Hold on "For Just a Little Longer"

Main Justice – "Hold On 'For Just a Little Longer'"
MSNBC | October 21, 2025 | Hosts: Andrew Weissmann & Mary McCord

Overview

This episode of Main Justice delves into the rapidly evolving legal conflicts emerging as the Trump administration resumes power, focusing on the federalization of the National Guard, aggressive ICE/CBP tactics, political prosecutions (including the Bolton indictment), and a pivotal Supreme Court case on the Voting Rights Act. Weissmann and McCord, drawing on deep DOJ experience, untangle consequential court battles, spotlight separation-of-powers concerns, highlight interagency blame-shifting, and express grave concern about threats to democratic norms and the rule of law.

Episode Structure

Opening & Episode Roadmap [01:10–04:18]
Jack Smith Interview Recap & Prosecutors Speaking Out [04:18–07:56]
Legal Developments: National Guard Deployments, ICE, and Protests
a. 9th Circuit (California/Portland) [07:56–23:38]
b. 7th Circuit & Supreme Court (Chicago/Illinois) [25:30–32:51]
Washington Post Scoop: Gang Member Extraditions and Implications [32:51–39:11]
Judicial Orders: Use of Force Against Protesters and Compliance Issues [39:11–40:05]
Political Prosecutions: Bolton, Comey, and Related Court Motions [41:50–55:08]
Supreme Court Arguments: Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act [55:11–59:50]
Closing Remarks

Key Topics & Insights

1. Jack Smith Interview & the Value of Direct Communication

Timing Matters: Andrew’s interview with former Special Counsel Jack Smith was notably topical amidst “political prosecutions.”
Transparency and Humanity: Andrew lauds Smith’s candor and authenticity, suggesting public exposure lets people "make a judgment about him… not on a caricature." [(04:54)]

"He struck me as like an Eagle Scout… so important for people to hear him himself and to see him and to make that judgment unfiltered through the noise." —Weissmann [06:21]
The Rare Prosecutor’s Voice: Mary notes seeing Smith outside the confines of a podium or court order is rare and valuable. Smith’s approach recalls Archibald Cox during Watergate.
Prosecutor Communication Debate: Andrew teases that Smith addressed the perennial question: Should prosecutors speak more openly to the public? (Details in linked interview.)

2. National Guard Deployments: Legal and Constitutional Fights

A. Rationale for Federalization & Recent Protests [07:56–10:48]

Federalization Justifications: Trump’s DOJ claims National Guard deployments to Portland, Chicago, et al., are needed to “protect ICE” from peaceful protests.
Historical Context: Recent “No Kings” protests drew ~7M participants, overwhelmingly peaceful, contrary to administration claims branding them "hate America rallies."

“This was not a Hate America rally. This was we love America and we want to preserve the best of America…” —Mary [10:21]
Dangers of Rhetoric: Andrew warns against normalizing claims that peaceful protest equals anti-Americanism:

"That reminds me so much of the Nixon era... The idea that you're not viewing these people as constituents… to me that was so jarring." —Weissmann [11:00]

B. 9th Circuit – Portland Case

Statutory Grounds: The Insurrection Act, invoked by Trump, allows call-up for insurrection, invasion, or if states are "unable" to maintain order with regular forces.
Judicial Disagreement: The 9th Circuit’s 2–1 ruling deferred to Presidential judgment ("great deference") about incapacity of local law enforcement, despite dissent (Judge Graber) warning against expanding executive emergency powers.

"The majority permits the President to invoke this emergency authority in a situation... barred divorce from an enumerated emergency." —Mary paraphrasing Judge Graber [14:16]
Key Dissent (Quote):

“We rule on facts, not on supposition or conjecture, and certainly not on fabrication or propaganda. I urge my colleagues on this court to act swiftly, to vacate the majority's order... Above all, I ask those who are watching this case unfold to retain faith in our judicial system for just a little longer.” —Judge Graber [22:12]
Congressional Complicity: The statutory ambiguity enables executive overreach; Congress could tighten limits.

