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100 Days of Trump: Law & Disorder
00:42:33
Listen to MSNBC special coverage breaking down the most consequential legal moments from the first 100 days of the new administration.
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- [00:00]
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- [01:17]
Ari Melber
Welcome to this MSNBC special 100 Days of Trump Law and Disorder. And good evening to you. I'm Ari Melbourne. I'll be joining you for this special hour as we aim for some perspective on what has been, of course, a very litigious first hundred days in office. President Trump testing the limits of the law itself and the Constitution. We have a very special panel assembled of individuals you recognize, Melissa Murray, Mary McCord and Andrew Weissman. We'll be hearing from them not only in a moment, but also across the hour, so we're hoping to aim for some more depth and perspective. Indeed, if you're watching and thinking, I know about some of this stuff, I bet you do. But we promise with the time we've allotted to go even deeper into if you're interested in that kind of thing. Now, many have been pushing for even stronger efforts to find ways to combat President Trump's obvious and extreme power grabs across these hundred days. And those words, obvious and extreme, are based on the facts and the evidence and the cases where he's continued to run into trouble. Not an opinion, but rather the extremes that have drawn rebukes not only from lower court judges in both parties appointees, but all the way up through the Supreme Court. The president has claimed war powers to openly plot a bid for an illegal third term. Neither of those things are acceptable under the law. Both are testing the courts, I'll tell you that. Coming up in this special, we also have a booking of one of the nation's top civil rights lawyers who's doing this work in court, including bringing some of the very lawsuits which stopped Trump's power grab at the Supreme Court. An ACLU litigator will be joining us this hour and discussing the blueprint for facing down Donald Trump's DOJ and winning. That's not something that every guest or lawyer can say, but our guest can get into that later tonight. So what am I going to be asking our legal vets? Well, they're also going to break down what we've learned across these hundred days about combating the flood the zone strategy. Trump has done more than an executive order per day on average across these hundred days, in fact, 140 total. And his lawyers know that some of them are clearly dead on arrival in the courts. They're trying to overwhelm as much as govern, according to many critics. So that is obviously plenty to cover. As we begin, though, I want to share a point that cuts actually against President Trump and that no one could fully predict when he began his tenure 100 plus days ago. TRUMP is facing the worst stock market opening since Richard Nixon, the economy flashing red with recession signs as those hundred days hit this week. And historians and legal experts have often noted in various ways in arcane histories that what's happening out in the country can shape the public and judicial mood around a president's actions. In other words, what they get away with. Now, in theory, you'll be told, well, courts simply state the law and they're supposed to do that regardless of what's happening out there. In practice, though, we have seen times when a war is on or the nation's economy is booming. And courts may in various moments defer a bit more to a president than when the mood sours. As one legal scholar recently put it, Donald Trump has been testing the democratic system. And while courts can respond, it is also up to the nation, the people. If I can be so bold to show that we all have the democratic system's back. Now, we're seeing that already in mounting protests far more often than the first hundred days of most modern presidents, people in the streets. Trump is responding with a free speech crackdown. If you recall, during the campaign, he and some of his allies like Elon Musk using the words free speech, well, it turns out for them, according to a lot of experts, it was just words because they have now been trying to abuse government power to target everyone from students who speak out on policy to universities based on the learning and science or facts they deal with. That offends Donald Trump's MAGA movement All the way out to law firms. An issue you've probably heard about. Judges drawing the line, though, against Trump claiming war powers that he does not have. There is no declared war, and that is on behalf of a mass deportation agenda. That is an area where presidents have power, but not the same powers as conducting war. So I mention all that because with those headwinds in mind, we have some top line results. As the hundred days land, the administration has been contending with 225 legal challenges, Trump 2.0 bans, purges and retribution, as the New York Times dubbed it, with losses for various efforts. The Musk Group purge has all of those problems you can see just in summary, over the 100 days, judges rejecting attempts to freeze grants to break down federal agencies without Congress involved, but also upholding certain executive firings, for example, of groups of workers and even some inspectors general who were not deemed protected under the precedents that we have. Trump has made attacks on the trans community and tried to purge diversity programs. In some ways, he might have moved the conversation or the culture, as it is called, but legally, he's also faltered with some of those efforts, facing partial or temporary blocks in federal court. The immigration agenda is where you see, and this is what we're tracking for you to get a sense of it, as so much of these headlines have come so fast over the 100 days. If you look at all the X's on your screen, what you see is all the places where we've documented them losing or having setbacks, especially on immigration.
- [06:42]
Melissa Murray
President Trump's promised mass deportation operation is now underway.
