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Makes Sense - with Dr. JC Doornick
I Spent Years Fighting Porn. Now I’m a Top OnlyFans Creator with Heather Nielsen - E155
00:58:18
Former anti-porn advocate Heather Nielsen reveals her unexpected transition into becoming a top OnlyFans creator, challenging conventional ideas of ethics, identity, and survival in the digital economy. This episode explores what happens when personal values collide with financial reality—and how redefining them might be the key to true autonomy.
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- [00:00]
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Liberty Mutual Spokesperson's Friend
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Liberty Mutual Spokesperson's Friend
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Marvel Television Announcer
This episode is brought to you by Marvel Television's born Again Season 2, now streaming on Disney. Charlie Cox and Vincent D' Onofrio are back and Krysten Ritter makes her highly anticipated return as Jessica Jones in an all new season. As Mayor Fisk tightens his grip on New York City, he marks Daredevil as his top target. Matt Murdock fights from the shadows, hoping to bring down Fisk's corrupt empire and reclaim his city. Don't miss born Again Season 2, now streaming only on Disney.
- [00:59]
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- [01:29]
Heather Nielsen
But in some cases, yes, pornography can have an obviously very negative impact on a relationship in certain circumstances, but not across the board. So I started going from porn is the bad thing here to well, maybe it's not the porn itself.
- [01:43]
Dr. JC
Have you noticed that the world that we live in has been doing most of the thinking for you? That your beliefs, perceptions, reactions, fears and doubts have been shaped by unsolicited outside noise? How easy it's been for you to slip into that default sleep walking mode and label it as life and reality. Yeah, that ends here. Welcome to the make sense with Dr. JC podcast. This is your opportunity to start thinking for yourself, reclaim control, and step back into that role as the shot caller and dominant force of your own reality. It's when you change the way that you look at things that the things that you look at begin to change. So let's wake up, let's rise up, and let's make sense of why and how shift happens.
- [02:33]
Heather Nielsen
Makes sense.
- [02:36]
Dr. JC
Welcome back. I don't get to say this too often to people. Welcome back. God, out of like, 70, 80 guests, there's only been, like, four that have been back for a second time on this new show. So welcome back, Heather Nielsen to the now makes sense with Dr. J.C. podcast.
- [02:54]
Heather Nielsen
Yeah, I'm excited. I think this is fun because I've had such a kind of radical change in thinking, so I'm excited to. To kind of share those new thoughts, share kind of my new discoveries, and update.
- [03:06]
Dr. JC
This is the perfect place to do this. What I've always admired then and now, is that you've always operated at a state of unlaziness. You're not. You're not a lazy person. And what I mean by that is whether you're leading the Fight the Beast mission or as we're going to discuss now, building a presence on OnlyFans, you've always been intentional about it. Not everybody can say that. Always been intentional. And also never mindless about it. I always. On our show, we always say, welcome to the uprising of the sleepwalking masses. So I never looked at you as part of that. And you move through life with conviction. You know, we've had discussions about all this stuff that a lot of people might think is, like, super radical and all that stuff, but you've never come from a place of, like, not knowing why you're doing things, and I think that's really cool, and I think that'll be part of this discussion. And you're not somebody that's just drifting through what's called the, you know, the digital creator economy here. You're. You're someone that's navigating this whole movement here, but with justifiable intentions. I very much respect somebody that can sit in a conversation that has potential tension to it without hiding from it, you know, because that's the kind of stuff that I think people really need. I think people need real stuff. So, anyway, that's what I like about you, Heather.
- [04:27]
Heather Nielsen
Yeah, I really appreciate that. And I think that is. You really touched on something important to me. That's a core part of just my message in both the porn recovery and the now kind of OnlyFans face. Both ones are centered on intentionality with your sexuality. And that's a. That's really important to me because I see how it affects people when you're not intentional, when you get careless, when you're not thinking through, you know, what's the impact here?
- [04:53]
Dr. JC
Yeah. And there's a lot of that going on today. Just to put context, because this is a whole new audience, and I just want to make sure that people know a little bit about the history and when we first met. So take us back to the Fight the Beast, and I know that that's still happening, but take us back to the days where we first met with. With Fight the Beast. And what problem was it that you were trying to solve at that time if you could take us back there?
- [05:16]
Heather Nielsen
Yeah, so I grew up very religious, and for me, that kind of obviously dictated my sexuality. And it was never a negative thing. There was never any shame for me, but there was this kind of holiness and sacredness around sexuality that I think I felt very, you know, it's kind of that missionary mentality. I felt very called to share this very specific, rigid view of sexuality with people. And I could see the benefits, right, Because I think we all have biases. So I was seeing the benefits of, okay, well, I see that people who live a certain way, you know, they're virgins until they get married, and they usually stay married. And I see these benefits. And so my own biases say, okay, well, unless you do X, Y, Z, you're destined for unhappiness. And so with porn, I saw porn as definitely having a negative impact on people. It had negatively impacted my life. I didn't have a man in my life seven years ago because both of my kids. I've been divorced twice. Both my kids, dads had experience with that, and so I kind of villainized it because of that. The father and stepfather I grew up with. And so kind of, I'm just, you know, seeing the influence of this on the lives of the men around me. Different friends who had gone through divorces, people, you know, at church. Just my community, my friends. And I saw the huge impact that pornography had on men. And from my perspective, that meant, okay, all of this is bad. And I wanted to be a part of a change. I'm very, like you said in the beginning, kind of very motivated to make a difference and have a positive impact. And so I set out to really just help men overcome porn addiction from the perspective of porn is bad. Let's help people quit back then.
- [06:57]
Dr. JC
I just want to go back then because I remember our conversation. I went back and I listened and watched our. Our last episode. And I just want to, for the record, say you haven't changed.
- [07:07]
Lowe's Home Care Plus Announcer
You're this.
- [07:08]
Dr. JC
You're still. Still the same person, just different mission, perhaps. Different explanation. When you look at the dynamics of a marriage, you know, I'm a married man. Back then, it just appears that you were just looking at porn as. As like a major, major problem that a lot of relationships had. So are you saying that you now have the ability to look back and see that you were maybe jaded or tainted because of your own relationship and also the way that you were brought up?
