#430 — “More From Sam”: Trump, Gavin Newsom, Class War, DOGE, & Rapid Fire Questions

Summary

Podcast Summary: Making Sense with Sam Harris

Episode #430 — “More From Sam”: Trump, Gavin Newsom, Class War, DOGE, & Rapid Fire Questions

Date: August 22, 2025 | Host: Sam Harris

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Overview

In this "More From Sam" episode, Sam Harris and his co-host respond to subscriber questions, delving into urgent topics at the heart of contemporary American political and social discourse. They touch on the legacy and threat of Donald Trump, prospects for Gavin Newsom in 2028, the fragility of democracy, the ultra-wealthy’s moral responsibilities, and the realities of government waste. Throughout, Sam’s trademark directness and clarity are on display, as he oscillates between analytical critique and piercing humor.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Lasting Damage of Trump to American Democracy

• Immediate vs. Future Concerns (01:41–04:02):

  • Sam Harris: He argues the main issue isn’t just what Trump might do in the future, but what’s already transpired:

    “I'm concerned about what's already happened. I think our democracy has eroded to an impressive degree that…few people right of center seem prepared to acknowledge.” (01:43)

  • He highlights a chilling shift: Congresspeople fearing for their or their families' lives, causing a breakdown in democratic functioning.

    “That's a very new spot on the map, and it's quite close to tyranny, frankly.” (01:57)

  • Sam underscores that his criticisms of Trump are grounded in observable facts, not hypotheticals.
  • On foreign affairs:

    “We're putting him [Trump] in a room with Putin…He literally spouts old Kremlin talking points…he pretends he's strong, but he's the most easily manipulated president we've ever had.” (02:38–03:31)

  • Quote of the segment:

    “[If] you could have some South Park episode that showed the condo deal he was really worried about invading his entire frontal cortex, that would explain it.” (03:15)

• Aftermath & Need for Reform (04:47–07:27):

  • Sam calls for structural changes to laws, citing how Trump’s norm-breaking exposed foundational weaknesses:

    “We have norms that are shoring up our democracy in places where we really should have laws.…Trump has broken all that invisible structure. So we need real structure.” (04:55)

  • He doubts these reforms will happen, pessimistically reflecting on the current state of political will.

• International Reputation (07:31–08:05):

  • Sam doubts America can easily regain global trust:

    “We have announced to the world that we potentially stand for nothing other than the whims of the next guy or gal we put in office.” (07:59)

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2. The 2028 Democratic Field: Gavin Newsom’s Candidacy

• On Newsom’s Electability (08:17–09:54):

  • Sam is skeptical of Newsom’s national appeal:

    “I just can't imagine that's a winning ticket. I'm not disputing the guy's talent…it's too much baggage to sell to 49 other states.” (08:29)

  • He points to the persistent negative PR California faces, despite its underlying strength:

    “People think California is virtually a failed state…But the other states think California sucks.” (09:07)

  • Wryly, Sam paints the challenge Newsom faces dealing with national stereotypes, referencing the media’s focus on California’s urban homelessness:

    “That's no match for the vox pop interview with the homeless addict in downtown LA…'Yeah, it's so great here. They gave me a lawn chair and all the fentanyl I can take.'” (09:36)

• On Newsom’s Communication Style (09:54–10:17):

  • The host acknowledges Newsom’s political skills—he’s “shameless,” “a great communicator,” and possessing a “Trump politics from the left” quality that could be potent in national elections.

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3. Wealth Inequality, Responsibility, and Social Cohesion

• Obligation of the Ultra-Wealthy (11:01–12:16):

  • Sam sharply critiques the apocalyptic fantasy of rich preppers:

    “It's just patently delusional…Your pilot…is not going to leave without his family…who's going to protect you from your bodyguards when your bodyguards understand that you really have no power…” (11:13)

  • He urges billionaires to realize their fates are tied to the stability of society:

    “You have as much a stake in civilization not failing as anyone else.” (12:06)

• Moral & Practical Stake in Common Good (12:16–13:00):

  • Sam considers it “crazy” and a “misappropriation of moral [and actual] capital” for the ultra-wealthy not to invest in strengthening civil society, rather than just themselves.
  • On philanthropic joy and the risk of insularity:

    “Do you want to be surrounded by desperate, angry, envious people, or…people who are basically happy and thriving? And the answer is so obvious…” (13:01)

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4. DOGE, Perceived Government Waste, and Reform

• DOGE Lessons and Misconceptions (13:01–14:47):
  • Tapping into the recent mania over government “waste,” Sam punctures the narrative:

    “…They [DOGE] went in there just guns blazing…they found like, $15 worth [of fraud]…and started cutting good projects to the bone and alienating every person who’s working for the government and many of whom are quite talented and could be working in the private sector…” (13:21)