- [06:45]
Ari Melber
The Trump administration says it sent hundreds of alleged Venezuelan gang members to El Salvador.
- [06:50]
Melissa Murray
A federal appeals court has upped, upheld a lower court ban on the deportation of hundreds of immigrants. Trump administration officials admitted to a, quote, administrative error that they made when they deported a Maryland father. That's up to El Salvador. If they want to return him, that's not up to us.
- [07:08]
Ari Melber
How can I return him to the United States? Like I smuggle him into the United States or what do I do? Of course I'm not going to do it. That's how this played out on the actual international stage in the seat of power of the White House. Trump's immigration agenda also garnering pushback from the majority conservative Supreme Court, which ordered the Trump administration to facilitate the return of the man that you just heard referenced in that meeting. That has not happened. So when you take it together, they're flooding the zone precisely to overwhelm the courts. And there would be judicial and legal opponents, the plaintiff lawyers who deal with these cases, but also in a very real sense, to leave a kind of chaotic feeling out in the country that it's working or they're getting away with it. And we will yet see, if you watch the news, you've seen nights where it seems like they are getting away with a lot. And yet I want to be very clear as we take stock of this in general, the immigration agenda is where Trump has tried to push the farthest, and it is where he has actually created the beginnings of a new alliance on behalf of Democratic presidents and against Donald Trump. And it includes three Trump appointees on the Supreme Court. One of the most significant rulings of these first hundred days was a rare overnight weekend ruling that blocked what I mentioned before, the effective attempt to seize those war powers. Now, you're not looking at a final merits decision. In other words, a lot more could happen in the future. But this was not the result that even Donald Trump's lawyers were expecting. Seven to two, at least on that first step of whether the war powers could be used for these deportations. There are also concerns that all of this could hit US Citizens as reports of American children deported alongside their undocumented mothers. A state judge arresting, getting arrested, I should say by the FBI over a very controversial case revolving arresting a federal arrest of a detainee there for immigration offenses. SCOTUS also handed Trump a win, we should note, for attempts to fire certain classes of workers and rejected Trump's request to avoid paying USAID contractors amid efforts to dismantle an agency. So you see a different ruling breakdown there. Federal courts also intervening when Trump wanted to strip international students of their legal status. One video that's gone more than viral shows the Tufts student detained by what were plain clothes federal officers. That has sparked questions about both the practice and the deportation agenda. There's a larger pattern here, as the Trump administration says that students will just be declared linked to terrorist organizations, but without what has been the traditional due process, let alone terror charges. For that. Most students targeted have also been outspoken, or I should say many, depending on the case you look at, have been outspoken in the Mideast conflict, a broader crackdown on the elite universities, Trump threatening their funding, the retribution tour against the prominent law firms. Some have cut deals, others fighting back. What we see here is that courts so far have been one of the last lines of defense against an administration that clearly wants not only expand executive power, but sort of show and test how much they can get away with. With all that in mind, under 10 minutes, we try to do a summary, and we bring in our guests for the hour. NYU law professor Melissa Murray, Mary McCourt, a former acting Assistant Attorney General for National Security at doj, and Andrew Weissman, former FBI General Counsel and a Mueller prosec Marianne. Andrew also co host the MSNBC Main justice podcast. And if we wanted to pull out Wikipedia, we could add many more details and accolades about all of your careers. Welcome, Andrew. Your thoughts tonight?
- [10:53]
Andrew Weissman
So I was thinking when you were talking that one way that I try and think about this is divide things into the illegal. Another group is the incompetent, and another group is the unwise. And it's worth sort of remembering that third bucket. There are a whole bunch of things that are going on that are legal. They just are things that I think many people would find to be sort of outrageous or improvident. I mean, just takesStart with day one, which is pardoning people who assaulted our democracy, but actually also assaulted law enforcement. Then there's this bucket of just the incompetent. Abrego Garcia could be an example of that. The claim that the Harvard letter was mistake, which I think is palpably not true given subsequent actions. But remember, the defense of what happened there is the government saying, oh, no, that was a mistake. So that would be gross incompetence as the defense of doing something that Harvard says is illegal. And then the thing that we spend a lot of time on is things where the courts have actually said over and over again, this is illegal. But I think it's useful to put it in the context of a number of different things, things that could be legal, but just, in my view, outrageous in terms of what the administration is doing. So I think it's useful to think about that in terms of all three of those things going on.