- [07:38]
Heather Nielsen
I don't know that it was so much jaded because of my relationship. I studied marriage and family science in college. And so, again, going to a Christian private university, my views were probably a little biased. And so I saw, you know, mostly focused on the statistics of marriages where, you know, one partner watches pornography, you're more likely to get divorced. And those statistics do have weight. But I was focusing on the statistics that supported my opinion. And as I stepped back over time and I started, you know, really just reading more and more research about five years in, I. I go, I can't keep denying the research. I can't keep calling all of the research a conspiracy. Well, I do still believe in some cases, and we'll talk about what the exceptions are. But in some cases, yes, pornography can have an obviously very negative impact on a relationship in certain circumstances, but not across the board. So I started going from porn is the bad thing here to, well, maybe it's not the porn itself, because I've talked to thousands of people. I mean, there are plenty of successful, famous examples of this, as well as everyday couples. I have friends that watch pornography together. They have fantastic loving marriages. We get to this point, or where one partner does it and the other doesn't, and they still have a loving, happy marriage. So I started going, okay, if it's not a problem across the board, we can't just keep villainizing the thing because it's not a universal problem. There's factors here that influence whether or not it's a problem. Kind of like alcohol. Like, alcohol is not bad for everybody, but for some people, it's really, really dangerous.
- [09:14]
Dr. JC
The analogy I was just drawing in my head is there are a lot of families out there that have belief systems about what they eat. Like, there are certain people that don't eat meat, for instance, and children are brought up that way. And then there's that day that they're hanging out with their friends and they have a burger and they're like, wait a second. This tastes pretty good. This is not what I was told. You know, there's so many different elements. But I think my takeaway from that is I talk a lot about, in my book, the programming that we receive when we're young from Our mother, father, teacher, preacher. That's why I always allow people to have their own opinion, because I know how opinions are formed. You know, if I go back to when I first met you, we were pretty much aligned. But two people are never perfectly aligned. But if you have the sense about you to recognize that people are always just projecting some sort of a reflection of how they were raised and stuff like that. And it's kind of how we parent kids too. Like, kids say crazy stuff sometimes and we just say like, okay, well, let's let you have a little bit more life one day and maybe you'll come up with something. So, yeah, what I'm curious to know because we've had conversations and I know that you have a perspective about it, but fast forward, explain to us a little bit about that moment, because from what I understand, you know, you didn't just, you know, entertain the idea. You became like one of the top producers with this platform, only fans. So, I mean, like, that's. That's what's so crazy about it is like, you actually found a lot of success. But what was the first moment when that possibility first entered your mind? Like, I'd love to know a little bit about that. That's a big jump, you know, so you probably kind of moved into it somewhat slowly. But what was that first moment when the possibility entered your mind and what was the primary found that you made your decision?
- [11:01]
Heather Nielsen
Okay, so this is really interesting, and if I'm going to be a hundred percent honest with you, there were three primary factors, okay? And they're all compartmentalized into their own space. The first one is, we won't get into this one too much here. But there were personal factors. There was some relationship pain, some friend did something, some. Some stuff that happened to me where I was like, screw it, I don't care. I don't care. I had six and a half years of abstinence and then I was like, forget this. Like, I just. I had a personal breakdown a little bit. But then there was also there was this. Again, we won't go into this one too deeply either, but there was this moment of, you know, I had been working my absolute butt off for five years, building internationally reaching business in porn recovery. As a woman, as a really leader in the space. Before everyone and their brother had a porn recovery organization, people were telling me, like, I've never even heard of this before. When I started it on TikTok, there was maybe one or two other people doing it. Now it's much more common, but it Was extremely rare, extremely unusual. And I was really pushing that space forward. But I had been working so hard that there was this moment of one day going, what am I doing to my kids? I'm raising future porn addicts. If I'm ignoring my boys and yelling at them, telling them to get out of my room because I'm working my butt off trying to, you know, build a business that is taking more from me than it's giving. You know, it's like I'm. I've become a slave to helping other people with their problems while ignoring my kids. So people are like, oh, you just did it for the money. And I'm like, I did it to be with my family more. And there was this I. I got very deep into like Greek philosophy with that, where I said, you know what? The Odyssey really kind of shaped my thinking. And I started thinking about how Odysseus moves through things. And there's a quote from a song, a musical that was written about the Odysse epic. And he says, ruthlessness is mercy upon ourselves. And I kind of started. It really got into my head and I was like, yeah, like, why am I trying to save people while hurting my kids? So there was kind of this financial aspect of like, I want to be a stay at home mom. Onlyfans is easier than recovery. So there is that side. We'll set that aside. The third element, I think is really, really important. And it's. I started getting really worn down by realizing that I was teaching pseudoscience. And that became very heavy to the point where I was like, it was probably a six month phase where I was like, I think I'm lying to people. I think I'm part of the problem. A couple examples of that is I realized we can go into each of these in depth if you want. But I realized that guilt and shame is literally what causes addiction. People who, when we have control groups within pornography for people who believe it's okay versus people who were taught that it's wrong. The people who believe it's okay typically don't have any negative symptoms of addiction, Whereas only the people who believe it's wrong have symptoms of addiction. An atheist can quit porn faster than somebody who's deeply religious. So little things like that I just started seeing. Wait, like by telling people on TikTok they have a porn addiction and porn addiction is bad and they're horrible people, they go home and binge when they hear that stuff. And so I never imagined I had two separate accounts reach like top 0.25%. So like top zero, like quarter percent. Two separate accounts. So I don't know what that translates to, but I had unbelievable growth. I never imagined that to happen. I originally thought it would be haha. I'm just gonna put. Not haha, but like, I'm just gonna post a few pictures myself to say I'm okay with my body, I'm okay with nudity, essentially. I'm not scared of you shouldn't be either. And then it spread like wildfire, changed my whole life. And I was like, whoops, that was unexpected.
- [15:03]
Dr. JC
What was that like? I mean, that was a big decision. And. And it sounds to me like there's a couple of events that happened that you didn't really, really go into. But it sounded to me like part of it was you kind of coming out of your shell. Perhaps maybe you dated somebody or something and you had been this way for so long, and maybe you just felt like. But even before OnlyFans, you kind of felt like, wait a second, I'm going to allow myself to have a little bit of fun or allow myself to. To express myself. Is that safe to say that that's kind of what happened in those areas?
