Mary McCord (2:40)

So first, I think the difference in the deposition that we got to watch and read the transcript of that was in private and today's public Hearing in terms of the political posturing. Right. The deposition testimony was not without some, you know, politics injected into the questions, for sure. But because there was no audience, because it wasn't live streamed, the questions did tend to be more just like, ask Jack Smith a question, let him answer. Ask Jack Smith another question, let him answer. Today, each representative got five minutes. A big portion of that five minutes was the representative just saying what they thought, right. About whether it was that they thought that Jack Smith had engaged in a political, you know, prosecution, or whether the representative thought Jack Smith had done the country the greatest service, the most tremendous service, you know, in the history of the Department of Justice. There was almost all of them. And I didn't get to listen to the entire thing. And I will also confess I had my earbuds in listening while I was also sort of trying to work. But, you know, there was a lot of the representatives using this opportunity to make their own political statements and sometimes really not hardly giving Jack Smith a chance to answer at all.

Andrew Weissmann (3:56)

Well, I think that is something that the Republicans learned from seeing, frankly. There was a video when I did the interview of him. The university I was at put that out on their YouTube channel. They got to experience what he was like in that private session. So one of the things the Republicans learned was they just really didn't let him answer.

Mary McCord (4:17)

It was going to be helpful to them, for the most part, to let him answer.

Andrew Weissmann (4:21)

Exactly. And so the Democrats did try and give him space to answer, for sure. There certainly was politicking on all sides. But I think the one place where you could sort of hear him and get a sense of the man was on the Democratic side because they knew it would be good for them and they could get a sense of his bona fides.

Mary McCord (4:42)

For him, there's a challenge because he is not just trying to come across as, but actually is basically a nonpartisan or was certainly in his role as special counsel. Right. And so he's not trying to support one position or the other. He's just trying to advocate for his team at the special counsel's office what they put together in terms of the evidence and make clear that they all firmly believed, as supported by the evidence and facts that were exhaustively recounted in his lengthy special counsel report, that that they had enough evidence beyond a reasonable doubt to prove each element of the crimes with which Donald Trump was charged. And so that necessarily means there's no political prosecution to this because it was so warranted by the facts. And he also made clear and wanted to make Clear that he would have done the same thing, regardless of whether the target was a Republican or a Democrat. I know people will say, well, I don't believe that. But I mean, if it's what he said, it's what he believes, he of course should say that. And I think he also made a great point. Two other really obviously he went through the evidence and that was always strong. But he made points in his opening statement to really stand up for his team who have been fired from their public service jobs. They've been vilified by the President's supporters, sometimes have had threats to themselves and their family. And he said, in my opinion, these people are the best of public servants in our country, owes them a debt of gratitude. And he made a pitch for the rule of law at the end of his opening statement that I thought was also important, where he talked about having worked overseas. He had seen how the rule of law can erode. And his fear was that we have seen the rule of law function in this country for so long that many of us have come to take it for granted. But the rule of law is not self executing. It depends on our collective commitment to apply it.

Andrew Weissmann (6:35)

Mary, you can tell that we have done this for a long time because I have up on my screen that exact point because one of the things that he was doing, obviously he totally agree with you, is that he defended his case, the facts. And you know, for you and me, we're so used to people at the Department of Justice, of course, bringing cases against Democrats and Republicans and also not bringing cases against Democrats or Republicans. You know, you're interested in prosecuting righteous cases, period. If there's a corrupt politician, that person should be prosecuted. I mean, period. It doesn't matter what party they're in. And so that just is so believable because we lived in that world for so long. And I think one of the things that Jack ended with, and if you don't mind, I'm going to channel my inner Rachel Maddow because I had the exact same thing, which is, I think he was sending a message of what it's going to take to reinstitute the rule of law and the challenges and that it's not cost free. And this is how his opening statement ended. Adherence to the rule of law is not a partisan concept or endeavor. After nearly 30 years of public service, including in international settings, I have seen how the rule of law can erode. My fear is that we have seen the rule of law function in this country for so long that many of Us have come to take it for granted. But the rule of law, as Mariya said, the rule of law is not self executing. It depends on our collective commitment to apply it. It requires dedicated service on behalf of others, especially when that service is difficult and comes with costs. Our willingness to pay those costs is what tests and defines our commitment to the rule of law and to this wonderful country. You know, that is something that Jack Smith and his team, the prosecutors, the agents, the analysts, the staff, lived. You could say that about the greatest generation, the people who, you know, carry arms and defend this country. There's so many people in so many ways who do this. With poll workers, there's so many people. And you could go on and on about the different ways people are devoted to public service. But at this time, what he is saying is you need to realize and understand what it's going to take to restore the rule of law. Because what was on display today was the antithesis of that.

