#416 — "More From Sam": Biden's Big Lie, Review of Tapper Interview, Trump, & a Case Against Israel's Actions in Gaza

Summary

Making Sense with Sam Harris – Episode #416: “More From Sam”: Biden's Big Lie, Review of Tapper Interview, Trump, & a Case Against Israel's Actions in Gaza

Release Date: May 23, 2025

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In Episode #416 of Making Sense with Sam Harris, host Sam Harris engages in a robust and unfiltered discussion with guests Brett Weinstein, Eric Weinstein, Ben Shapiro, and Jake Tapper. The conversation delves deep into the current state of American politics, focusing on the perceived threats to democracy from both Democratic and Republican leadership, the media's role in political discourse, and contentious issues surrounding President Joe Biden and former President Donald Trump. The episode is a blend of incisive analysis, heated debates, and poignant reflections on the direction of the United States.

1. The State of American Democracy

The podcast opens with a critical examination of the integrity of American democracy. The guests express concerns over actions by both political parties that may undermine democratic principles.

• Brett Weinstein initiates the conversation by contrasting concerns about Donald Trump’s refusal to ensure a peaceful transfer of power with what he perceives as a massive cover-up involving President Biden. He questions whether these situations genuinely threaten democracy or if they exemplify moments when democratic processes were not adequately upheld.

2. Biden’s Cognitive Deficits and the Democratic Cover-Up

A significant portion of the discussion centers on allegations regarding President Joe Biden's cognitive abilities and the Democratic Party’s alleged efforts to conceal these issues.

• Eric Weinstein asserts, “You have to ask the questions. Why would anyone prefer a nearly comatose president to Donald Trump? [02:53]” highlighting his preference for perceived incompetence over outright malfeasance.

• Ben Shapiro and Eric Weinstein delve into the Democratic Party’s handling of Biden’s candidacy, suggesting a deliberate cover-up. Shapiro remarks, “The level of delusion and hubris and... [01:25] dishonesty that birthed that project... [03:15]” indicating deep-seated issues within the party structure.

• Brett Weinstein expresses personal turmoil, stating, “I feel betrayed. I feel like I relied on many of those sources to get this information and get it right. And again, when I saw with my own eyes... [08:38]” underscoring the emotional impact of these revelations.

3. Media’s Role in Political Narratives

The conversation shifts to scrutinize the mainstream media’s role in shaping and sometimes obscuring political narratives.

• Ben Shapiro criticizes the media's failure to adequately report on Biden’s cognitive state, noting, “The media were... [03:28] not being more interested in just how far from Campos Mentis Biden has been...” [03:43]

• Jake Tapper is referenced regarding his book and reporting, with Eric Weinstein stating, “We know this from Jake and Alex's reporting in that book...” [04:40], emphasizing the depth of the alleged cover-up.

4. Donald Trump’s Corruption and Lies

The discussion intensifies as the guests pivot to former President Donald Trump, focusing on his actions and the broader implications for American governance.

• Eric Weinstein labels Trump’s behavior as “a sociopathic level of detachment from the real suffering he's causing...” [16:38], critiquing his disregard for due process and ethical governance.

• Ben Shapiro underscores the constitutional issues surrounding Trump, asserting, “Should be impeached for it... [12:57]” in reference to violations like the emoluments clause.

• Brett Weinstein and Eric Weinstein highlight specific incidents, such as Trump's involvement in questionable hotel deals and the mishandling of deportations, further painting a picture of systemic corruption.

5. Comparisons Between Democratic and Republican Failures

The guests draw parallels between the shortcomings of both major political parties, suggesting that both sides contribute to the erosion of democratic norms.

• Ben Shapiro points out longstanding issues within the Democratic Party, referencing figures like Hillary Clinton and Kamala Harris, and lamenting the loss of progressive leaders like Bernie Sanders: “It screwed Bernie Sanders... [13:49]”

• Eric Weinstein adds, “All of that... [13:57]” acknowledging the cumulative damage to the Democratic machine over the years.

• Brett Weinstein questions the Democrats' strategy and its long-term ramifications: “I mean, it was a..." [06:28].

