Podcast Summary: Making Sense with Sam Harris
Episode: #429 — The New World Order
Release Date: August 11, 2025
Guests: Anne Applebaum
Duration: Approx. 26 minutes
Introduction
In episode #429 of Making Sense with Sam Harris, titled "The New World Order," neuroscientist and author Sam Harris engages in a profound discussion with historian and journalist Anne Applebaum. The conversation delves into the complexities of Sudan's ongoing civil war, the deterioration of the liberal international order, and the ramifications of the United States' retreat from global leadership.
Sudan's Civil War: A Complex Conflict
[01:31] Anne Applebaum
Anne Applebaum provides a comprehensive overview of the current civil war in Sudan. She explains that the conflict primarily involves two main factions:
- Sudanese Armed Forces: The traditional military component seeking control over territory and resources.
- Rapid Support Forces (RSF): Formerly known as the Janjaweed, this group has its roots in ethnic conflicts between Arab-speaking nomads and non-Arabic farmers in western Sudan.
Applebaum emphasizes that the war is not driven by ideology or clear ethnic divisions but by the factions' desire for power, control of lucrative gold mines, and other resources. This ruthless pursuit has led to severe consequences for Sudanese civilians, who are the primary victims of ethnic cleansing, revenge attacks, and rampant theft by mercenaries within the RSF.
Notable Quote:
"It's really a war between two groups who want power, who want money, who want control of territory, who want gold."
— Anne Applebaum [01:50]
International Involvement: An Unprecedented Array of Actors
[04:46] Sam Harris & Anne Applebaum
Harris and Applebaum discuss the surprising number of foreign powers currently involved in Sudan's conflict. The list includes:
- Middle Eastern Powers: Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, Qatar, Egypt, and Iran.
- Global Powers: Russia and China.
- Regional Actors: Ukraine, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Kenya, South Sudan, Chad, Libya, and the Central African Republic.
Applebaum highlights the novelty of such widespread international intervention, noting that these countries are more interested in exploiting Sudan's resources than in resolving the conflict. The proliferation of modern weaponry and drones has elevated the war's brutality to unprecedented levels.
Notable Quote:
"None of them right now have any particular interest in ending the war. Instead, they're all seeing what they can get out of it."
— Anne Applebaum [05:30]
The Decline of the Liberal International Order
[08:25] Anne Applebaum
The conversation shifts to the broader implications of the conflict, particularly the unraveling of the liberal world order. Applebaum reflects on Robert Kaplan's 1990s prediction of a "Coming Anarchy," noting that while the exact scenario didn't materialize, regions like Sudan, Libya, and Yemen exemplify areas where order has disintegrated.
Applebaum critiques the diminished role of the United States and international institutions like the UN in maintaining global stability. She argues that America's retreat has led to increased cynicism about its benevolence, replacing the longstanding image of American support with perceptions of transactional and self-interested behavior.
Notable Quote:
"There is a nostalgia for something that never was... it's becoming an idea that America is just another transactional country."
— Anne Applebaum [10:15]
Erosion of U.S. Soft Power and Humanitarian Aid
[12:31] Anne Applebaum
Applebaum delves into the specific consequences of the U.S. administration's policies on humanitarian efforts. She discusses the dismantling of agencies like USAID, which once accounted for 40% of international humanitarian aid, including food and medicine distribution. The abrupt termination of such programs has led to chaos on the ground, with vital resources like nutritional supplements going unused or being destroyed.
She recounts poignant stories of aid workers left stranded without access to funds or means to deliver essential supplies, resulting in preventable suffering and loss of life. Additionally, the reduction of U.S.-funded broadcasters has opened the door for state-controlled media from countries like China and Russia to dominate information channels, undermining the spread of democratic ideals and free speech globally.
Notable Quote:
"Cutting off USAID overnight was impossibly cruel and pointless."
— Anne Applebaum [19:55]
Consequences of Aid Cuts: Humanitarian and Information Crisis
[20:40] Sam Harris & Anne Applebaum
Harris expresses deep concern over the administration's handling of humanitarian aid, likening the actions to "psychopathic" destruction of American soft power. He highlights the inefficiency and brutality of ending aid programs without a transitional plan, leading to wasted resources and deprived lives.
Applebaum emphasizes that while some argue for reformed aid approaches, the sudden cessation of support is indefensible. She points to grassroots movements like the Emergency Response Rooms in Sudan as examples of effective local aid initiatives that could have been better supported instead of dismantling established aid structures.
Notable Quote:
"When you cut off aid abruptly, you're not just stopping support; you're actively harming those who depend on it."
— Anne Applebaum [21:20]
Broader Implications: The Future of Global Stability
[26:04] Sam Harris
Concluding the episode, Harris reflects on the precarious state of global democracy and the potential for further societal unraveling. He underscores the importance of maintaining international aid and diplomatic efforts to prevent regions from descending into chaos.
Applebaum reiterates the necessity of continued humanitarian support and the promotion of democratic ideals to counterbalance authoritarian influences. Both speakers agree that the erosion of these foundational supports poses a significant threat to global stability and the resurgence of conflicts like the one in Sudan.
Conclusion
Episode #429 of Making Sense with Sam Harris offers a compelling examination of Sudan's civil war as a microcosm of the declining liberal international order. Through Anne Applebaum's insightful analysis, listeners gain a deeper understanding of the intricate web of international interests fueling the conflict and the dire consequences of America's retreat from global leadership. The discussion serves as a poignant reminder of the critical role that humanitarian aid and soft power play in maintaining global stability and upholding democratic values.
Notable Resources Mentioned:
- Anne Applebaum's Article in The Atlantic: Titled "Online, the Most Nihilistic Conflict on Earth," detailing her observations from Sudan.
- USAID: United States Agency for International Development, formerly a cornerstone of American humanitarian efforts worldwide.
- Emergency Response Rooms: Sudanese mutual aid organizations highlighted as positive grassroots initiatives.
Further Engagement: To listen to the full episode and explore more in-depth discussions with Sam Harris, subscribe to the Making Sense podcast here.