- [12:25]
Mary McCord
And you left out one that we've talked about on the podcast. Cruel. Just cruel. Right. Some of these things might be lawful, might be unlawful, but they're with malevolent intent. And I think an intent to really create multiple tiers of people in this country, and particularly targeted at immigrants, whether lawful or unlawfully here, but also at the LGBTQ community and really sort of anything other than white men, honestly. But on the illegal part, I think one of the key things here that we've just never seen in. In anything like this magnitude is the steamrolling the other two CO/ of government. Right. Plowing right over congressional statutes, dismantling departments and agencies that not only Congress statutorily created, but a president signed those statutes. That created those departments and agencies. Right. Ignoring appropriations that Congress under the spending clause had the constitutional authority to appropriate for certain purposes and just cutting off that funding. And so lots of times just ignoring Congress. But also now we are up against the very edge, if not having crossed over into violating court orders too, which then you're starting, then we're talking about trying to steamroll the judiciary.
- [13:47]
Ari Melber
And Melissa, when you talk about that steamrolling, the political messaging over the legal clashes is almost joyous or cartoon villain style. Take a look at Carolyn Livitt from earlier this week. Would you ever arrest somebody higher up on the judicial food chain, like a federal judge or even a Supreme Court justice? That's a hypothetical question.
- [14:11]
Melissa Murray
Again, I defer you to the Department of Justice for individuals that they are looking at. So anyone who is breaking the law or obstructing federal law enforcement officials from doing their jobs is putting themselves at risk of being prosecuted. Absolutely. You heard it there. They know exactly what they're doing. We haven't really covered this that much. I don't know that many news outlets have covered it. But last week, America's First Legal, which is Stephen Miller's legal outfit, not an arm of the administration per se, but certainly in league, I think, filed a lawsuit against John G. Roberts, the chief justice of the United States, in his capacity as the chief administrator of the Federal Judicial Conference. And the whole idea behind this lawsuit is that the Federal Judicial Conference, which has always been the administrative branch of the federal courts, is actually a part of the executive branch. And again, it seems wildly implausible that that is the case. But I think the point of this lawsuit is like we can do whatever we want to you. We can issue these threats against judges. We can say we're not going to abide by judges orders, and we can also sue the chief justice and make him an actual defendant in his official capacity in a lawsuit. And you know, Mary made a good point about this administration essentially giving the double middle finger to both Congress and the courts. They've been doing that from day one. We don't talk about the TikTok case that much, but the court issued a unanimous opinion upholding Congress's bipartisan ban on TikTok, requiring TikTok to divest itself of Chinese ownership on the Friday before the inauguration. And the president elect over the weekend said he had a better idea. He was going to do a deal. And to my mind, that was the first constitutional crisis. And we don't even really talk about that.
- [15:55]
Ari Melber
Why don't we talk about it?
- [15:56]
Melissa Murray
Great.
- [15:56]
Ari Melber
Question.
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Melissa Murray
I mean, we should be talking about it because it has been an harbinger of everything that has followed. It was the template for what we are seeing now, just the abject defiance of the courts and Congress on the sidelines.
- [16:12]
Andrew Weissman
So one of the things that you're such a Supreme Court guru is essentially you have the administration in the Abrego Garcia case, just as one example, doing something that, to my mind, is, as our colleague Ryan Goodman said, it sort of thrice denied what it is that the courts have said. Whether it is the initial court saying do not send him to El Salvador, whether it's saying you have to give him due process, whether it's saying you have to facilitate his return. That's sort of the thrice is the Supreme Court going to stand up? I mean, the number one question we get, and I'm sure you get on your podcast as well, is what are the courts going to do? Because they don't have an army.
- [16:57]
Melissa Murray
They don't have an army. I think one of the reasons why you saw the court's decision, the earlier decisions around Judge Boasberg's order, they initially said it should not have been filed in Judge Boasberg's court. It should have been filed in Texas, where the detainees were before they were expelled to El Salvador. And then they said that habeas was the appropriate vehicle to go forward. Real questions about whether you can aggregate habeas proceedings like they're usually done singly. That means each individual detainee likely has to have their own lawyer in order to proceed.
- [17:26]
Andrew Weissman
Whack a mole, right?
- [17:28]
Melissa Murray
Terrible. Terrible. But I think part of it is like the court a little worried that this administration is not going to listen, and they're trying to find ways to kind of play out the clock a little bit. One thing, though, I do think is encouraging about the court's order that you mentioned, Ari, is, you know, it was a seven to two order. I think we ought to wonder why it wasn't 9 to 0, why Justices Alito and Thomas weighed in on in favor of the administration, but the fact that they issued that ruling at one in the morning and did not wait for Justice Alito to file his dissent that came later suggests that this court knows that the administration cannot be trusted. The presumption of regularity in the executive no longer exists.