  • He acknowledges that while government inefficiency is a problem, most citizens’ skepticism is overblown and often irrational.
  • The conversation wraps with Sam emphasizing the role of sane, nonpartisan oversight on public spending and the dangers of overzealous privatization:

    “What we need is a judicious and transparent and nonpartisan and sane look at all that. Not some dummy on ketamine with a chainsaw and bad sunglasses. You can’t privatize everything.” (14:18)

  • Final punchline—on the necessity of government for societal functions (war, pandemics, public health):

    “It’s the government that's going to fight our wars. It’s the government that’s going to tell us what the hell to do when the next pandemic happens. It’s the government that needs to make sure the food supply and the drug supply…” (14:38)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Trump & American Democracy:
  "We know having a greedy, incompetent, self dealing ignoramus in charge is not optimal. We're putting him in a room with Putin...he’s anchored to Putin’s view of the history of that war." (02:25–02:38, Sam Harris)
• On Wealth & Social Prepping:
  “It’s…delusional. Your pilot on your private plane is not going to leave without his family to go to New Zealand when the world ends…who's going to protect you from your bodyguards when...you really have no power...” (11:13–11:51, Sam Harris)
• On U.S. Reputation Post-Trump:
  “We have announced to the world that we potentially stand for nothing other than the whims of the next guy or gal we put in office.” (07:59, Sam Harris)
• On Government Reform:
  “You can’t privatize everything. It’s the government that’s going to fight our wars…when the next pandemic happens…” (14:38, Sam Harris)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Opening & Trump’s Threats to Democracy: 01:41–04:02
• Law, Norms, and Reform After Trump: 04:47–07:27
• U.S. Global Reputation Post-Trump: 07:31–08:05
• Gavin Newsom’s 2028 Prospects: 08:17–10:35
• Wealth Inequality & Social Obligations of the Rich: 11:01–13:00
• DOGE, Waste, & the Necessity of Government: 13:01–14:47

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Tone & Style

Sam’s signature blend of sharp critique, wit, and philosophical reflection runs throughout. He’s candid about existential risks to democracy, unsparing of both left and right, and persistent in probing the “why” behind the seemingly irrational. The tone is often sardonic, especially when skewering the illusions of the ultra-wealthy or political posturing on both sides.

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This episode is a must-listen for anyone seeking Sam Harris’s perspective on the deep fissures in American society and government, and the pressing need for civic and personal responsibility in the years ahead.

Transcript

[Sam Harris]

Welcome to the Making Sense Podcast. This is Sam Harris.

Just a note to say that if.

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[Podcast Host or Interviewer]

Welcome back to another episode of More from Sam. Hi, Sam, how are you?

[Sam Harris]

Good to see you. Here's me. More of me.

[Podcast Host or Interviewer]

Yeah, there's more. As a reminder, the goal of this series is to get more from Sam more often, and since we've been getting a lot more of you lately, Sam, we haven't had an episode for a while. Along with subscriber input, I may share my own positions, exaggerated versions of my positions, or play devil's advocate and jump between them seamlessly. And because I'm here in service of Sam, your ideas, I may also abandon any position I authentically hold if I think I can get more from you. Thank you again to all our subscribers for submitting your questions and comments. If you'd like to submit topics for a future episode, you'll need to become a subscriber, and you can do [e-mail] and one more announcement quickly. Sam currently has five shows on sale. Seattle, San Jose, New York, Boston, and Chicago. I think Boston is sold out. There might be a few remaining tickets in New York, and you can find all the details and ticket [e-mail] okay, onto our first topic. Is it fair to say that what concerns you most about Trump is what's yet to come? What happens to our country after Trump? What happens to our democracy going forward?

[Sam Harris]

No, no. I'm concerned about what's already happened. I think our democracy has eroded to an impressive degree that. That few people right of center seem prepared to acknowledge. I think when you have senators and congresspeople not voting their conscience in the aftermath of January 6th because they're afraid they might be killed or their families might be killed, something has gone wrong with our democracy. That's a very new spot on the map, and it's quite close to tyranny, frankly. And that's years ago, right? That's where we're coming from, there.

[Podcast Host or Interviewer]

I'm more wondering if you're concerned that it's gonna get worse from here, meaning what Trump is doing now and where we are now, are you not more concerned with what does the future look like?