6. The Role of Advisors and Political Advisors

A critical look is taken at the advisors surrounding both Biden and Trump, examining their influence and accountability.

• Ben Shapiro demands accountability: “All we're gonna wanna know are the names of the people who have enabled... [08:07]”

• Eric Weinstein echoes this sentiment, emphasizing the need for consequences: “The people who covered for Biden... [08:19] ... have discredited themselves fatally.”

7. The Path Toward Potential Fascism

The conversation takes a darker turn as the guests discuss the alarming signs of authoritarianism creeping into American politics.

• Ben Shapiro warns, “Depolitizing agencies like the FBI... [14:25] ... is the road to fascism.”

• Eric Weinstein concurs, stating, “It's a sociopathic level of detachment... [16:50]” and elaborates on how actions taken by political leaders could institutionalize fascist tendencies.

8. Potential Solutions and Reflections

Towards the end of the episode, the guests ponder possible solutions and the future of American political integrity.

• Eric Weinstein contemplates, “I would rather have a president in a coma where the duties of the presidency are executed by a committee of just normal people.” [11:26], suggesting unconventional measures to restore sanity in leadership.

• Ben Shapiro emphasizes the importance of returning to foundational democratic principles: “I would return to the so-called swamp over what we have now and for good reason.” [13:39]

Notable Quotes

• Eric Weinstein on Biden's preference: “You have to ask the questions. Why would anyone prefer a nearly comatose president to Donald Trump?” [02:53]

• Brett Weinstein expressing betrayal: “I feel betrayed. I feel like I relied on many of those sources to get this information and get it right.” [08:38]

• Ben Shapiro on media's negligence: “The media were... not being more interested in just how far from Campos Mentis Biden has been...” [03:43]

• Eric Weinstein on Trump’s detachment: “It's a sociopathic level of detachment from the real suffering he's causing.” [16:38]

• Ben Shapiro on constitutional violations: “Should be impeached for it.” [12:57]

Conclusion

Episode #416 of Making Sense with Sam Harris offers a critical and comprehensive exploration of the tumultuous state of American politics. The guests provide passionate insights into the failures of both major political parties, the media’s complicity in obscuring the truth, and the dire consequences of such systemic issues on democracy. Through incisive analysis and fervent debate, the episode underscores the urgent need for accountability, transparency, and a recommitment to democratic principles to steer the United States away from potential authoritarianism and restore faith in its political institutions.

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For those interested in delving deeper into the topics discussed, subscribing to the full episodes of the Making Sense podcast is recommended. The podcast is ad-free and relies entirely on listener support. To subscribe, visit samharris.org.

Transcript

[Sam Harris]

Welcome to the Making Sense Podcast. This is Sam Harris. Just a note to say that if you're hearing this, you're not currently on our subscriber feed and will only be hearing the first part of this conversation. In order to access full episodes of the Making Sense podcast, you'll need to [e-mail] we don't run ads on the podcast, and therefore it's made possible entirely through the support of our subscribers. So if you enjoy what we're doing here, please consider becoming one.

[Brett Weinstein]

Okay, we're back. Sam. Good to see you, my friend.

[Eric Weinstein]

Good to see you. Yeah, yeah. What's going on?

[Brett Weinstein]

You ready?

[Eric Weinstein]

Anything happening?

[Brett Weinstein]

Oh, nothing happened in the world. But, you know, maybe there's some. Maybe some topics I can. I can hit you with, if you're okay with that.

[Eric Weinstein]

Yeah, let's do it.

[Jake Tapper]

All right.

[Brett Weinstein]

You've been concerned about Donald Trump due to his refusal of a peaceful transfer of power as a threat to democracy, but now we're beginning to see just how massive this Biden cover up was. And in the past, we also saw Bernie pushed out by the democratic elite in 2016. Aren't these also threats to our democracy? And maybe these aren't even threats. Aren't these actual moments where we didn't have democracy?

[Eric Weinstein]

I mean, there's certainly a corruption of our democracy. I mean, they're not ideal. The details of what went into Biden running for a second term and just.

