial optimism, backed by deep market diversification and aerospace momentum.
• Cramer advises skepticism for nuclear and AI hype stocks—look for fundamentals and solid balance sheets.

For actionable, candid, and entertaining investment analysis, this Mad Money episode offers a rich perspective on where to find opportunity amid volatility—always with Cramer’s signature flair and wisdom.

Transcript

[Jim Cramer]

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[Max Levchin]

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[Jim Cramer]

Touchdown and catch.

[Max Levchin]

History in the making.

[Jim Cramer]

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My friends, I'm just trying to make you a little money. My job, not just entertain, but to teach you. So call me. 174.3 CPC. Tweet me, Jim Cramer. If you ask me what tech stock I like right now, right here, I tell you that my favorite tech stock is Procter and Gamble. A house of innovation spends more than $2 billion a year in research development to make the best personal product products imaginable. From Pampers that can handle a pounding to Tide Evo detergent with six levels of clean. To the Gillette Labs heated razor for the best shaving imaginable. This company is loaded with the kind of tech I'm willing to pay for. And get this. It stocks on sales down more than 13% for the year. And management already told you they're going to miss the quarter. So it's what we call de risk in this wacky market. You want those who use the technology, not those who make it. You can see that on a day where The Dow dipped 41 points. S&P declined 0.16%. But the tech laden Nasdaq dropped another 0.59%. In this market, you want the stock of Procter and Gamble because it's cheaper than I can ever recall with a new CEO coming in. A monster user, not maker, but user of tech, which is what's working now in this stock market. See, Procter Gamble used AI to Fix. Its supply chain uses digital twin technology. Design its new factory saving millions of dollars versus old construction. It uses AI to figure to cut down on supplies that it doesn't really need. So no, I'm not being facetious. My favorite tech stocks right now are the business to business users of technology. I think these companies will increasingly be given a chance to buy amazing tech that will help them cut costs and bring new products to market much faster than ever. And that we never even knew we needed heated razors. It's just that we're so fixated on the producers of tech. We like the prurient interest to talk about the big guns in it that we forget it's the users of tech that are getting the bargain, not the makers of tech. And their stocks remain very expensive. It's hard in this market to find a bargain like Pocket that sells for just over 20 times earnings with 2.9% yield. Not bad when the president wants rates to fall to 1%. And you can compound. It's certainly hard to find that kind of valuation among the traditional tech players. Right now. The techs have lots of wood to chop before they settle into better, more viable levels. Proctor, though it's already so cheap right now. The actual techs, the companies we call the Mag seven, the semis, they've had gigantic runs and are pulling back because their future prospects are so darn murky. And they've had such a giant move and it's proven to be indigestible. Just consider a couple that we own for the chops. I said we like these, okay? We like these. I'm just giving a straight dope here because I don't want to trade. I want to start with Amazon. Big position. Worse. Here's a company that can send you anything overnight or increasingly during the day at a low price, has a thriving ad business, as the Amazon Web Services business represents less than 20% of the company's revenues, about 60% of its total profits. AWS is now the core business and it spends billions upon billions on semiconductors, data centers, energy. I don't want any of that. I just want a package delivered to me. And I'm happy to use Walmart if it's got a ton of technology itself instead of Amazon if it's cheaper. Now Amazon stock is up about 1.5% for the year. That's not that good. The amount of money they need to spend to keep up with their competitors in the race for AI supremacy is insane. But what are they going to do? Let open air come into the retail and web services business take away their clients. Let Wal Mart use their stores to beat Amazon its own game. Amazon strategy is not spend to win and spend to defend. I like to win. Met is interesting. It's up almost 11% for the year. Not much, but better than Amazon Stock sells from 22 times next year's earnings. That's kind of cheap, kind of ridiculously cheap if you like the manager as much as I do. But it's also spending like mad. Perhaps as much as $100 billion next year for capital expense. And I'm not even thinking about these huge pay packages the company's using. No salary cap in tech. Hey guys, go fix that. We get like a CBA thing for that capital spend. Met is getting power plants and data centers, both of which could be frankly out of date by the time they're done. Again, though, they don't have a choice. If matter takes its foot off the pedal, then OpenAI might start coming in after them in the social media space. Or all these big tech companies live in fear of that. They believe that whoever wins, I could potentially win everything else too. And if you let OpenAI in with this chimerical balance sheet that you've been binged, that's what happened. You'll be binged. And you know what happens if you've been binged? That's Microsoft as being the other guy. Google as Google. Well, it's going to be like, Carrie, we're all going to laugh at you. I know the stock of Metta, like many of the tech court hasn't done anything for months while stocks in the transports financials, man, they're just flying. The only thing that would get meta stock moving is to come out right now and say, listen, we're not going to. We're not going to pay all this. We're not going to pay all this for power. We're not going to do all these data centers. And I have no idea how they can do that without losing their edge. How about Microsoft? When's this one going to bottom? The stock's only up about 13% for the year now, but it remains a fixture at the office, jamming teams down our throats and offering us copilot when we don't even need a regular pilot, let alone all the junk they punish us with. You know what? I've been buying things on their thing just so they won't come up. But they still come up. Those of us stuck with a PC that's based on Microsoft instead of the pristine Apple, which has Been the case for me for decades. Know that the real workhorse here is business to business. Microsoft's an unassailable position, but it requires massive spending to keep Azure, the cloud infrastructure business competitive versus Google and Amazon. These are three of the richest companies in the world all going after the same piece of the pie. So why not jam the captive audience? We can't do anything about it. Truth. And it's not just Microsoft. Almost every single tech company I follow has a monstrous set of rivals spending tens of billions of dollars to dominate the particular industry. Now in one case, that spending can be worth it. Google spend enough to keep the commerce out of the search category. It's been allowed to write a check to Apple and make it the default search that cost him $20 billion per year. And it's the money well spent. Now the contract has been blessed by a federal judge who must have lost his mind. I now expect Google will also pay Apple to make Gemini their default AI chatbot, which, oh, that judge will like it even more. At that point even open I open AI playing with their other people's money may not be able to compete. In other words, these big tech stocks can advance unless they can rein in their spending. But I just don't know how they can. Not as long as OpenAI's out there where the CEO wants to win in every vertical. As a privately held company that has plenty of investors who are eager to throw money at them because I think they want to be cool. Can you imagine if someone came into the business with all the businesses that Procter and Gamble competes with with twice the R and D budget? Believe me, as much as you may like P and G products, that R and D laden competitor would have a couple of things that you'd switch to destroy Proctor's profit margins. Understand I'm not trying to say that tech stocks can't be owned here. We own a bunch of them for the Chabel trust we always have along with Nvidia and Broadcom. I really like them. I'm just a lot less enthusiastic than I used to be because there's competition all over the place and they're spending like crazy and the stocks have still had big moves. I've never made big money betting on a company that's involved in a scrum where competitor has got a ton of money. Right now Alphabet is the only one that seems to be winning. I don't, I don't know. I mean we need more winners but it's just Alphabet. The amazing thing is when I look at Artificial intelligence plays the traditional ones, not the Sandus and the Microns which are going up like crazy, but that one too. All I can say is that there's no bubble brewing. If there was a bubble, it burst at the end of October when pretty much all these stocks stopped making money and most of them started going down during the end of the year of magical investing. Remember that bubble brewing? It popped. Or a numbskulls bottom line. The difference between the big Tech and Procter and Gamble. Most of the tech companies are simply spending to keep up with the Joneses here. Proctor spends the dominate. Which is why I think it's worth buying right here, right now alongside the Chapel Trust where dividend gives you a floor and there's no Capex ceiling in sight. Let's go to Nick and Florida please. Nick. Hey Jim. Verizon stock, thank you for asking. No problem. Rising stock is often viewed as low volatility income play. With the current market conditions and interest rates dropping, do you think it's a good dividend yield? Never buy a common stock as a bond. You buy common stocks for growth and if they happen to give you income that's great. But common stocks are not bonds and they'll end up disappointing you. Verizon is down 5% and I think in the last six months and I think that that decline may just be getting strong story. Look, it's hard to identify winners in tech right now with all the spending going on. I mean come on guys. But a stock like Pox and Gamble, expense to dominate that can be bought right here, right now. Mad Money tonight. Oh, another one. I like a firm announced this new partnership with Revolve today. I'm getting a read on the deal and the move in the uk. Get ready UK and then that's that final pay later stuff. Then the long knives are out for Oracle. As I just mentioned at first, lackluster earnings report and I am sorting through the negativity to tell you where I stand on the name. And the industrial gas company Lindy has been heading higher since its investor day last week and I'm sitting down with the CEO to find out why. So stay with Kramer. Streaming is changing the way we watch live sports and your Internet connection can be the difference between catching the game, winning touchdown as it happens or hearing about it from your neighbor's cheers. That's why Comcast is building the network of the future using cutting edge AI and edge computing technology. We're bringing fans closer to the action in stunning high definition with ultra low latency. It's not just fast, it's game changing. Learn more at comcastcorporation.com Sports Courage is.

