#399 — The Politics of Catastrophe

Summary

Episode Summary: Making Sense with Sam Harris – Episode #399: The Politics of Catastrophe

Release Date: January 27, 2025
Guests: Rick Caruso, Businessman and Former LA City Commissioner
Host: Sam Harris

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Introduction

In Episode #399 of "Making Sense with Sam Harris," titled "The Politics of Catastrophe," Sam Harris engages in a profound conversation with Rick Caruso, a prominent businessman and former commissioner of Los Angeles. The discussion delves into the recent catastrophic LA fires, examining the response, underlying political dynamics, infrastructure challenges, and the broader implications for governance and societal wealth distribution.

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Guest Background

Sam Harris (00:24):
Sam begins by inviting Rick Caruso to share his background, establishing his credibility as a seasoned businessman with extensive experience in both the private sector and public service.

Rick Caruso (00:52):
Rick outlines his journey from practicing law to founding his successful real estate business after his firm went bankrupt. He details his early involvement in public service under Mayor Tom Bradley, serving on the Department of Water and Power (DWP) commission, and later as president of the police commission during challenging times, including the Rodney King riots. Rick emphasizes his commitment to both business and public service, highlighting his role in revitalizing the LA police department and reducing crime to historic lows.

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Response to the LA Fires

Sam Harris (00:29):
Sam introduces the primary focus of the episode—the devastating LA fires. He lauds Rick's leadership and hints at the significant impact Rick had during the crisis, suggesting that Rick's expertise might have mitigated some of the disaster's effects.

Rick Caruso (06:14):
Rick expresses confidence that, given the right leadership, the response to the fires could have been more effective. He criticizes the lack of preparation, referencing a previous Brentwood fire (06:14) as a missed opportunity to address predictable risks. Rick points out specific failures, such as the removal of a main reservoir during peak fire season, leading to inadequate water supply for firefighting efforts.

“There was a failure of leadership at a lot of different levels and I've been very open about this, including the mayors, to not be adequately prepared.” (06:14)

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Infrastructure Failures and Leadership Shortcomings

Sam Harris (05:28):
Sam probes into what could have been done differently, emphasizing the importance of rebuilding and using the opportunity to transform Los Angeles into a resilient 21st-century city.

Rick Caruso (09:15):
Rick elaborates on the infrastructural inadequacies, particularly focusing on water supply issues during the fires. He references the 1961 Bel Air fire, highlighting that similar problems were not adequately addressed thereafter.

“When things are predictable, they're preventable.” (06:14)

Sam Harris (12:10):
The conversation shifts to rebuilding efforts, zoning, and building codes, with Sam questioning whether the fire-affected areas need rezoning or infrastructure modernization.

Rick Caruso (12:25):
Rick advocates for modernizing infrastructure rather than rezoning, suggesting upgrades to power lines, water mains, and street systems to enhance resilience against future disasters.

“…we should have more equipment in LA Fire Department's arsenal…” (16:00)

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Private Firefighting Efforts

Sam Harris (15:35):
Sam highlights Rick's successful initiative in saving the Palisades shopping center using private firefighters, raising ethical questions about privatizing emergency services.

Rick Caruso (16:00):
Rick defends the use of private firefighting teams, recounting his experience in protecting the Rosewood Miramar resort during previous fires. He explains that private resources supplemented municipal efforts without depleting public firefighting resources. Rick emphasizes that such initiatives are scalable and could alleviate the strain on public services.

“Had the fire department been properly staffed, nobody would need private firefighters.” (20:05)

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Rebuilding and Cleanup Challenges

Sam Harris (23:55):
Sam shifts focus to the extensive cleanup required post-fire, addressing concerns about toxic debris and the logistical challenges of waste removal from the Palisades.

Rick Caruso (24:28):
Rick acknowledges the complexity of cleanup operations, noting that it involves stringent federal and state standards. He expresses concern over the delay in initiating cleanup and the potential health risks from airborne contaminants like asbestos and VOCs.

“I really believe the majority of the people really love that quality of life in the Palisades and that’s what’s hurting them.” (16:00)

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Political Implications and Governance

Sam Harris (33:42):
Sam explores the political fallout from the fires, questioning whether this disaster offers an opportunity to overhaul Californian politics towards greater competence and effectiveness.

Rick Caruso (36:55):
Rick agrees, asserting that the fires have shifted public perception towards valuing competence over political allegiance. He criticizes current political factions, particularly socialist groups advocating policies like defunding the police, which he believes exacerbate governance issues. Rick advocates for electing qualified leaders focused on service rather than party politics.

“Competence needs to be married with backbone and courage.” (42:27)

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Wealth Inequality and Philanthropy

Sam Harris (49:30):
The discussion transitions to wealth inequality, with Sam expressing concern over societal resentment towards the wealthy and advocating for increased philanthropic efforts.

Rick Caruso (55:32):
Rick concurs, emphasizing the importance of responsible philanthropy. He shares his and his wife's substantial donations to community projects and underscores the effectiveness of targeted philanthropic initiatives like their "Operation Progress" program, which supports education for underprivileged children.

“We give away on average about 20%. I think that’s a very large number.” (62:08)

Sam Harris (58:34):
Sam proposes a more aggressive philanthropic model, suggesting that billionaires could commit a significant portion of their wealth to immediate societal needs without impacting their lifestyles.

Rick Caruso (72:33):
Rick appreciates the idea but warns against the potential pitfalls of philanthropy if not executed thoughtfully. He stresses the need for strategic giving that addresses root causes rather than superficial fixes, advocating for collaborative efforts that empower communities sustainably.

“It’s hard to do it well, and it can have perverse effects if you do it badly.” (59:29)

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Future Aspirations and Public Service

Sam Harris (75:18):
As the conversation nears its end, Sam inquires about Rick's future political ambitions, hinting at the potential for further public service.

Rick Caruso (72:33):
Rick expresses a strong affinity for public service, recounting the challenges he faced during his mayoral campaign, including intense political opposition and systemic corruption. While he remains open to future roles, he remains cautious about re-entering the political arena due to the heightened antagonism and systemic barriers he previously encountered.

“What I learned from that exercise, it is so liberating when you’re in a position to make a decision where you’re not worried about the consequence of the decision.” (45:18)

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Conclusion

The episode concludes with mutual appreciation between Sam Harris and Rick Caruso, reflecting on the importance of competent leadership, strategic philanthropy, and the need for systemic reforms to prevent future catastrophes. Rick remains committed to his philanthropic endeavors, aiming to inspire others to contribute meaningfully to societal rebuilding efforts.

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Notable Quotes

• Rick Caruso (06:14):
  “There was a failure of leadership at a lot of different levels and I've been very open about this, including the mayors, to not be adequately prepared.”

• Sam Harris (12:10):
  “Do building codes need to be changed and zoning change? I mean, we're going to talk about the rebuilding there, but do we have a problem of just density that's unsustainable with respect to some of these areas?”

• Rick Caruso (16:00):
  “We worried about our downtown that we built. And he called me about, I think it was about 10 o'clock and said, we ran out of water.”

• Rick Caruso (24:28):
  “…there has to be incredibly high degree of care by anybody that's cleaning that up.”

• Rick Caruso (36:55):
  “Both of these parties are sort of closed loops, and you just can't run an organization that way.”

• Rick Caruso (42:27):
  “Competence needs to be married with backbone and courage.”

• Rick Caruso (62:08):
  “We give away on average about 20%. I think that’s a very large number.”

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Key Takeaways

1. Leadership and Preparedness: Effective leadership is crucial in disaster response. Rick Caruso highlights the importance of proactive measures and adequate preparedness to mitigate the impact of predictable catastrophes like wildfires.

2. Infrastructure Modernization: Updating and maintaining critical infrastructure, such as water supply systems and power lines, is essential to enhance city resilience against natural disasters.

3. Private Sector Involvement: Private firefighting efforts can complement public services, especially when municipal resources are strained. However, sustained investment in public services remains imperative.

4. Political Realignment: The fires may catalyze a shift towards valuing competence over partisan politics, emphasizing the need for qualified, service-oriented leaders.

5. Wealth Inequality and Philanthropy: Addressing societal challenges requires collaborative philanthropic efforts from the wealthy. Strategic, well-executed philanthropy can significantly impact rebuilding and community support.

6. Public Service Commitment: Dedication to public service, as exemplified by Rick Caruso, underscores the importance of resilient and compassionate leadership in fostering community recovery and growth.

