Episode Summary: Making Sense with Sam Harris - Episode #382 “The Eye of Nature”

Release Date: September 6, 2024
Host: Sam Harris
Guest: Richard Dawkins
Book Discussed: The Genetic Book of the Dead by Richard Dawkins

Introduction

In Episode #382 of Making Sense, neuroscientist and philosopher Sam Harris welcomes renowned evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins to discuss his latest work, The Genetic Book of the Dead. The conversation delves into the intricate connections between genetics, evolution, and the future of genetic engineering, while also touching upon political and societal issues.

Discussing The Genetic Book of the Dead

The Concept of Genes as a Palimpsest

Richard Dawkins introduces the central metaphor of his book, comparing the genome to a palimpsest—a manuscript page that has been scraped clean and used again, yet still bears traces of the original writing.

Dawkins [04:24]: "The Genetic Book of the Dead is a description in the genes and in the body of an animal of all its ancestral worlds... it's a palimpsest of writings from all these different ages where they've been partially erased and then written over again."

Genes as Immortal Instructions

Dawkins explains that genes are "immortal" in the sense that they persist through generations, continually shaping future phenotypes.

Dawkins [04:24]: "Genes are a kind of set of instructions to the body as to how to not proceed to the afterlife... but how to hand the genes on to the afterlife, which is the next generation and the next and the next and so on."

Potential of Future Genomic Science

The conversation explores the hypothetical advancements where future scientists could decode the entire ancestral history embedded within an organism's genome.

Dawkins [07:43]: "Scientists of the future will be able to read the book, which is the animal and its genes, and piece together the entire palimpsest of its ancestral history."

Understanding Genotype and Phenotype

Defining Key Terms

Sam Harris seeks clarity on fundamental biological concepts to ensure listener understanding.

Dawkins [09:09]: "A genotype is the set of genes in the animal and the phenotype is what the genes manifest themselves as. So the phenotype is the body, its behavior, everything that we actually see of the animal."

Predicting Phenotypes from Genotypes

Dawkins admits current limitations in predicting an organism's phenotype solely from its genotype, emphasizing the complexity of embryonic development.

Dawkins [08:32]: "Not very close. And that, of course, would be a big problem for the Genetic Book of the Dead."

Epigenetics vs. Lamarckian Inheritance

Clarifying Epigenetics

Dawkins discusses the frequently misunderstood concept of epigenetics, distinguishing it from Lamarckian ideas.

Dawkins [11:22]: "Epigenetics is, I think, a much misused word. It's really just a word for embryology... some genes are turned on in liver cells and different genes are turned on in kidney cells."

Debunking Lamarckian Theory

The conversation delves into why modern epigenetic findings do not support Lamarckian inheritance of acquired characteristics.

Dawkins [12:47]: "It's very different from the giraffe's neck... It doesn't have the same adaptive potential."

Practical Implications

An example is provided to illustrate the fleeting nature of epigenetic changes across generations.

Dawkins [15:29]: "It would not go forward to the grandchildren or the great grandchildren... because it doesn't."

Evolutionary Mechanisms and Natural Selection

Camouflage and Natural Selection

Dawkins uses the example of a desert lizard's camouflage to illustrate the detailed and incremental nature of natural selection.

Dawkins [06:42]: "In the case of a human or any mammal, we would read old writings about the sea... it's a palimpsest of writings from all these different ages."

Incremental Evolutionary Changes

The discussion highlights how small, advantageous changes accumulate over time, enhancing survival.

Dawkins [19:22]: "From a long distance away in a poor light and out of the corner of your eye, even a very crude resemblance to a stick will escape the attention."

Challenges in Intuitive Understanding

Dawkins attributes the difficulty in grasping evolutionary processes to the vast timescales and subtle advantages of genetic changes.

Dawkins [22:22]: "It's partly it's that the timescale involved is so huge and we're not equipped to deal with millions of years."

Human Dependence on Material Culture

Evolution of Human Survival Skills

Sam Harris brings up the contrast between humans and other animals in terms of survival without cultural aids.

Harris [25:12]: "Human beings seem so imperfectly selected to survive without material culture."

Co-Evolution of Genes and Culture

Dawkins explains how humans have evolved alongside their cultural advancements, leading to increased dependence on technology and societal structures.

Dawkins [27:32]: "We've co-evolved culturally and genetically... our genes have gradually moved us on into a world in which we are surrounded by culture."

The Future of Genetic Engineering

Possibilities and Ethical Concerns

The conversation shifts to the potential and ethical implications of human genetic engineering.

Harris [28:27]: "What are you expecting us to do with our increasing power to actually engineer changes within our own genomes?"

Dawkins [28:47]: "We've been changing the genomes of domestic animals and plants for thousands of years... but with humans, it's different."

Risks of Unregulated Genetic Manipulation

Dawkins warns about the dangers of unchecked genetic engineering, drawing parallels to historical eugenics movements.

Dawkins [29:54]: "You could produce all sorts of monstrous humans analogous to producing Chihuahuas from wolves."

Democratization of Genetic Technology

The discussion highlights the inevitability of genetic modifications becoming accessible, raising concerns about societal impacts.

Harris [32:29]: "It's very hard to imagine us avoid culturally perfectly collaborating to avoid extreme outcomes on a global level."

Dawkins [34:53]: "I quite agree."

The Symbiotic Nature of Our Genes

Genes as Symbiotic Viruses

In a provocative analogy, Dawkins suggests that our own genes function similarly to symbiotic viruses, fundamentally cooperating to ensure survival and reproduction.

Dawkins [35:04]: "We should regard all our own genes... as symbiotic viruses. A gigantic colony of symbiotic viruses."

Co-Operation Among Genes

He elaborates that all our genes work in harmony to produce a functioning organism because they share the common goal of propagation.

Dawkins [35:04]: "All the genes in our body cooperate to produce a body because that's their hope for the future."

Viral Integration into the Genome

Dawkins mentions that a significant portion of the human genome comprises viral elements integrated through evolutionary history.

Harris [38:37]: "Are we aware of any viruses that target the gametes that way?"

Dawkins [38:45]: "I think it's something like 8% of what we think of as our genome really did come in as separate viruses."

Conclusion

Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins engage in a thought-provoking discussion that traverses the depths of genetics, evolution, and the ethical quandaries of future scientific advancements. Dawkins' The Genetic Book of the Dead serves as a foundation for exploring how our understanding of genes not only unravels the past but also shapes the trajectory of future human development.

Notable Quotes:

• Dawkins [06:27]: "Genes are a kind of set of instructions to the body... they are a kind of set of instructions."

• Dawkins [17:14]: "The daily and hourly scrutinizing produces the picture of a desert on the lizard's back... It goes right through the animal."

• Harris [32:29]: "It's very hard to imagine us avoid culturally perfectly collaborating to avoid extreme outcomes on a global level."

• Dawkins [35:04]: "All our own genes can be thought of as a gigantic colony of viruses which cooperate with each other."

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