[Ben Shapiro]

The level of delusion and hubris and.

[Eric Weinstein]

Dishonesty that birthed that project, I think that was reading Jake's book. That was very troubling to discover just how deep that went and how unrepentant they all still are. I mean, we had an awful choice, and it's a choice that I think explains how corrupt and corruptible the Democrats.

[Ben Shapiro]

And the media were.

[Eric Weinstein]

From essentially 2016 on, we had a choice between, I think, a genuinely evil candidate.

[Jake Tapper]

Right.

[Ben Shapiro]

I mean, certainly perceived to be evil by half of our society.

[Eric Weinstein]

I mean, this really is the banality.

[Ben Shapiro]

Of evil, because his evil is incredibly banal.

[Eric Weinstein]

But nonetheless, I think he's so outside the norm of what should be acceptable to us politically that it's easy to see that everyone perceived this as a five alarm fire. And we are now, I'll point out, living in the midst of that fire.

[Ben Shapiro]

We're four months into it.

[Brett Weinstein]

But you can't destroy or erode democracy while trying to protect it, right?

[Eric Weinstein]

No, but I mean, it's not so.

[Ben Shapiro]

Clear as all that.

[Eric Weinstein]

It's just that you have to Ask the questions. Why would anyone prefer a nearly comatose president to Donald Trump? Well, that's a measure of how bad people perceive Donald Trump to be. And I can say that I would prefer a comatose president to the president we now have.

[Brett Weinstein]

That's slightly less than half the country feels that way. What about the other half?

[Eric Weinstein]

Well, the other half is voting for Trump. Right. And for reasons that are in many cases also delusional. I mean, you had a QAnon cult behind Trump who thought that Biden was not only too old to be president, but that he was a pedophile and.

[Ben Shapiro]

Siphoning off the adrenochrome of children in basements.

[Eric Weinstein]

I mean, this is the fever swamp of right wing politics that got Biden's infirmity. Right, okay, but look at everything else they threw against the wall.

[Jake Tapper]

Right.

[Ben Shapiro]

It's completely nuts over there.

[Eric Weinstein]

So, yes, the mainstream media has a.

[Ben Shapiro]

Lot to atone for in not being more interested in just how far from Campos Mentis Biden has been at various.

[Eric Weinstein]

Points toward the end of his term and during the campaign.

[Ben Shapiro]

What I take from Jake's book, and.

[Eric Weinstein]

I think this is one of the appropriate lessons to take from it, is that there was a successful cover up. It's not that.

[Ben Shapiro]

I mean, everyone knew he was too old.

[Eric Weinstein]

I mean, certainly he was not an ideal president or much less an ideal candidate. I mean, he was not actually a.

[Ben Shapiro]

Viable candidate in the end.

[Eric Weinstein]

And many of us saw that with increasing clarity over the years. But something was revealed that night on the debate stage when the wheels completely came off. And to say that we knew it all along is to make the claim that nothing was learned during that debate. And that's just not true.

[Jake Tapper]

Right.

[Ben Shapiro]

Maybe Alex Jones, who also thought Biden.

[Eric Weinstein]

Was a pedophile, also knew that he wasn't going to be able to complete.

[Ben Shapiro]

A sentence during the debate.

[Eric Weinstein]

But most people thought this was this revealed something.

[Brett Weinstein]

I did reveal something. I don't think people felt like they learned it for the first time. I felt like they were watching that saying, okay, this is impossible to hide now. This is no longer possible.

[Eric Weinstein]

Well, yeah, no, but the magnitude of it, the gravity of it, the fact.

[Ben Shapiro]

That it was nonrecoverable.

[Jake Tapper]

Right.

[Ben Shapiro]

That was revealed that night to most people.

[Eric Weinstein]

Now, the scandal, the real scandal, is that there were undoubtedly there were people, and we know this from Jake and Alex's reporting in that book, undoubtedly there were people close to the president who saw that sort of thing before and many times before going back years.

[Jake Tapper]

Right.

[Ben Shapiro]

That's the scandal that's the COVID up. And that is a genuine cover up.

[Eric Weinstein]

Because they're hiding that they're lying about that.

[Ben Shapiro]

They're protecting him from exposure so as.

[Eric Weinstein]

To avoid any public viewing of that.

[Jake Tapper]

Right.

[Eric Weinstein]

He's not having cabinet meetings.

[Ben Shapiro]

He didn't have cabinet meetings for nearly a year. And the cabinet meetings he had prior.

[Eric Weinstein]

To that were scripted and weird. And the cabinet cabinet members are sworn to secrecy on some level to not talk about that. I mean, so that's the COVID up. To say that there was no cover.

[Ben Shapiro]

Up and say this was all in.

[Eric Weinstein]

Plain view is just not true. It's just the fact that right of center they were whinging about this for years doesn't mean that there wasn't an effective cover up because there obviously was.

[Brett Weinstein]

There was effective cover up. But I think what happened was, I think a lot of people are claiming that they saw this all along. They were being convinced that what they were seeing with their own eyes wasn't the case. And not only that, they were being told, they were being assholes for even pointing something like this out.

[Eric Weinstein]

And again, I think all of that's bad. That's obviously bad, but crucially, it was.

[Ben Shapiro]

Bad to the point of masochistic self immolation for the Democrats. Right. It's not like it worked out well for the Democrats.

[Eric Weinstein]

It destroyed the Democratic chances for the presidency and beyond.

[Brett Weinstein]

I mean, the Democrats have a problem for a long time now, so.

[Eric Weinstein]

No, but. So it's like the idea that this is how much of this is intentional if it's synonymous with hitting a brick wall at 100 miles an hour.

[Jake Tapper]

Right.

[Eric Weinstein]

I mean, it's just, it was a.

[Ben Shapiro]

Disaster for the Democrats.

[Eric Weinstein]

So the Democrats screwed up. And I think the honest accounting of what happened there is that like almost everything else we're complaining about in public these days, it was a coordination problem.

[Ben Shapiro]

I mean, you had all these people who couldn't get on the same page about this obvious slow motion train wreck.

[Jake Tapper]

Right?

[Brett Weinstein]

Right.

[Eric Weinstein]

How could they get Biden to not be a candidate when he was adamant.

[Ben Shapiro]

That he was fine to run for a second term?

[Eric Weinstein]

There's no good way to do it. And they're all living in this hall.

[Ben Shapiro]

Of mirrors where the first person to express doubt about his viability is the first person to show disloyalty and will be fatally compromised in their career prospects thereafter. Right.

[Eric Weinstein]

So it's an incentive structure that fucked everyone up. But it was not this calculated and effective deception. It was a pathological process. And everyone left of center should be unhappy about it.

[Brett Weinstein]

But what happens now? What happens to those people, the advisors that were in charge?

[Eric Weinstein]

Well, I mean, as I wrote after.

[Ben Shapiro]

The debate when he was being slow.

[Eric Weinstein]

To drop out of the race, I wrote this in one of those articles on substack that were increasingly shrill. I said, but if he's not out of the race by Monday, I forget. I think it was the day I called.

[Ben Shapiro]

All we're gonna wanna know are the names of the people who have enabled.

[Eric Weinstein]

This atrocity so that they can.

[Ben Shapiro]

They'll never work in politics again.

[Jake Tapper]

Right.

[Eric Weinstein]

I don't think these people should ever.

[Ben Shapiro]

Work in politics again. I mean, it's a disaster.

[Eric Weinstein]

The people who covered for Biden, the.

[Ben Shapiro]

People who thought he should run even.

[Eric Weinstein]

After that debate should never work in politics again. They have discredited themselves fatally. That's absolutely the case. And you read about them in Jake's book. It's mind boggling the level of self deception that's expressed in that book.

[Brett Weinstein]

Yeah, I mean, I find it. I'm embarrassed, I'm humiliated by it. I mean, the amount of times I've had to lean on CNN to explain something that, where they help me obviously see with my own eyes from being told, guys, there are people that are talking. And I guess my point with Jake is that he could have been a little bit more of an intrepid journalist and asked more of the questions. I know he said, I wish I would have done that more, but I just, I feel betrayed. I feel like I relied on many of those sources to get this information and get it right. And again, when I saw with my own eyes.