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This episode of "Making Sense with Sam Harris" offers a comprehensive exploration of the multi-faceted issues surrounding the LA fires, providing listeners with insights into effective leadership, infrastructural resilience, and the pivotal role of philanthropy in societal reconstruction.

Transcript

[Sam Harris]

Rick Caruso, thanks for coming.

[Rick Caruso]

Thank you, Sam. Thanks for having me.

[Sam Harris]

Anything happen in the last two weeks that you want to talk about?

[Rick Caruso]

Only a couple things, man. Been a tough couple of weeks.

[Sam Harris]

Well, so obviously we're going to talk about the LA fires, and I think we'll probably also talk about California politics and maybe politics in general. Before we jump in, can you summarize your background as a businessman and as a political figure? How do you come to have any opinions about what we're going to talk about here?

[Rick Caruso]

Well, I've been really fortunate, Sam, in my life because I've been able to lead a life that is in business. Started my own business a number of years ago. I practiced law before that. Wasn't a particularly good lawyer, but it was great training. And I was with a big law firm out of New York. And I say that because the big law firm out of New York, after about six years, imploded. It went bankrupt. And it forced me to make a decision about starting a business. And so from that standpoint, it was really fortunate and a blessing. And so I started my company and, you know, one by one, built it up in real estate. And we've done some really incredible things because I've got an amazing team of people that are creative and innovative and imagine, and we like breaking a lot of the sort of the normal boundaries and rules. And then at the same time, I was asked when I was 26 to be a commissioner when Tom Bradley was mayor. I had no idea what that meant, but I had a good friend that was a commissioner and said he would make an introduction. And he asked me, what commission do I want to be on? I didn't even know what to pick. I said, I love business. And he said, well, how about Department of Water and Power? It's the largest public utility in the country. And I said, sure, that one sounds good to me.

[Sam Harris]

So what do you do? You just rent a copy of Chinatown and Blockbuster at that point?

[Rick Caruso]

Exactly. But I did that, and I served under Tom Bradley. I ended up becoming the president of that commission. And then I left. And then Dick Riorden became mayor, and he asked me to come back because that was the days of oil deregulation, energy deregulation. Enron was coming after dwp, and DWP was at risk for going bankrupt. So Dick called me up and said, you gotta come back and restructure lapd. And I did. I mean, LA dwp. And I did. And then I left there, and I thought my public service was done. And Jim Hahn Asked me to come in and be the president of the police commission, because at the time, the police department was under a federal consent decree, if you remember, after the Rodney King riots. And it was just a mess. Crime was going out of control and officers were leaving. So I came in and redid that, brought in Bill Bratton, and we got crime down to levels not seen since 1950. So I love public service, and I've been able to do both. So it's been really rewarding to me.

[Sam Harris]

Yeah, well, so we're going to track through all of this. But I can just say that seeing the result of these fires and seeing the response and the leadership or lack of leadership that we witnessed throughout, certainly in the early days, there are many of us in this town who, if we could have built a time machine and gone back after killing Hitler and doing a few other nice things, we would have figured out how to get you in the mayor's office in this town.

[Rick Caruso]

Appreciate that.

[Sam Harris]

We'll talk. I guess I'll ask you what could have been done differently, given the resources in place, if you had been mayor. And maybe the answer is not much at all, apart from the optics. But the real concern is what we do going forward, how we rebuild, how we use this opportunity to make Los Angeles one of the great cities of the 21st century. Because we really have an unusual opportunity here. We have a. In some of the nicest parts of town, we have a clean canvas. And I want to talk to you about how we respond to that. So I'm just going to go through the topics here briefly, just to give listeners and viewers a sense of where we're headed. I want to talk about what happened and what could have gone differently, the challenges of cleanup and reconstruction, which everyone is worried about. And then I want us to talk about the politics. I mean, the cynicism around government, the sense that government really is ineffectual. And I'm especially concerned that a lot of very wealthy people feel that the only response to the fecklessness of government is to figure out how to pay less in taxes, as though that were going to fix our problems. I think we'll touch on the role that DEI policies have played in California politics and whether there's anything to worry about here. They certainly have made people cynical about government. And then I want to talk about the problem of wealth inequality and the perception that there's a stigma around great wealth. Right. That there's really no way to have become a billionaire ethically. I mean, that is, if you go left of center in our politics. That's a very commonly held intuition, which I think is wrong. And I want to talk about the role that philanthropy might play in performing an exorcism on all of this. So that's where we're headed.

[Rick Caruso]

Sounds good.

[Sam Harris]

But to start, this is kind of a sanity check question I have for you, which is, given the reality on the ground, let's say you had become mayor and you would have done all the mayoral things you would have done in the immediate response to this emergency. The infrastructure was what it was. On January 7th, we had 80 mile an hour wind gusts coming across millions of acres of very dry brush. And all that land has kind of a clear run onto the city through all of our canyons. Do you think that there's anything that could have been done differently, given the resources in place and the infrastructure we currently have, on January 7th that would have made a difference?

[Rick Caruso]

Absolutely. There's no doubt in my mind. And let me tell you why. About six years ago, there was a fire in Brentwood along the 405 Freeway. So four, for the listeners that may not know the geography, that's about 15 minutes east of the Palisades where the Palisades fire. And when that fire broke out, it was put out pretty quickly. It maybe took half a day or so, but it didn't travel much. And at that time, I had said, and I called people in the city, there's 40 years of brush between Brentwood and the Palisades. And if it starts traveling west to fire, it will come right down into the Alphabet streets. That's the neighborhood that backs up to the mountains. There was no effort for 40 years to do anything about that brush. So that was a predictable problem. And I'm a big believer that when things are predictable, they're preventable. Then on top of it, some genius decided, let's take one of the main reservoirs out of service during what's typically known to be a peak fire season when the Santa Ana winds come up. So we had a bad decision there. We had a bad decision in not mobilizing the fire trucks into the area so that they were already there and could respond immediately rather than a delayed response time. There was a whole series of things you could have done. Could it have been absolutely prevented because of the catastrophic winds? I don't know. Only God knows what. I am very certain of. There was a failure of leadership at a lot of different levels and I've been very open about this, including the mayors, to not be adequately prepared. And I think There's a lot of tough questions that need to be asked and people need to be held accountable. But I just want to go back a little bit in time for a second. The head of dwp, I don't know her, she was an appointee of Mayor Bass. Clearly she made a lot of really bad decisions. And there was, back in the day of Tom Bradley or Dick Reardon or Jim Hahn that I worked for, there was sort of this golden rule that you didn't politicize these critical departments. They had a sort of a life and death kind of function. The Department of Water and Power is supplying all the water and all the power to LA City. And it really was an engineering marvel. It was known for the greatness of the engineers in that department. And as long as I was there for 13 years, the head of that department always was an engineer that came up through the ranks so that they really understood the system that broke down some years ago with Garcetti and the head of that department became more of a political person. And I think that's just a mistake. And we're paying for that mistake and a lot of others. So, yes, I do think a lot of things could have been done better and people are paying the ultimate price for it. A lot of people lost their lives, 28 people now between Palisades and Altadena and lost their homes. Thousands of homes.

[Sam Harris]

Yeah. Just to remind people, I think we're up to over 12,000 structures.

[Rick Caruso]

I think it's 15,000 now. I read it's massive amount of buildings.

[Sam Harris]

So given your experience at dwp, what do you make of the fact that it was either a lack of water or water pressure throughout the city at a certain point? Clearly there has to be some way to modernize our infrastructure such that that wouldn't happen.

[Rick Caruso]

Well, there's no doubt, but again, the one main reservoir, I think it was like over a million and a half gallons or something that was empty for repairs. So that was one of the main problems. The other two reservoirs that are smaller weren't being replenished with water quick enough. Now, part of that, in fairness, is the amount of water that was being used. But had the other reservoir been as a backup, it would have kept it. So the fire hydrants are all gravity flow. There's no pumps pumping the water out. And I think it was about 10 o'clock I got the call because we had one of our senior people up there embedded because we were obviously worried about our downtown that we built. And he called me about, I think it was about 10 o'clock and said, we ran out of water. And I said, that's impossible. How do you run out of water? I was at DWP a long time. People have been in the city a long time. When was the last time he heard about running out of water? And we've had some big fires. This is one of the biggest. But we've had some big fires. And I'll give you an answer to it. In 1961, the same problem happened, the Bel Air fire. And that makes this all the worse, is that we had a situation in 61 where some of the hydrants ran dry and we didn't do everything we could to fix it and prevent it from ever happening again.

