#421 — "More From Sam": Political Violence, Iran, Deportations, Protests, & Rapid Fire Questions

Summary

Podcast Summary: Making Sense with Sam Harris

Episode #421 — “More From Sam”: Political Violence, Iran, Deportations, Protests, & Rapid Fire Questions
Release Date: June 17, 2025

In this episode of Making Sense, Sam Harris engages in a dynamic and insightful conversation with an unknown co-host, delving into pressing issues such as political violence, the integrity of leadership, international relations concerning Iran and Israel, and the broader implications of societal norms. The discussion is marked by a fast-paced exchange of ideas, interruptions that add energy, and a focus on uncovering deeper truths behind current events.

---

1. Political Violence in Minneapolis

The episode opens with a discussion on the recent surge in political violence in Minneapolis, highlighting tragic incidents involving state representatives and senators.

• Sam Harris emphasizes the contagious nature of notoriety among shooters, drawing parallels to historical periods of political unrest.
  “It's obviously awful. It's also mimetic. We know that people find this kind of notoriety that shooters get somewhat contagious.” [04:01]

• Political Rhetoric as a Catalyst: Harris critiques the irresponsible political rhetoric from both sides, particularly spotlighting former President Trump’s role in normalizing such violence.
  “Trump... has normalized political violence in several respects. I mean, his response to January 6th was a great act of normalization.” [05:04]

• Civility as a Preventative Measure: The conversation underscores the erosion of civility in political discourse as a precursor to violence.
  “Civility is not just a nice to have, it's really a must have when you're talking about discussing politically polarizing issues.” [07:24]

2. The Role of Leadership and Character Integrity

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the character and integrity of influential leaders, using Elon Musk and Donald Trump as primary examples.

• Impact of Personal Integrity: Harris argues that the lack of concern for the personal integrity of powerful individuals is detrimental to societal stability.
  “We seem to have... half of our society seems to think that the personal integrity of the most powerful people in our society doesn't matter.” [10:35]

• Elon Musk’s Controversial Stance: The conversation critiques Musk’s public statements about Trump, suggesting a lack of moral sensibility and the dangers of having potentially unethical individuals in powerful positions.
  “Either Elon is lying and he's pure evil... Or you trust Elon because... he's been on the inside and he has all the data.” [12:17]

• Normalization of Authoritarian Practices: Harris warns against the acceptance of authoritarian behaviors within political parties, highlighting the Republicans' uncritical support of Trump's actions.
  “This is authoritarian... This is not remotely normal in American politics.” [09:36]

3. International Relations: Israel and Iran

Shifting focus to global politics, Harris addresses the escalating tensions between Israel and Iran, emphasizing the existential threats posed by a nuclear-armed Iran.

• Iran as an Existential Threat: Harris characterizes the Iranian regime as a "theocratic death cult" with explicit genocidal aspirations towards Israel.
  “The Iranian regime is explicitly a, a theocratic death cult... Once we get a bomb, we're going to turn Israel into glass.” [16:00]

• The Importance of Explicit Communication: He underscores the significance of clear and unambiguous rhetoric in international relations, suggesting that explicit threats necessitate strong defensive measures.
  “Words matter. Right. And so if you're bluffing, you know it's on you to not do that again.” [16:15]

• Critique of U.S. Foreign Policy: Harris reflects on missed opportunities in U.S. foreign policy, implying that stronger actions might have mitigated current tensions.
  “This is a commercial for what we should have done years ago, we being the United States.” [17:09]

4. Societal Implications and Future Outlook

The episode concludes with reflections on the broader societal implications of the discussed issues and the potential future trajectory.