C. 7th Circuit & Supreme Court – Chicago/Illinois Case [25:30–32:51]

Recent Rulings: The 7th Circuit let stand a TRO blocking actual deployment of federalized National Guard on Illinois streets, while permitting federalization itself (no street deployment).
Supreme Court Emergency Application: DOJ sought emergency stay from Justice Barrett, who declined immediate relief, expediting briefing instead—signaling seriousness and the high stakes.
Constitutional/Statutory Split: Argument hinges on whether deployment power is a “committed political question” (i.e., non-reviewable by courts) or fundamentally constrained by Congress, not just the President.
Fact-finding Issues: Supreme Court's willingness to override district court factual findings (on-the-ground realities) is concerning for due process.

3. Immigration Deals and Prosecutorial Integrity [32:51–39:11]

Washington Post Scoop: A reported deal (facilitated by Marco Rubio) to trade accused U.S.-based criminals, including MS-13 gang members—some of whom are confidential U.S. cooperators—back to El Salvador.
Compromised Ethics:

"To think that we would then sell [cooperators] out… that just violates the very core of your ethics as a prosecutor." —Mary [35:27]
Long-Term Consequences: Disincentivizing foreign cooperation with DOJ, undermining U.S. word and witness protection promises.
Interagency Blame-Shifting: DOJ is now pointing at Customs and Border Protection for aggressive protest tactics rather than ICE—unusual public intra-agency conflict.

4. Judicial Orders: Use of Force Against Protesters

Pattern of Noncompliance: Judge Ellis in Illinois has repeatedly found the government violating court orders on use of force and arrests against journalists and protesters.

"When you have an agency that is just violating that law, it doesn't make people feel really good for me to say the law requires probable cause." —Mary [38:42]
Broader Pattern: Echoes earlier discussions (with Ryan Goodman) about judges holding agencies in contempt for disregard of judicial authority.

5. Political Prosecutions: Bolton Indictment & Comey Motions [41:50–55:08]

A. John Bolton Indictment

Allegations: As national security advisor, Bolton is alleged to have transmitted classified information (notes from intel briefings and sensitive sources/methods) over personal email to unauthorized individuals, later found on hard drives.
Severity & Precedent:

“The fact that it's the National Security Advisor is not a mitigating fact… it is an exacerbating fact.” —Andrew [41:59]
Uneven Justice: "Two systems of justice" concern—other (pro-Trump) figures (e.g., Pete Hegseth, "Signalgate") not investigated for similar classified mishandling.

"It's not that John Bolton... should not be charged. It's that other people should have been charged. You can't single people out like this." —Andrew [44:32]

B. James Comey Motions

Vindictive/Selective Prosecution: Strongly pleads retaliation/malice from Trump administration, including First Amendment chilling.

"There is a broader due process right not to be prosecuted based on just malicious animus toward a defendant." —Mary [51:17]
Improper Appointment Challenge: Argues the interim U.S. attorney who signed the indictment (Lindsey Halligan) was unlawfully appointed, possibly dooming the entire prosecution (statute of limitations has since run).
Potential for Damaging Discovery: Success on vindictive prosecution could expose documenting communications between the White House and DOJ, as seen in other recent cases.

6. Voting Rights Act Section 2 – Supreme Court Oral Argument [55:11–59:50]

Section 2’s Purpose: Allows challenges to racist dilution of Black voting power (e.g., gerrymandering). Historically transformed representation in Southern states.
Supreme Court Skepticism: Arguing whether remedies for racial discrimination in voting should “have an end point.”

“One answer to that is when racism’s over... But it is remarkable at a time when you were seeing... outright racist comments... to have that discussion going on brings a surreal quality..." —Andrew [58:30]
Potential Scenarios: Court could weaken or eviscerate Section 2, fundamentally altering voting rights.
Chief Justice’s Framing: In the oral arguments, John Roberts suggests prior precedent (Alabama v. Milligan) may not govern, and constitutionality of Section 2 remains open.

