Making Sense with Sam Harris: Episode #401 — Christian Nationalism and the New Right
Release Date: February 18, 2025
In Episode #401 of Making Sense with Sam Harris, titled "Christian Nationalism and the New Right," host Sam Harris engages in a profound and insightful conversation with journalist Kathryn Stewart. The discussion delves into the intricate dynamics of Christian nationalism, the burgeoning influence of the New Right, and their combined impact on American democracy. Harris leverages his forthcoming book, Money Lies in God, as a foundation to explore these pressing socio-political issues.
1. Introduction and Context
The episode commences with Kathryn Stewart introducing Sam Harris and referencing his New York Times op-ed titled "Now Will We Believe What is Happening Right in Front of Us?" Stewart sets the stage by highlighting the complex interplay between various reactionary forces within American politics, including Christian nationalists, oligarchs, and the New Right. She underscores the puzzling alliances and ideological overlaps that seemingly coalesce around figures like Donald Trump, who she describes metaphorically as an "orange monstrosity."
2. Sam Harris’s Background and Money Lies in God
Harris provides a brief overview of his journalistic endeavors and introduces his latest book, Money Lies in God: Inside the Movement to Destroy American Democracy. He outlines the book's focus on the anti-democratic movement, dissecting its components:
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The Funders: Individuals and entities possessing vast wealth who, irrespective of their personal religious beliefs, are unified in their intent to undermine liberalism.
“[...] religiously, they're all over the place. Some are evangelical, some are Catholic, some are Protestant, some are Jewish, some are frankly atheistic or nihilistic [...] but they all agree on the need to crush liberalism.”
[03:27] – Sam Harris -
The Thinkers: Intellectuals associated with the New Right who hold anti-democratic views and draw inspiration from extremist political theorists, including Carl Schmitt.
“[...] many of them also seem quite nihilistic. Some of them actually derive a lot of inspiration from political theorists associated with the Nazis.”
[05:50] – Sam Harris -
The Rank and File: The general supporters who align with anti-democratic candidates without necessarily adopting the full ideological spectrum of the movement.
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The Sergeants and Power Players: Influential political pastors and religious activists who mobilize and connect with the grassroots base.
3. Unpacking Project 2025
A significant portion of the conversation centers around Project 2025, a comprehensive policy document by the Heritage Foundation aimed at reshaping American governance. Kathryn Stewart raises concerns about its implementation and the apparent disconnect between Donald Trump's public disavowal and the actual involvement of his administration members in the project.
“[...] Project 2025 is a kind of marriage of the New Right and the Christian Right and the Christian nationalist movement. It's like those two influences comprise the power couple of the anti-democratic movement.”
[09:49] – Sam Harris
Harris corroborates Stewart's observations, emphasizing the document's extensive length (900 pages) and the active role of former Trump administration members in its execution. He highlights the strategic alliance between the New Right and Christian nationalism as pivotal in advancing anti-democratic objectives.
4. Defining Christian Nationalism
The duo delves into the nuanced definition of Christian Nationalism, distinguishing it from mainstream Christianity and the broader evangelical movement.
“Christian nationalism is not Christianity. It's not a religion. It's both an ideology and also a kind of political movement.”
[10:11] – Sam Harris
Harris explains it as a mindset and a machine:
- Mindset: An ideology asserting that America was founded as a Christian nation and advocating for laws based on a conservative interpretation of the Bible.
- Machine: An organized political movement with leadership-driven agendas, sophisticated data and legislative initiatives, and extensive networking organizations like the Council for National Policy.
He further discusses how Christian nationalism operates through pastoral networks and organizations that mobilize voters around specific socially conservative issues, thereby supporting an overarching anti-democratic agenda.
5. Intersection with White Supremacy and the Far Right
Stewart and Harris explore the overlap between Christian nationalism and white supremacist movements, noting that while there is some intersection, they are not identical.
“There’s some overlap, but it’s not the same thing. [...] As the movement has gained in strength [...] some white nationalist groups have adopted more of a religious identity.”
[14:08] – Sam Harris
They discuss how groups like the Proud Boys have evolved to incorporate religious identities, thereby broadening their appeal and integrating into the larger Christian nationalist framework. Harris underscores the strategic adoption of religious rhetoric by these groups to legitimize their anti-democratic and often extremist positions.
6. The Role of Oligarchs and Economic Power
The conversation shifts to the influence of oligarchs in perpetuating the anti-democratic movement. Harris elucidates how these wealthy individuals, despite diverse personal beliefs, share a common interest in deregulation and policies that favor their economic standing.
“[...] a lot of these very rich people live in almost like islands, right? They’re surrounded by people who say nice things to them. They have the sense that they can sort of deserve every penny that they earned [...]”
[17:21] – Sam Harris
He elaborates on the defensive posture of the oligarchs, who, insulated from the struggles of the lower and middle classes, perceive policy threats as attacks on their success, thereby fostering support for movements that promise to dismantle liberal institutions.
7. The "Woke" Debate and Politicization of Social Issues
Stewart brings up the contentious issue of "wokeness" and its politicization, highlighting how both the far right and left have leveraged social issues to distract from more pressing socioeconomic problems.
“There’s a massive distraction that has been leveraged quite artfully and cynically by the far right. But it was also a massive distraction on the left for the Democratic Party and all of the elite institutions [...]”
[27:49] – Sam Harris
Harris counters by arguing that far left extremism, while present, often becomes a tool for the far right to vilify entire political spectrums, thereby skewing public perception and undermining substantive policy discussions.
8. The Assault on Truth and Democratic Norms
Towards the episode's conclusion, Harris emphasizes the perilous erosion of the concept of truth within the current political climate.
“One of the most dangerous consequences of this movement is an assault on the idea of truth itself. The idea that truth doesn’t matter.”
[31:46] – Sam Harris
He warns that the deliberate undermining of factual integrity and the propagation of disinformation are fundamental threats to democracy, as they erode trust in institutions and facilitate the rise of authoritarian tendencies.
Notable Quotes
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Sam Harris on the Anti-Democratic Movement:
“It's a movement that frankly has been quite clear about what their aims are. They're not hiding. It's just that a lot of people haven't been listening.”
[03:01] -
On Christian Nationalism as an Ideological Framework:
“It's both an ideology and also a kind of political movement.”
[10:11] -
Regarding Oligarchs’ Defensive Nature:
“They have the sense that they can sort of deserve every penny that they earned [...] And they have policies that benefit their businesses.”
[17:21] -
On the Assault on Truth:
“The idea that truth doesn’t matter.”
[31:46]
Conclusion and Implications
Episode #401 serves as a critical examination of the convergence between Christian nationalism and the New Right, elucidating how their alliance poses significant threats to American democratic institutions. Sam Harris, through his incisive analysis and extensive research presented in Money Lies in God, challenges listeners to recognize and address the subtle erosion of democratic norms fueled by wealth concentration, ideological extremism, and the manipulation of truth. Kathryn Stewart facilitates a nuanced dialogue that underscores the urgency of safeguarding democratic values against these insidious forces.
For those seeking a deeper understanding of these issues, Sam Harris’s Waking Up app offers resources grounded in mindfulness and rational inquiry, aligning with his commitment to fostering a more examined and fulfilling life.
Note: This summary is based on the transcript provided up to the 31:59 timestamp. Portions of the conversation beyond this point, including advertisements and promotional content, have been omitted to focus on the substantive discussion.