[Sam Harris]

Well, yeah, if the future gets worse, that's obviously a bad thing, and I'm worried about that. But really, all of my criticism of Trump is based on what has already happened. None of it is hypothetical. I mean, yes, I have on the hypothetical side of the ledger, I have all these things I'm worried about. Right, because we don't know what challenges we're going to face as a society going forward. But we know having a greedy, incompetent, self dealing ignoramus in charge is not optimal. We're putting him in a room with Putin, right, to try to negotiate the end of a war in Europe. He's one of the last people I could think who's qualified to do that. I mean, first, he's showing every sign of being easily manipulated by Putin, and by default, he's anchored to Putin's view of the history of that war. He literally spouts old Kremlin talking points in how he describes the war in Ukraine. He sounds like a guy who's really thinking about what a great real estate deal he might do in Moscow when this whole thing is over, if that's what was the only thing going on in his brain. If you could have some south park episode that showed the condo deal, he was really worried about invading his entire frontal cortex, that would explain it. But he pretends he's strong, but he's the most easily manipulated president we've ever had. And again, he's anchored. His bias is on the side of, in this case, the dictator who launched a war of aggression into Europe.

[Podcast Host or Interviewer]

Well, speaking of that, Hillary Clinton said she'd nominate Trump for the Nobel Peace Prize if he helped broker an end of the war without capitulating to Putin. Would you?

[Sam Harris]

Well, that final phrase is crucial.

[Guest or Co-host]

Right.

[Sam Harris]

Without capitulating to Putin, of course. Let's see how that goes.

[Podcast Host or Interviewer]

Right, but if he did, would you support nominating him for Nobel Peace Prize?

[Sam Harris]

I mean, yeah, but who cares? I mean, the Nobel Peace Prize has been so devalued. I mean, Obama got it before he did anything.

[Guest or Co-host]

Right.

[Sam Harris]

It's a farce. Arafat got it.

[Guest or Co-host]

Right.

[Sam Harris]

Well, what we know about Arafat's contributions to peace in the Middle East, I mean, nobody should care about the Nobel Peace Prize.

[Podcast Host or Interviewer]

He gets a Peace Prize for refraining from killing anyone. Yeah, that was the bar there. You've often mentioned that when Trump is out, we're going to need to rewrite the laws and change everything in order to keep this from happening again.

[Guest or Co-host]

Right.

[Podcast Host or Interviewer]

You know what I'm talking about where you'll say, like on a go forward basis, let's, let's shore up the norms and make rules that avoid the loopholes from being exploited.

[Sam Harris]

Yeah, I have no hope we're going to actually do that. But yes, I think we, one of the things we realize is that we have norms that are shoring up our democracy in places where we really should have laws, because we have. The fact that we don't have laws and we only have norms testifies to the assumption that people aren't going to traduce those norms for corrupt or otherwise self serving reasons. But Trump has broken all that, all that kind of invisible structure. So we need real structure that makes it illegal to do certain things. You shouldn't be able to launch a cryptocurrency that is just a mechanism by which you can take bribes from the entire world and enrich yourself to the tune of billions of dollars and use U.S. foreign policy and tariff policy so as to do that better.

[Guest or Co-host]

Right.

[Sam Harris]

Apparently it remains to be seen. I guess maybe one of these court cases is explicitly on that point, but it remains to be seen whether any of that stuff is illegal.

[Podcast Host or Interviewer]

Right. The problem I see with having to rewrite the laws is that anytime you enter into any sort of agreement with somebody, a contract is only as good as the people that are involved. There's a lot of good faith that's required.

[Sam Harris]

Well, no, that's not true. A real contract that's enforceable by law has, at the end of it, when you don't live up to your end of it, people with guns showing up at your house and sticking those guns in your face.

[Podcast Host or Interviewer]

Of course, I understand that. I'm saying that generally speaking, when you enter into agreement with somebody, if you're going to make a deal with somebody, there's a spirit that you're trying to pay attention to. And the idea, what I'm getting at is that the history of the success of our country has come from the respect, the relationship between the founding documents and its executors. And now we're being forced to rewrite everything to protect sort of ourselves against the enemy within. And that's sort of not really the point. The point is if you have to enter an agreement with somebody and you have to.

[Sam Harris]

No, it's become the point. No. And this was something that the founding fathers, I think it was, I think it's Madison somewhere anticipated this explicitly, like, well, you can't have an evil person in the role of the chief executive and expect this system to work.

[Guest or Co-host]

Right.

[Sam Harris]

I mean, I forget how it was put, but there's some lines to that effect. It should be foreseeable. I mean, we're capable of being so confused and so at odds with one another that the creative and not boring demagogue can win 51% of the vote. Okay, so now we know that about ourselves, and the rest of the world knows it, too.

[Podcast Host or Interviewer]

All right, I'm going to change topics on you unless you have anything else to add there about Trump.

[Sam Harris]

Well, this is just you now need to price in all of the damage that has been done to our reputation. I mean, even if we get rid of Trump and we don't elect the opportunist Trump, J.D. vance, in 2028, and we get some sane and ethical president, Republican or Democrat, and we try to reset the world's expectations, it's very hard to see how we do that. We have announced to the world that we potentially stand for nothing other than the whims of the next guy or gal we put in office.

[Guest or Co-host]

Right.