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[Jim Cramer]

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[Jim Cramer]

A little over a month ago we got a really impressive quarter from Affirm Holdings. The Buy Now, Pay Later Powerhouse skys posted a 12 cent earnings beat off an 11 cent basis with much higher than expected revenue, and the stock shot up more than 11% the next day, reaching a high of $79 and change a couple of days later. Since then though, Affirm has gradually drifted lower because of concerns about the state of the consumer to the point where it's now back to $65 and change. Trading like that great quarter never happened. I think it's crazy because the Fed just cut interest rates again last week and even before that we got a ton of very positive quarters from all sorts of retailers suggesting the consumers do fine. But don't take it from me. Let's check in with Max Levchin. The founder and CEO of a firm hold is one of my favorite guests to Get a better sense of how things are going. Mr. Levchin, welcome back to Bit Money.

[Max Levchin]

Thank you for the kind words, Jim.

[Jim Cramer]

All right, so, Max, I got to tell you, I own this stock, my chapel trust, called Capital One. It's killing it, and then it just bought a network. Discover. Killing it. But I remember when I look at a card company like Capital One, I always say, you know what? There are people who don't pay, and because of them, I'm paying a huge amount. Now, how about we just cut out all the people who don't pay, and then I can. I don't have to pay much at all. Correct?