• Normalization of Extreme Politics: Harris expresses concern over the potential normalization of extreme political behaviors and the possession of power by psychologically unstable individuals.
  “If you have the most self-interested, unethical people you can find, give them basically all the power human beings can have, and you could just expect everything to work fine.” [10:40]

• Call for Psychological Normalcy in Leadership: He advocates for leaders to possess psychological normalcy as a minimum requirement to ensure ethical governance.
  “Psychologically normal people are in charge. Right. And we just don't have that.” [11:34]

• Warnings Against Authoritarianism: The discussion ends on a cautionary note about the dangers of authoritarianism and the erosion of democratic norms.
  “This is authoritarian... This is not remotely normal in American politics.” [09:36]

---

Conclusion

In this episode, Sam Harris provides a critical examination of the current political landscape, emphasizing the dangers of political violence, the importance of leadership integrity, and the escalating tensions in international relations. His insights call for a return to civility, ethical leadership, and responsible rhetoric to navigate the complex challenges facing society today.

---

Notable Quotes:

• “Civility is not just a nice to have, it's really a must have when you're talking about discussing politically polarizing issues.” — Sam Harris [07:24]
• “We seem to have... half of our society seems to think that the personal integrity of the most powerful people in our society doesn't matter.” — Sam Harris [10:35]
• “The Iranian regime is explicitly a, a theocratic death cult... Once we get a bomb, we're going to turn Israel into glass.” — Sam Harris [16:00]

---

For full access to this episode and more insightful discussions, subscribe to the Making Sense podcast at samharris.org.

Transcript

[Sam Harris]

Welcome to the Making Sense podcast. This is Sam Harris. Just a note to say that if you're hearing this, you're not currently on our subscriber feed and will only be hearing the first part of this conversation. In order to access full episodes of the Making Sense podcast, you'll need to [e-mail] we don't run ads on the podcast, and therefore it's made possible entirely through the support of our subscribers. So if you enjoy what we're doing here, please consider becoming one.

[Unknown Co-host]

Hey, Sam, how you doing?

[Sam Harris]

Good. How's it going?

[Unknown Co-host]

Going well. Did you have a nice Father's Day?

[Sam Harris]

I did. You.

[Unknown Co-host]

We don't really do anything. It's. I don't even know how to celebrate.

[Sam Harris]

You don't observe.

[Unknown Co-host]

We don't observe. I feel like every day's Father's Day in my house.

[Sam Harris]

I got one card. I've got two daughters, one card. So that was. It was sweet.

[Unknown Co-host]

That's better than I got. All right, but let me set this series up. All right. Hi, everybody, and welcome to another episode of More from Sam. As a reminder, the goal of the series is to get more from Sam on current events more often and also to share a more fun side of Sam. Sam, you have a fun side. Plenty of heavy shit to discuss, but in this series, we're allowed to have fun doing it. The tone is faster paced, which includes interruptions because they create more energy. I'm here to surface Sam's ideas, so don't get caught up on what you think my actual positions might be. It doesn't matter. Everybody loves a spicy Sam, so I'm going to do what I can to get more of that. And lastly, this series is not meant to be. Thank you. It's not meant to be a replacement for anything. It's simply in addition to what Sam is already doing. Also, Sam has some tour dates coming up this fall that have already been announced. New York and Boston in October are nearly sold out. I think there are about a hundred tickets, last I checked, in each of those cities. And Seattle and Nice job, Sam. Well done. Thanks to all those in New York and Boston who have quickly bought tickets. And Seattle and San Jose in September are each a little over 50% sold as well. So if you want tickets to any of those shows, you can head over to SamHarris.org also, we're about to announce Chicago, so that's coming this week. In order to get. Yeah, it should be fun. In order to get a access to the pre sale, you must be a paid subscriber to the podcast, and then there'll be a general on sale shortly thereafter. Anyway, all this info can be found on the website. And if you're on the mailing list, be on the lookout for something coming very soon. Sam, are there any quick thoughts on these shows you can share with us? Something the audience should just that I'm.

[Sam Harris]

Looking forward to them. I'm going to write a talk. So the first hour will not be extemporaneous. I mean, maybe I'll say something. There'll be some marginalia as I work from what I've prepared. But no, I'm actually going into this wanting to put my thoughts in order, and I love the excuse to be able to do that. So it feels almost like I have to write a short book between now and then. But I will do that and I will come prepared to tell people what I'm thinking about.