- [15:39]
Heather Nielsen
I don't know if it was. I'll be honest. There was. I had, you know, Twitter joked about this, but I had a little bit of villain energy going into that. It was more. I don't want to say it was revenge, but there was a little. If I'm honest, I'm human. You know, there was. There was this little bit of, I've been hurt and I don't want relationships anymore. And that was kind of my way of releasing the pain of what I had been through. And so it worked. You know, I felt much better after that, but it was more of like a releasing my pain. But anyway, again, that was like a secondary aspect on the business side. I took more than. Again, I think I took about six months of thinking through that decision, and then I had a solid month where I said, okay, I want to go this direction, but I'm going to spend another four weeks talking to my coach, talking to my friends, talking to the people in my life that I go to for mentoring and making sure that this isn't impulsive, this isn't reckless, that this is really. Because I truly believe that, that sexuality should not be like, we can't be shaming people for what they want and having so much compassion. Compassion was a huge part of it. You know, I had just talked to probably, I don't know, hundreds, if not Thousands of men who shared their deepest, darkest secrets with me, who cried on the phone about the shame that they felt. The. And that just really started breaking my heart where I was like, why do so many men feel so ashamed of, like, we've shamed men to believe that all lust is just horribly. I did. I, I wrote plenty of articles, made plenty of videos on how like, lust is bad. And then, then I just kind of realized that, I don't know, I didn't want to, I didn't want to be like that anymore. I didn't want to be shaming men for something that's biologically natural.
- [17:28]
Dr. JC
Yeah, it's so fascinating, you know, because right now, just knowing humans in general, there's just all these bifurcations and fractions of people that are on different sides of this topic. And like, people that like, used to be like, oh, yes, Heather, go. And now they're like, I hate her now. And then there's also people that are saying, like, well, welcome to the real world. You know, we're happy to have you. So I love that. And you know, just from my perspective, life is something that's meant to be lived and, you know, you're living it and you were, you were living in a bubble before, whether you were on either side. You know, there's people that have never experienced the benefits of religion and, and that concept, you know, they're on the other side and they've just like have a totally different approach to it.
- [18:15]
Heather Nielsen
Somebody commented yesterday on something I posted and they were like, you know, or maybe they sent me a dm. They said something like, oh, you know, in a, in a few more months, you're just going to go back to teaching, you know, porn recovery like everyone else does when they leave the industry. And I, I just kind of to that effect. I think it's so funny. Yes. We move in and out of these different ways of thinking. You know, sometimes people will. I know people who have, you know, grown up atheist, moved into religion, had these aha moments and then moved out of religion again and had new aha moments. So it's like we flow through these different concepts, different ways of being, different ways of seeing the world. And I think that's a beautiful process. I'm not rigid with myself and I encourage people to continue exploring that and be open minded.
- [18:59]
Dr. JC
How would you answer this question? Coming from where you're at right now, do you kind of see this whole thing as a contradiction or more of like an evolution? How would you answer that?
- [19:11]
Heather Nielsen
Yeah, definitely evolution for Me, a huge part of this was also. And I talk about this a lot on my YouTube channel, I go into detail of exactly why I made this decision because I had a lot of people to. To explain that too. And a lot of it had to do with my transition to more of a kind of. More of like maybe transcendentalism thinking as opposed to my religious background, being more open minded, that we each kind of discover our own truth in a way, and that that's okay, and then that's healthy. And that what's healthy for one person may not necessarily be healthy for another. And so just. Well, I'll tell you one thing. So many things I've been taught were the end of the world. And without going into tmi, coming out of my six and a half years of abstinence, kind of like your burger analogy, I realized, holy crap, like, I was so sick. And it was abstinence that was making me sick. Like, when I broke that, I was like, wow, my body actually physically needs this. I had problems with my menstrual cycle. That went away immediately. For, you know, seven years I had been struggling, almost seven years I've been struggling with those issues. And then they just went away. And I was like, I just realized, okay, well, maybe what I've been taught through religion, through, you know, these rigid ideas and concepts of what sexuality should be, right, that should word everyone else telling me what I should do, instantly I went, wait, that was wrong though. That was wrong. I was sick because of doing things the way I should do them.
- [20:44]
Dr. JC
And it sounds like you kind of recognize that you were kind of doing that to other people as well. You said before you didn't want to be part of that.
- [20:51]
Heather Nielsen
In my own data and statistics, I saw men getting more depressed and their body becoming in some cases weaker. Not in everyone. Some men experienced strength from abstinence. Some men experienced depression and hormone imbalance. And so I realized, wait a second, this is not a one size fits all. We can't just blanket tell people how to be because that doesn't work.
- [21:14]
Dr. JC
Yeah, it's fascinating. I mean, there's so. There's so many conversations that we could go off on there. But it sounds to me like part of this was that you had to almost allow or reconcile something inside of yourself before dipping into this. You took that six months. Sounds like you consulted with people that knew you well. So it wasn't something you just blindly did. It turned out to be a great thing, both financially, but also opened you up. But what was it that I Guess what demon inside of you did you have to kind of exercise or what was it that you had to kind of like reconcile inside of you to be. To be able to do it? Because there's also the other aspect of, like, even if you didn't have this whole history with Fight the Beast and that whole story, that's potentially a very scary thing to do to, you know, let who's. Who knows who's watching. So how did you go through that process, like to jump into that pool?
- [22:07]
Heather Nielsen
Yeah, a couple side points on that. First of all, one thing that definitely helped it not be scary was the fact that there were already lots of deep fakes of me. People were already using my content. There was already like, oh, no, what if your kids see something? Well, guess what? AI was already making stuff of me. So I was like, fine, if other people are going to make stuff anyway, might as well. Which is a really word. That's a whole other topic. Really weird world we live in. But it wasn't necessarily that I was working through a demon as much as it was. I was exhausted by it. So I had been, you know, think about just my name, Fight the Beast. Because I was thinking about, how can I just translate this company, how can I evolve the company without going, you know, into the deep end? And I couldn't. There was no way for me to edit my book. I would have to just rewrite the entire thing. I'd have to change the name, moving more towards transcendentalism. It's almost kind of incorporated my beliefs, kind of shifted more to kind of just inner peace, maybe more Eastern religion, I don't know. But I just realized I don't want to fight anything anymore.
- [23:15]
Dr. JC
Right.