[Max Levchin]

You're summarizing our business model pretty well right there. If you get really good at underwriting, you don't have to try charge late fees. You don't have to throw in some hidden charges here and there. You most certainly don't have to hide your business model in fine print. So, yep, that. That is correct.

[Jim Cramer]

At the same time, the more it's used, the better I am at it versus just using the same model I've been using since 1980. Correct?

[Max Levchin]

That is right. We. We seem to have uncovered something's always been true. Just the industry drifted away from it over the years.

[Jim Cramer]

Okay, so you and I both had very similar experiences. I was under. I had seven credit cards. Finally, I got maxed out. Bunk of popular. And I was paying. I was paying more than I was eating, and I didn't know what to do, but that was because I felt that was my fault. Is it the consumer's fault that they're paying that much?

[Max Levchin]

You know, the system is designed to take advantage of those who don't want to do exponential math in their head, don't have the time for it, maybe just don't have the. The understanding. So not really your fault for getting entangled into it, but it's basically impossible to get out. And you're totally right. The stories are just about the same. Came to us as a teenager, had no idea how credit cards work, promptly got myself overextended, and then took a decade to climb out of the cycle of debt. And the reason I started a firm is to demonstrate that there's a better system. And it's now been used by 20, 30, 40 million Americans over the last bunch of years, and none of them have ever paid us a penny of late fees or revolving interest. And that is proof that you can build a better mousetrap.

[Jim Cramer]

Let's talk about usury. If I were king of the forest, I would say we should have no usery. That usury is bad doesn't go well with our country. It's not the type of thing that the founding fathers were thinking of. Let's ban usury. Could it be banned?

[Max Levchin]

You know, I think it depends a little bit on how you define user. But what I would get very quickly behind is let's ban junk fees, let's ban, let's regulate. You know, ban is a little strong, but let's regulate late fees. Some folks require lead fees. With business model, we do not. But if you're going to start regulating things a little bit more tightly around borrowing, first things first. Don't confuse people, don't show them zero percent that aren't zero. Don't tell them stories that aren't true. Definitely don't promise them rewards that they're never going to be able to claim. So transparency, by the way, we have a lot of laws in the books that tell us, hey, you got to be truthful, you got to be honest when you lend money. So just keeping those in mind would be a good start. But we also do not have a national cap on rates. We do have a law called Military Lending act that says, hey, there is a cap. It just applies to a subset of people. And so extending that nationally wouldn't be a bad idea. There's a lot of great ideas out there, but all these good people, just keeping it transparent, simple, tapping out late fees, making sure people are informed exactly about how they're borrowing money and when they're out of debt, that would be great. Maybe my biggest wish, incidentally, is the industry would just go towards simple interest, fixed terms transactions. The rate almost doesn't matter if you know when you're done paying off. If you have a schedule in front of you, you're borrowing today, you're done in six months, done in 12 months, whatever it is. That is a great outcome. Almost doesn't matter what your rate is. There's not enough time to accrue that much interest. If you borrow once or pay once and pay forever, which is what most credit cards are modeled to do, then the rate really does matter and you find yourself in debt you will never get out of.

[Jim Cramer]

Right. So we had one of our enterprising researchers go on and sign up yesterday, and within a few minutes, he found out that he could spend $2,000. Now, how did you do that? How did you find that out from an address?

[Max Levchin]

Well, there's a little bit more to the data that we pick up than the address. So we look at both publicly available data. And so by publicly available, in this case, I mean your researcher's credit report. So we pulled that in in real time, did not affect his credit rating, didn't change his credit score, want to be clear about that, and computed a proprietary score that we designed here and have perfected, I would argue, for the last 15 years. We looked at all the other obligations this person has. We made sure that we have a pretty good idea of what this person's cash flow looks like. And I don't know if that happened to this person, but in many circumstances, if we don't have a perfect picture from just that data, we might go as far as to ask them to provide their cash flow information and would do what's called cash flow underwriting. We really do understand exactly what's happening in their personal bank account. And that gets us to a number that we believe this person has the capacity to carry while adding to the rest of their mortgage, rent, car, whatever other payments they're obliged to do. Because we don't charge late fees, we have total alignment with our consumers. If they don't pay us back, we just lose money. There's no magic in the business model. And that transparency aligns us fully with that person. So this $2,000 represents our belief of the world. This person can borrow, perhaps they can borrow more, perhaps they can, you know, do even better than that. But this is the number where we believe they're very, very safe.

[Jim Cramer]

Now, when I look at how your stock's done with all the other credit card companies, it's pretty much the same, other than the ones that charge really incredible rates. I mean, incredible for the company, not incredible for you. And what it reminds me is, is that the level of underwriting that you just described is far more thorough. If those rely on the scores you used to term in a great interview with Bloomberg, that the scores can be gamed. How do you gain the scores? I don't know how.

[Max Levchin]

You know, there's all sorts of companies out there, and I don't want to.

[Jim Cramer]

I know you don't want to encourage.