[Sam Harris]

Yeah, I know a guy in the Palisades who was very close to where the fire started. I mean, this was just a little fire up near the highlands. And he told me. So I have this. This is, I guess, some form of journalism here. I'm talking to the homeowner who's telling me what his experience was when the fire department showed up at his house to fight the fire near his house. The hydrant closest to his house didn't produce water.

[Rick Caruso]

Well, I haven't heard that. That's crazy.

[Sam Harris]

That's completely bonkers. There was no pull on the system at that point.

[Rick Caruso]

Presumably, there was nothing.

[Sam Harris]

Yeah.

[Rick Caruso]

Okay, but this goes back. When you're the mayor or the head of an organization and you know you have a potential crisis coming, wouldn't you bring every one of your department heads in and say, run me through your protocols, tell me what your plan is, and whatever your plan is, multiply it times two so nothing bad happens. Right. And be eyeball to eyeball with each of these department heads. I. I don't think that happened. Maybe it did.

[Sam Harris]

So we'll circle back on some of these topics about what we should do. But with respect to. You mentioned the Alphabet streets, and that's the area of just Hiroshima, like devastation that people have seen photos of.

[Rick Caruso]

Yeah, terrible.

[Sam Harris]

Where literally virtually everything burned. I mean, there's a few home standing, but do building codes need to be changed and zoning change? I mean, we're going to talk about the rebuilding there, but do we have a problem of just density that's unsustainable with respect to some of these areas?

[Rick Caruso]

Yeah. Listen, as you know, people that know the area, the homes are very close to one another there. But I wouldn't touch the zoning of the Palisades. I don't think this is the time to reimagine the zoning of the Palisades. I think it's a time to reimagine the infrastructure of the Palisades, to bring it into the 21st century, to not rebuild the power lines that are running on poles anymore, that they're underground, to upgrade the water mains throughout, you know, upgrade the street systems, things like that. But I would tell you I think people want their neighborhood back, and I think it would. Personally, I can't speak for everybody in the Palisades, obviously, but I wouldn't support rezoning, and I know there's some efforts to do that, and I would push against that.

[Sam Harris]

Okay, we'll talk about the construction.

[Rick Caruso]

There should be building codes in terms of the kind of materials. Yeah, absolutely.

[Sam Harris]

And fire suppression systems or like sprinklers.

[Rick Caruso]

Absolutely.

[Sam Harris]

Well, so as you said, this was really predictable. And even the insurance companies obviously started predicting this years ago because they started canceling policies in the Palisades. How do you explain the fact that you have the insurance companies pulling out and they're experts? You can go back to look at old podcasts. Joe Rogan is recycling a clip of, I think probably five years ago, he was talking to some, reporting a conversation he had with some fire marshal who said, yeah, we're going to get the right winds one day and this whole city is going to burn. I mean, this is a tinderbox. Given that people are anticipating this, what do you make of the fact that more wasn't done to prepare again?

[Rick Caruso]

Sam? It goes back to bad leadership. I mean, I'm not trying to pick on somebody, but somebody's got to be held accountable, and that person is at the top. And I also think it goes back to Eric Garcetti. Why didn't you, as mayor, he was mayor for 10 years, clean out that shrubbery, clean out the brush. You know, that would have been a very different dynamic had that been thinned out. And why was the fire department underfunded? You know, it was one of the things I talked about in my campaign, and there's been a video of that that's gone viral where I said, I will fully fund the fire department. Since 1961, I don't have my numbers completely accurate because I don't have notes. But since 1961, we have about 2 million, maybe 3 million more people in Los Angeles. We have 10 times, no, a hundred times the amount of calls. But now we have less fire stations and the same amount of firefighters. I don't know if you saw the pictures because of the underfunding of La Fire department. The boneyard full of equipment.

[Sam Harris]

Yeah, I did see that. Yeah.

[Rick Caruso]

It's crazy.

[Sam Harris]

So we have the boneyard, meaning these are. These are trucks that are not serviceable. Right.

[Rick Caruso]

They're just because we don't have enough engineers to keep them running.

[Sam Harris]

Right.

[Rick Caruso]

We don't have enough firefighters to keep fire stations open, so we've closed them. It's insanity. So the leadership has just misprioritized the dollars. It's not a lack of money, it's where the money's going, in my opinion. And I think government's number one duty is the safety and the protection of the residents. Your budget should be organized around it.

[Sam Harris]

Okay, so some structures in the Palisades were saved, and most conspicuously, your shopping center in the Palisades was saved through, I'm told, your efforts with it, with private firefighters to save it. What did you do there? And I want to talk about the ethics of private firefighting, obviously. But what techniques were used and is what you did there scalable?

[Rick Caruso]

It is scalable. I tell you, we learned a lot building the hotel, the resort that we were building up in Montecito, the Rosewood Miramar. Because when we were building that about the same time as we were building the Palisades, they were both coming out of the ground about the same time. There was a massive fire in Montecito, if you remember. And then after the massive fire in Montecito, there were massive rains, and that's when the boulders came down, destroyed a lot of homes, and people were killed. It was just a terrible time. But we were in framing up in Montecito, and what we knew is the fire department up there, up in Santa Barbara, rightly so, will put their resources to the residential neighborhoods, not the commercial. And we didn't want to be pulling any resources from the residential neighborhoods. So our team, wisely, when the fires broke out, contacted private fire departments, and some came in from Colorado, some came in from Arizona. And I'll tell you, which I didn't realize at the time, 45% of all wildfires in this country are fought by private firefighters. This is a very large industry. And we also brought in companies that had retardant, and we brought in water trucks. So we weren't pulling on municipal water. And we were able to protect the Miramar and get it built. It wasn't threatened to the same degree, Palisades. So we had a playbook, and we took the time. Over the years, I've got the head of what we call a rapid response team for any kind of natural Disaster. We got a whole set of plans. They go to that plan depending on the disaster. The minute those wind, the wind warnings came out, they went into action. And the same teams that we used up at Miramar were called in. They were stationed up there. Water trucks were stationed up there. The retardant company was stationed up there. But where it really started was when we built it. We built all of Palisades Village without any combustible materials. Even things that look like wood are concrete. They're just formed to look like wood. So when those embers were hitting the building, they were. Fortunately, it couldn't ignite anything. If you go up there now and look at one of the back buildings, Serena and Lily, the building is scorched because of the vegetation, the plants, but the building is standing and the inside is untouched. We also designed it where there's not a lot of vents. A lot of people's homes burned down because an ember went inside an air vent inside the house. So we designed it knowing we're in a high fire risk area and we had plans to protect it because we knew that. Now, I think that's really good preparation and I do think it's scalable. It goes back to. As people rebuild their homes, they should be encouraged, required, I don't know which yet. To use more non combustible materials. And we should have more equipment in LA Fire Department's arsenal that we can spray down neighborhoods with retardant, that we can be stationed in neighborhoods and closer so that our response time is a lot less. That fire that started, I think you were talking about, the friend you were talking to was 2 acres. And because of the winds and by the time the fire trucks got there, it got to 200 acres in almost no time. So I think our team did a great job and I absolutely have zero regrets of saving the village because we saved hundreds of jobs. All those businesses are going to reopen. The majority of those businesses are small businesses. We have eight families living in the village. We save their homes. We tried to save the homes across the street. We couldn't. They were just too engulfed. But it's absolutely the right thing to do and it's gonna be an anchor to give Palisades hope to rebuild.

[Sam Harris]

I guess the only ethical criticism that makes any sense at all to me is if you're pulling from municipal water and there's a zero sum contest between what you're doing to save your center and what the fire department's doing to save a nearby home. Was that the case at all?

[Rick Caruso]

No, the majority of the water that was used was out of our trucks was non potable water. Now, the fire department responded, but fortunately, because we had our own people there, they were able to pull off and deal with the homes. But let me just add one more thing. Had the fire department been properly staffed, nobody would need private firefighters. So this is no different that's happening on the fireside than what's happening on the police side in la. We have an enormous detail of security on all of our shopping centers because the resources of LAPD are so thin, we have to be able to take care of ourselves.

[Sam Harris]

Yeah, that's the perfect analogy. Again, leaving aside a tug of war between scarce resources of water, but the water shouldn't be scarce. I mean, there's a failure of infrastructure.

[Rick Caruso]

And what's the inverse? I always like when I posed a question on business like, okay, what's the inverse?

[Sam Harris]

Let it burn down.