- [23:15]
Heather Nielsen
And so even just the concept of fighting, I had been in high masculine energy, Fight the Beast, super masculine logo, super masculine brand. I'd helped men in over 30 countries. Like, this is a very masculine domain. And I just got to the point where I just said, I'm exhausted of trying to be a man, trying to compete, not compete with men, but, like, I just couldn't do this masculine fight space anymore. And I just kind of stepped. Part of that was through relationships, stepped into my own feminine and said, look, I. I don't. I don't want to be fighting anyone. I don't want to be opposed to anyone. I don't want to be. I don't know. And I just, I developed more love and respect, not only for my clients. So I think in the beginning it was like, you watch porn, gross. Whereas over the course of five years, I was like, no, these people are incredible normal people. Like, they're. They're happy people. They're loving people. These are good guys that I'm working with. And I just developed more love and respect for them. More love and respect for girls in the industry, where I like, no, they're not. They're not trashy, horrible people. Like, they have a beautiful story, and I just now have just so much love and respect for everybody that I couldn't fight anything anymore.
- [24:23]
Dr. JC
It's almost like the beast changed shapes. It's like the beast was the fight now. You know, it's like you thought. You thought you were attacking. We're always fighting against something, but sometimes just the fight is to just stop the fight. So I want to get a little bit into the industry because, you know, we've got people that are, like, very knowledgeable about it, and then there's people that are just completely on the other side. Maybe the side that you used to be in that are, for whatever reason, listening to this episode right now. I always find it interesting. You know, my wife is a sex therapist, and as you can imagine, she's got a pretty interesting vocabulary and experience in. In the world. You know, I mean, there's kink and all kinds of stuff. And we used to do this podcast together, and we always found it interesting when we would look at our metrics, how our biggest audience was, like, in the Bible Belt, you know what I mean? Like, there was just so many people that were probably, like, in their closets listening to that podcast. I want to talk a little bit about, like, the ethics behind monetization, but just to get some terminology down. When people say porn and think of only fans, I mean, who knows what they think about? But do you feel comfortable explaining a little bit about, like, what somebody would see if they were at in on your site? Because, I mean, I know that there's a wide variety of different things, like, do you have, like, lines that you won't step across and that kind of thing.
- [25:46]
Heather Nielsen
Well, to kind of talk about OnlyFans as a whole, for a lot of people haven't been on the site. I think, as a whole, the objective of OnlyFans, compared to other sites like Pornhub, is a lot more relational. So people do kind of expect a relationship with the creators. They want more of that personal contact. There's messaging. It's much more of a. Like, you're connecting with this person. Not exactly one on one, but there's more of that feel. It's not a Browsing, scrolling website. It's a messaging.
- [26:16]
Dr. JC
Right.
- [26:17]
Heather Nielsen
Website, more so. And yes, there's a very wide range of what people do. It's also a little bit cleaner of a site. There's a lot of limitations of what can and can't be posted. For me, when I decided to do that, I had two main objectives. I wanted to create content that had never been created before. And judging by. I don't watch any kind of porn, so I don't even really know what's out there. And I. I've held true to that. I still have not watched any other pornography or content. I've just kind of created my own based on my own creativity.
- [26:49]
Dr. JC
That's pretty impressive to hear because I would think that even just from the creative aspect, you would want to know what's going on. So you still have never watched porn?
- [26:58]
Heather Nielsen
Like, I watched one video of one girl, right? That's it. And she was. It was just a solo thing. And I really like the girl on social media, so I was like, all right, I'll just. I'll. I'll do.
- [27:07]
Dr. JC
Yeah. I mean, you had to kind of learn a little bit, you know, a little bit.
- [27:11]
Heather Nielsen
But, yeah, I haven't. I haven't watched any kind of videos or anything. I don't know. I feel like it kills my own thing. Like, I don't want to be competing with other people. My stuff focuses on two things. First of all, I really wanted to do something really creative. I've put a lot of artistic effort into it. Very, very, like, complex photo shoots and scenes in a lot of my work. And then the other thing is, I wanted to create something that, to me, displayed the love connection and intimacy in my own version of sexuality. So many creators, it's very, you know, there's. There's the humiliation, and I'm not shaming any of those kinks. Anyone can watch whatever they want and they can like it. But so much of this was very, like, almost predatory. I see a lot of pornography is very predatory towards clients. And I just wanted people to feel loved and respected. And I think a lot of the language that I use before, after videos is I. I've done, like, a lot of affirmation videos. I've done a lot of content, you know, for me, focusing on breath work, focusing on kind of more of a relaxation than a. Oh, look at me doing this, you know, thing. Yeah, I don't know. It's just a different tone and a different. And I think I've been pretty proud of the way, at least early on how I created that.
- [28:28]
Dr. JC
I mean, that's pretty creative. So let's talk about, like this, this idea of ethical monetization because you're making money from this and there's someone out there saying that you're a home wrecker and all of that stuff, you know. And you know what? I think you did a good job of explaining the whole guilt thing. And, and if, if somebody is doing anything and it's wrecking their home, it's not necessarily the thing that they're doing. It's probably some other aspects. But what does it mean when we say ethical monetization in that industry? Meaning how do you justify to somebody that's listening, making money off of doing what you're doing?
- [29:09]
Heather Nielsen
Yeah. So for me, I care too much about the ethics to the point where I have a lot of fans that get mad at me because they want me to participate in this, these very kinky conversations. A lot of people, like, financial domination will come out and they'll be like, can you ask me to send you money? And I'm like, no, but I can be Dave Ramsey and tell you you need to be saving it. Like, I told I don't waver from my values for the sake of money. And so, so many of my fans are like, please just ask me for money. Like, I, I have people DMing me that request all the time and they get, they get mad because I won't do it. I'm like, I am not here. I'm like, you can send something if you would like, you know, Like, I'm not gonna say no, but I just don't have that vibe. I don't like that. As far as monetization for me, as I, I have looked at some other accounts, didn't watch their stuff, but I've seen kind of how they do it. The number one grossing person on only fans. I even forgot her name. Everyone knows who she is. Her DMs are so predatory. It's every five minutes all day long. Like, why don't you like me? Why aren't you buying new content? I sent you something five minutes ago. She is, you know, a team of who knows how many people plus AI robots, constantly doing this stuff all day long. It's like, please send me money. I want you. I can't send you pics unless you tip a hundred dollars right now. It's like so emotionally like guilt tripping and stuff. And I just decided early on I am not participating in that. If somebody wants to buy my art, cool. If somebody, you know, feel so inclined to, you know, they feel like what I'm offering is helping them feel at peace with themselves. It's bringing them relaxation. It's helping them to meditate at the end of the day. Cool, then they can do that. But I'm not gonna guilt trip and shame people and like, hustle and pimp myself. That, to me, has always been really important.