[Max Levchin]

I don't want to encourage it either. That's a good, good catch there. You know, people create these loans that aren't real loans. They take out cards they don't actually plan to use. There's all sorts of tricks you can do to just sort of game the system. And there's no substitute for building your own model. If you're going to be serious, if you weren't going to be pro consumer, you have to do the hard thing and build a full historical record and then underwrite against that. And that's what we've done. The games are short term. Inevitably, by the way, the industry and the regulators hate these games and they're always trying to find ways to just, you know, put it back down.

[Jim Cramer]

All right, so how about this new Revolve partnership? Is it a template for others and what, what so excites you about it?

[Max Levchin]

It's just, I mean, this is today's news. Thank you for, for reading it. So we've been pushing pretty hard.

[Jim Cramer]

Do that to me. I'm trying to be good.

[Max Levchin]

We, you know, we've been working on our entry into the uk, which is really important to us. We've done exceedingly well in the us. We built a great business in Canada. Sort of the undisputed champion of North America for a little while. It's time to go over the pond and bring our brand of buy now, pay later to the rest of the world. UK sort of the staging ground. We committed to uk, the country, we've invested quite a lot of money and effort and built a real team there. And so a couple of announcements happened. Revolve is a great brand and we extended the business we have with them both in Canada. But UK is really important.

[Jim Cramer]

Okay, so it is such a well known, could be a big market for you. All right now I.

[Max Levchin]

We have a lot of conviction around uk. We think it's going to be a very big deal. We just took Shopify, which is a great partner of ours.

[Jim Cramer]

I know that was a great deal. Yeah, yeah.

[Max Levchin]

So it's now available to any Shopify merchant in the uk. It's going to be amazing. We did so well with them in the US and in Canada. UK is just a natural extension. Very, very excited about that now because.

[Jim Cramer]

I'm not worried about underwriting standards. Give me volume, stand how much volume is done so far in the holiday season? Pretty good.

[Max Levchin]

I think you have to tune in for my next report because that's in the current quarter. I have some fun stats from the holiday season if you want them. So every year I'm always trying to figure out what's going to be big, what's going to be small. And so last holiday season that was bemoaning the, you know, we've traveled out after Covid. Everybody wanted to travel, everyone to go everywhere and we're sort of, you know, not that good. Not true. This holiday season, Black Friday, Cyber Monday, we saw 47% year over year growth in just travel. And the kids are all right, so Gen Z is traveling. Growth year over year is 75 plus percent year over year. So it is very clearly the case that we're not done traveling. There's plenty of destinations to go. We saw a big rebound in sporting goods, which for a while was kind of a sad story. Last year we weren't replacing any, any sporting goods, but that's not true. This, this go around sporting goods outdoors. We had, we had some good numbers there anyway, you know, maybe if you want to sort of a relief. On the other side of that great story, we saw a huge growth in zero percent loans, which is where the retailer basically pays your interest rate. The best deal, by the way, is if you're borrowing money, paying over time, paying no interest whatsoever and with a firm, there's no asterisk. You're not getting caught out with some sort of a, oh wait, by the way, it might not be zero. It is always zero when we promise it is zero. With a massive growth of zero percent for the last few quarters in Black Friday Cyber Monday, we saw more than average 70 plus percent growth year over year. And in the six month plan, which tells you that people are looking to stretch their holiday dollars into next year, this is a really good bellwether that grew almost triple. And so those are really good indicators that consumers are shopping, they're buying. Our credit numbers are quite strong, so they're paying their bills back, but they're looking to stretch their dollar. They are price conscious, they're looking for deals.

[Jim Cramer]

I think that makes a ton of sense for the consumer. And for what you're doing with your company, I want to thank Max Levgen, founder, CEO and revolutionary of a firm. Thank you Max. Back in.

[Skye Perryman]

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[Sanjeev Lamba]

Before the trophy and bragging rights are rightfully yours.

[Max Levchin]

Before your sleeper turns In a season no one saw coming before stats and projections turn into points on the board.

[Jim Cramer]

And your lineup falls perfectly into place, you flip the lid on a can.

[Max Levchin]

Of on nicotine pouches and as you make your first pick, you know this is the season where fantasy's going to surpass reality. It's on Products for tobacco consumers 21 years of age or older.

[Jim Cramer]

Warning.

[Sanjeev Lamba]

This product contains nicotine.

[Jim Cramer]