[Unknown Co-host]

That'll be fun. And then the second half, we'll do an episode of More from Sam. This kind of vibe where we can incorporate some of the current events.

[Sam Harris]

I mean, I think what I want to do is I want to field the questions in advance that we know are most pressing, especially things that I have said or failed to say that the audience finds most galling. So I just. We'll get the hardest questions and one, I'll probably anticipate some of those in my talk, but we'll store them up for each event and deal with them in the second hour or two.

[Unknown Co-host]

Well, we'll do that. That's what we do for every episode here, so that shouldn't be too hard. All right, so there's no shortage of things to cover on this episode. So let's get into it. I want to start with the political violence that took place this past weekend in Minneapolis where a state representative and her husband were murdered in their home and a state senator and his wife were shot multiple times at their house and have thankfully survived. You got Trump, Josh Shapiro, two employees at the Israeli embassy, and you could throw in the United Healthcare CEO as well. What's going on with the explosion of political violence and is this a new norm we should come to expect?

[Sam Harris]

Well, I mean, it's obviously awful. It's also mimetic. We know that people find this kind of the kind of notoriety that shooters get somewhat contagious. Right. So we've had episodes like this before in our past. I mean, not for a very long time, but Obviously the late 60s was a time where we were sort of in freefall with respect to Assassinations. I mean, it's awful. I think the thing that is. I mean, the only governor we have on it, apart from catching people or providing great security so as to make it effectively impossible, is to shun any political rhetoric that directly inspires this kind of behavior. And unfortunately, both sides, not both sides equally, but both sides have at various points, tipped over into ways of speaking about their political opponents that have been totally irresponsible. And I would put Trump at the top of this list of people who has been.

[Unknown Co-host]

Who's got the timer? How long did it take to bring Trump up there?

[Sam Harris]

Well, I mean, it's just. Yeah, but it's just the fact that here's somebody who has normalized political violence in several respects. I mean, his response to January 6th was a great act of normalization. You have people who are literally stabbing cops in the face with flagpoles, and they've been exonerated as American heroes. Yeah. All of that is part of what has pushed us to this moment. I think so.

[Unknown Co-host]

Well, I mean, do you think we have to doge the way that we treat these people? Instead of letting them become celebrities so quickly, can't we just find these people that commit these heinous acts and disappear them very quickly?

[Sam Harris]

We try to do that sometimes better than others, but we did that effectively with. At least to my eye, we did that with the shooter who tried to kill Trump, as evidenced by the fact that I can't even remember his name.

[Unknown Co-host]

Yeah, well, I think he was just killed right there on the spot. I think that's what happened.

[Sam Harris]

Yeah, but we haven't talked about him. He's not a martyr to any cause. In fact, I don't happen to know much about what his cause was, how much was mental illness, and how much was an actual ideological motivation. We've been better in recent years about doing that, whether it's political violence or just violence. I mean, the Vegas shooter who still killed more people than any shooter in American history, again, I've forgotten his name. I once knew it, but that was memory holes within, like, 72 hours of the occurrence. So I think we're getting better at it. But the way we are talking about our politics, I think, is just. It's not reminiscent of any recent period in American history. I mean, we just. We're so uncivil. I mean, this is of a piece with a US Senator being wrestled to the ground and handcuffed at a press conference for Christy Noem. Right. And the fact that his Republican colleagues in the Senate didn't immediately or Congress didn't immediately condemn that. In fact, some of them lined up on the other side and castigated him for some impropriety that they thought warranted his manhandling there. The thing that we're not recognizing is that civility is. Is the last stop before violence. Right. I mean, the civility is not just a nice to have, it's really a must have when you're talking about discussing politically polarizing issues.

[Unknown Co-host]

Yeah. Well, I want to get to Alex Padilla and a little bit of that later, because I do think what he did perhaps had some impact on changing the course of events there. It seems that that's been walked back, but we'll get back to that in a bit. Or the ice rates have been walked back because of the idea that apparently it's impacting the farming industry and the hotel industries, the hospitality industry.