- [31:00]
Dr. JC
I'm just curious to. I can hear in your voice, and I've gotten to know you well enough that. That you're telling the truth, you know?
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- [32:07]
Mackenzie
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Heather Nielsen
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- [33:37]
Dr. JC
In the industry of sales, there's. There's something called the no sale sale. Like when you don't do something. In your experience, when people ask you to do something and you don't, what is the outcome that you typically see happen from that?
- [33:50]
Heather Nielsen
Okay, so you are. You're tapping into. Look again. I'm just gonna be honest with you. There was a side of me. So, you know, I. I did onlyfans for. I'll just tell you guys the numbers just for fun. So I did it for three months, and I made about $90,000 in those three months. And then I was like, well, it was like two months. And then I was like, whoa. That was. Hold on. That was like. Like two years worth of money with what I was doing in Fight the Beast. So then I was like, hold on. I said that if I ever made this kind of money, I was just gonna go back to being a mom. So then I took the next three months off, and I just traveled with my kids, and I was just mom. Like, I used that to keep my promises to my kids of, like, we're gonna go on some trips. Like, I took them on a cruise. I took them to Disney. I was like, I'm gonna love you guys to death now because now I have the freedom to, right? So there's this, like, roller coaster of my account where I was, like, super active, took a hiatus. Now I'm doing it a little bit more. I'm trying to, like, have kind of a routine with it. But I remember there, in the beginning, it was an absolute whirlwind of things that I was learning about human psychology, right? It just. I mean, every day my adrenaline was so over the top because there was kind of this effect where I realized that by being different, my account grew faster than I ever imagined. And the point was to not do any of those things and to not get big. And then somehow there was this, like, by being authentic, by being kind, I kind of created, like, this monster unintentionally. So, yes, I learned about the no sell sale. And there was a whole psychology behind that that I didn't tap into intentionally. I have to clarify. It was interesting and powerful. But there was another thing that I learned. I can't tell you how many DMS I received on only fans of people saying that I radically changed and healed their sexuality. I've had people cry to me and be like, thank you so much for what you've done here. I've been following you for years. But it wasn't until I watched X video that I was actually able to heal and realize that I don't need porn anymore. And that was incredibly powerful. And that was my goal. My hypothesis before doing this, in that phase where I'm thinking through, is this right, is this wrong? Is this like the most villainous thing that's ever been done in the history of the world? You know, I KN the repercussions of this. I didn't expect it to go so viral. But in that process, I had a hypothesis that I could heal people faster by meeting them where they're at, accepting them for who they are, loving them anyway, and helping them see the path forward. And I wasn't wrong in that. For a huge segment of people, that is truly what they needed.
- [36:33]
Dr. JC
Wow. So I don't even know how to ask this question. I'll ask it in two parts. What are the things that you refuse to do? Like, what's the line you won't cross crossed? And do you even need to cross that line? Because it sounds like there's a dynamic where people are trying to, like, see if they can control you and you're. You're not allowing it. And there's like a little bit of a game. And to a certain degree, I would love to know if that's a little bit fun for you as well from a human psychological thing. Not. Not messing with people, but it's probably pretty interesting to see that push and pull. So. So what lines will you not cross in the industry? Because I would assume people ask you to do all sorts of weird things. And how do you see that manifesting in. In your own mental health with that whole aspect?
- [37:20]
Heather Nielsen
Yeah, it's funny, the amount of. The amount of hate. I don't know if the hate that I was getting in Fight the Beast or the hate that I've gotten from only fans is greater because people are going to complain no matter what you do. And I do have a lot of people that consider me to just be the most frustrating creator on the face of the planet because I do have, like, like my lane and. And my boundaries. Maybe part of this process. I've been doing it for seven months. I've had, without sharing too many personal details, my own kind of relationship dynamics in my personal life, one of which I quit during that three months. I quit for a partner. And I was like, okay, you know what? If we're gonna. If we're gonna be talking, I'm not doing any. Only fans. So I didn't log on for three months and then kind of exploring a new relationship. I'm trying to figure out how that works for me. I just want to be true to myself and how I feel. I think the reason why so many women in the industry who leave the industry have huge mental health issues. Afterwards, we. We talk about how bad it is for women. I think that's because they break their own boundaries, their own conscience. And I'm very determined to not do that. So for me, I'm emotionally, internally, psychologically 100, monogamous as a person. And so for me, when I create art, when I. When I see kind of the stuff that I do on there, I see it more as art. It's very unpersonal. I would say, like, I'm not exchanging energy with anybody. I might be displaying my energy, but I'm not exchanging energy. So I won't do anything, live with an individual. I won't. Sometimes I'll do acting for, like, custom videos or things, but for the most part, if it's not. If it's not something that I feel good about, I just say no, you know? And I. I always encourage people send me a request, and if I want to do it or if I'm in the mood to do it, or if I think I can act authentically, you know, maybe it's not my kink, but if I think I can do it authentically, maybe I'll consider it. But I just have a really firm boundary there, and I just kind of, like, take inventory and check my heart. I'm like, will I be happy that I did this? Will I feel guilty about it? Not guilty, like, in a shame way, but just like. Well, I feel. I don't know. Is it my thing? If it's not my thing, I don't want to do it. I don't want to lose energy to being fake. So I just kind of play it by ear. And it might evolve over time. So I'm not saying, like, I will never xyz. Maybe I will. I also said I would never make porn, so here we are. But. So maybe over time, that could change. But right now, I just take it day by day, and I'm like, okay, does this. This feel good? Is this, like, authentic energy? To me.
- [39:57]
Dr. JC
What's the most amount of money somebody's ever offered you? Because I would assume there's some very wealthy people out there that want to control somebody with money. What's the most amount of money that somebody ever offered to you that you said no to?
- [40:10]
Heather Nielsen
Hmm. That's a good question. I. I feel like I regularly get. Maybe I didn't believe them. Maybe I blew them off because I didn't believe them. I think I have received requests for several thousand dollars at a time, and I was just like. Like, I probably just blew them off. I don't know if they were serious, because for me, there is kind of. Again, part of me is like, you should not be spending that money. I spent five years of the life coach, and, you know, you shouldn't be doing that.
- [40:36]
Dr. JC
Do you start teaching them, like, how to invest their money instead of spend it with you?
- [40:41]
Heather Nielsen
I have.