Nicotine is an addictive chemical. Last week turned brutal for the AI data center stocks when we got this pair of poorly received quarters from Oracle on Wednesday and then Broadcom on Thursday night. Oracle plunged 10.8% the next day. Broadcom dropped 11.4% on Friday. Drag the whole group down with them. Now, as I mentioned my Sunday Think piece for the CNBC Investing Club, I'm not that worried about Broadcom, which we own for the charitable trust. Broadcom reported a healthy top and bottom line beat. They gave strong sales and EBITDA guidance for the current quarter. The stock only got hit because the CFO in artfully mentioned on the conference call that their AI business will include more full rack systems next year, meaning more systems with components not entirely made by Broadcom and thus the gross margins on those systems will be lower. Oh, really scary. Oh, was the market stupid about this? It's not a big deal people. But remember the stock had run up a great really dramatically going in the quarter, so it got slammed. At the end of the day, I trust Broadcom CEO Hawk Tin. He has never, ever let me down to keep delivering excellent numbers. He will do it again. Historically speaking, every time the market's down to this guy, the market has been dead wrong. I told club members in that same Think piece that I would hold on to Broadcom. But after today's 20 point decline, it might be time to switch directions, do some buying. So I feel good about Broadcom. You're getting a real nice buying opportunity now. But Oracle, I got to tell you, this is a tough One, they reported genuinely disappointing earnings on Wednesday. And then they got hit with a negative report from Bloomberg on Friday that hammered the stock again. Of course, Oracle stock has been steadily sliding down lower since it peaked in September. Part because they've got a ton of business with open AI that Wall Street's just not sure about. People don't know if open can pay for it, in part because Oracle itself has been spending a fortune to build data centers all over the place. Investors don't know if the company keep that up either. So you got two problems. Got the open air, you got the Oracle balance sheet. From the get go, Oracle has been the red headed stepchild of the hyperscaler space. While Alphabet, Microsoft, Amazon and better have pristine balance sheets. Great credit ratings fund their immense capital investments through their equally immense cash flows. Oracle don't have that. That's the difference. They had a lot of debt, they had a much worse credit rate and their free cash flow has turned negative as the company's ramped up investments. I don't want that again. Really doesn't help that they have something like $300 billion with a business with open air. And we don't know even open AI should be able to pay for it. We hope they can. How about this? Here's an investment strategy. I'll keep it like this so you know what I'm talking about. But that was all known before last week. So what changed when Oracle reported last Wednesday? First, unlike Broadcom, Oracle legitimately disappointed. The revenue came in a little light. And even though the earnings per share were much better than expected, some of the other key lines came in soft. Oracle's all important cloud revenue grew 33%. Good. But wait a second. Low end of management's guidance for the quarter. And due to that guidance was only issued three months ago, their operating margin is a little light come on. Thanks to higher than expected cost of goods sold. Now that's a real problem for the stock. Basically, Oracle's story is now all about its ability to deliver on all the data center business. It's booked for the future. But if the company can't even hit targets that it issued three months ago, how the heck is it supposed to profitably build a legion of data centers over the next few years? Usually when they have that, they blow away the numbers. That's the whole point of this game. Worse, on Friday, Bloomberg published a report saying that Oracle has pushed back the completion dates for some of the data centers from open air for opening up from 2027 to 2028. According to People familiar with the work. The article added, quote, the delays are largely due to labor and material shortages, end quote. Although Oracle says they're meeting their contractual commitments and all milestones remain on track. In other words, they said that story is not true. Even with that denial from Oracle, the report had a major negative effect because it gets to the heart of what investors are so worried about here, that the company simply won't be able to fulfill its obligations and that the huge book of business it's touting the $500 billion plus in future revenue is somehow illusory. And even if Oracle can build all these data centers on time without massive cost overruns, we still have no guarantee that this Open Air Alpha, which makes up a huge chunk of its business, will be able to pay for it. I said Open Air Alpha because I am trying, yes, to be pejorative. I trust Larry Ellison Works co founder, chairman, chief technology officer, but I don't necessarily trust his biggest client, OpenAI, and I worry about the scale of what he's trying to build here. These datacenter sites are very complicated. Remember what my Glenn trader talked about when you I had him on his walk on the street. He's the core. We've got very, very complicated. And there's a whole industry that's fighting for the same components, which is bound to make the construction much more expensive than anybody thought going in. I believe only that the allure of being in Sam Altman's orb at OpenAI because he's a thought leader will give the company the wherewithal. Some people just want to be with a guy because they think he's just. They think he'd be the man. If they give him money, then they too look better. We do need to see multiple wins in multiple verticals to dispel the worries. But open AI, or we need to see an IPO, which we verify it had $40 billion in cash, much more coming from a gigantic stock deal. That's okay, too. Now, the damage from this series of events has been pretty far, reaching Oracle down. Get this. Oracle fell 10.8% on Thursday, another 4.5% on Friday, lost another 2.7% today. For good measure, the stock's back down to its lowest level in about six months, but it's still up 11% year to date. By the way, we've seen another leg higher for Oracle. Credit default swaps, which represent the price of insurance against the company's debt obligations. When those swap prices go up, lots of people are betting that Oracle won't be able to pay its debts. This had been a problem from September through November, but mostly stopped for a couple of weeks until last Wednesday when they're, you know, that's when we found out more here at this point, the cost of Oracle's five year cvs, that's credit default swaps, has more than tripled since September and it's at its highest level since late 2008, the most brutal phase of the financial crisis. But I should add that that happened I saw a huge amount of market manipulation these things to make them look worse than they were just putting it there out there because I like truth too. So it's clear the data center complex has come under pressure again over the past few sessions, but partly because of negative earnings reports from Oracle and Broadcom. But Broadcom had a genuinely good quarter. It's just had that stock had been priced for perfection and the results were not quite perfect. Again, I believe in CEO Hock Tan. I think Broadcom will be fine, which is why we're sticking with it for the Chapel Trust. Oracle, on the other hand, remains a pretty fraught situation. And the one two punch of bad news last week only made matters worse. If you want to bet on the data center story, there are a lot of better ways to do it. So here's the bottom line. Ultimately, I remain positive on the broader AI data center build out. But there are some increasingly glaring unresolved issues with Oracle, the biggest customer OpenAI and with the nuts and bolts of mass data construction. There's construction. These are all this is. What's fraught? OpenAI and Oracle. I think you need to be careful. Some of these stocks, the ones that don't have great balance sheets or great credit ratings. And Broadcom, like I said, club members. Stay close to your email. We could be pulling the trigger to buy more any minute. Eddie in Florida. Eddie, good afternoon. Jim, good afternoon. Happy holidays and thank you for taking my call. Of course. Many years. It's been many years since the last time we spoke, my friend. Anyway, following the earning report and a 25 point drop you had, the CEO made money, no red flags. And all the analysts increased the price target, gave the buy rating, no downgrades. Yet every day since that evening, the stock has been going down huge. What's wrong with snowflakes? Symbols. Okay. What's wrong with snowflake is it's in a cohort that's going down and it's in baskets that are going down and it's considered to be AI, which is going down because everybody you say Maybe there's a bubble. The bubble popped, idiots. He popped in the end of October. And I've watched these stocks all go down since then. But the people who are sightseeing liberal arts jokers are now telling me that there's a bubble that's brewing dopes. It already popped. Look, I think you need to be careful. Some of these companies associated with the data center trade, especially those with suboptimal balance sheets or credit ratings. That's it. Okay. Those are the ones to watch. Watch for me on it, including my sit down with Lindy. Talk about an outfit that doesn't have a credit rating problem. The industrial gas outfit has been a household name for the Chapel Trust. But how well do you know the company that's connected to so many different end markets and can't be brought down by any one? I'm getting the latest with the company's top brass, which has been buying stock and nuclear stocks have been powering higher for most of the year. But is now the perfect time to take some profits, if you still have any left. I'm sharing where I come down, of course. All your calls, Rapid Fire. Tonight's edition of the Lightning round. So stay with. The last few months have been brutal for the stock of Libby, the industrial gas distributor that we own for the travel Trust. Here's the stock pull back 20% from its highs in August to its lows last week. It's a brutal move, but it's strongly been a pretty consistent name. While lending somewhat cyclical given the nature of his industrial clients. This company has tremendous pricing power and a proven ability to put up consistent earnings growth year after year. Sure enough, over the past week, the stock made a nice move off the lows. Wall street noticed in some insider buying. Lindy had a few investor and analyst meetings and they all seem to have gone well. So we have to ask, can it keep running? Let's take a close look with Sanjeev lamba. He's the CEO of Lindy, who recently, by the way, bought $1 million worth of his own stock in the open good market. Mr. Lambert, welcome back to Mad Money.