Notable Quotes

"Above all, I ask those who are watching this case unfold to retain faith in our judicial system for just a little longer." —Judge Graber (Dissent, 9th Circuit), [22:12]
"You should not be putting classified information on Gmail and you should not be sending it to people who aren't authorized to get it." —Andrew [41:50]
"When you have an agency that is just violating that law, it doesn't make people feel really good for me to say the law requires probable cause." —Mary [38:42]
"There is a broader due process right not to be prosecuted based on just malicious animus toward a defendant." —Mary [51:17]
"It's not that John Bolton... should not be charged. It's that other people should have been charged. You can't single people out like this." —Andrew [44:32]
"That reminds me so much of the Nixon era... The idea that you're not viewing these people as constituents… to me that was so jarring." —Andrew [11:00]

Timestamps for Major Segments

[04:18] Jack Smith Interview Reflections
[07:56] Overview of National Guard Deployments & Protest Responses
[13:14] Statutory Legal Framework (9th Circuit Analysis)
[21:41] Judge Graber’s Dissent—Quote
[25:30] 7th Circuit and Supreme Court Update (Illinois Case)
[32:51] Washington Post Immigration Deal Scoop / Gang Members & Ethics
[39:11] Judicial Compliance Issues: Use of Force on Protesters
[41:50] John Bolton Indictment Analysis
[51:17] James Comey Vindictive Prosecution Motion
[55:11] Supreme Court Voting Rights Act Section 2 Hearing

Conclusion & Tone

The episode radiates intense concern for the rule of law, separation of powers, judicial independence, and the fragility of democratic norms under pressure. Both hosts urge listeners to remain vigilant, engaged, and hopeful “for just a little longer.”

For links to the Jack Smith interview and further legal analysis, see the episode show notes on MSNBC Premium.

Main Justice – "Hold On 'For Just a Little Longer'"
MSNBC | October 21, 2025 | Hosts: Andrew Weissmann & Mary McCord

Overview

Episode Structure

Opening & Episode Roadmap [01:10–04:18]
Jack Smith Interview Recap & Prosecutors Speaking Out [04:18–07:56]
Legal Developments: National Guard Deployments, ICE, and Protests
a. 9th Circuit (California/Portland) [07:56–23:38]
b. 7th Circuit & Supreme Court (Chicago/Illinois) [25:30–32:51]
Washington Post Scoop: Gang Member Extraditions and Implications [32:51–39:11]
Judicial Orders: Use of Force Against Protesters and Compliance Issues [39:11–40:05]
Political Prosecutions: Bolton, Comey, and Related Court Motions [41:50–55:08]
Supreme Court Arguments: Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act [55:11–59:50]
Closing Remarks

Key Topics & Insights

1. Jack Smith Interview & the Value of Direct Communication

Timing Matters: Andrew’s interview with former Special Counsel Jack Smith was notably topical amidst “political prosecutions.”
Transparency and Humanity: Andrew lauds Smith’s candor and authenticity, suggesting public exposure lets people "make a judgment about him… not on a caricature." [(04:54)]

"He struck me as like an Eagle Scout… so important for people to hear him himself and to see him and to make that judgment unfiltered through the noise." —Weissmann [06:21]
The Rare Prosecutor’s Voice: Mary notes seeing Smith outside the confines of a podium or court order is rare and valuable. Smith’s approach recalls Archibald Cox during Watergate.
Prosecutor Communication Debate: Andrew teases that Smith addressed the perennial question: Should prosecutors speak more openly to the public? (Details in linked interview.)

2. National Guard Deployments: Legal and Constitutional Fights

A. Rationale for Federalization & Recent Protests [07:56–10:48]

Federalization Justifications: Trump’s DOJ claims National Guard deployments to Portland, Chicago, et al., are needed to “protect ICE” from peaceful protests.
Historical Context: Recent “No Kings” protests drew ~7M participants, overwhelmingly peaceful, contrary to administration claims branding them "hate America rallies."