- [40:42]
Dr. JC
That's funny.
- [40:43]
Heather Nielsen
A little bit. A little bit. If people are okay with that, I will be like, you want me to. I. I've joked with people. I was like. Like, they're like, hey, can you role play fandom? And I'm like, I can role play Dave Ramsey if that's. If that turns you on, I can tell you I can be a dominatrix if Dave Ramsey turns you on.
- [41:01]
Dr. JC
You said something about hate. You're getting hate mail, and. And people are hating on you over here and over there. So how do you respond to people that knew you and followed you back when. Because you started a very big movement and, you know, say something like, you became the thing that you fought, like, you know, and say, how dare you? Or something like that. How do you respond to that?
- [41:24]
Heather Nielsen
I have had people pay me 200 an hour to yell at me, which is hilarious.
- [41:29]
Dr. JC
Wow.
- [41:29]
Heather Nielsen
People have booked a 200 consultation call with me and just vented the whole time, multiple times. Some of them call back to do it a second time. So I feel bad that I triggered them so badly. What was so interesting is in the beginning, because I still had active coaching clients, and, you know, I had to explain to everyone, here's what I'm doing. Some of those people were deeply hurt, like, to the point, panic attacks. And I felt really bad. But what was interesting is the more we talked it through, the more at peace they became with themselves and their sexuality and with me. And I had several people go, I'm sorry, I was judging you. I'm sorry for literally sometimes yelling at me. They're like, I'm sorry for the way I talk to you. I see now, like, I understand now why you did what you did. I understand now how it's working. Maybe I don't agree, maybe I wouldn't do it with myself, but, like, I understand now. And I think for a lot of people, some of them were like, really blew up. And then they saw what kind of content I was posting and they were like, oh, this isn't what I expected. This is still you, you know, this isn't. You didn't like. I think people were worried that I would, like, sell my soul and become the thing that they hate most. But then they saw something new, something different, something with more soul in it, and they were like, oh, maybe this isn't. I had a lot of people come my way. As far as the home wrecker comments, I had a whole plan to create another company after OnlyFans to work specifically with women. There are so many things that women need to understand about their husband's sexuality. I had, like, I had. I don't know what exactly my success rate was with porn recovery clients, but I had a hundred percent success rate with marriages. And marriages was really where my heart was at keeping marriages together. But so often I saw so much sexual abuse towards the husband from the woman, whether it was from withholding or shaming or. And I'm guilty of that. Like, I'm not going to say that I didn't do that. In my Christian wife era, there's so much that I think women need to know about sexuality, about pornography, that they need to not fear it, that they need to not be insecure because of it, that they need to understand, you know, it's. I had so many husbands who would come to me on a coaching call and they would say things like, my wife is the most beautiful woman in the world. I love her, I care about her. And. And they'd be authentic with me and they would love their wives so much. But because of different challenges, maybe she wasn't willing to connect sexually. She wasn't willing to have these conversations with him. She was withholding. He's like, I'm doing this to physically get off because I have. Have pain in my bulbs if I don't release, you know, but he's like, it's not because I don't love my wife. So there's. Women just don't understand men's sexuality. And again, I think, you know, yeah, I think that's just projecting. It's like scapegoat point, blame on somebody else, not fix your marriage or. There's a lot going on there.
- [44:23]
Dr. JC
A lot going on there. I'm a bit naive when it comes to only fans, you know, but it, it sounds to me like there's this label that people have on it that assumes that, you know, you guys are like running around with animals or something like that. But I think that you're, you're shedding light that, you know, I mean, you've, I've heard you use the word like you've referred to it as art and, and adding affirmations to it stuff. I think a lot of people are going to listen to this and still maybe not be okay with it and still maybe have a problem, but I think that they're going to be a little bit more enlightened that it's maybe not always what they think. For the person that still sees you as just the Fight the Beast because there, there's going to be some people that didn't even know this is going to be like, oh my God, what? It's just, you're either happening upon it, you know, because I always check back on my guests and I went to your Fight the Beast profile and then I was like, wait a second, what is that? And I thought maybe your account got hijacked or something like that and that's how this conversation started. But for the person that still sees you as Fight the Beast, mission based person, who are you today? How would you explain who you are today?
- [45:34]
Heather Nielsen
Yeah, like you said, we're all, we're all fighting something. And I think if I were to say what I'm fighting now, I realized that the Beast was not porn. I thought the Beast was porn. I thought it was the devil and porn and porn creators and porn stars and, and you know, all these horrible dark things. And then I realized that I think the Beast is, is in most cases our own guilt and shame, our own lack of being able to rationally do what's right for us. Those voices in our heads that I don't know that have that physiological effect on us that causes depression and anxiety and unhappiness. And so now I think I'm still fighting that beast and in a, in a new way just trying to help people realize that you get to choose. Choose. You get to choose your own sexuality. If you. If Onlyfans doesn't vibe with you, great. It doesn't vibe for me either. Guess what? I'm not gonna date somebody that's On Only Fans, like, not happening. I'm opposed to it in a way. And I know a lot of people say, oh, that that's hypocrisy. No, it's not. To me, it's not. It's saying, this is a free choice world. You get to choose what you want, who you want to be, how you want to interact, if you want to be healthy, and what your version of healthy means. You know, you get to like, with me, you know, there's. You can be on the carnivore diet and have huge health benefits. There are people with autoimmune diseases that can only survive on carnivore diet. Then there are people with other issues that can only survive as a vegetarian. Who's to say one of them's healthy and one of them's not, or one of them's right, one of them's wrong, one of them's morally correct, the other's not. And so for me, it's releasing all of that and saying, there is a need here. There is absolutely. The people who are on Only fans, many of them are on there for a reason, because they either receive no love, no human connection. Some of these people do. Okay, I'm not saying that's everybody, but there is a huge section of people on there who have never had a relationship, who feel like they are unlovable, that they have never been on a date. I've talked to men who are virgins in their 40s, and they've just, you know, felt. Felt so isolated, felt so unseen. And I think that there's this need on there to. For me to be able to connect with those people, to say, you're seen, you're loved, you're valuable, you're a cool person now, you know, and just to build people up and. And then for everyone who doesn't want it, great. Live your life without it. But don't go around being angry. And that's what I released, and that's what I hope anyone listening to this who's angry about what I'm doing can also release and is release your anger. Understand that your perspective is not the only perspective, that your needs are not the only needs. If it's not good for you, don't participate. If it is good for you and you feel those benefits, great, cool. Good for you. But everyone gets to choose.