[Sanjeev Lamba]

Thank you, Jim. Always good to be back.

[Jim Cramer]

Okay, so Sanjay, the thing that I think most of our viewers want to know is did something break at the company? It's been so consistent and then suddenly have a downturn in the stock. Did the stock make a mistake or is there some mistakes being made at the company?

[Sanjeev Lamba]

Jim, I have to say nothing's broken. Let's just start with that. We had the investors last week and we had the same message for them. I have to say the stock's probably broken over here, but but hey, here is the message. Lindy has got an algorithm and a business model that is robust. That algorithm is absolutely intact. That's what gives 10/plus percent EPS growth over the long term. In addition to that we are executing more than 10 billion of project backlog. That's an all time high. 7 billion of that is in long term contracts. 15, 20, 25 year contracts. They'll generate revenue and earnings every year. Imagine that. In addition to that we have management actions, proven pricing power. You've talked about it before. And of course productivity. We do 15,000 productivity projects now, helped by AI generating productivity. That hits the bottom line. You put that together, that's our EPS algorithm.

[Jim Cramer]

Okay, so we have a lot of people who own the stock because it's in my travel trust. And I think right now they're saying I wish he would tell us what an algorithm is because it's got to be something I really want to understand in order to be able to stay in the stock.

[Sanjeev Lamba]

Jim, I'd love to do that. So there are three parts to the algorithm. The earnings algorithm is driven by these three elements. The first, capital allocation, disciplined capital allocation. That's all about project backlog. The 10 billion I referenced earlier on acquisitions and share buybacks put together, the algorithm delivers 4 to 6% EPS growth. The next piece, management actions, pricing and productivity. Things that we control. We don't rely on the macro for these, these are things we know well. It's in our DNA that between the two of them, with the 25 year history of positive pricing, we can put together 4 to 6% of EPS growth. From there those two together, 8 to 12%. We don't need macro, which is a third leg. But you know what, a little bit of industrial activity pick up goes a long way because there's a multiplier effect. We hold onto the costs and everything that comes in the top line falls to the bottom line. In 2021 recovery post Covid volumes grew 7 to 8%, EPS grew 30%. That's the algorithm.

[Jim Cramer]

All right. So right now I look at the world and I think other than data center, there's really not a lot of industrial growth. Now industrial growth is part of the algorithm.

[Sanjeev Lamba]

It is.