- [18:08]
Ari Melber
So just unpack that a bit more because when those stories break, Melissa, people say, oh my gosh, seven two, and the Trump appointees. And that's sort of the headline. And in my view, as both a legal Reporter and lawyer is that is the first headline because you say whoa, seven to two and the Trump folks. But then underneath that is you're hard pressed to find other modern examples in the last decades where to distill what you observe. The court looks over and says not only the president's leadership, but enough people now in the executive branch who might not have been there in 2017, when you think about the range of purging, can't be trusted, in other words, are either bad faith actors so they're going to find a way around complying or are full blown liars, which in court we call perjury. What did that mean when you saw that and how does that affect what you expect the Supreme Court to do in the next few in the next few months?
- [19:04]
Melissa Murray
And then Mary so I'm done predicting what the Supreme Court is going to do full stop. But I do think that did raise eyebrows. The fact that they issued that at one in the morning they have a pretty, I wouldn't say leisurely, but they keep business hours. Right. To do something at one in the morning was highly unusual. Not waiting for a noted dissent from one of their colleagues. Also highly unusual it was because they knew time was of the essence. If they did not issue that order immediately, who knows what the administration would do.
- [19:34]
Andrew Weissman
In fact, just to be clear just how dramatic that was on the Friday night, one of the government lawyers had said to Judge Boasberg, a district judge, we will not do anything today, but I need to tell you we're reserving the right to do something tomorrow, which means 12:01. So in terms of thinking about the sort of TikTok of what was happening, the Supreme Court knew that if they did not act immediately, those planes could have been taking off and that all these people could end up in El Salvador with the government saying we wash our hands a bit.
- [20:09]
Mary McCord
Two more points on this we've emphasized 7, 2. But there was one part of this where everyone was unanimous. Even in Justice Alito's dissent, joined by Justice Thomas at the very end after he objects to doing an emergency middle of the night ruling without hearing from the government, without the lower courts having gotten a chance to have it percolate and rule on it, he makes clear the executive must obey our order of April 7, which was the order that says you have to provide due process notice and an opportunity to seek relief in the court. So remember, all nine agreed to that multiple times and I just want to keep flagging that over and over. Now at some point the decision will be how much process is due. And that's where some of the justices might fracture. The other point is this is still on hold because the Supreme Court said the seven there said no further deportations of the putative class from the northern districts of Texas until further order of this court. And that's been. Now time is I don't really good track of time anymore, but it's been.
- [21:16]
Lee Gelert
More than a week.
- [21:17]
Ari Melber
We're going to deal with that later in the hour. What is time? I'm going to fit in our first break. We set aside a really long opening here, and I know you wanted to make another point on immigration, which I want to come back to. So our esteem panel stays. That's the good news. Why we've gone deep. We're going to look at the resistance by the end of the hour. The protests gathering as Donald Trump is caught abusing power to try to punish law firms. How that has also recently run into more judicial resistance. Also, as promised, the lead attorney fighting for due process, winning some of the very cases we just discussed. Our special guest next impact confirmed.
- [21:59]
Melissa Murray
The slayer has been activated.
- [22:03]
Ari Melber
Demonic threat level increasing. Hold the line. All the power of hell. Cowering of all One Man it software presents the Dark Ages. Available May 15 on Xbox Series X&S, PlayStation 5 and PC, pre order now.
- [22:25]
Andrew Weissman
Rated M for mature.
- [22:28]
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- [23:07]
Melissa Murray
We found love in an open space.
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- [23:37]
Ari Melber
Welcome back to our special Law and Disorder. I am Ari Melber, and we are looking at how Donald Trump's legal agenda, including his effort to use deportation powers to expand executive power overall, has often been slowed and sometimes fully thwarted. In court, it suffered what some call the worst legal defeat yet as The New York Times put it ruling that they had a sweeping, most sweeping ruling issued so far in this Texas borderland case. The judge found Trump was wrong to even assert that the activities of a Venezuelan gang were a, quote, invasion, which is a legal term in this matter. That would justify wartime powers, which is pretty straightforward even if you don't know all the law. We have not declared war on those countries and they have not invaded through any military means. This is on of the Supreme Court also preventing more of those deportations, something we discussed earlier in the program. The larger pattern is the president seeing how much he can get away with, whether it's immigration or tariffs or anything. That is what they sometimes call a unitary power, meaning it wouldn't automatically involve Congress, but it doesn't mean it's unlimited powers. We are now joined by the special guest I mentioned. Lee gelert is the ACLU's deputy director of the Immigration Rights Project. He's argued dozens of these key cases, most recently for deported immigrants who were fighting whether the president could even use those war powers. Let's take a listen to him.