- [48:30]
Dr. JC
Yeah. And the people that are walking around angry and feel justified in being angry, that's okay too, you know, like, everything's okay. What would Heather of 20266 say to Heather that was on my show, you know, years ago. What would you say to her?
- [48:48]
Heather Nielsen
I think about that a lot. I also think about what would like the teenage version of me or the child version. They say, like what? I think if I got to explain my position, I think I would have been open to it. I think that the things that I learned through transcendentalism, through relationships, through statistics, you know, I could have probably maybe talked logic into myself, or maybe I needed those experiences. I don't know. I know for sure at one point, because I had actually Since I was 18 years old, people were telling me that I should be a stripper, that I should be a dancer, that I should be an only fans model. I got those comments all the time. And especially with Fight the Beast, it was five years of my number one comment was, you should be making porn instead. So I had resisted all of that for so long. I mean, even people close to me, family members, like, like people I dated, were always like, you should do this. And it was a weird world for me. And I, I always rejected because I was like, no, I don't want to hurt anyone. I don't want, you know, children to accidentally see this. And then I got to the point where I realized, well, first of all, it's already out there. Second of all, OnlyFans does require an ID, which is again why I chose to go with that website, because they have to ID verify you to have an account. So I felt a little bit safer there. But also, it's just this idea of, of everyone's gonna choose what they're gonna choose. So I don't know, how would I have felt about that? I'd reject it so much. I felt very triggered, very much like I would never want to be a part of the problem. I would never want to hurt a relationship. I would never want to hurt a kid. But yeah, just since realizing that's not, that's not how that works. You don't. It's just. It's an incorrect view of how people function. It's. It's a very controlling view. That's another thing. I would say there was this, this fight mode, but then there's also this control mode. I felt religiously obligated to control other people and treat other people like children. For five years through Fight the Beast, I was treating men like, we need to take away the candy or they won't behave right. And I think that was a very immature view of men. And I realized, wait, men get to do what they want. They are rational beings. They can make their. Whether or not we're rational being, that's a whole other. Other debate. But for the most part, we can say, okay, well, if you want this, you choose it. I'm not gonna sit around being the guard of the cookie jar. Like, that's insane.
- [51:10]
Dr. JC
And I don't know, it's so fascinating because, you know, this is obviously a topic that everybody talks about and curious about, only fans, but you could take this conversation in any industry, porn or not, just, just recognize that human beings get to choose the way that they look at things and what they think about things. And a lot of my work is just pointing out, you know, I teach this thing called the Interface Response System, which begins with me pointing out and saying, well, are you aware of where you got your perspective from and your opinions from, or do you think that you came up with that on your own? Because I know that if I had a conversation with who I am now, with me, years ago, he would be like, you're out of your mind, dude. You know, you know what you're talking about. Because he didn't know some things, you know, so we live and we learn. I have a daughter, and I know you do too. And for me, like, I don't even want like a guy like, talking to my daughter, you know, because I'm in like that paranoid dad phase. But I'm, I'm getting there. I'm loosening up a little bit. But the idea of her doing something like this scares me in one sense, but that's because it's my daughter. What is the financial autonomy of women look like in 2026 and going on? Because to a certain degree, somebody like you who's. And, and what, what I'll say to the, to the, everybody in the show is I can't tell you how many times we tried to do this podcast episode with Heather that when we had to cancel. And the reason why is because she's like, always with her kids, right? So I just want everybody to know that she's a fantastic mom to the point where she's impossible to tag down. So let everybody know that. What is your stance on all of this, the industry, and what would you say to a 15, 16 year old girl saying like, hey, should I do that one day?
- [53:04]
Heather Nielsen
Yeah. So let's track a couple components here, because I want to comment on a bunch of factors here. One is what I would say to any of my kids in general. So we'll come back to that. That as far as the financial piece for women, it's been really fascinating because I've been self employed since I was 17 years old. I've never worked for anybody. So I've always been radically independent. I've always been self employed. I've been single for more than seven years. I think 10 years total. I've been a single mom. So, you know, I like, I didn't need this in order to be that way. I also think with AI moving forward, I don't know what anybody's autonomy is going to look like. It's hard to say because so much AI porn is out there now that it's almost like, do we need humans for this? Why are people still even looking at my content? Like there's. It's a very interesting space. It has definitely had a profound impact on me. People called me unstable, whatever, I don't care. The first three months where I was doing it, I was like happy crying like multiple times a day because it gave me so much safety that I didn't have for the last seven years as a single mom. And it gave me that financial peace of mind, like, everything is going to be okay no matter what happens. And it was huge. My kids felt the difference. Their mental health got so much better when they were like, mom can just, mom doesn't have to. Like even little things like just, I have three kids. It's expensive having three kids. It didn't matter how much money I was making with Fight the Beast. Like, like kids are expensive and I have a homestead and animals. I was never broke. But also just going from, okay, guys, we have to, you know, it's a 30 minute drive home but we can't get fast food right now because, you know, money's, you know, I have a budget to, okay, we can eat out. And I'm not stressed about it and I'm not all. I'm also not going to yell at you to be quiet because I'm working or I'm not going to push you guys away because I'm stressed. That just radically changed everything for me as a single mom. Now I will say that sucks because I don't want my kids to be single parents. I don't want them to ever be in that position where they have those stressed out emotions. Part of that for me was saying, you know, maybe I didn't choose to be a single mom, but what's the next best thing? I think that's the thinking that we have to have a lot of times is what's the next best option here? Well, being a stressed out single mom is a lot worse Than, you know, like, I just wanted to. Yeah. To in some ways prioritize my kids there. But let's go back to that question of what would I tell them? Because I think it's been a while, but I think at the time they kind of knew. I don't know what they knew, but I think they all kind of knew because I was doing a lot of photo shoots and they were like. I remember my 12 year old son said to me at one point, he said, you of all people, mom, really? And I said, look, dude, you guys are my priority and I want to make sure that we have a happy home life because that matters a lot more than rigid values. And they were like, okay. Like, they just were like, all right, cool. Again, I don't know how far they knew things, but I could sense that my daughter said some things. I was like, you have a really good intuition. Okay. As far as that, you know, I wouldn't want my kids to be in that industry. There's one creator that I really love. She always talks to girls publicly online and she basically says, as many other creators do, you have to really love this industry. Like any job, don't do it if you don't love it. I love human sexuality, which is why I was teaching Fight the Beast. I love talking to people about their sexuality. You know, your wife, she does what she does. It's a topic she loves, I'm sure.