[Jim Cramer]

And it looks like when you put them together that you know, building for the data center, industrial growth, that things are good. But in truth while you have a lot of projects, just the day to day industrial might seems to be slack in it.

[Sanjeev Lamba]

Yeah. And let me describe this because Jim, actually I'll go back and tell, you know, kind of repeat what you said before. We serve a mosaic of customers, right? More than 35% of our end markets are what we call resilient end markets. Electronics, health care, food and beverage. Look, everyone's got a drink, right? Doesn't matter what the economy is doing. People go and see the doctor. Doesn't matter what the economy is doing. That's a resilient bit that I expect to grow between mid single digit to high single digit every quarter. There's resiliency built into that model. The rest a bit more cyclical. What's in there? Energy and chemicals, metals and mining. Manufacturing in that now, you know, chemicals and metals clearly flattish, maybe a marginal growth or in some geographies a little bit down. But really I am seeing some green shoots in mining and I'm going to.

[Jim Cramer]

Give you a couple of weeks.

[Sanjeev Lamba]

So mining, obviously you're seeing a lot of movement happen that then leads to manufacturing. Manufacturing has got some real green shoots. Aerospace, we're going to talk a bit more about that. I'm excited about. Aerospace, of course, in addition to that, you're seeing a lot more construction. LNG projects, data center. Indirectly we are feeding into that, cutting and building gases, consumables. All of that comes from linde. And of course within that we see EV and battery companies also moving forward, what I think is left is for reshoring projects to really hit the ground running. The minute they do that, industrial gas consumption goes up.

[Jim Cramer]

All right, well, that's going to be it. Now let me ask you, the last time I believe that you bought stock in the open market was March of 2022. How, how did it do after you bought that stock?

[Sanjeev Lamba]

Well, I thought that was a good investment then. I have to say it's a good investment now. And as you know, last week I decided to go and go into the stock because I felt it's the best time for me to buy that stock.

[Jim Cramer]

And people have to know that it isn't like if the Stock went up 50, $50, you're then allowed to kick it out. That's not allowed.

[Sanjeev Lamba]

Absolutely not allowed. I'm going to hold this. I do not sell my Lindy stock. I believe in its long term future and a compounding benefit that Linda provides to its investors.

[Jim Cramer]

All right, last thing, rocket ships. When people feel rocketship, there's a lot of ways you can't buy right now what Musk is doing. But how about a fuel that everybody has to use when they send a rocket into space.

[Sanjeev Lamba]

Jim, I'm thrilled you asked that question. Aerospace excites me, but particularly commercial space. Now, you know, for more than five decades we've been supporting commercial space development.

[Jim Cramer]

Right.

[Sanjeev Lamba]

Right now I'm excited because I see exponential growth over there. We are pre investing, we're investing in assets now so that we're ready to support the growth that happens. And you know, there are a number of premier rocket rocket launch companies in the U.S. now, more than 3/4 of all launches are supported by Lindy as well. Fuel, we'll provide liquid oxygen, liquid nitrogen, we will provide liquid methane or hydrogen, whatever is needed to fuel those rocket launches. But that's just not it. Next, we actually provide rare gases for propulsion of satellites to put satellites in orbit.

[Jim Cramer]

Oh, there's 20,000 satellites.

[Sanjeev Lamba]

Every time you hear of a satellite going up, Jim, you got a bit of our gas going there to just put it into its orbit. And last but not least, some atomized powders to actually build 3D engineer the engines for rocket ships as well. All of that exciting growth supporting commercial space, but also growth for Lindy and its investment.

[Jim Cramer]