- [25:03]
Lee Gelert
There's common ground now that there has to be process. We're talking about people being sent to El Salvador, the worst, one of the worst prisons in the world, incommunicada. They're essentially being disappeared.
- [25:16]
Ari Melber
Lee joins us. Melissa is still with us. And the rest of our panel of legal eagles will be returning later in the hour. Let's start with a positive from your view and the ACLU's view, you've been winning, right? So big picture, why have you been winning some of these early? I mentioned they're not the final merits resolution. But let's just start with why are you winning some of these cases so far?
- [25:39]
Lee Gelert
You know, I think the Trump administration is pushing it to such an extent that the courts are saying, wait, wait, basic principles here have to come into play. You know, the Trump administration is doing a lot about trying to paint immigrants as horrendous people and demonizing immigrants. And but they're pushing up against things like as you've talked about so often, Melissa, basic due process principles. And the courts are pushing back from either. You know, I sort of a believer that the federal judiciary are very serious people and you can get into the whole sort of partisan thing, but if you push too far against these basic principles that they believe in, they will push back. And I think they've said, look, we do say what the law is. That's our role in this system. And we're going to say what the Law is. And if you're going to claim no due process whatsoever, then you're going to get pushback from us. And I think that's what's going on. You know, sort of forget each little move, but those big principles are coming into play. Play. And I think you see people on both sides of the aisle saying, wait, wait, that could be anybody who sent if you don't give any ability to contest. And I think that's sort of at the big picture level, what's going on.
- [26:52]
Ari Melber
Which is interesting because you're dealing with the first impact emergencies, the actual human beings affected by this. Some of them you've saved, some of them are stuck in a foreign prison.
- [27:02]
Lee Gelert
Exactly.
- [27:02]
Ari Melber
But you're dealing with that. And then there's a wider audience, as we've covered how Joe Rogan and other podcasters who literally endorsed Donald Trump in November are now saying, yeah, but we didn't endorse this. Go ahead.
- [27:15]
Lee Gelert
No, no, no, you're absolutely right, because I think when people say we want harsher deportation or we want more deportation, it's sort of an abstraction. It's kind of vague. And so as you both have talked about, when people see what happens in practice, then they say, wait. Exactly how you put it. Wait, we didn't endorse this. And so that happened the first term with family separation is another case I did where people said, yeah, we wanted more deportations, we wanted, you know, more enforcement of immigration, but wait, we didn't want little babies being taken away. And now this where all of a sudden there's no due process. And then they say, wait, that's not exactly what we thought you were talking about.
- [27:52]
Ari Melber
And these federal judges are not rookies. They've long left a lot of room for political rhetoric. They understand that politicians will say stuff on the campaign trail. They have doctrines that allow that. Right. And yet you've been able to show it court, that this goes well beyond that. We're dealing with what we discussed earlier in the hour, which is that some of these people have been caught lying, being bad faith, trying to get around orders, whether it's a technical violation, you can have that litigated, but they're clearly doing that. So let's play a little more of you in court, where you were saying to the judges, basically, and I want you to explain this on the other side, that these folks aren't on the level. They're trying to move in secret. Let's take a listen.
- [28:30]
Lee Gelert
The whole thing has played out in secret. The president is supposed to make a Public proclamation. He signed it on March 14. It wasn't published till the afternoon of March 15. People are already being lined up to be brought to planes. This is an unprecedented move to use the Alien Enemies act for only the fourth time in our country's history without a declared war. Yeah, I mean, I think that's the difference between. And, you know, you guys have both hit on it. Between Trump 1 and Trump 2. There's really an attempt to sideline the courts, and there's always been this attempt to sideline Congress, but now to sideline the courts as well. I mean, they're doing a few things. One is they're moving people around all the time to try to keep us from getting into the right court. So we go to one court and get injunction, then they move people to another. I mean, even with this Alien Enemies act, that piece you just played, he signs it on March 14, doesn't tell anybody. But we find out they're starting to get people ready, then they finally publish it on the 15th. But the statute says very clearly, you're supposed to publish the Alien Enemies act proclamation if you want to use it, make it public. But they're already trying to move it before it becomes public. We find out that people are being moved. We go into court, and then they say, well, you're too early. Well, you know, it hasn't even published it, but the people would have been gone. And as you said, they were already some people gone.
- [29:57]
Melissa Murray
So, Lee, I think these sort of procedural shenanigans are really important to highlight. And I'm thinking about the hearing before Judge Boasberg, where Judge Boasberg had initially told the government's lawyers, you must turn these planes around and return them. And later, when they weren't returned, Judge Boseberg's like, you didn't listen to me. And they're like, well, it was a minute order, an oral order, not a written. I didn't know I was supposed to do that. And I mean, it just. These are federal judges. Like, they aren't used to people playing in their faces, like. Like, they're used to obedience. And this is not what happens. And even for someone like Judge Boasberg, who I don't think anyone would call a liberal squish, like, right, right. This guy is on the level. And he's like, what are you talking about? Like, you know what I meant.
- [30:40]
Lee Gelert
Yeah, you know for sure. I mean, I think he has said to them, I've never seen anything like this. And all my time on the bench, and I haven't either. And I think that's one of the interests in Trump 1 and Trump 2. They are really being strident in court. They are not giving an inch. Even when you know that any other lawyer would say, well, that's reasonable, that's true.
- [30:59]
Melissa Murray
Or when they do give an inch, they're relieved of their duties. I mean, we have that lawyer who admitted in open court that the detent, the expulsion of Abrego Garcia was an administrative error. That person was removed from the Department of Justice. Right.
- [31:13]
Lee Gelert
And I've litigated him against him through many, many administrations, Democratic and Republic. And I know he's a zealous advocate, but he's straightforward with the court. And that's what you're supposed to be as a Justice Department. And a Justice Department lawyer is not supposed to win any way they can, even if it's manipulation of the courts. They're supposed to do justice. They're supposed to be zealous advocates.
- [31:34]
Ari Melber
Right. They're an officer of the court. And of the United States.
- [31:37]
Lee Gelert
Exactly. Of the United States.
- [31:38]
Ari Melber
Right. Finally, as we conclude this interview with you, do you see an avenue where anyone's going to be held in contempt, where officers of the United States are actually going to be sanctioned or jailed if we see this bad faith resistance from the government?
- [31:54]
Lee Gelert
That's a very good question. You know, I'm not really sure. I mean, we're litigating this. Judge Boasberg has said there's probable cause for contempt. They've gone to the circuit. I suspect they will litigate that very hard. I'm not really sure where all this plays out, where there could be civil criminal contempt. But, I mean, we are trying to keep our eye on. He has said, look, you can get out from under this contempt potentially if you bring these men back who were unlawfully sent to El Salvador. They're refusing to do that. That's what we're keeping our eye on.
- [32:23]
Ari Melber
Right. And then we have the president recently admitting in an interview, yeah, I could follow the order, but I'm not going to. Which again, we're going to see if the Supreme Court takes that seriously. Lee, you've been on this mission and on the role, so we appreciate you joining us here on the special. Our entire legal panel is with me. Next, we're going to fit in a break, but we look at the universities targeted in Trump's free speech crackdown. And the first hundred days, we have something very special to show you that might help it all make a little more sense. Impact confirmed.
- [32:53]
Melissa Murray
The Slayer has been activated.
- [32:58]
Ari Melber
Demonic threat level increasing. Hold the line.
- [33:05]
Melissa Murray
Everything will be destroyed. We need him.
- [33:10]
Lee Gelert
Our enemy is divided. Focus on breaking the humans. I can never rule so long as you are the only one they fear.
- [33:24]
Ari Melber
All the power of Hell.
- [33:27]
Lee Gelert
Cowering before one man.
- [33:32]
Ari Melber
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- [33:50]
Andrew Weissman
Rated M for mature.
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- [34:57]
Ari Melber
Hi, I'm Ari Melbourne. Welcome back to our law and disorder special. President Trump has now marked 100 days. You've probably heard about that. And I want to show you something. We've put together to try to make sense of the legal parts with the day count and kind of take some perspective. And then our legal eagles are here with us again. On the other side, a federal judge.
- [35:18]
Melissa Murray
Has just temporarily blocked President Trump's order attempting to end birthright citizenship. The president himself cannot amend the Constitution.
- [35:26]
Mary McCord
A federal judge said that Elon Musk's.
- [35:28]
Melissa Murray
Folks who are inside of the Treasury.
- [35:31]
Mary McCord
Department's payment systems, have to stop a.
- [35:33]
Melissa Murray
Wave of mass firings.
- [35:35]
Ari Melber
I have no idea how I'm going to recover from this outrage at the dismantling of the federal government. President Trump. Trump is losing in a major way at the Supreme Court.
- [35:45]
Melissa Murray
I saw our campus now.
- [35:49]
Ari Melber
The president invoked the Alien enemies Act of 1798. Those planned deportations that had supposed to have been halted went forward.
- [35:57]
Andrew Weissman
Trump administration has already admitted that they deported him recklessly.
- [36:01]
Ari Melber
We have breaking news Right now from the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court unanimously ordered Garcia to come back.
- [36:07]
Melissa Murray
It's all about the erosion of the rule of law.
- [36:10]
Andrew Weissman
Now, 90 days may not seem like a long time, but remember, Trump has only been president for 82 days and it already feels like a goddamn decade. The constitutional crisis is here.
- [36:22]
Melissa Murray
President Bukele does not want to give him back to the United States, nor.
- [36:26]
Mary McCord
Do we want him back.
- [36:27]
Ari Melber
We will not allow the United States of America to become an oligarchy.
- [36:35]
Melissa Murray
This head to head really between President Trump and Fed Chair Jay Powell.
- [36:39]
Ari Melber
The Supreme Court temporarily blocked the Trump administration from deporting a second group of migrants.
- [36:45]
Melissa Murray
The markets now continue to drop.
- [36:46]
Mary McCord
Duterte crushed our institutions within six months of taking office.
- [36:52]
Ari Melber
You can't have a trial for all of these people.
- [36:55]
Mary McCord
The United States, this administration is moving faster.
- [36:58]
Ari Melber
If in the long run, will it hurt the country?
- [37:01]
Andrew Weissman
51% the public is deeply, deeply, deeply against what Trump is doing.
- [37:08]
Ari Melber
And we are back with our experts, Melissa, Mary and Andrew, all who have expansive federal legal experience. Mary, you look at that altogether and you realize on many days of the first hundred, the lead thing in a substantive way, and I don't mean the media, I mean the most important thing sometimes happening in the federal government was a clash between branch over fights. The administration picked that any working lawyer, federalist society or otherwise would have told them in advance, you probably don't have this power.
- [37:38]
Mary McCord
That's one of the remarkable things here because so many things he's done. He would have needed in an ordinary world to go to the Office of Legal Counsel at the Department of Justice and get a legal opinion on that. Well, he did these things so fast and furious. Number one, I don't think there was even time for that if he wanted to. And secondly, it appears that he's just sort of not paying attention to that office. I mean, there are political appointees in that office. And so it always does change policy wise administration to administration. But there is no one giving him the advice he needs to stop completely walking into losses in court or he's ignoring the vice. You know, it could be a combination of both and it could be he doesn't care because he seems to be prepared to lose in court. And that's where we're, you know, pushing to what's going to happen.
- [38:29]
Melissa Murray
I think that's exactly right. He is prepared to lose in court. And I think the attacks on the judges are to lay the groundwork in the court of public opinion that the judiciary doesn't actually matter. He keeps harping on this mandate, essentially telling the public, you voted for this, you voted for me, that's the only thing that matters. That's the rule of law, not what these judges have to say.
- [38:52]
Ari Melber
And I want to bring Andrew in, but put some of the numbers on the board. I mentioned that the courts will say we only do law, but other things can matter. We've seen wartime impacts. If you look at the 100 day approval, Donald Trump doesn't have a strong hand. If you separate the bluster and we look at the actual approval numbers, it is 39%, the lowest in 80 years, including his first term. If you look at this Fox poll where you ask people about the issues he loses on, overall immigration, overall performance, guns, everything, border security as a subset is the only place he can find a majority. And so Andrew, does it matter that in a fight where the President says, hey, everyone supports this, that's not true. And judges can see if they're informed that he is fading after the first hundred days, not rebounding?
- [39:48]
Andrew Weissman
Look, the salvation here has to be the populace. And the salvation is clearly not Congress, which has not been doing anything. The courts can only do so much. Remember, a lot of what we're talking about is something that may be illegal, but there's a whole lot that's going on that is legal and just improvident. And so that's where you really need those pulse. I mean, that is why that is ultimately the key issue. What we're seeing in terms of the attack on the judiciary, I mean, nobody should be surprised. This is a man who is a convicted felon in that sitting now in the Oval Office, we saw him attack prosecutors and the courts for the entire time that he was under indictment. So now you're seeing the exact same thing. It's the reason he's attacked the media, anybody who stands up. And part of it, even when he loses, is fear. So the idea of attacking the law firms is that they have the fear they will obey in advance. The attacking of universities is so you have fear in obeying in advance even if he loses. The international students, international scholars thinking about, thinking twice about coming here, scientists thinking, you know what, what better to be doing this in Canada, in England, in France? I mean, the repercussions because of the nature of what he is doing, even if the courts ultimately say you can't do this, are enormous.