“This was not a Hate America rally. This was we love America and we want to preserve the best of America…” —Mary [10:21]
Dangers of Rhetoric: Andrew warns against normalizing claims that peaceful protest equals anti-Americanism:

"That reminds me so much of the Nixon era... The idea that you're not viewing these people as constituents… to me that was so jarring." —Weissmann [11:00]

B. 9th Circuit – Portland Case

Statutory Grounds: The Insurrection Act, invoked by Trump, allows call-up for insurrection, invasion, or if states are "unable" to maintain order with regular forces.
Judicial Disagreement: The 9th Circuit’s 2–1 ruling deferred to Presidential judgment ("great deference") about incapacity of local law enforcement, despite dissent (Judge Graber) warning against expanding executive emergency powers.

"The majority permits the President to invoke this emergency authority in a situation... barred divorce from an enumerated emergency." —Mary paraphrasing Judge Graber [14:16]
Key Dissent (Quote):

“We rule on facts, not on supposition or conjecture, and certainly not on fabrication or propaganda. I urge my colleagues on this court to act swiftly, to vacate the majority's order... Above all, I ask those who are watching this case unfold to retain faith in our judicial system for just a little longer.” —Judge Graber [22:12]
Congressional Complicity: The statutory ambiguity enables executive overreach; Congress could tighten limits.

C. 7th Circuit & Supreme Court – Chicago/Illinois Case [25:30–32:51]

Recent Rulings: The 7th Circuit let stand a TRO blocking actual deployment of federalized National Guard on Illinois streets, while permitting federalization itself (no street deployment).
Supreme Court Emergency Application: DOJ sought emergency stay from Justice Barrett, who declined immediate relief, expediting briefing instead—signaling seriousness and the high stakes.
Constitutional/Statutory Split: Argument hinges on whether deployment power is a “committed political question” (i.e., non-reviewable by courts) or fundamentally constrained by Congress, not just the President.
Fact-finding Issues: Supreme Court's willingness to override district court factual findings (on-the-ground realities) is concerning for due process.

3. Immigration Deals and Prosecutorial Integrity [32:51–39:11]

Washington Post Scoop: A reported deal (facilitated by Marco Rubio) to trade accused U.S.-based criminals, including MS-13 gang members—some of whom are confidential U.S. cooperators—back to El Salvador.
Compromised Ethics:

"To think that we would then sell [cooperators] out… that just violates the very core of your ethics as a prosecutor." —Mary [35:27]
Long-Term Consequences: Disincentivizing foreign cooperation with DOJ, undermining U.S. word and witness protection promises.
Interagency Blame-Shifting: DOJ is now pointing at Customs and Border Protection for aggressive protest tactics rather than ICE—unusual public intra-agency conflict.

4. Judicial Orders: Use of Force Against Protesters

Pattern of Noncompliance: Judge Ellis in Illinois has repeatedly found the government violating court orders on use of force and arrests against journalists and protesters.

"When you have an agency that is just violating that law, it doesn't make people feel really good for me to say the law requires probable cause." —Mary [38:42]
Broader Pattern: Echoes earlier discussions (with Ryan Goodman) about judges holding agencies in contempt for disregard of judicial authority.

5. Political Prosecutions: Bolton Indictment & Comey Motions [41:50–55:08]

A. John Bolton Indictment

Allegations: As national security advisor, Bolton is alleged to have transmitted classified information (notes from intel briefings and sensitive sources/methods) over personal email to unauthorized individuals, later found on hard drives.
Severity & Precedent:

“The fact that it's the National Security Advisor is not a mitigating fact… it is an exacerbating fact.” —Andrew [41:59]
Uneven Justice: "Two systems of justice" concern—other (pro-Trump) figures (e.g., Pete Hegseth, "Signalgate") not investigated for similar classified mishandling.

"It's not that John Bolton... should not be charged. It's that other people should have been charged. You can't single people out like this." —Andrew [44:32]

B. James Comey Motions

Vindictive/Selective Prosecution: Strongly pleads retaliation/malice from Trump administration, including First Amendment chilling.

"There is a broader due process right not to be prosecuted based on just malicious animus toward a defendant." —Mary [51:17]
Improper Appointment Challenge: Argues the interim U.S. attorney who signed the indictment (Lindsey Halligan) was unlawfully appointed, possibly dooming the entire prosecution (statute of limitations has since run).
Potential for Damaging Discovery: Success on vindictive prosecution could expose documenting communications between the White House and DOJ, as seen in other recent cases.