Mary McCord (9:21)

Yeah, powerful words. No question about it. I mean, there's many various takeaways. The, you know, Republican Congress members spent a lot of time asking about the subpoena for toll records of members of Congress, which is an issue that Jack also got asked about in his deposition testimony and, you know, explained that he had followed the Department of Justice policy. And there's a lot of things we could digress to talk about and maybe someday we will.

Andrew Weissmann (9:47)

And digress is the right word because it really is sort of the shiny objects that gets away from the core, which was there was no fraud in the election, that what happened on January 6 was perpetrated by people who were given due process and convicted. I mean, they basically were doing what happens in criminal cases that you and I try, where defense lawyers rightly try and distract a jury.

Mary McCord (10:09)

Yeah. And I think part of this too is because there's a lot of confusion among non lawyers and people who just don't do criminal law that toll records might include content and they absolutely do not. Toll record is a record of the number dialed, the number that picked up, and the length of the call. That's it. But at any rate, so there was all of that kind of business. But I think one of the other things that happened during this hearing that Jack Smith, I'm not sure if he knew exactly that this had happened or not, but he was certainly asked in many ways about it is of course, the president put out a truth social post. And that truth social post not only called Jack Smith deranged, as he has done many, many times. I think one of the Congress members actually had counted that, like, there was something like 185 times that Trump had called Jack Smith deranged in a social media post. But he said, and I think here's the key here, he said, Jack Smith is a deranged animal who shouldn't be allowed to practice law. If he were a Republican, his license would be taken away from him and far worse. And here's the kicker. Hopefully the attorney general is looking at what he's done, including some of the crooked and corrupt witnesses that he was attempting to use in his case against me. The whole thing was a Democrat scam. A big price should be paid by them for what they've put our country through. This read, to my ear, sounded a lot like Pam, that direct message that he accidentally, I think, put out on True Social and when he directed her to get to work on prosecutions against James Comey and Letitia James and Adam Schiff, presidential enemies. The words are slightly different, but hopefully the attorney general is looking at what he's done. You don't ask the attorney general to look at what someone's done if you're not talking about some sort of enforcement action. And when Jack Smith was asked at some point whether he believes that he, I don't have the exact words in front of me that he's likely to be prosecuted or the Department of Justice is going to try to prosecute him, he said yes, because the president had ordered them to.

Andrew Weissmann (12:08)

Absolutely. And that, to me, ties into the thing that you and I latched onto when he said that the rule of law is something you have to be willing to live and breathe and fight for in the way that many men and women before us have died for here and across the globe. And to me, he was, you know, I think that it's really important for people to have role models. And I've always thought it was very important, knowing Jack Smith a bit, that people could see him for who he is and make their own judgment. And I think they got to do that today. They're now there's the opportunity for people to hear him, to see him, to judge his words, to judge his work. They have one part of his report to read. We will talk later about why he couldn't really talk about much of anything about the second part of his report about the Mar? A Lago case. Because Judge Cannon is still sitting on a motion to have that report unsealed.

Mary McCord (13:15)

No, she has ordered it unsealed in February, but Trump has now filed a motion.

Andrew Weissmann (13:20)

Right.

Mary McCord (13:21)

To keep it sealed even longer.

Andrew Weissmann (13:22)

So exactly. So we'll see. But I think it's been about a year since that's been pending, so we'll see what happens. And I think those are sort of the key takeaways, I think for people who are listening to this. What I would say is listen to at least some of it. It was pretty long day. I know it's a lot of time, but I would say gauge for yourself. Just play the first, you know, 10, 15 minutes, 30 minutes. Yes, there's a lot of, as Mary, you've said, there's a lot of sort of political theater that you have to get through. But try and get to the parts where he is actually speaking and get a sense of what you think of him. Mary and I are giving you our quick takes. We will be back next week with our regular episode. Mary, it's nice to see you. Same twice in one week.

Mary McCord (14:09)

That's right.

Andrew Weissmann (14:10)

And thanks everybody for listening yet again. You can subscribe to Ms. Now Premium on Apple Podcasts and you can get this show there and other msnow originals ad free. And you'll also get subscriber only bonus content. And if you sign up before the end of this month, you'll get three months free.

Mary McCord (14:30)

This podcast is produced by Vicki Virgolina. This episode is produced by Franny Kelly and Donny Holloway. Our associate producer is is Rana Shabazzi. Greg Devens II and Hazik bin Ahmad Fared are our audio engineers. Katie Lau is our senior manager of audio production and Aisha Turner is the executive producer for MSNow Audio.

Andrew Weissmann (14:52)

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