- [56:43]
Dr. JC
Right.
- [56:43]
Heather Nielsen
This is a topic I love. I don't think that's right for everybody. You know, like if it's not. If, if your child loves talking about it, loves taking photos, loves creating content. Sure. You know, it's. I don't think it's going to hurt them as long as that's truly what they love a lot of people. I had a friend blow up and like block me and then came back and apologized for it. But he was like, I was scared what was going to happen to you. I was scared what was going to happen to me and my friends was going to happen to you. Because he had experience with that. And I was like, no. Like, I actually love this. I'm not doing it because I'm desperate. I'm not selling myself because I'm desperate. I'm doing this because I enjoy it, because it's something I'm passionate about. As far as girls, you know, I, I still want to continue to teach my boys, but not from a shame perspective. Like, I still think the healthiest way of being is probably to avoid this. But we also don't like movies. We stay off technology. Like, I want a technology free life and I want to empower them to also have a technology free life. Life. I don't have social media anymore. I deleted my TikToks, my Instagrams, because I don't need them anymore. I don't want to be a part of that world. Daughters with girls are very insecure. And again, I said I wanted to start a women's organization potentially to just help women realize, like, don't be insecure, you know, and how to empower women to not compete with girls on the Internet, to not feel like they need to. To realize that. That. I've heard so many men say that their wives were just the most beautiful, wonderful person on the planet and it didn't matter what they look like. I've heard men be like, I love my wives stretch marks and I've got my own weird defects. And for people to not care is just, to me, really funny. It's contrary to what a lot of women believe. You know, we have these. I do really wanted to teach and empower my kids. That idea of do what you love, do what's right for you, don't do anything that makes you feel bad. But I'm not gonna put those thoughts in their heads. They have to explore that and figure out for themselves.
- [58:41]
Dr. JC
Yeah. Here's the craziest question I'm gonna ask you today. How would somebody find you? So at the end of podcasts, we always say, so what are, what are your. Your connection channels and stuff? If somebody hears this podcast or watches this video, where would you direct them?
- [58:59]
Heather Nielsen
Yeah, you know, because I got rid of my website, all of my social media, it is almost impossible to find me. There is. I'll tell you, there is one link available. I think people can still book calls with me if anyone wanted to. It's links.fight the beast.org I think is still available and running, and people can.
- [59:20]
Dr. JC
So you still do coaching?
- [59:22]
Heather Nielsen
Not really.
- [59:22]
Dr. JC
Right.
- [59:23]
Heather Nielsen
I can't. Like, I have, have. I'm not really. I'm very picky who I coach. It's not just a publicly available thing anymore. I do still offer sometimes some sessions.
- [59:32]
Dr. JC
Right.
- [59:33]
Heather Nielsen
I do what's called a root cause session, where I help people identify. This is something I developed, and it's actually when I developed, this is how I got to OnlyFans, because I started identifying the root cause of people's addiction. And I was just blown away. I was like, this is not what I expected.
- [59:49]
Dr. JC
Right.
- [59:50]
Heather Nielsen
So I do that. And then I think that link, you
- [59:53]
Dr. JC
do have an only fans site or something like that?
- [59:57]
Heather Nielsen
I do. I have two. So technically, I think my screen name on there one of them. I don't like sharing this. I'm not promoting myself. Okay, you guys. But I will share just in for the people who are curious. Links.fightthebeast.org has all of my links on there, including the only fans. But you can also go. I think my name there is just Heather Nielsen. They can find it there. Also YouTube. They can find me on YouTube. I'm awakened with Heather. It's another one of my only fans accounts as well. Awaken with Heather.
- [60:28]
Dr. JC
So only Fans is on YouTube?
- [60:30]
Heather Nielsen
No, I use that screen name in both places.
- [60:32]
Dr. JC
Okay, gotcha. Understood. Well, listen, I'm so happy that we got to do this. I learned a lot. You know, it's. It. There's. I'm just a busy guy, love my wife, family guy. I don't even have time to even know about any of this stuff right now. But, but, but I mean, I'm aware of it and I know that in many families it's causing a lot of trouble. I know that a lot of people don't know anything about it but have decided that they hate it. And I know that some people will probably like it a little too much. And I'm sure we have a whole host of all of those people listening to this right now. But I, I know for sure that they probably have not run into anybody like you that, you know, has this story, but also takes this approach. So I think it was refreshing. It's perfect for. For this show, the ideas to always provide people with an alternative perspective. And I'm pretty sure that that's what we just did. So I want to just thank you so much for your willingness to have this. I. I was telling my wife, I'm like, I got to get this interview with her before she disappears, because I think she's just going to disappear off the map. So I'm so happy that we did this and I hope that you're. You're happy with the. The way it went as well. I think it was a good episode. So thanks for being here. That's it for today to support the make sense with Dr. JC podcast. Be sure to subscribe, like and share as well as follow the Make Sense substack for free daily quotes, live streams and blogs. And remember, learning without action is just another form of distraction. If something hit home and you learned something today, give it away. That's the. The only way it's going to stay see you next time.
- [62:14]
Heather Nielsen
Makes sense.
- [62:19]
Liberty Mutual Spokesperson
And Doug, there's nowhere I wouldn't go to help someone customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual. Even if it means sitting front row at a comedy show.
- [62:29]
Heather Nielsen
Hey, everyone.
- [62:30]
Liberty Mutual Spokesperson's Friend
Check out this guy and his bird. What is this, your first date?
- [62:33]
Heather Nielsen
Oh.
- [62:33]
Liberty Mutual Spokesperson
Oh, no. We help people customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual together. We're married. Me to a human, him to a bird.
- [62:39]
Liberty Mutual Spokesperson's Friend
Yeah, the bird looks out of your league.
- [62:41]
Liberty Mutual Spokesperson
Anyways, Only pay for what you need@libertymutual.com Liberty.
- [62:45]
Liberty Mutual Spokesperson's Friend
Liberty. Liberty. Liberty.
- [62:48]
Dr. JC
If you like the show, please take
- [62:50]
Grainger Narrator
a moment to rate, review and subscribe. It really does help the show to grow.
- [62:55]
Dr. JC
Thank you for listening.