This is why we earn it, for the trust and why we're holding on to it. That Sanjeev Lamba, he's the CEO of Lindy. The symbol is Li and do you see why we own it? What a great story. Thank you. Thank you. Net money's back. It is time for the light on cruiser. Rappers on standby, call standard time, my stepparents, appearance of play the sound and then the lighting round is over. Are you ready? Ski dad. Hello everyone. Let's go to Paul and Flor. Paul. Hey, Booyah. Gentleman Jim Cramer. And a shout out to your staff, especially Josh. My question. Okay. And thank you for all you do. Looking to know what you think about Sencor. Sencora. Sencora. Like Kachak and Pa. Okay, I like Syncoro a lot. But I gotta tell you, I think this Cardinal Health Scott Em all beat Jason Holler is a visionary. I like that guy. Hey, I'm not done. Let's go to Fernando in Kentucky. Fernando. Jim, what's going on, man? How much? You tell me. Living the dream. Living the dream. Excellent. Thanks for always helping us make money. You betcha. That's the game. Jim, I have a. I bought this back at 26. You think I should add more or. Wait, it's BP stock. You should sell it before you hang up for me. Okay, let's go to. Let's go to Ford in Virginia. Oh, Ford, it must be like, you know. Let's go to Jim Farley in Virginia. Ford, what's up? Hey Jim. Thanks so much for taking my call. I greatly appreciate it. Let me give a quick shout out to my. Let me give a quick shout out to my daughters Abigail and Emily, who encouraged me to call you. We're all interested in Perpetua Resource Corporation. It's a hot stock, but let's go with Agnico. Let's go with Agnico because then we will remember it and remember it and remember it. And that, ladies and gentlemen, conclusion of the lightning round. If the CEO of a hyperscaler wants to go all in on nuclear power to the point of basically building their own nuclear reactor because it's clean energy, I say think again. The hyperscalers desperately need more electricity right now. And ideally they need it cheap. But nuclear plants have take ages to build. The last one we put in America took more than a decade to construct. And the upfront cost and overruns enormous. We really have never figured out how to make these things inexpensively and safely. At the same time, we never will. The truth is the hyperscalers are already spending fortunes building out new data centers. If they want that to be profitable, they need cheap accessible energy. And that means natural gas. Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of nuclear power for clean energy. But that's a long term solution to a long term problem. It's not a short term solution to anything. Some of my newfound cynicism with nukes comes from the tale of Fermi. This company, which is more of a business plan and actual business, came public on October 1st at 21 bucks raising $682 million and had a valuation more than 19 billion. At the end of its first trading day. Fermi was just a business plan to a virtual mall of power. Their plan is to deliver 11 gigawatts of power by 2038 through something called Project Matador. This a proposed hybrid power system with nuclear, natural gas and solar in Amarillo, Texas. But it's the nukes that caught everyone's attention. Especially as Fermi was founded by President Trump's first term energy product secretary Rick Perry, now Matador's lead tenant, pulled out last week. Oh man. The Stock has lost 44% of its value over the past two trading sessions. Brutal, Full of sound and fury. Signifying not but the nothing but the end of the year of magical investing. Look, I'm not saying that all nuclear nuclear related stocks will turn out to be as terrible as Fermi. But they're trading based on what might happen in 10 to 15 years, maybe 20. So if you haven't taken profits on these things, it's not too late to bring the register. Take Oklahoma, which I've been having you to sell for 40 points. Now Oklahoma is about fission reactors that could run on nuclear waste. The problem? The company hasn't actually developed any nuclear reactors. They've broken ground on one site. But this is a nearly $13 billion company with a stock that's up 280% year to date. Okay people, that's absurd. I'm sure the jokers who own the stock will pull it tomorrow morning because they're worried about what I just said. They don't want me to put the wood to it. I think your best opportunity comes between 10:30 and 11:30am because they are shameless. There's a paradigm to follow. New scope, new scale power which is trying to build small scale nuclear reactors. Like the other nuclear plays, this company is losing fortunes. Its stock which at one time was at 57 is now at 17 and change down just 3% for the year. I hope we can stay at that level but it might not be because well, it's got a pretty lofty valuation still. After all, if you want to build a small scale nuclear reactor, why not just go with ge? Vernova, very established mature company. It's actually building these. They got approval to start construction in the Darlington Nuclear Generating Station back in April. I saw some pictures. It looks like something's happening. Hey, by the way, four years is incredibly fast turnaround and that's when it's going to open. I doubt any of the newbies can come up with that. Now I know that the hyperscalers are willing to pay well over market rates for clean energy as Microsoft's doing when it buys nuclear power from the old Three Mile island complex. Microsoft in conjunction with Constellation Energy will reopen the now closed unit one of Three Mile. And although it's been renamed now the Crane Clean Energy Center. Hey, by the way, that's not the unit that melted down. That was unit two. Hey, maybe open AI will take a run at that one. That said, even though Constellation is getting a billion dollar loan to recommission the Crane plant, this is not really an economic decision. Microsoft's paying up for nukes because it cares about the environment. I say good for that, but Microsoft has ridiculously deep pockets. They can afford to make decisions based on what's good for the planet. If you're say Oracle, I don't think you have that luxury. And even if you have the ability to pay, nuclear is not going to do any good if you're hoping for electricity anytime soon. In the end, I think these nuclear stocks reward as part of the year of magical investing. And now that we've sobered up, they're going right back down. Sadly, I think there's more sobriety ahead for the industry. I'd like to say, as always, more market summer. I promise. I find just for you right here on Man Money. I'm Drew Grammer. Hey, see you tomorrow.

[Skye Perryman]

All opinions expressed by Jim Cramer on this podcast are solely Kramer's opinions and do not reflect the opinions of CNBC, NBCUniversal or their parent company or affiliates, and may have been previously disseminated by Kramer on television, radio, Internet or another medium. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Jim Cramer as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his opinion. Kramer's opinions are based upon information he considers reliable, but neither CNBC nor its affiliates and or subsidiaries warrant its completeness or accuracy, and it should not be relied upon as such. To view the full Mad Money disclaimer, please visit cnbc.com madmoneydisclaimer.

[Jim Cramer]

Before the trophy.

[Sanjeev Lamba]

And bragging rights are rightfully yours.

[Max Levchin]

Before your sleeper turns in a season no one saw coming, before stats and projections turn into points on the board.

[Jim Cramer]

And your lineup falls perfectly into place, you flip the lid on a can.

[Sanjeev Lamba]

Of on nicotine pouches.

[Max Levchin]

And as you make your first pick, you know this is the season where fantasy's going to surpass reality. It's on Products for tobacco consumers 21.

[Jim Cramer]

Years of age or older. Warning.

[Sanjeev Lamba]

This product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical.