Unknown Guest (2:25)

Well, it is a thankless job, so thank you for it.

Unknown Host (2:28)

Well, thank you for making the time for us because I do think that many in the audience do enjoy hearing more from you. And so we're going to do more of these as long as that is the case. All right. Yesterday, Elon Musk tweeted, I'm sorry, but I just can't stand it anymore. This massive, outrageous, pork filled congressional spending bill is disgusting abomination. Shame on those who voted for it. You know you did wrong. You know it. Any thoughts there, Sam?

Unknown Guest (2:52)

The first thing I notice is the phrase anymore. Right. So, like, just how long has he been putting up with the stupidity and incompetence that he can now no longer stand? I mean, he obviously, he's been shilling for this administration to a degree that would be impossible to exaggerate on his own account. He loves Donald Trump more than any, as much as any straight man can love another man. We'll see how long that lasts.

Unknown Host (3:13)

And Trump was right about everything, too.

Unknown Guest (3:15)

Yeah, Trump was right about everything. He has shown nothing but contempt for anyone who would take the opposite side of that debate to any degree. I mean, I don't know how to interpret his utterances at this point. The man seems so dysregulated. I mean, having watched that press conference last week, or at least long sections of it, something's obviously not right with him psychologically.

Unknown Host (3:41)

Right. Well, he had apparently a phone call with Speaker Mike Johnson on Monday and he said that Elon Musk seemed to understand the virtues of the legislation and he was very disappointed and surprised to hear him come out, I guess, a couple days later.

Unknown Guest (3:55)

Yeah. So I think Elon is capable of surprising a lot of people. It seems he's one person one moment, another person the next. I certainly have experienced that surprise over a longer time. Course.

Unknown Host (4:08)

Does it not concern you that he couldn't make a real dent in reducing the debt? I mean, it looks like Trump's new bill could add 2.4 billion to the debt. And I mean, Elon, for all of his, all the stuff you say about him, he's obviously quite gifted in some areas. And the fact that he just took a wrecking ball and still ended up, I mean, just in some accounts ended up adding more to the debt.

Unknown Guest (4:32)

Yeah, I mean, we're going to find out more about what Doge actually accomplished. I think at this point it's Pretty easy to see that the main thing it accomplished was chaos and the reduction of morale among otherwise well intentioned and competent people in our government and colossal brand damage for Elon and his companies. And that's the main effect. Yes, he found some waste and abuse, presumably, but I think that the lesson that people are drawing now is that there's not nearly as much fraud or waste or abuse to be found in government spending as many of us would expect. Elon claimed he was going to find 2 trillion, then he knocked that down to 1 trillion. He claims to have found something like 150 or 170 billion. I think estimates are that it's much less than that. And that perversely, all of this chaos may have in fact added cost to the government. I mean, it's been a disaster and it should be viewed as a disaster. I mean, I'm sure right of center they still imagined great things were accomplished because of the level of lying, frankly, that Elon and Trump perpetrated. I mean, they stood before the country and said that millions of people are receiving Social Security checks and they're 150 years old or, you know, otherwise dead. That's just not true. Right? They lied about that. Trump said it, I think, in his State of the Union lying about that. I'm sure Elon is still lying about that. And that sits atop a long list of lies. It's just the truth of the matter, per Matt Iglesias substack article this morning, is that Social Security just had some weird practice of keeping lots of void accounts still on the books for some data keeping bureaucratic principle that I don't understand. But no one was getting these checks and everyone knew over there that no one was getting these checks. And the Doge team just didn't know how to interpret what they saw there. And they quite recklessly announced to the world that millions of people were getting paid. And that's just everything you hear about what they were up to suggests a level of callousness and contempt and recklessness. Those moods were their guiding principle. And again, it remains to be seen whether the real goal was efficiency and not just the demoralization of the so called deep state. Right. I mean, certainly that has been announced by people like Russell Vogt. The goal is to have everyone working for the government get up in the morning and feel nothing but depression and terror or something that was, that's not the verbatim quote, but pretty close. Just to be afraid to come into work because of how fucking awful their lives are. Do we really Want an approach to government that maximizes for that attitude.

Unknown Host (7:24)

Given this fallout. Both of these men are two of the most powerful people in the world and they have massive platforms and they're petulant and they're babies and they're bullies. How do you feel about what could happen between the two of them?

Unknown Guest (7:36)

I hope they collide appropriately and we get to see in the scattering of controversy their true characters. At this point, I mean, I just think our society has to. Our culture, politically and elsewhere, has to lose its patience with failures of integrity and dishonesty. Above all, we should want competence and integrity from the people who purport to be guiding our society towards some end. Right. And insofar as people are revealed to be liars and crooks and double dealers and just fatally compromised by their own conflicts of interest, you know, just avaricious lunatics of the sort that we see in Trump and company. You know, his rapacious family that's just drifting, you know, is on everything that can be put within arm's reach. We should lose our patience for this. I mean, this is disgusting. Right. It's like we have to feel a capacity for moral revulsion over this sort of stuff. This is not normal. This is not much less good. And how we get to the point where we all just vomit in unison, I don't know. But I mean, we have to get there.

Unknown Host (8:46)

Yeah, well, I mean, is it possible that we needed a Trump or a must type or both of them and Doge to begin to pop the hood?

Sam Harris (8:55)

No.

Unknown Guest (8:55)

To realize how bad Trump and Musk and Doge are?

Unknown Host (8:58)

No, no, no, no. To realize. To start taking the debt seriously. I mean, do you really think if Kamala Harris was elected, we'd be doing that? Do you think there'd be an abundance move? I mean, is there some credit that goes there?