[Rick Caruso]

Let it burn down. Yeah, yeah, then that's a good thing. And then you're a plot. Of course not. And then, I mean, I would imagine the village alone probably employs directly and indirectly over a thousand people. And one of the real terrible side effects of this fire is the thousands of people that have lost their jobs. All these homes are gone. They have no safety net. And so I feel very good about the fact that life is gonna come back into the village, jobs are gonna come back in, and we're gonna be supporting people.

[Sam Harris]

Okay, so let's talk about that last point of people losing everything. And many of these people, certainly many, are not rich. I mean, it's widely believed that this is all rich people justice, however rough, being visited upon the rich people of. Many of the people in the Palisades were in those homes for generations. And they were only in those homes because they were in them for generations.

[Rick Caruso]

That's right.

[Sam Harris]

They bought their home for $40,000 at one point and they stayed there. And many of these people were underinsured or not insured at all. Because of the foregoing prescience of the insurance companies that we spoke about, what is the insurance solution here or the solution to the insurance problem in this area and other areas of la?

[Rick Caruso]

I don't know exactly how you solve the insurance problem short of. And this is not something I normally propose because I'm not a supporter of big government, but I think the government, the state and the federal government needs to step in because now you've got all this rebuilding going on. If insurance is even available, it's going to be incredibly expensive. We're going through this. Now, my son, whose home was damaged, is buying another home and got an insurance quote. And I couldn't believe it last night at dinner when he told me what the quote was. And to your point, so many people in the Palisades were house rich and cash poor because they had been there so long, they're not gonna be able to afford to rebuild. And they're probably very much underinsured because they were smaller homes. And then they're gonna have to sell their lot, their property, in order to financially survive. But I think on the insurance side, the federal government or the state government has to come in and backstop it. I don't know another way to do it.

[Sam Harris]

Yeah, it does seem like a market failure of some kind. Okay, so before we rebuild, we have to clean up. What are you picturing here for cleanup in the Palisades? I guess we can talk about cleanup everywhere, too, but we have all of this toxic rubble and ash. I mean, for instance, in the Palisades, there's only two trucking routes out of there. There's Sunset. I can't imagine them trucking all this waste across town over Sunset. So the other's PCH. So I'm imagining they have to take PCH to the 10 and then to some dump beyond. Yeah.

[Rick Caruso]

Yeah. It has to be a hazardous dump.

[Sam Harris]

Yeah. So what are you picturing that cleanup to be like? And how stringent are the safeguards that we're not going to spread further contamination by moving the waste? I mean, do they treat it like plutonium, where literally things have to be in sealed containers, or are we talking about open trucks with just tarps cinched across the top?

[Rick Caruso]

I'm not expert on this, Sam. I wish I was. We're trying to learn about it. You know, that's a FEMA operation.

[Sam Harris]

Yeah.

[Rick Caruso]

I wish it was already started. It hasn't started yet.

[Sam Harris]

So FEMA does everything. There's no local. It's not a local.

[Rick Caruso]

Well, actually, what we learned is, as a private landowner, you can opt to clean it up yourself to the California standards. And there's, I think, a debate going on. I don't know if it's been settled, if it's going to be clean to California standards or federal standards. So that's got to get settled first. And then generally, FEMA will come in. And as I understand it, they spray a bonding agent over the debris, and that bonding agent prevents it from dusting up, becoming airborne. And then it gets put into sealed trucks, not just with the canvas over it, and then trucked Off. It's a massive job.

[Sam Harris]

Has anyone estimated how long this is? Like, when will it, at what point will it start and how long?

[Rick Caruso]

I don't know when they start. I think we're gonna listen. I think the issue that's out there right now is, you know, the president is coming in tomorrow, he's gonna view the site. I would imagine he's gonna see Altadena also. Same problem in Altadena. And then he's got to allocate federal funding to do it. And there seems to be a little bit of friction between him and our governor and our mayor. And I hope politics stays out of this because I think the problems are too big for politics. But I don't know when it's going to start. We keep asking questions and haven't got an answer. But it's got to start soon. People need to, they need to see hope and future down the road. They really do. It's been two weeks now.

[Sam Harris]

Now, how concerned are you about the health effects of what's already happened? I mean, this is to tell people who haven't been paying attention here. There's a huge difference between what happened here and just an enormous forest fire. This was an urban fire. So we're not talking about wood burning. We're talking about everything burning. This is paint and cans of pesticide and plastic and electronics and cars and electric batteries. Yeah, yeah.

[Rick Caruso]

So, yeah.

[Sam Harris]

And some structures, certainly the older structures in the Palisades might have had asbestos in them. Right. So we're talking about, you know, volatile organic compounds like benzene and formaldehyde. We're talking about heavy metals, lead and mercury and arsenic.

[Rick Caruso]

You're painting a really beautiful picture.

[Sam Harris]

Yeah, yeah. Asbestos has already been mentioned, but there's other contaminants like dioxin. I mean, all this stuff has already been liberated. I mean, we've, the whole city has been and even for points beyond have been blanketed in this stuff in the form of smoke and ash. How concerned are you about the health effects of what's already happened? And then how concerned are you around the cleanup, further exposure that is possible, or just the fact that it's sitting there now, wind is blowing across these sites and ash is moving around. It's not the bonding agent, whatever that is. Presumably you don't want that in your body either. But that hasn't been sprayed yet.

[Rick Caruso]

No, I'm very concerned about it. And because of that concern, you know, the whole family moved out of the region and we've got our daughter in law, you know, who's pregnant. And that's high risk with these kind of VOCs floating around. So, no, I'm very concerned about it. There has to be incredibly high degree of care by anybody that's cleaning that up. And that's why they've kept the area closed out, not to get in there. But to your point, as the winds are blowing, that stuff is blowing all over the place and it's a real concern and people have to be very careful about it. So again, I would imagine it's no sooner than a year before new construction can start. If there's work that's being done with diligence, which I hope it gets done in a year. But the fact it hasn't even started concerns me too, because the longer all of those ashes are remaining, the higher the likelihood they're going to start being airborne and traveling around. Right.

[Sam Harris]

I mean, one thing I think we need is a network of real time air quality monitors that everyone can see and that scientists can study.

[Rick Caruso]

I think it's a great idea.

[Sam Harris]

We have this for smoke and 2.5 micron particulates. And I don't know if you've seen the Purple Air network, but it's just a consumer driven network where hundreds of people in cities all over the world have bought these $200 monitors. Unfortunately, that technology doesn't cover everything else we just talked about. I mean, it doesn't pick up lead and asbestos and VOCs. So I don't know, I'm looking into this now. I don't know how expensive the technology is that gives you real time readings of everything we're worried about. But whatever it is, we need the all over town.

[Rick Caruso]

I absolutely agree because I think there is a false sense of safety. You know, people look at their phone and they bring up the air quality in a region and it's been perfect.

[Sam Harris]

On days where, you know, the air smells like metal.

[Rick Caruso]

Yeah, right, exactly. It's not what can be trusted.

[Sam Harris]

Yeah, well, I'm talking to the Purple Air people tomorrow.

[Rick Caruso]

Oh, good. Let me know.

[Sam Harris]

I'll keep you in the loop.

[Rick Caruso]

Yeah, let me know.

[Sam Harris]

Okay, so let's talk about.

[Rick Caruso]

Interesting name, Purple Air.

[Sam Harris]

Yeah, I've had one of these monitors for years and relied on it and then was quite betrayed to see perfect air all over town when I knew it was poison out there. So rebuilding. We have a massive coordination problem. I'm trying to imagine, conservatively speaking, obviously businesses were burned too. So let's say there are 5,000 structures in the Palisades that burned. Let's say there's 3,500 homes. I'm just guessing, but how do those people, as you said, many won't want to rebuild or can't rebuild, so they're moving away. So they're going to sell their land. I don't know how all these individuals decide to rebuild. I mean, it's easier for me to picture someone like yourself or some group of some number of people, developers like yourself, buying up bigger tracts of land and building several different types of home, say all at once and getting some kind of economy of scale. And I just don't see how thousands of people independently do this and get their plans approved. But perhaps I'm just being naive. Is it no harder to do that than what you would do if you just had open land as a developer?

[Rick Caruso]

Well, if you just had open land as a developer, it would be much easier to your point, for sure. It's going to be complicated and it's going to be messy out there, right? You're going to have a whole bunch of people building at the same time.

[Sam Harris]

And you're going to have businesses, churches will be rebuilt and supermarkets and schools.