[Eric Weinstein]

But you have to. I mean, I. It's true. I mean, I think there's, there's enough.

[Ben Shapiro]

Embarrassment to go around in the mainstream media, but it is also true that.

[Eric Weinstein]

Biden was effectively hidden to a degree that is unprecedented.

[Brett Weinstein]

But why aren't you asking every single day, where is he? Where is he? Where's his cognitive test? Where is the man? If that were Trump, they would have done that every single day. They would have said every day some.

[Ben Shapiro]

Of that was happening.

[Eric Weinstein]

I mean, you know, the fact, you know, I remember whenever there was something important for the president to communicate about and he wasn't communicating about it. I mean, post October 7th, there were.

[Ben Shapiro]

Many moments when we needed a president who could come forward and make the.

[Eric Weinstein]

Case for why the US Was standing with Israel in the conflict with Hamas and we did not have. I think he made some attempts at communicating about that, but it was clear.

[Ben Shapiro]

That his deficits as a communicator were actually causing problems for society at that point.

[Eric Weinstein]

And I think I said as much in some context, probably on my own podcast. I mean, yes, the separation between the.

[Ben Shapiro]

Two parts of the job, the decision.

[Eric Weinstein]

Making component of the job and the.

[Ben Shapiro]

Communication, persuasion component of the job.

[Eric Weinstein]

Yes, the decision making component of the job is important. And I think, as I said when I was talking to Jake, and as I said, I think some years before when we were all talking about Biden being compromised, it's at least intelligible to say, okay, he's not a good communicator. He was never a good communicator.

[Ben Shapiro]

He's only getting worse.

[Eric Weinstein]

You can't reliably stick him in front.

[Ben Shapiro]

Of a microphone and trust that something.

[Eric Weinstein]

Good is going to come out of his mouth. But the truth is that when you.

[Ben Shapiro]

Sit with him and deliberate about the.

[Eric Weinstein]

War in Ukraine or anything else, he is compos mentis.

[Ben Shapiro]

He clearly understands the issue as well as he ever did. He's just not a fluid speaker and less and less fluid by the hour. That is a neurologically speaking. That is an intelligible claim to make about a person. That's what I assumed was true.

[Eric Weinstein]

That because of how effective this cover up was, I no longer believe that.

[Ben Shapiro]

To have been true.

[Jake Tapper]

Right.

[Eric Weinstein]

I think it's quite possible that he was just checked out to a degree that I did not suspect at the time. But to close the loop on this.

[Ben Shapiro]

Whole scandal, even that is preferable to.

[Eric Weinstein]

Me and to, I think, many Democrats than having someone who we consider to be genuinely evil, genuine, genuinely 100% purposed to serving himself in the office of the presidency. I would rather have a president in a coma where the duties of the presidency are executed by a committee of just normal people.

[Brett Weinstein]

Right, okay, but that would be different if they communicated.

[Eric Weinstein]

If you would take a random out of a Starbucks, I would prefer to an evil president. And that's the choice that many of us believe was before us. And so therefore not much materially changes once you reveal just how insane and.

[Ben Shapiro]

Despicable this cover up of Biden's infirmities actually was.

[Brett Weinstein]

But Sam. But how you get there matters. And it would be one thing if those people told the American people, hey, he's not compost. Mentis, we're going to take it from here. We know what we're doing, we're fine. But that didn't happen. And I mean, just the scale of things. Trump's out there making hotel deals and I know that's embarrassing. And this is a bit of a Sophie's Choice but you really would rather not have been betrayed by your own president than have somebody out in the open just, you know, with his kleptocracy, getting he and his friends rich.

[Eric Weinstein]

No, but the problem with Trump runs.

[Ben Shapiro]

Much deeper than that.

[Eric Weinstein]

I mean, that. That is totally disqualifying in a president. It's illegal. I mean, I think it is the.

[Ben Shapiro]

Very definition of unconstitutional.

[Eric Weinstein]

Given the emoluments clause, I think he.

[Ben Shapiro]

Should be impeached for it.

[Jake Tapper]

Right.

[Eric Weinstein]

I mean, I don't have an expectation.

[Ben Shapiro]

That he will be.

[Eric Weinstein]

But the liability of having Trump in.

[Ben Shapiro]

The White House, in my view, runs much, much deeper than that. And I've spoke. There's probably a hundred hours of me talking about this on my podcast and others.

[Eric Weinstein]

I just, I think to have an.

[Ben Shapiro]

Empty Oval Office would be better.

[Eric Weinstein]

I mean, that's to say that there's lots of other normal career politicians who.

[Ben Shapiro]

Have been deputized in the State Department.

[Eric Weinstein]

And other parts of the executive branch.

[Ben Shapiro]

To make normal decisions that are not.

[Eric Weinstein]

Thinking about their hotel deals and their meme coin that it's normal politics.

[Ben Shapiro]

The swamp. I would return to the so called swamp over what we have now and for good reason.

[Jake Tapper]

Right.

[Ben Shapiro]

And that's been obvious for now, 10 years.

[Eric Weinstein]

Right. So all the problems with Hillary Clinton, all the problems with Kamala Harris, I've never been shy to acknowledge those.

[Jake Tapper]

Right.

[Eric Weinstein]

All the problems with the Democratic machine as it is.

[Ben Shapiro]

Yes. It screwed Bernie Sanders.

[Eric Weinstein]

All of that.

[Ben Shapiro]

Price all of that in.

[Eric Weinstein]

I think it is worse to have.

[Ben Shapiro]

A president who values nothing but loyalty.

[Eric Weinstein]

In the people he appoints to run our government. I mean, the fact that we've got.

[Ben Shapiro]

Kash Patel running the FBI, and the.

[Eric Weinstein]

FBI is now weaponized against private citizens who are being, quote, investigated and thereby.

[Ben Shapiro]

Bankrupted simply because they were against President.

[Eric Weinstein]

Trump at some point in the past. You know, that's the road to fascism.

[Jake Tapper]

Right.

[Eric Weinstein]

That's much worse than having having normal people pulled out of a Starbucks who.

[Ben Shapiro]

Would be appropriately awed by the responsibility.

[Eric Weinstein]

Given to them run the country.

[Brett Weinstein]

Yeah. I just want to take a quick comedy break. When you said Cash Patel, did you see that video with he and Dan Bongino having to defend that Epstein?

[Sam Harris]

No.

[Brett Weinstein]

Stuff.

[Jake Tapper]

No.

[Brett Weinstein]

You didn't see it?

[Eric Weinstein]

No, no.

[Brett Weinstein]

Oh, you got to see it.

[Eric Weinstein]

They basically watch it with pleasure and horror, no doubt.

[Brett Weinstein]

Well, they're now on the other side having to defend themselves from the conspiracy theories. They're literally saying things like, look, I know a suicide when I see one.

[Ben Shapiro]

Oh, really?

[Eric Weinstein]

That's.

[Ben Shapiro]

That's delicious. Both.

[Brett Weinstein]

He And Dan Bondo. Oh, it's, it's, that's fantastic. It's. Happy watching.

[Jake Tapper]

Yeah.

[Brett Weinstein]

Yeah. Anyway, I'm sorry I derailed this, but I want to get back to it because there's just something we talked about last time where I just, I said this last time. There's something more off putting and gross to me about lying and in secrecy than there is out in the open. And I know that's probably more of an irrational, an emotional thought than irrational.

[Eric Weinstein]

But it's not all out in the open. There's a lot out in the open. And you have to imagine that that's the tip of the iceberg of corruption.

[Jake Tapper]

Right.

[Eric Weinstein]

To grade Trump on a curve so fully that the visibility of his sins are exculpatory.

[Jake Tapper]

Right.

[Eric Weinstein]

It's just pure delusion.

[Ben Shapiro]

Right. You have no idea what you don't.

[Eric Weinstein]

Know about what he's into. And we already know he lies more than any other person that can be named anywhere in public life. So the idea that he's not covering anything up is, just doesn't fly.

[Brett Weinstein]

Again. I mean, the Trump lies to me. I don't know why. And we'll have to understand this or get some psychologist of some or sociologist or someone to explain this, but it just feels like when he's called, it says he's got a building that's 20 stories tall and it's only 10. I just don't really care. Or some of the other lies, they just feel. Of course, it's corrupt to be both policymaker and the deal.

[Eric Weinstein]

Deport someone to a torture room in El Salvador and then laughs about it at the Oval Office and says he.

[Ben Shapiro]

Can'T get him back.

[Jake Tapper]

Right, yeah.

[Brett Weinstein]

I'm not defending that.

[Eric Weinstein]

That's a lie. It's a lie that he can't get him back.

[Ben Shapiro]

He can get him back in an hour.

[Jake Tapper]

Right.

[Eric Weinstein]

It's a sociopathic level of detachment from the real suffering he's causing.

[Ben Shapiro]

Admitting that this person was sent in error to El Salvador and admitting that.

[Eric Weinstein]

The process was so haphazard that we've probably sent 50 people who we really don't know whether they're innocent or guilty in the first place because there was no due process.

[Ben Shapiro]

I mean, there's just layers of this, the layers of the damage done to.

[Eric Weinstein]

Our society, to our system, the way we've edged toward fascism just by throwing due process out the window.

[Ben Shapiro]

All of that's an unacknowledged harm.

[Brett Weinstein]

Yeah, okay. But the damage to our system, you're right. The big lie was terrible. The big lie was about one person lying about becoming president versus the Biden lie, which is a person lying about being president. That's a big problem.

[Eric Weinstein]

But again, you have to acknowledge the, the clarity and obvious malice of the first lie and the ambiguity and the.

[Ben Shapiro]

Kind of the slow rolling nature of the other lie.

[Eric Weinstein]

I mean, okay, Biden is probably not well placed to understand his deficits because.

[Ben Shapiro]

He'S the one with the deficits, right? I mean, this is just the classic.

[Eric Weinstein]

Case of somebody, for obvious reasons, not wanting to admit that they're no longer competent to drive anymore and now you.

[Ben Shapiro]

Have to have the conversation with them.

[Eric Weinstein]

That it's time to take the keys.

[Ben Shapiro]

From them for the rest of their lives.

[Eric Weinstein]

That's a famously hard negotiation for most.

[Ben Shapiro]

People with their parents.

[Eric Weinstein]

And it's completely understandable that there's a.

[Ben Shapiro]

Lot of self serving bias and delusion creeping into on the side of the.

[Eric Weinstein]

Person who thinks that no, no, nothing much has changed and I can still.

[Brett Weinstein]

Drive, which Sam, it's the same thing you're talking about. This is the President, United States. And I know you're not talking about Biden himself and I know you're going to go into, well, it's the people around him. But this is a, this is a grave sin. This is a big problem that it's not just like grandpa taking with the keys. This is the country.

[Eric Weinstein]

But there's no bright line. It's not a lie that has a bright line. Because if you see him.

[Brett Weinstein]

What do you mean a bright line? Everyone could see it. Everyone could see it.

[Eric Weinstein]

And people, everyone could see it on the debate stage, okay? But I don't know.

[Brett Weinstein]

But it was enough what we saw, the excuses we made was enough that we saw that we should have said, okay, this guy's probably not at his best.

[Eric Weinstein]

So it was absolutely obvious to me.

[Ben Shapiro]

That after that debate, what should have happened is that he should have resigned and handed the presidency to Kamala Harris, right? And then she should have campaigned as president for a few months.

[Eric Weinstein]

That would have been.

[Sam Harris]

If you'd like to continue listening to this conversation, you'll need to [e-mail] Once you do, you'll get access to all full length episodes of the Making Sense podcast. The Making Sense podcast is ad free and relies entirely on listener support. And you can subscribe now at samharris.

[Eric Weinstein]

Org.