Unknown Guest (9:09)

I mean, it's a. Interesting question, but basically you're saying that any kind of pendulum swing back to sanity can be credited to just how bad things have gotten. Well, okay, but like, do we have to rush toward the cliff in order to finally. To be safe? I mean, no, I think.

Unknown Host (9:27)

No, I'm saying we were rushing toward the cliff. No one was addressing.

Unknown Guest (9:31)

We're still rushing toward the cliff. I mean, we still haven't figured out an appropriate response to the debt.

Unknown Host (9:37)

Okay, but the last administration wasn't focused on. On that.

Sam Harris (9:40)

No.

Unknown Guest (9:41)

And then. Nor is this one, apparently right. Is adding trillions.

Unknown Host (9:44)

Well, this one is at least pretending.

Unknown Guest (9:45)

To, but it's not even pretending to at this point. That's why Elon can't stand it anymore. You know, anymore is probably means the last 30 seconds, but he can't stand it anymore. This is an abomination, this bill, on his account.

Unknown Host (9:56)

I'm going to shift gears.

Unknown Guest (9:57)

Yeah, thank you for that.

Unknown Host (9:58)

I know you're going on Jordan Peterson's podcast soon, so I don't want to talk about him for a moment. He's been credited for bringing so many people back to Christianity 2.0. More of the, I guess live and let live Christians versus the 1980s, or I guess the 1480s for that matter. I think there are a number of reasons why Jordan has been so effective here, and I want to come back to him in a moment. But coinciding with his efforts is a massive loneliness epidemic. And it's very real. Given your concerns with religion and the current inability for any other organizations to recapitulate a communal experience in quite the same way religion has been able to. Do you feel differently now about people finding their way back to faith until AI, as you said, maybe could dream up something that solves all of these concerns? Isn't religion a better alternative for some people?

Unknown Guest (10:41)

Well, I don't know. It might be. If you caveat it that way. I think I can probably say, yes, it might be a better alternative for some people, but prison is a good alternative for some people. Is it the best alternative for any person? I doubt it.

Sam Harris (11:00)

Right.

Unknown Guest (11:00)

I mean, just, you know, Christianity. If we could edit the homophobia out of Christianity. If we could edit the expectation that.

Unknown Host (11:08)

But they have, I mean, a lot of new. That's what I'm saying, 2.0.

Unknown Guest (11:11)

Well, no, no, but like, really edit it so that it made absolutely no sense to be homophobic. Like, there's no recourse to the teachings that could get you homophobia.

Unknown Host (11:18)

Okay. But there are a lot of people that are looking away that these days and just don't pay attention to that. Yeah, they're ignoring that. So I think there is a new version of it and people who are looking for purpose and community. After what so many people have seen social media do, it's just ripped society apart. And it's also just made people feel so alone, or it's at least contributed, I believe, in a big way. Why not encourage people, as Jordan has, to find faith? And I'm sure there's other reasons there as well. But for purpose and community, I mean, I don't necessarily understand. The Catholicism part feels very ritualistic. I would imagine people would look for something a little bit more lightweight for their Connectivity. But I kind of get why people are doing it. As somebody who was a former practicing Jew, as I've said this before, I really miss community. And there's just nothing that's replaced that for me.

Unknown Guest (12:08)

Yeah, well, I do think that's a void and we need to fill it. But the question is, can we fill it with something better and more reasonable and not intrinsically divisive, not intellectually embarrassing, doesn't require any lies to oneself or to one's children.

Unknown Host (12:27)

But I think this new brand of Christianity has minimized those sort of self lies.

Unknown Guest (12:31)

But it hasn't really. I mean, listen, it takes me 15 seconds to drill down in a conversation with any Christian to get to the crazy part, right?

Unknown Host (12:38)

Well, I mean, you're still going to hell, but I mean, there's still some benefit.

Unknown Guest (12:41)

Yeah, exactly. I mean, I mean, there is no. If there is no crazy part, then it really isn't fulfilling. That's the thing, right? If there's no chewy center of superstition and otherworldliness and expectation of redemption after death, there has to be some magic in there. Otherwise we're just talking about who's going to bring the egg salad for the picnic. I mean, it's like, can we figure out some other way to picnic? It's not just a tailgate. You're tailgating for God here. You're tailgating for eternity. And that's what makes it especially meaningful. Right. And Jordan doesn't disavow that. I mean, I don't know what I'm going to talk about with Jordan. It's been a very long time since we've spoken and I haven't really followed all of his kind of the vagaries of his.

Unknown Host (13:23)

Well, but you see that clip of him going, well, we're going to talk about that too in a second. Did you see that clip going around with him on the Jubilee podcast episode where.

Unknown Guest (13:32)

I saw that it exists. I actually didn't watch. I think I saw. Maybe I caught part of a clip, but I just decided to not pollute my brain with it in advance of my conversation with him. I just. I mean, I could see that there was some kind of consensus forming online that he had not acquitted himself well in those conversations and.

Unknown Host (13:50)

But do you not want to talk to him about that? I think it'd be very interesting to talk to him about it because he seemed very evasive there.

Unknown Guest (13:56)

I didn't. Well, I just didn't want to prejudice my. Like, I can't imagine he wants to talk to me about it, right? And I don't know what I can say to him. I mean, I listen. I know how Jordan debates atheists because I've debated him. It would be unsurprising to me that if you stuck 20 atheists in a room with him, it wouldn't go very well. It's not like anyone on his side has good answers to the questions atheists pose. There are no good answers, right? I mean the atheists, religious people are slow to recognize it, but they're standing on just a mountain of non sequiturs and they recognize it in other people's faith. I mean, no Christian is convinced by the reasoning of Muslims.

Sam Harris (14:34)

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