[Rick Caruso]

That's right. I mean, again, for people that don't know that the two supermarkets, larger supermarkets in the area, both burned down, many of the schools burned down, the churches burned down. So it's a massive effort. The rec center burned down in the park. So that's gotta get rebuilt. I had a call about that this morning with getting that started. I think just to take a tangent for a minute. From my standpoint, the priority needs to be getting schools and public spaces reopened and built quickly so people can start coming back, kids can get reunited with their friends, those kind of things. But no, it's going to be very messy. And I think there will be developers that will go in there and buy tracks, try to buy a number of lots and build. I. My hope is that it doesn't look and feel like a master planned community when it's done. Part of the charm of the Palisades, and I think Altadena is the same way because it was built over time. There was a uniqueness to the architecture, the size of the homes, the density, the landscaping. And if it looks like a master planned community, I think it would have a very different field. I think there's a. A halfway point, though. I mean, maybe developers coming in and they're building five homes at a time or eight homes at a time. I think that's going to probably happen also, but it's going to be very messy and complicated. But I always run really optimistic and I think once people start building and seeing the rebirth, I think it's going to catch on and it's going to take some time. There's no doubt. But I'm.

[Sam Harris]

There's kind of a first mover problem, because who wants to be the first person in a nice house living where as far as the eye can see, there's nothing but construction?

[Rick Caruso]

Yeah, that's right. I know.

[Sam Harris]

So you sort of need, you need a minimum number of homes there already before anyone wants a home there.

[Rick Caruso]

You do. And the Huntington will grow back quicker because of that. Because there's so much still left in the Huntington that it still feels like a neighborhood. Right. The upper Huntington has a lot of damage. The lower Huntington has almost none. So it's going to come in phases, I think. But I don't know, Sam, there's a lot of people that aren't going to be able to go back. They can't afford it financially. There's going to be people that are going to go get resettled somewhere else and not want to move their family again. But I really believe the majority of the people really love that quality of life in the Palisades and that's what's hurting them. A lot is missing that. So I think it's going to come back quicker than people expect.

[Sam Harris]

All right, well, let's talk about the political implications of all of this and how we move forward under the current regime. How might this be an opportunity to completely reset California politics? I mean, so much has happened here. It just seems that everyone, whether they're speaking this way or not, has gotten the message that the future of California politics has to be competence. Right? I mean, competence. We need competence, we need compassion, we need a few other things beyond competence. But competence is absolutely the litmus test, especially when you're watching fire engulf everything in sight. And so again, this is not something that just hit people who don't have resources. This hit everybody. And this hit people who have, through their wealth have done their best to immunize themselves against every species of dysfunction we see in our state. This is something we'll talk about when we talk about wealth inequality. But it's just, I know there are hundred million dollar homes that burned down, right? I mean, so like, this is not something that you as a rich person can say, well, this is not my problem. Because even with a private fire department, I mean, I know one case where there was a home nearly worth $100 million that burned down right next to two homes that had private firefighters protecting them from the $100 million home that was burning down. Right. So, I mean, I guess one lesson you could draw is that we needed three private firefighters there. But it's crazy. It's obvious that every wealthy person has a stake in having valid infrastructure in this society. And the optics of this were. So, again, I don't know, we'll talk about dei. I don't know that DEI played any role here in the incompetence that we're worried about or the lack of preparation we're worried about. But when you have the largest urban fire in American history and you see the evidence that the fire department has spent some of its attentional resources, if not its actual resources over the years on dei and you have interviews with people at various levels in the fire department saying that this is what's super important, is that someone looks like you when they show up to save you in your house. And you have a woman firefighter admitting that she couldn't pull a man out of a burning building, but it would be his fault for being in that building in the first place. And then you have Elon Musk send that clip to 200 million people. Right?

[Rick Caruso]

Yeah.

[Sam Harris]

Whatever the reality of the effect of dei, the optics are terrible. Right. And especially in a fire department, all we want is competence, and anything else is just masochistic insanity. Do you see the opportunity for a political reset here just in the process of reconstruction, how we just bypass the shibboleths and the interest groups and the normal stalemate that comes out of that and just say, look, this is what's going to work. This is what is actually good for the state of California. You have thousands of people lost their homes. This is how you get insured. We need a hard reset here.

[Rick Caruso]

Yeah, I do. And I think it was on its way and building that momentum before the fire hit. And certainly the fire, I think, changed a lot of people's views on it. And there is an opportunity here that should be taken advantage of, where we start electing people to your point, that are qualified, that have experience, there's a competency level. There's at least a competency level to know what you don't know and surround yourself with people that fill in the blanks for you so you make good decisions that understand running a complex organization like a city or a state isn't about how long you've been in office or what party you're a member of. I truly believe one of the big shifts we're going to see is less of being concerned about what party you're serving and more about how you're serving the people. And I hope that's going to be the case because both of these parties are sort of closed loops, and you just can't run an organization that way. And what we're seeing in Los Angeles, that was building up, you've got people that are now on the council, the DSA members that are the socialist group still talking about defunding the police and closing the jails. I mean, this is insanity. I don't understand. When you look down the future, where does that get you? What are you accomplishing? And I hope that certainly in the city of LA and the state of California, we're coming back to center. We went way far out, and now we're coming back to center where there's a balance to it. But, Sam, I think that people literally need to realize. This sounds so corny, but it's so true. Their vote really does matter. And so many people choose not to vote for whatever reason. And to me, the big wake up call is get out there and vote and make sure you're voting for the right person. Because those that like the dsa, they do that. They're very good organizing, they're very good getting their people out. And now you've got four DSA members on the council. That's a serious problem.

[Sam Harris]

Yeah, I mean, so I'm glad you mentioned the nonpartisan aspect here because obviously the Republicans can't quite take a victory lap here in the sense that they're complaining about our lack of preparedness and our lack of infrastructure. But they're precisely the people who in years past would have not wanted to have spent money preparing for anything. They just want lower taxes. So it's like you really can't have it both ways. This requires real investment, which requires real money.

[Rick Caruso]

Except I think a lot of people would say, and I tend to agree with, I don't mind being taxed, but use my money in the right way. Right. I don't mind paying more tax, but use it in the right way. That adds to quality of life, that adds to the safety, that creates better neighborhoods, a better environment, all of those things. But don't waste my money.

[Sam Harris]

Yeah, that's what is. So there's a few things that are so socially corrosive here that leads to cynicism about government. I mean, one is just the point you just raised that we have so many activists and ideologues left of center in this state who will say things like, defund the Police, even in the aftermath of arson and looting that gave us half the chaos we just lived through. I think the role of arson remains to be seen. But I mean.

[Rick Caruso]

Well, it happened again last night. The rest of the guy.

[Sam Harris]

Yeah, I mean, there has been arson. I don't know if the initial fire in the Palisades was arson, but there was certainly arson. There was arson from homeless people. We've got this problem with homeless people for which we have not found a solution. I mean, back during the George Floyd riots, it was not at all obvious that the police were going to stop people from going into homes in places like Santa Monica. Right. It was just the police, it seemed to me, were much better. And the National Guard response came early in this crisis. So I think there was a noticeable change there. But the idea that especially during a public emergency, that we don't have a stake in maintaining law and order and that it's somehow a sign of compassion to just allow for a free for all of looting. I mean, this is. I don't know if you remember this or have ever crossed your desk. This is now four years old. But during the George Floyd riots, there was an editorial published by npr, our highest brow radio station, that looting is good and acceptable. Looting is a kind of new form of restitution. So that thing needs to be purged from our conversation. I mean, those people will still exist, but the Democratic Party in particular needs to understand that they don't have to be listened to ever again. These are not voices that need to be responded to, noticed, worried about. You can't be defenestrated by these people if you don't care about them. And again, this all comes back to competence and sane compassion. Compassion that actually understands the causes of human suffering and goes to mitigate those. If your house is burning, the cause of your suffering now are the flames. Right? It's not the skin color or gender preference of the firefighter who's showing up.

[Rick Caruso]

That's right. I would add, though, if you don't mind, please. I think competence needs to be married with backbone and courage. And one of the things that I've seen, I think we've all seen with elected officials, their real priority is to get reelected. And so a lot of the decisions they make, they make through that lens. That doesn't necessarily get you to the right decision. Usually it doesn't. Sometimes maybe it will. Usually it doesn't.

[Sam Harris]

And they have a time horizon over to make a long term investment that's expensive, doesn't marry well to your time horizon. Where it's two years or four years or six years, whatever.