- [41:26]
Ari Melber
And I want to ask each of you what's the most important lesson going forward? Because now we've heard tonight about some things that worked and some of what you each describe as kind of the slide the way that things that used to be guardrails now are being tested. So we're going to hear again from each of our panelists when we come back.
- [41:43]
Andrew Weissman
Donald Trump is the most unpopular president since Kevin Spacey.
- [41:49]
Ari Melber
Yep. Trump's approval rating is down to 39%. That's right. Even, even measles is polling at 40%. You know, say it's bad.
- [42:00]
Andrew Weissman
100 days of Donald Trump.
- [42:04]
Ari Melber
I'm so tired. Late night capture the moon. And it is relevant to the legal environment we're in, where judges, including the Supreme Court, are figuring out how to deal with a president who is both demanding more power than anyone in the modern era, but also watching his approval and the economic conditions he's presiding over crumble before us. Melissa, Mary and Andrew are here. Andrew, as we try to deliver on what we aimed for tonight, the lessons going forward for the things that worked dealing with this Trump legal onslaught.
- [42:40]
Andrew Weissman
Let's learn from history is the way I look at this, which is all of us at this table were too Young for the McCarthy era. But I think there are real lessons there for us, which is we are seeing blacklisting. We're seeing the same kind of abuse, the same kind of fear, the same kind of obeying in advance. And I think the less if you think it can't happen again, it is happening. The idea that, oh, that's something that's just in our history and we're well beyond that. No, that is what is happening now, not just blacklisting, but people going along with it, not being the people who stand up. And I think that is the lesson, which is if you want to be on the right side of history, you need to not be afraid. You need to speak, you need to be saying to people who want to use fear as a way to silence you that you still have First Amendment right.
- [43:38]
Mary McCord
Well, it's the time for the people, right? I mean, you're showing the polling, we're showing more and more protests because the three branches of government, the executive is trying to steamroll the others. The judiciary is trying to put up roadblocks wherever it can. Congress is asleep. And it's time for the people to demand something more. And I think as we do get closer to 2026, we're going to see more and more and more of that. But in the meantime, it really is incumbent on the three branches to all do their part. And I just want to quote from Judge Royce Lamberth, a district court judge in D.C. appointed in 1987 by President Reagan, in ruling against the Trump administration just a few days ago, said, if our nation is to thrive for another 250 years, each co equal branch of government must be willing to courageously exert the authority entrusted to it by our founders. And he said that after quoting from Federalist number 51. So he's saying, we're doing our part, Congress needs to do its part. And I'd say another branch, not really a branch. The people.
- [44:42]
Ari Melber
Yeah. And there are fundamentals there. And I know Andrew got a little concerned when you said you were going to quote because he's very strict with music quotes.
- [44:51]
Andrew Weissman
We've been doing this, but I trust Mary.
- [44:53]
Ari Melber
Mary was fine. We've been doing this together for years, and he will patrol a quote. But once we got that it was Federalist papers and judges, we were back on track. Melissa, close us out here.
- [45:02]
Melissa Murray
So I agree entirely with Mary. Congress needs to get off the couch and get in the game. But I think the other thing we need to do is stop looking at all of these different episodes as sort of individual, isolated episodes. They're all part of a concerted strategy to close down every legal avenue that could be an engine of dissent against this administration. We have DOJ no longer enforcing justice. Like the whole dismantling of dei. Everything the DOJ has done the thus far has been in support of this administration. They have attacked the courts to undermine the court's trust with the public. For when the courts actually do speak. They are attacking the whole prospect of the nationwide injunction. So it's going to make it harder for people to challenge the administration's actions. They'll have to do it in every different jurisdiction. That'll be entirely unwieldy. They are subjugating law firms and they are trying to attack public interest firms, too. All of that is about reducing the amount of legal resources available for this fight. It is not a coincidence. This is a strategy to make the law no longer work for the people.
- [46:06]
Ari Melber
And it's up to the people, as each of you have said, to be informed and to be citizens in that sense, because we're up against so much. I want to thank our legal scholars here. I think we learned a lot and we have a lot coming up. I'll tell folks watching at home. Again, our thanks to Melissa, Mary and Andrew. You can find excerpts of these segments on msnbc.com re that's msnbc.com Ari if you heard from our experts and want to share that, we'll be posting that on our YouTube page. That does it for us. Keep it locked right here on msnbc.
- [47:14]
Mary McCord
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Melissa Murray
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Ari Melber
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