[Sam Harris]

Yeah. I wonder what those phone calls were like.

[Unknown Co-host]

Well, no shit. I mean, what a dummy. Like, how obvious was that for him to say?

[Sam Harris]

Yeah, but also, how dysfunctional is it that really what accomplished this change in policy, undoubtedly were a bunch of rich friends of the president calling and saying, listen, you're fucking up my hotel business.

[Unknown Co-host]

This has nothing to do with the humanity of it.

[Sam Harris]

Yeah. It's nothing to do with wisdom or pragmatism or ethics or anything. It's just pure patronage. I mean, this is what is turning us into a banana republic. What Trump has done is he's put himself at the bottleneck of everything, and he's using both domestic and foreign policy to dole out favors to friends and punish enemies. I mean, the thing that is so despicable about the Republicans now is that no one objects to this. That's what was amazing to see in the falling out with Elon. You have all these people who, many of whom are welcoming Elon back into the fold, I mean, just desperate to patch up this marriage, and yet they're not acknowledging how corrosive it is to have a president who immediately goes to. If Elon supports any Democrats, there'll be extraordinary consequences. Right. He's threatening him with what, a judicial investigation or a loss of contracts? He's using the levers of government power to say that his former friend shouldn't fund political opposition in this country. And everyone on the Republican side accepts that as somehow normal. This is authoritarian is the generic term for it. This is not remotely normal in American politics.

[Unknown Co-host]

No, no, no. Well, you talked about, while we're talking about Musk in your recent substack piece, you torched him and this is something you and I were talking about earlier, that Musk has admitted that he went overboard with something that resembled, I guess, an apology on Twitter. But what he's saying here really matters. I mean, we shouldn't be quick to forget what he's basically saying. He's saying that he's either someone who has no morals, who just was happy to work with Trump, who was a. A rapist, your child rapist, and he was just fine because, well, he had shared interests, or he completely made up an insane lie about his friend, you know, someone who he loved as much as any man could love another. So either way, and the reason why I think it matters is because according to your latest podcast, I think. Was it Daniel or I forget his last name, you just spoke to about AI One of these guys could very soon become the leader of the most powerful AI army in the world. And we should care about the character of these individuals.

[Sam Harris]

Yeah, I don't know how we got here, but we seem to have. At least half of our society seems to think that the personal integrity of the most powerful people in our society doesn't matter. It's just like it doesn't make. You can have the most self interested, unethical people you can find, give them basically all the power human beings can have, and you could just expect everything to work fine. Now, it would be great to have systems to have laws and institutions that were totally impervious to bad actors. I mean, that would be the dream. It's an unrealistic one. Clearly we don't have anything like that currently in the US government. So it matters whether psychologically normal. At a minimum, psychologically normal people are in charge. Right. And we just don't have that. We have narcissists and liars and confabulators and in certain cases, I think, mentally unstable people.

[Unknown Co-host]

But I think a lot of times when you talk like that, people think you exaggerate. But right here, right here, we saw Elon Musk and we know.

[Sam Harris]

Well, even on the President's account, he went crazy. Right? So he's unstable. I mean, I think most people will admit that at a minimum, he's unstable.

[Unknown Co-host]

But these are the two worst options.

[Sam Harris]

But yes, those two interpretations of Elon's character, one, he was happy to collaborate with a person he knew to be a child rapist or an enabler of child rape. Or two, he was willing to claim that if a person who is his favorite person on Earth 10 minutes ago was a child rapist, the moment their interests were no longer aligned you pick your favorite interpretation of his character there because that exhausts the possibilities.

[Unknown Co-host]

But why isn't that being talked about more?

