Summary of "Main Justice" Episode: Standing Upright in the Wind

Podcast: Main Justice
Hosts: Andrew Weissmann and Mary McCord
Release Date: March 11, 2025
Episode Title: Standing Upright in the Wind

Main Justice, a legal analysis podcast from MSNBC, features veteran lawyers Andrew Weissmann and Mary McCord as they dissect the latest developments within the Department of Justice under President Donald Trump’s administration. In the episode titled "Standing Upright in the Wind," released on March 11, 2025, the hosts explore a series of actions and legal challenges that signify a shift towards retribution and power consolidation, threatening the foundational principles of law and democracy.

Key Topics Covered

1. The Arrest of Mahmoud Khalil: A Case of Retribution

The episode begins with an in-depth analysis of the arrest of Mahmoud Khalil, a lawful permanent resident and Palestinian student at Columbia University. Khalil was detained pending deportation after participating in protests concerning conditions in Gaza. Weissmann highlights the lack of probable cause or criminal charges, emphasizing the constitutional implications:

Weissmann [06:51]: "There are some technical differences with respect to the government's ability to remove somebody... there's no allegation that he was at risk of flight or needed to be arrested immediately."

Mary McCord underscores the First Amendment protections afforded to Khalil, questioning whether his legal status should shield him from such actions:

McCord [12:44]: "If it's protected First Amendment activity, we all enjoy that...you don't get to just rid people in this country just because we don't like what they're saying."

2. Targeting Universities: Columbia and Georgetown Under Scrutiny

The hosts delve into the Trump administration’s targeted actions against academic institutions, specifically focusing on diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) programs. An executive order threatens to withhold federal funds from universities like Columbia and Georgetown unless they eliminate DEI from their curricula.

Mary McCord discusses Georgetown’s response, emphasizing their commitment to DEI as part of their Jesuit and Catholic mission:

Weissmann [25:42]: "As a Catholic and Jesuit institution, Georgetown University was founded on the principle that serious and sustained discourse among people of different faiths, cultures, and beliefs promotes intellectual, ethical, and spiritual understanding."

Jen Psaki adds that this threat extends beyond private universities, impacting academic freedom and institutional independence:

Psaki [28:25]: "The First Amendment guarantees that the government cannot direct what Georgetown and its faculty teach and how to teach it."

3. Attack on Defense Lawyers and Law Firms

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to President Trump’s executive order targeting law firms like Perkins Coie LLP. The administration accuses the firm of unethical practices, including collaboration with opposition research entities and discriminatory hiring practices.

Psaki [34:44]: "Perkins Coie is essentially just being blacklisted."

The order mandates the removal of government contracts with Perkins Coie, highlighting a broader strategy to undermine legal defense mechanisms and penalize firms based on their clientele and internal policies.

Weissmann [35:22]: "This is a threat...if you have tried to take measures to encourage the hiring of historically underrepresented minorities in the legal business. We're going to take a close look at you and you better stop that."

4. Judiciary and Separation of Powers: Eric Adams Case

Andrew Weissmann discusses the ongoing legal battle surrounding Eric Adams, the Mayor of New York, focusing on the government's motion to dismiss the criminal case against him. The dismissal without prejudice raises concerns about the administration’s intentions and the integrity of the judicial process.

Weissmann [31:53]: "It's just a perfect emblematic example of the President being transactional as opposed to principled."

The episode criticizes the government's lack of substantive evidence and the removal of career prosecutors, which undermines the rule of law and judicial independence.

5. Supreme Court Decisions and Executive Overreach

The hosts analyze recent Supreme Court decisions that impact executive authority, particularly concerning the freezing of foreign aid funds. The Court’s refusal to stay a District Court ruling exemplifies the judiciary’s role in checking executive power.

Weissmann [49:50]: "The President under his Article 2 authority has plenary... authority over the firing of executive branch officials."

They predict future Supreme Court involvement in cases challenging the President’s authority to dismiss heads of independent agencies, referencing the potential overruling of the Humphrey's Executor decision.

6. Upholding the Rule of Law: Lessons from Sir Thomas More

Concluding the episode, Weissmann and McCord draw parallels between contemporary challenges and Sir Thomas More’s steadfastness in A Man for All Seasons. This metaphor serves as a call to maintain integrity and adherence to the rule of law amidst political turbulence.

Weissmann [48:53]: "This country is planted thick with laws from coast to coast... Do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then?"

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Weissmann [12:44]: "If it's protected First Amendment activity, we all enjoy that...you don't get to just rid people in this country just because we don't like what they're saying."

• Psaki [25:43]: "As a Catholic and Jesuit institution, Georgetown University was founded on the principle that serious and sustained discourse among people of different faiths, cultures, and beliefs promotes intellectual, ethical, and spiritual understanding."

• Psaki [34:44]: "Perkins Coie is essentially just being blacklisted."

• Weissmann [49:50]: "The President under his Article 2 authority has plenary... authority over the firing of executive branch officials."

• Weissmann [48:53]: "This country is planted thick with laws from coast to coast... Do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then?"

Conclusions and Insights

In "Standing Upright in the Wind," Andrew Weissmann and Mary McCord present a compelling argument that the Trump administration’s actions represent a systematic attempt to undermine legal norms, constitutional protections, and institutional independence. From the targeted detention of a lawful permanent resident to executive orders penalizing academic programs and law firms, the episode underscores a broader strategy of retribution and power consolidation. The hosts advocate for vigilance and steadfastness in upholding the rule of law, drawing inspiration from historical figures like Sir Thomas More to navigate and counteract these challenges.

The episode serves as a crucial reminder of the importance of maintaining constitutional integrity and resisting authoritarian tendencies that threaten democratic foundations.