Podcast Summary: Making Sense with Sam Harris
Episode #396 — The Way Forward
Release Date: December 20, 2024
Host: Sam Harris
Guest: Matthew Iglesias

Introduction

In Episode #396 of Making Sense, Sam Harris engages in a deep and insightful conversation with journalist and political commentator Matthew Iglesias. The discussion navigates the tumultuous landscape of Democratic politics, the pervasive influence of identity politics, and the broader implications for American society. Drawing from Iglesias's extensive experience in progressive journalism and his critical perspectives, the episode offers a candid exploration of the challenges facing the Democratic Party and the potential pathways forward.

Matthew Iglesias’s Background

[00:50] Matthew Iglesias:
"I started writing a blog sort of in my spare time when I was a college student around 2001-2002, graduated, worked for a kind of a small progressive magazine here in D.C. called the American Prospect. For a number of years I've been doing different things, but mostly kind of digital journalism from Washington, D.C. writing about politics."

Iglesias details his journey from blogging during his college years to his roles in progressive journalism, including his tenure at Vox.com before launching his own Substack. His evolution reflects a broader shift among progressive voices grappling with the changing dynamics within Democratic politics since the late 2010s.

Democrats Losing Their Way: The Identity Politics Dilemma

[02:23] Matthew Iglesias:
"Primarily Democrats have gotten sort of out of touch with kind of mainstream cultural and moral values that people have... the core of what it is that people like about the idea of a political party that cares about, you know, protecting vulnerable people and making sure that we're all taken care of has gone into this kind of hyper focus on the idea of a kind of escalator of privilege and oppression."

Iglesias asserts that the Democratic Party has strayed from its foundational values by becoming overly entangled in identity politics and divisive narratives. This shift, he argues, has alienated mainstream voters and diluted the party's ability to address core social and economic issues effectively.

The Daniel Penny/Jordan Neely Case: A Microcosm of Identity Politics

[06:54] Matthew Iglesias:
"...we have really moved away from being able to coercively treat people who are a danger to themselves and to others. And that's a real problem. I think, in our society."

Referring to the Daniel Penny and Jordan Neely incidents, Iglesias highlights the problematic nature of how identity factors shape public perception and media coverage. He criticizes the left-wing inclination to interpret such events through a racial lens, arguing that it obscures the underlying issues related to mental health and public safety.

Race in Politics: A Barrier to Objective Morality

[10:16] Sam Harris:
"...any reference to race most of the time, virtually all of the time, is politically and even ethically suspect... if you swap the skin colors on the various participants, they feel differently. Reliably differently."

Sam Harris posits that the constant invocation of race in political and ethical discussions often undermines objective moral reasoning. He suggests that reducing the emphasis on racial identity could lead to more equitable and rational policy-making, aligning with a broader vision of individual treatment over group-based judgments.

[11:11] Matthew Iglesias:
"...we don't want to be encouraging people to think in terms of racial and ethnic categories. That's sort of contrary to the American value ethic historically."

Iglesias concurs, emphasizing the importance of diminishing the salience of race in societal interactions and policies. He critiques the recent trend of embedding racial discourse into various contexts, advocating instead for a focus on universal humanistic principles.

Wealth Inequality vs. Race-Based Policies: Charting a Path Forward

[20:32] Sam Harris:
"...on average African American families have one eighth the amount of familial wealth as white families... if you focus on class, if you focused on disparities in wealth and all of the opportunities that correlate with wealth... you would obviously disproportionately advantage or appropriately and proportionately advantage, depending on how you thought about it, people of color..."

Harris underscores the significance of addressing economic disparities without necessarily framing them within racial contexts. He argues that focusing on class-based solutions can inherently benefit marginalized communities without the divisiveness of race-centric policies.

[22:46] Matthew Iglesias:
"...when Barack Obama was president... he was trying to do a big health care bill that... it expanded Medicaid. It gave extra money to low income people to... help take care of their health needs... he was trying to sink an effort to help poor people by making it out to be just an effort to help black people."

Iglesias provides historical context, illustrating how conflating racial issues with economic policies can be politically counterproductive. He advocates for an egalitarian approach that addresses poverty and inequality universally, rather than through targeted racial interventions.

Biden’s Legacy: A Meager Impact?

[26:22] Matthew Iglesias:
"I think it's going to be quite meager. His whole pitch was that he was going to save the country from Trump... essentially there is no legacy, except that we don't know what's going to become of Trump."

Iglesias remains critical of President Joe Biden's tenure, suggesting that his administration may not leave a significant or lasting legacy. He attributes this to Biden's focus on countering Trump rather than advancing a transformative agenda, potentially rendering his time in office largely forgettable.

The Uncertain Future of Trumpism and the Republican Party

[30:24] Matthew Iglesias:
"...an idea of a kind of a crude nationalism to Trump that I think has kind of deep roots and that you see in a lot of different countries and a lot of different contexts... There's an element of personalistic politics to Trump that's very unusual and that I think is gonna be hard for anybody else to replicate."

Iglesias discusses the enduring influence of Trumpism within the Republican Party, noting its deep-seated nationalist and personalistic elements. He expresses skepticism about the party's ability to move beyond Trump's shadow, foreseeing continued challenges in restoring a more traditional conservative ethos.

Immigration Policy Failures: A Political Disaster

[31:55] Sam Harris:
"What do you make of the failure on the part of Democrats and the Biden administration to deal with the immigration problem at the border, which was so obviously politically disastrous?"

Although the transcript cuts off at this point, the question underscores one of the pressing issues discussed: the Biden administration's handling of immigration. The dialogue likely explores the political repercussions of immigration policy mismanagement and its impact on public perception of the Democratic Party.

Conclusion

In this episode, Sam Harris and Matthew Iglesias delve into the complexities of modern Democratic politics, critically examining the pervasive role of identity politics and its ramifications for both the party and American society at large. They advocate for a shift towards more inclusive, class-based policies that transcend racial divisions, emphasizing the need for moral clarity and objective reasoning in political discourse. The conversation also touches on the uncertain trajectories of political figures like Joe Biden and Donald Trump, highlighting the broader implications for the future of American governance.

Notable Quotes:

• Matthew Iglesias [02:23]:
  "Democrats have gotten sort of out of touch with kind of mainstream cultural and moral values that people have."

• Sam Harris [10:16]:
  "Any reference to race most of the time, virtually all of the time, is politically and even ethically suspect."

• Matthew Iglesias [22:46]:
  "Rush Limbaugh... used to say, oh, this Obamacare, this is really a reparations program... trying to mobilize racial division to defeat an egalitarian economic program."

• Sam Harris [20:32]:
  "If you focus on class, if you focused on disparities in wealth and all of the opportunities that correlate with wealth... you would obviously disproportionately advantage or appropriately and proportionately advantage... people of color."

These quotes encapsulate the core arguments presented by both Harris and Iglesias, highlighting their critical stance on the current trajectory of Democratic politics and the emphasis on identity over class-based solutions.