[Sam Harris]

Because, again, right of center, nobody cares about a person's character. They care about Hunter Biden's character, apparently. Right? They care about whether Joe Biden's inner circle knew that he wasn't Campos Mentis and were letting. Letting the country have a somewhat vacant presidency or presidency by committee that strikes them as just adjacent to evil. But nothing on their own side matters, including, I mean, they were completely unfazed. The people who thought Elon was this absolutely impeccable omnibus genius when he alleged that, mark my words, Trump is a child rapist, in so many words, he alleged that, he doubled down on that tweet, said, just flag this tweet, flag this post, come back to this post, mark this post. However he put it, the truth will come out. Right? He's claiming to have certain knowledge of Trump's criminal culpability. Right? All these people who were up to that moment thought Elon could do no wrong. What did they think? Did any of them care? And these are also people. The irony is that these are also people who are disproportionately fixated on the problem of pedophilia. Half of them think there's a pedophile cult running the world. They certainly don't think Epstein killed himself. They think lots of powerful people are culpable for an immense cover up there. And to hear that Elon knows and promises you that you will know soon. If you just watch this space, you soon will know that Trump is one of these sinister rapists or enablers of rapists. How many of them cared? Where were the Jack Posobiecs and the Charlie Kirks and the other grifters and confabulists, the Pizzagate dummies, the Mike Snervovichs? Where were they? How did they not jump into that space one way or the other? Either Elon is lying and he's pure evil. He's smearing the President with the worst aspersion that can be summoned to a human mind. Or you trust Elon because, God damn, he knows everything and he's been on the inside and he has all the data. And you sort of know anyway that Trump is like this. You know, he was friends with Epstein for many, many years. You know, he celebrated Epstein's sexual conquests and even named the fact that he likes his ladies young. He said that some people say that he likes beautiful women even more than I do, and he sure likes them. Young, Right. That's practically verbatim. You know that in his 60s, probably he was storming the dressing rooms of teenage girls at the Miss America pageant. You know that he's just right on the edge of doing this anyway all by himself. Right. And yet who cared? Right? It's not even hypocrisy. It's just a complete vacancy of moral sensibility right of center now.

[Unknown Co-host]

Well, and they rightly care about lawlessness too.

[Sam Harris]

Only on one side. Yeah, yeah, right. But that, I don't know. I mean, one can imagine it's going to normalize at some point. I think part of it is the characters we have in play. I don't know that you can get a delusional cult under somebody like J.D. vance, but I'm sure the Republicans will give it a good hard try.

[Unknown Co-host]

All right, switching gears, let's talk about Israel and Iran. Any early thoughts on that?

[Sam Harris]

Well, it's not going to surprise you that I think that they are fighting our war in some respect. I mean, they're fighting their own war too, because a nuclear armed Iran is definitely an existential concern for them. And if you doubt that, you just haven't been paying attention to what Iran has said for the last 20 plus years. I mean, the Iranian regime is explicitly a, a theocratic death cult. I mean, this is a jihadist regime of the Shiite variety that has had as its special focus for years and years the eradication of Israel. This is not a metaphor for anything. This is, once we get a bomb, we're going to turn Israel into glass. Right. And I think the Israelis have to take that threat at face value. I think the lesson that the world should learn is that if you are going to be explicit in your genocidal aspirations, your neighbors, whoever you're targeting with these malicious hopes, your neighbors are justified in coming across your border and killing the principal bad actors. Words matter. Right. And so if you're bluffing, you know it's on you to not do that again. Right. It's just so. I think it's completely warranted. I think this is a commercial for what we should have done years ago, we being the United States.

[Unknown Co-host]

And you think the Iranians would use a nuke? No doubt about it. If they got it, yeah.

[Sam Harris]

I mean, one, if they didn't use a nuke, if they just had them, I think they would do all the awful things they've been doing anyway. I mean, what's amazing is how deterred we the Americans. If you'd like to continue listening to this conversation, you'll need to [e-mail] Once you do, you'll get access to all full length episodes of the Making Sense Podcast. The Making Sense Podcast is ad free and relies entirely on listener support, and you can subscribe [e-mail].