[Rick Caruso]

You're worried about your sound bite for your campaign. That's right. I learned a lot when I was president of the police Commission because I had a situation, I inherited a situation where we had a very, very popular Chief of police, Bernie Parks, who came out of central casting, looked great, handsome guy, wore the uniform great. Been with LAPD years. He was just not the right manager, a bad manager. And he put in policies after Rodney King that became so draconian to the cops in terms of the system for filing any kind of grievance that it basically forced the cops career to stop until that grievance was adjudicated, which could take a year to two years. So what happened? The cops aren't stupid. They started not policing as proactively because they didn't want to get a complaint. The gangs aren't stupid. They started filing complaints against cops so the cops wouldn't go into the gang's areas. So we had crime spiking. We had an unhappy workforce. We had cops that were leaving because they didn't want to be part of that system and Parks wouldn't change it. And we had a consent decree which he didn't want to follow. So me and my fellow commissioners made the tough decision that we're going to fire him. And there's a whole backstory on that. And then my choice and the commission agreed with me and Jim Hahn agreed with me at the time, was Bill Bratton. So now I'm going to remove this guy that has been part of the system for a long time, beloved by the city. I literally had. My wife would call me and say, you know, Rick, they're burning you in effigy outside of City hall right now. They were marching on the Grove as we were under construction to put pressure on me, stopping construction. It was just insane. And I would say to Tina, I would say, I'm going to be home for dinner. Don't worry about it. We're going to do what's right here. And I called Jim Hahn and I said, I'm going to tell you that I'm going to select Bill Bratton, and he has to approve that as the mayor. And I said, I also want to tell you, you can fire me at any time you want, but I'm going to bring you who I think is the best, and that's going to be Bill, but it's going to be a political hot potato.

[Sam Harris]

I forget, did Bratton come from the NYPD or is that nypd?

[Rick Caruso]

So you take this guy not from lapd, you take a guy with a Boston accent. Doesn't look like whatever brilliant cop, by the way. And to Jim Hod's credit, he says, just do what you think is right. What I learned from that exercise, it is so liberating when you're in a position to make a decision where you're not worried about the consequence of the decision. You're just worried about, is it the right decision. And that decision did result in crime in LA getting back down to levels not seen since 1950. Leadership matters. Good decisions matter. Backbone matters.

[Sam Harris]

Also. Bad incentives are so corrosive. What you just named there was this perverse wheel of essentially stigmatizing policing where the police don't want to be complained about because it causes consequences for them. Everyone knows this. So you can complain about the police to keep them out of your neighborhood. That's an incentive problem that needs to. I mean, there's probably a hundred of those that need to be recognized and flipped.

[Rick Caruso]

It's also an insanity loop. Cause you're just creating your own insanity over and over again. And we have that now. That's why we're so short of cops. Because so many of the cops in Los Angeles are under such constrained rules that they're just. They don't want. They don't feel like they're being policed. And I'm not talking about cops that want to go do bad things or take advantage of people. I'm talking about cops that take great pride in being proactive and protecting a community.

[Sam Harris]

Right.

[Rick Caruso]

But the rules that Garcetti has put in when he was mayor, that have remained under Bass, allow crime to rise because police are not allowed to be proactive.

[Sam Harris]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, so how do we change that? I mean, how can we use this moment of rebuilding to solidify some gains in political sanity here?

[Rick Caruso]

I'm not sure I know the answer to that. I'm sure I don't know probably the answer to that. I really hope, Sam, that people have from all different backgrounds and political beliefs and whatnot, woken up to. What you're saying is, let's just hire competent people for the quality of life that we want and not worry about this whole ideology system that we were so married to for such a long time.

[Sam Harris]

My feeling is that so much of this is a while it's often not explicit, so much of it is responsive to the problem of wealth inequality. So much of concern about identity politics is being driven by a perception of class difference. Because there's obviously a significant correlation between Class difference and difference in racial outcomes because of the way wealth is spread around. And all of that class difference correlates with academic outcomes and health outcomes. So there's a lot that's attached to this issue of the inequitable spread of resources in our society. And I feel like we're reaching some kind of tipping point, if we haven't reached it already, where rich people, it seems to me, are just. They're worried about class war, right? They're worried about themselves. They want their freedom to make money and freedom to live beautiful, happy, creative lives. They want to be insulated from the chaos of the world. They don't trust government, as you say, to successfully insulate them, because they're worried that if they pay more in taxes, they're not going to see a better fire department. They're going to see a government that wants to spend that money on DEI initiatives for lumberjacks or whatever it is. I mean, like, it's going to be just pissed away on some insane and ideologically driven program. Clearly, what we need is a system where rich people understand their connection to the common good and can see when they pay taxes that the money is spent sanely. So that we have clean streets and orderly neighborhoods and beautiful schools and just all of that should be possible, right?

[Rick Caruso]

Yes, it should.

[Sam Harris]

But when I ask myself how we get from where we are to a fundamentally different relationship from the people who don't have much, their relationship to the reality of inequality to the reality of the rich people in their midst, and from the side of the rich people, I see a role for philanthropy here that I think I don't see how we get around. Because on the side of that, the people who don't have much, I see a tremendous amount of resentment of wealth and some delusional notions about economics. I mean, just the notion due to the writer Balzac, behind every fortune there's a great crime. But you have people like Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders and people at the national level talking in these terms, and I'm sure we have local politicians. Certainly your socialist friends will be talking this way. Just that there's no way to get really, really rich without perpetrating some kind of fraud, Right? And that capitalism is broken if it's producing billionaires. Now, we could go into why that's not true or not likely to be true. But one thing is obvious. We don't want to create an environment in California where rich people just decide, well, it's better. Life is better elsewhere. This environment is hostile to wealth. We have I think it's still the fifth largest economy in the world.

[Rick Caruso]

It is, right? That's right.

[Sam Harris]

And yet we have these two cities, L.A. and San Francisco, which to one or another degree can be viewed as almost failing cities. I mean, they're. And they're the engines of wealth in the fifth greatest economy in the world. Here's one moment, I could be reading too much into this, but when I was online during the height of the fires and I saw it reported that Steven Spielberg's house was saved, I saw all of these cynical comments and even a cynical article and even journalistic efforts that were expressing cynicism, basically saying, well, look, see, look, it must be nice to be rich, right? Look, Spielberg's house was saved. And I knew that most of these people had probably bought a ticket to every one of Spielberg's films for the last 50 years, right? So, like. So that level of resentment and schadenfreude and the stigmatization around wealth seems to me to be so unhealthy and illogical because all these people want to be wealthy, Right. I mean, they would want to be living like Spielberg. I think if they take 10 seconds to think about it, they want to live in a society that is just pulling abundance out of the ether. Right. They want all boats to be rising with a tide of. Of great abundance. And so there's something aspirational about wealth that in another mood, they can tap into. Right. But there is this sense that the system is rigged and people are just in it for themselves. And what I see from the wealthiest rather often is. Yeah, a sense that you can't trust government. Right. So they see the dysfunction of the government, and it just looks like an argument for paying less in taxes, where, in my view, the dysfunction we see in government is an argument for better governance. Right. We should want the government that could spend our tax dollars wisely.

[Rick Caruso]

Absolutely.

[Sam Harris]

But there's a sense that, yeah, you can live behind your walls and you can fly privately and you can get your private security force and your private fire department and you're good. But the reality is, is that again, I told you about a billionaire who lost his home because he didn't have his private fire department. Perhaps. But no matter how wealthy you are, no matter how immunized you are, if you have to step over a homeless person to get in the door of your favorite restaurant in this town, your quality of life is diminished, Right?

[Rick Caruso]

Absolutely.

[Sam Harris]

And if you're living in Bel Air right now, you're breathing the asbestos and the arsenic and the VOCs that are wafting all over this town right now. You don't have your own air. We have to solve this problem together. And so I don't know if you saw this pitch I made on my blog, but I realize I'm giving you a lot to say. You'll get your chance to react, but let me just vomit my socialism on you for a moment. It hurts me that I know you're very philanthropic and I am at my level, and we're surrounded by people who give a lot of money away. I think you just gave $5 million to the fire department, which is wonderful. But the reality is that we. We know people. We know single individuals who could take away all of the financial concerns of this whole area, literally make everyone who lost their home and wasn't insured whole. They could fund everything that's not covered by insurance. Right. I think this is estimated to be a $50 billion problem, and there's 20 billion coming from insurance. Perhaps we know people who could lose $30 billion and nothing would change about their lives, and they could lose 30 billion more and nothing would change. And even 30 billion after that and nothing would change. We know those people. And so obviously, there are things like the Giving Pledge, where you have a lot of rich people who have vowed to give at least 50% of their wealth away at some point, but in most cases, this means upon their death. The pledge I'm imagining is more aggressive than that, and it's based on this recognition that. That at whatever level of wealth you're at, let's say you have a billion dollars, there's some amount of money that truly wouldn't matter to you, that if it went missing, nothing would change about your life. You know how much your kids are going to get. You know how you want to live. You know how many homes you have. And this is true. So this is certainly true. If you have a billion dollars or $2 billion, you are living exactly the way Jeff Bezos lives or Elon Musk's lives. There's no. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that the only thing that changes is that maybe you have a bigger boat. If. Maybe you don't spend 500 million on a boat. If you only have a billion dollars, right?