6. Voting Rights Act Section 2 – Supreme Court Oral Argument [55:11–59:50]

Section 2’s Purpose: Allows challenges to racist dilution of Black voting power (e.g., gerrymandering). Historically transformed representation in Southern states.
Supreme Court Skepticism: Arguing whether remedies for racial discrimination in voting should “have an end point.”

“One answer to that is when racism’s over... But it is remarkable at a time when you were seeing... outright racist comments... to have that discussion going on brings a surreal quality..." —Andrew [58:30]
Potential Scenarios: Court could weaken or eviscerate Section 2, fundamentally altering voting rights.
Chief Justice’s Framing: In the oral arguments, John Roberts suggests prior precedent (Alabama v. Milligan) may not govern, and constitutionality of Section 2 remains open.

Notable Quotes

"Above all, I ask those who are watching this case unfold to retain faith in our judicial system for just a little longer." —Judge Graber (Dissent, 9th Circuit), [22:12]
"You should not be putting classified information on Gmail and you should not be sending it to people who aren't authorized to get it." —Andrew [41:50]
"When you have an agency that is just violating that law, it doesn't make people feel really good for me to say the law requires probable cause." —Mary [38:42]
"There is a broader due process right not to be prosecuted based on just malicious animus toward a defendant." —Mary [51:17]
"It's not that John Bolton... should not be charged. It's that other people should have been charged. You can't single people out like this." —Andrew [44:32]
"That reminds me so much of the Nixon era... The idea that you're not viewing these people as constituents… to me that was so jarring." —Andrew [11:00]

Timestamps for Major Segments

[04:18] Jack Smith Interview Reflections
[07:56] Overview of National Guard Deployments & Protest Responses
[13:14] Statutory Legal Framework (9th Circuit Analysis)
[21:41] Judge Graber’s Dissent—Quote
[25:30] 7th Circuit and Supreme Court Update (Illinois Case)
[32:51] Washington Post Immigration Deal Scoop / Gang Members & Ethics
[39:11] Judicial Compliance Issues: Use of Force on Protesters
[41:50] John Bolton Indictment Analysis
[51:17] James Comey Vindictive Prosecution Motion
[55:11] Supreme Court Voting Rights Act Section 2 Hearing

Conclusion & Tone

For links to the Jack Smith interview and further legal analysis, see the episode show notes on MSNBC Premium.

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Summary

Overview

Episode Structure

Key Topics & Insights

1. Jack Smith Interview & the Value of Direct Communication

2. National Guard Deployments: Legal and Constitutional Fights

A. Rationale for Federalization & Recent Protests [07:56–10:48]

B. 9th Circuit – Portland Case

C. 7th Circuit & Supreme Court – Chicago/Illinois Case [25:30–32:51]

3. Immigration Deals and Prosecutorial Integrity [32:51–39:11]

4. Judicial Orders: Use of Force Against Protesters

5. Political Prosecutions: Bolton Indictment & Comey Motions [41:50–55:08]

A. John Bolton Indictment

B. James Comey Motions

6. Voting Rights Act Section 2 – Supreme Court Oral Argument [55:11–59:50]

Notable Quotes

Timestamps for Major Segments

Conclusion & Tone

Summary

Overview

Episode Structure

Key Topics & Insights

1. Jack Smith Interview & the Value of Direct Communication

2. National Guard Deployments: Legal and Constitutional Fights

A. Rationale for Federalization & Recent Protests [07:56–10:48]

B. 9th Circuit – Portland Case

C. 7th Circuit & Supreme Court – Chicago/Illinois Case [25:30–32:51]

3. Immigration Deals and Prosecutorial Integrity [32:51–39:11]

4. Judicial Orders: Use of Force Against Protesters

5. Political Prosecutions: Bolton Indictment & Comey Motions [41:50–55:08]

A. John Bolton Indictment

B. James Comey Motions

6. Voting Rights Act Section 2 – Supreme Court Oral Argument [55:11–59:50]

Notable Quotes

Timestamps for Major Segments

Conclusion & Tone