Main Justice — "It’s All Out Loud"

MSNBC | Hosts: Andrew Weissmann & Mary McCord | September 30, 2025

Overview of the Episode

This episode of Main Justice tackles the latest developments inside the Department of Justice (DOJ) now operating under President Trump’s new administration. Legal veterans Andrew Weissmann and Mary McCord bring forward urgent concerns about the crumbling boundaries between politics and law enforcement, the weaponization of prosecutions, and the rule of law under strain.

The central focus is the indictment of former FBI Director James Comey—a move widely viewed as political retribution—and the federal government’s deployment of military force in U.S. cities, namely Portland, under pretexts of "domestic terrorism." The hosts break down the legal irregularities, chilling precedents, and escalating attacks on constitutional norms, all under the blunt rhetoric ("it’s all out loud") of the current administration.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. "Break Glass" Moments & Rule of Law Crisis

[01:51 – 05:30]

• Mary reflects on the episode title "break glass moment," suggesting the emergency is already here:

  "I feel like we're either at another break glass moment or the glass is already broken."

• Andrew notes the normalization of behavior that once seemed unthinkable within DOJ and broader American society:

  "You keep on thinking there is going to be a bottom and there's not."

• Discussion of the vital distinction between due process (individual rights) and rule of law (systemic adherence to legal norms)—with the latter now under siege.
• Comparative context: Americans’ inexperience with authoritarianism may dull their sensitivity to these erosions, unlike populations in countries with histories of dictatorship.

2. James Comey Indictment: Legal Breakdown

[08:33 – 21:28]

• First, the charges: two counts—(1) making a false statement to Congress, (2) obstructing Congress due to the false statement.
  • Indictment is bare-bones, unusually vague about what the alleged falsehood actually was.
• Likely, this concerns Comey’s 2020 testimony about whether he authorized an "anonymous source" in media about an FBI investigation.
  • Speculation that "person one" is Hillary Clinton; "person three," Dan Richman.
• Unprecedented lack of detail and the fact that the grand jury barely met the "probable cause" threshold (14 out of 23):
  • Andrew:

    "What does it tell you that in the grand jury, all they were able to do at the low standard of probable cause is get 14 out of 23?"
    [19:21]

• Prosecutorial norms violated: DOJ’s standard is to only seek indictment where evidence is sufficient for conviction beyond reasonable doubt; here, "apparently purely political motivation."
• On the concept of authorized leaks ("leak" not always accurate—senior DOJ officials often have authority to give information that isn’t classified).

3. The Weaponization of DOJ for Political Retribution

[23:13 – 28:27]

• Mary: Entirely new level of presidential involvement in specific prosecutions:

  "The policy of no contact is so that the American people can feel like the Department of Justice is not just a tool of the White House... That is gone under this administration."
  [24:43]

• This direct, public interference is unprecedented—even comparing it to the Clinton/Lynch tarmac incident in 2016 to demonstrate shifting standards.

4. Vindictive Prosecution and Judicial Tactics

[27:39 – 30:55]

• Comey’s defense will likely raise motions to dismiss for "vindictive prosecution," selective or outrageous government conduct, bolstered by Trump’s own public statements:

  "The things that the President says every day almost about James Comey are exhibit number one."
  [27:51]

• The unusual prosecutorial process—White House counsel with no criminal experience presenting to the grand jury, resignations inside DOJ—adds to the sense of instability.

5. "Nobody Is Above The Law" as Pretext

[30:55 – 33:28]

• Hosts call out the administration’s invocation of "nobody is above the law":
  • Selective use of the phrase to justify prosecutions against adversaries, while ignoring or excusing allies’ misdeeds.
• The same logic is now being extended to justify militarization of cities under the guise of fighting "crime" or "terrorism"—but only in targeted (often Democratic-led) areas, not where crime statistics actually call for attention.

6. Portland: Federalization of National Guard & Legal Pretexts

[33:28 – 43:10]

• The legal basis for federalization hinges on three pretexts:
  1. Invasion (clearly absent)
  2. Rebellion (not met; protests described as "low energy and seated quietly"—[39:11])
  3. Inability of federal forces to enforce laws (not documented)
• Use of outdated, misleading media to justify action (2020 protest footage shown as "current" violence).
• Ongoing lawsuit by Portland and Oregon to block National Guard federalization advances argument that the factual predicates are not met and motives are clearly pretextual.

7. Posse Comitatus and Pretext in Law

[43:10 – 45:41]

• Discussion on the illegality of military involvement in domestic law enforcement except under specific rare exceptions (Posse Comitatus Act, Insurrection Act).
• The administration’s broad language in executive orders threatens to make military deployment in blue states a matter of political whim, not legal necessity.

8. Erosion of Separation of Powers and Supreme Court Actions

[53:35 – 57:40]

• Supreme Court now to hear the birthright citizenship case on merits, raising grave concerns about future legal standards.
• On the "shadow docket," the Court allows the administration to withhold $4B in foreign aid despite explicit Congressional appropriation—indicative of a shift in power toward the Executive.
  • Quoting Justice Kagan’s dissent:

    "That is just the price of living under a Constitution that gives Congress the power to make spending decisions... It cannot be heard to complain... that the laws clash with the President's differing view..."
    [56:25]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Andrew Weissmann:

  "You keep on thinking there is going to be a bottom and there's not."
  [02:05]

• Mary McCord:

  "Each one of these things is under attack." (on elements of rule of law)
  [04:14]

• Mary McCord:

  "The policy of no contact is so that the American people can feel like the Department of Justice is not just a tool of the White House... That is gone under this administration."
  [24:43]

• Andrew Weissmann:

  "This isn't just the quiet part out loud. There's no quiet part. It's all out loud."
  [53:26]

• Mary McCord (on Portland protests):

  "Protests continued with up to 60 people... described as, quote, low energy and seated quietly."
  [39:13]

• Justice Kagan (quoted):

  "That is just the price of living under a Constitution that gives Congress the power to make spending decisions... That inconsistency, in other words, is not a cognizable harm... It is merely a frustration any president must bear."
  [56:25]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:51–05:09 | Rule of Law vs. Due Process, and U.S. exceptionalism denial
• 08:33–21:24 | The Comey indictment: charges, legal weaknesses, grand jury concerns
• 23:13–28:27 | Political retribution and DOJ weaponization
• 27:39–30:55 | Anticipated legal maneuvers and real significance of transparency
• 30:55–33:28 | "Nobody is above the law": selective enforcement and double standards
• 33:28–43:10 | Portland and National Guard: Law, pretext, and court challenges
• 43:10–45:41 | Posse Comitatus Act and military in domestic law enforcement
• 53:35–57:40 | Supreme Court decisions and the separation of powers crisis

Tone and Closing Thoughts

The hosts maintain a tone of deep concern, seasoned with legal precision and candor. There is little attempt to reassure: the threats to constitutional order are real, present, and—importantly—being stated "all out loud." Both Weissmann and McCord urge listeners to understand that the current administration’s abandonment of norms, pursuit of political enemies, and disregard for separation of powers are not normal, American, or tolerable.

"What this entire episode has been about is that complete erosion [of] rule of law."

— Andrew Weissmann [57:40]

For listeners who haven't tuned in:
This is a must-listen episode for anyone wanting to understand not just momentary legal battles, but the existential crisis facing American democracy and rule of law in 2025, as analyzed by two career DOJ veterans witnessing the profound shift firsthand.

End of Summary