[Rick Caruso]

Most likely not.

[Sam Harris]

But we're talking about the difference between a billionaire and someone who has 10 billion. And certainly the difference between someone who has 10 billion and someone who has 100 billion. That's not reflected in the style of a person's life. They have all the same homes, they have all the same planes. I mean, it's all the same. And so one could recognize that there's a certain amount of money that will only ever be just a number in a spreadsheet for as long as you live and for as long as your kids live. It is just an idea of how wealthy you are. It's a way of keeping score between yourself and the other wealthy people. What I imagine is that, and this is me trying to, however ineptly and sanctimoniously, trying to move the Overton window around philanthropy, where we get all the rich people. And again, this is not just billionaires, because there are other sort of valleys here where if you have $100 million and you're at the level of $100 million, you're not saving up to buy a $75 million Gulf Stream. So there are certain things that are just off the men. Right. And you might recognize that you would live no differently if you only had $90 million, say. Right. So the argument runs through. But what I'm trying to argue for is that we have a lot of very, very wealthy people, and you and I know many of them by name and have relationships with many of these people. They could pledge to use their money. They could start using their money now on problems like this, and their lives would be completely unchanged. And yet the default norm is to just hold onto it, just to hold onto it till you die. And you will know on your deathbed that you had that amount of money. And whether it's going to your kids or not, you went for decades without relieving all of the suffering and building all the beautiful things that could be built with that money. And in my view, this isn't a matter of people selling their interests in their companies. This is just you could be giving some charitable act of charity an interest in your company. So, anyway, I mean, that's my pitch for much more aggressive philanthropy. So this is like the ultra pledge. This is the extra pledge, the part which you could even. Whatever that number is, you could cut it in half, just in case you thought you needed the other for a rainy day on your yacht. Whatever that number is, there's some number. And in the case of truly wealthy people, the number is so much bigger than anyone actually gives, because I know what people give. And even the people who give a tremendous amount of money, it is in almost every case, it's nowhere near what could possibly show up as a sacrifice of anything in their lives. And what I'm arguing for is not Sacrifice. I'm defining this in terms of the portion, you know, couldn't conceivably impose a sacrifice on you. It's still enormous. So this is the kind of arm twisting you get on this podcast.

[Rick Caruso]

Okay. It's an interesting idea I have.

[Sam Harris]

What's wrong with it?

[Rick Caruso]

Well, let me just start out by saying I think it's always good for people to be generous to the point that it's a little bit painful. So I take a little bit different point of view, I think. I think you have to have. Everybody has to have great generosity, especially people with means. There's no doubt about it. People that I know, and I certainly know how my wife and I run our lives. We give a lot away. We give a lot of money away. We give a lot of our time. Our kids are all involved, and we take great joy in that. It brings us a lot of joy. But I also believe that you've got to be so careful in philanthropy, because just giving away money, depending on where it goes, what it's used for, doesn't solve a lot of the problems.

[Sam Harris]

It's hard to do it. It's hard to do it well, and it can have perverse effects if you do it badly.

[Rick Caruso]

Yeah. It doesn't even mean like, Tina and I spent an enormous amount of time and money with children who are at or below the poverty line, who are living in the toughest circumstances, living in the housing projects of Los Angeles, Nickerson Gardens that need to sleep on the floor because the worry of night of bullets coming through your window, and they're probably. Maybe that family's making $20,000 a year and trying to survive. Dear families, great families. Our money goes to educating those kids, right? Supporting the kids, educating the kids, bringing an ecosystem around those children. And it's amazing how they take off in the success that we've got kids that have been on our program. It's called Operation Progress. It goes from third grade all the way through college. And there's kids now in Harvard and Columbia and SC and UCLA and mit. That to me, is solving a problem. And then those kids hopefully come back into their neighborhoods and they give back at everything.

[Sam Harris]

I think that's fantastic. But that problem is being under resourced. You're doing what you're doing, but what would you do with a blank check?

[Rick Caruso]

It is under resource, Sam. But I was just trying to respond to the idea of giving away a lot of money, like going and giving away a lot of money, I think a lot of times creates more of a problem or makes the problem last longer than solving the problem.

[Sam Harris]

We have bad incentives.

[Rick Caruso]

We have bad incentives. So, listen, I don't know. Most people that I know are really generous and they're not.

[Sam Harris]

They're not. No, no, no, no.

[Rick Caruso]

And I think they are.

[Sam Harris]

Well, no. So I think it's easy to give.

[Rick Caruso]

Away other people's money, too.

[Sam Harris]

The people who.

[Rick Caruso]

Because you don't know the demands.

[Sam Harris]

The people who are middle class or just like moderately wealthy, when they give money, they're often giving a much bigger percentage of their wealth than billionaires are.

[Rick Caruso]

But you don't know the demands. Listen, there's people that are not generous or there's people that don't give as much as they should. Of course there are, but it's easy to sort of generalize. You look at. My wealth is very different than somebody else's wealth that has a public company. Right. My wealth is very illiquid. Somebody that has a public company is very liquid. So the constraints on me giving something away are very different than the constraints on somebody giving away shares in a company. I can't give shares of the Grove. It doesn't work that way. Right. So there's always different levels to it also. But I think.

[Sam Harris]

But anyone could give whatever percentage of their income stream to this new entity, right? I mean, like, they could.

[Rick Caruso]

I mean, we give away on average about 20%. I think that's a very large number.

[Sam Harris]

Well, so. But this. But again, this is me pushing on the Overton window. I mean, because I'm not. I'm twisting your arm. It's a perverse irony that I'm twisting the arm of already a spectacularly generous person.

[Rick Caruso]

That's okay.

[Sam Harris]

By the usual way.

[Rick Caruso]

And I'm trying to be the defending agent of billionaires. That's not where I want to be, or I intended to do that.

[Sam Harris]

No, but I just think it's. Very few people see wealth as. I mean, one of the great things you get to do once you're rich is solve problems for which money is the solution. Right. I mean, like, that is just. It's incredibly rewarding. I mean, to come back to the point you made, like, incredibly rewarding. It's incredibly rewarding. It is a source of. A genuine source of happiness to be able to help people.

[Rick Caruso]

I agree.

[Sam Harris]

And there's just. And the targets, the appropriate targets for that help are practically numberless. Right. I mean, and this is a. You know, we're talking about the rebuilding of Los Angeles, which I think is an important project. But, you know, obviously the need at a global Scale is absolutely enormous. But the point I want to make is that you. And there's no person who wants to feel like they're making a pointless and painful and solitary sacrifice. The retort to much of what I'm saying is like, okay, you can volunteer to pay more in taxes. That's right. No one's stopping you, Sam. Go out there and just double your tax burden. But the sense that that will be ineffectual, the sense that that's not going to matter in the end, that's what makes that just a non starter. But there really is. I just do see that there's a new norm that we could have around wealth where we recognize that one of the great things you get to do when you become not just a billionaire, but a multimillionaire, someone who just has more than they need at any stage, you get to solve problems, you get to help people. And it feels fantastic. And I feel like we're just. There's a landscape of possible kind of social and psychological attitudes toward all of these things we're talking about. And we have found a low spot culturally where there's just like a ridge line of cynicism we have to get over in order to find some happier spots on this landscape. And we're in this low spot where most people think, okay, it's just virtue signaling. You're talking about giving money away and you're just trying to cover the fact that you've just hoarded so much for yourself. And it's like, it's not. You can talk about it being important to you, but we just know that you're holding on to all yourself.

[Rick Caruso]

How do you solve the problem? How do you get people to do that?

[Sam Harris]

You actually just. Well, I think you can demonstrate that it is genuinely rewarding, but I think it's a coordination problem. I think the culture of very wealthy people, the kinds of conversations we have in private, the kinds of things we say we're doing, we need to inspire each other and there needs to be the kinds of things we would. When I'm around a lot of wealthy people, the conversation turns to just like, what are the great places you're vacationing? And how fun is it to talk about that? And it's like, what's that hotel like? And it's fun to just. We want that information and it's just fun to hear about it. And I want to go there and it's all great. There's nothing wrong with that. That's one great thing that money is for. But what I'M not hearing so much when I get into a room filled with super wealthy people are just the amazing things they were able to do to solve people's needless misery because they had the money to do it. Right. And it sounds like a strange. There's this. Maybe it's a quasi Christian ethic, but the idea that you should do this, you shouldn't wear that on your sleeve, you should do this in silence because otherwise you're encouraging the sin of pride or something. But I really think we actually need to be honest about how good this feels and about how this is one of the good things in life. And I mean, honestly, you and I don't know each other. You and I have had exactly one lunch before this conversation. But just being at lunch with you and hearing something about your philanthropy, I forget even how we spoke about it. I mean, you talked about the giving you do around homelessness in downtown la. It just inspired me to. To give a bunch of money away.

[Rick Caruso]

And you gave. You were very generous.

[Sam Harris]

And so at my level, that was like a lot of money to give away, but it was purely based on being inspired by you. Right.

[Rick Caruso]

I appreciate that.

[Sam Harris]

Not enough of that is happening.

[Rick Caruso]

So how do we do more of that? I mean, I love that idea, actually.

[Sam Harris]

Well, I mean, I don't know if you saw the. So I singled out the Resnicks in this blog post because, as I think you probably know, they're being vilified online as some of the major water users in the state. And I don't think there's a direct connection between the water they use and the water that didn't come out of the tap when we needed it.

[Rick Caruso]

Not at all.

[Sam Harris]

But I just. As a way of kind of resetting people's sense of this. I just imagined what Linda Resnick or Stuart Resnick could do. If they were feeling the epiphany that I'm trying to urge upon them, she'd.

[Rick Caruso]

Go knock on their door.

[Sam Harris]

Yeah, I might have done it with this blog post, but, yes, I guess you did. They could easily say, listen, we're incredibly fortunate to have lived in Los Angeles for 50 years. We've built amazing businesses here. We've made amazing friends. We have given back to the community in all kinds of ways. You'll notice that there are buildings in this town that have our names on them. But we recognize that this is a totally new moment. And we're in our 80s and we know we're not even gonna live to see the thing we now wanna build, but we want our grandchildren to live in the most beautiful city in the world for the rest of this century. So we're gonna give 90% of our resources away right now for the reconstruction of this city. And we're not gonna just hand it over to the government for DEI initiatives, obviously, but we're going to pull together a team of the best advisors we can pull together, and in concert with the same administration.

[Rick Caruso]

Amazing.

[Sam Harris]

And we invite all of our rich friends to join us. We've got 12 billion. We're going to give 10 billion right now. So the 10 billion share in all of our enterprises is now going to this project, and we've still got 2 billion. We're going to drive the same cars and live in the same house, and we've got no problems, obviously. But this is what we're doing, and this brings us joy. Now, I don't see how it's possible to be cynical about that. That just seems like an intrinsically good thing. And it just seems like if they did that, I think it would be so obvious to everyone that, okay, this is why you get rich. This is what wealth is for. This is the best game you could play.

[Rick Caruso]

It would be an amazing thing. No doubt it would be an amazing thing. And I wish more people would do that. And some people have given away, you know, the majority, if not all, of their fortunes. I mean, you read about that, so it does happen. But I would also say on that, just reflecting back as you were talking, and I would imagine the Resnicks are very generous on their own, but it takes, again, it's a role of a city leader to help do that. And a guy who was really great at that was Dick Reard. And Dick Reardon, as mayor, he wanted to get certain things built or certain cultural institutions stronger and on and on and on. And he would call around and he would start out by saying, I'm putting up X and I'd like you to match X. And he did that until he raised the money. And I was usually often the recipient of that call, but I always admired him for doing that. That's good leadership, and I do hope that happens more. But here's what I see. Tina and I did do that lead gift you mentioned for the fire department. We didn't do it for publicity. We did it because the fire department has been so underfunded, it needs the equipment. And we wanted a challenge to raise $20 million. Tina and I were convinced that this city. There's enough people in the city that will rally around it. We raised the $20 million in less than a week. It's pretty remarkable, right? The fire department told us their ability now to do things is forever changed. They didn't have, like, bulldozers to move earth during these fires. It was crazy. So what we plan on doing is rinse and repeat. Rinse and repeat to help the area in the Palisades and in Altadena also. And hopefully more people will do that. Now, I'm not saying I'm going to go give away 90% of my net worth, because if I gave away 90% of my net worth, I wouldn't be able to keep my businesses going.

[Sam Harris]

Well, I think there's. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but there's got to be a way to do something like this while maintaining your business.

[Rick Caruso]

You pick that number that works.

[Sam Harris]

But, I mean, if mark Zuckerberg gave 90% of his interest in Facebook away today, he would just retain all of his super voting rights. I mean, he would take control of the company, and the money would still just flow to this entity that he had set up. That's not when he dies in a thousand years, once he solves the problem of aging. But now it would start working now.

[Rick Caruso]

It'd be a beautiful thing. I can't argue with that. I mean, especially at that level of kind of wealth, it would be a beautiful thing. But I also think there's a beautiful thing in the power of people coming together at every level. Like they did for the fire department Foundation. We had people put up 2 million. We had people put up $200, but collectively, 20 million bucks in a week. And that was just awesome.

[Sam Harris]

Yeah.

[Rick Caruso]

So we're gonna do more of that.

[Sam Harris]

Well done. Well, Rick, I hesitate to ask your future aspirations politically because I want to twist your arm that direction. Is there anything you want to talk about on the horizon? Do you have thoughts about running for anything?

[Rick Caruso]

I love public service, so it's in my blood. I've done it for a long time.

[Sam Harris]

Would you run for governor? Would you run for mayor again? What's possible?

[Rick Caruso]

I don't know. I really don't know. And I'm not trying to be the typical politician that says, I don't know. I just really don't know. I loved running for mayor. I love the campaign. I love being with the family. I love meeting people around the city. It was just. It was so rewarding for us. We loved it.

[Sam Harris]

That's a good sign, because it looks excruciating to someone who's not built that way. It looks. I mean, that's the barrier. The idea that it would just be torture to go through the process.

[Rick Caruso]

Yeah. Yeah. But what I didn't expect was the fuel and the energy I got by seeing people becoming hopeful that someone was gonna help them come to their rescue. That so many people that don't have a voice, don't feel like they're ever heard, that are sort of lost in the system. And in a lot of these neighborhoods, I mean, there was a lot of hugs and a lot of crying. It was just. It was wonderful. So from that standpoint, I loved to do it. What I hated about it was the Democratic Party so scared that I was gonna come into their tent, that they. They rallied like never before in a mayor's race. The president flies out, Biden flies out, Harris flies out, campaigns for Bass, Pelosi, Bernie flew out. I mean, they were all flying out. And up to the point, right before the election, we were still.

[Sam Harris]

You were running as a Democrat.

[Rick Caruso]

Running as a Democrat, but being treated.

[Sam Harris]

As a closet Trumper or treated as a new person.

[Rick Caruso]

And we've got a career politician we're gonna protect. She's part of the system. Up until right before the election, we're still tied. We're right on top of each other from the polling. And then they finally convinced Obama to come into it. Now, whether that moved it or didn't move it or there are other things, I don't know. But to have that kind of energy to stop somebody from getting in just blew my mind. Right.

[Sam Harris]

Yeah.

[Rick Caruso]

Why not just let the system work? So, you know, I would love to serve. I think I could. I know I would work hard. I think I could do a good job. I would certainly do my best, but I just gotta get around the idea of going through that again.

[Sam Harris]

I feel like we're at a different moment. I think a lot of that has been.

[Rick Caruso]

But it's corrupt. Yeah, the system is really corrupt. And you gotta break through that. You gotta break through that.

[Sam Harris]

Yeah. Well, if and when you make that decision, we will have another conversation about it.

[Rick Caruso]

I look forward to it. Okay.

[Sam Harris]

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much for your time. I know it's a very busy couple of weeks, so let's get back out there and keep that suit on. At least one person dresses as a grown up in this town.

[Rick Caruso]

Thanks for having me, Sam. Really enjoyed it.

[Sam Harris]

Thanks. So.