[Podcast Host or Interviewer]

Well, I did like the take that you and Anne Applebaum discussed with J.D. vance. The idea that he's sort of like tofu or he sort of takes on the flavor of whatever room he's in.

[Sam Harris]

At any given time.

[Podcast Host or Interviewer]

That was interesting. All right, let's move to Newsom. I know we debated this a few months ago, but I'm going to say it again. Gavin Newsom is going to be the Democratic candidate for 2028. Any updated thoughts there?

[Sam Harris]

No, I'm just. I will wait and see. I mean, I. I just can't imagine that's a winning ticket. I'm not disputing the guy's talent and charisma in certain contexts, but I just think it's too much baggage to sell to 49 other states.

[Podcast Host or Interviewer]

Yeah. I mean, but what else, what worse could we hear about Newsom at this point?

[Sam Harris]

Well, we can't. But we know that 49 other states and their inhabitants more or less despise him.

[Guest or Co-host]

Right.

[Sam Harris]

I mean, I haven't seen national polling, but I'd be willing to bet that forget about him as a person and his Clintonian indiscretions. It's just the bad PR baggage that California as a state has for the rest of the country. I mean, I think a lot of that PR is misinformation at this point, but it's fairly indelible. People think California is virtually a failed state. It's like the number four economy on earth at this point. And it Subsidizes all the dysfunction of 49 other states. But the other states think California sucks.

[Podcast Host or Interviewer]

Yeah, I think Gavin makes that case really well and I think he'll have to stand behind some of it.

[Sam Harris]

That's no match for the vox pop interview with the homeless addict in downtown LA or downtown San Francisco who says, yeah, it's so great here. They gave me a lawn chair and all the fentanyl I can take and it's awesome, right? California. Go California.

[Podcast Host or Interviewer]

Yeah. Again, I think we need, we're going to need somebody who is as shameless as he is and he's really a great communicator. He's got a lot of talents. Again, I'm not a fan of his, but I can just see what he's doing and whoever's working with him behind the scenes and advising him or if it's him, I just don't see that anyone else is playing that level of Trump politics from the left, you know, that style.

[Sam Harris]

But again, who is he going to convince, right? I mean, it's just you have to picture people who voted for Trump now voting for Newsom.

[Podcast Host or Interviewer]

Only 1 or 2%. Yeah, but I think he's handsome enough and communicates well and he'll be able to put out enough good content that he persuades him. Anyway, we don't have to get stuck on this.

[Sam Harris]

I'm just, I'm planning more me in a year. About that, I may have another thought.

[Podcast Host or Interviewer]

I want to come back to your hobby horse for a second and discuss wealth inequality and make two entry points for you. As Scott Galloway has publicly stated a number of times, and I know you share this belief, if you hit your number 50 million, 100 million, 250, whatever it is, and then you don't start enjoying it by spending it on friends and family and being charitable and helping others, then you're really missing out on the greatest joy of having wealth.

[Guest or Co-host]

Right.

[Podcast Host or Interviewer]

And the second part is, rich people should be most invested in keeping the pitchforks from the gates. They have won the lottery, so maybe stop building compounds and invest in communities. Thoughts?

[Sam Harris]

Yeah. Well, to take it from the top down, I mean, the ultra rich people who don't think they have a stake in the common good and who think they can just jet off to New Zealand if things ever get really tough here, I mean, that's one. It's just patently delusional. If you're gaming out those end of the world scenarios, you have to think of who's going to protect you and who you're going to Your pilot on your private plane is not going to leave without his family to go to New Zealand when the world ends, right? So you need to take the pilot's family. And what about your bodyguard's family? And who's going to protect you from your bodyguards when your bodyguards understand that you really have no power now you're just a guy who bought this compound in New Zealand. It's a ridiculous end game to think that you can privately ensure your survival when the shit really hits the fan. So you have as much a stake in civilization not failing as anyone else. As anyone who doesn't have nearly the resources you have.

[Podcast Host or Interviewer]

You should have more of a stake.

[Sam Harris]

We have more of a stake. Yeah, because life is or should be so good. You won the game. You should. Should be nothing but dessert at this point. So the fact that they don't see that and they're wasting any time, rather than shoring up civil society and improving the government in all kinds of ways that we should improve it, they're engaged in this private effort, like this concierge prepping for the apocalypse, that just seems crazy and just a frank misappropriation of their moral capital and to say nothing of their actual capital. But, yeah, in addition to that, they should be much more generous in trying to build a functional society wherein other people are happy and secure.

[Guest or Co-host]

Right?

[Sam Harris]

I mean, they have a stake in other people seeing their dreams realized. Do you want to be surrounded by desperate, angry, envious people, or do you want to be surrounded by people who are basically happy and thriving? And the answer is so obvious at any level of wealth. It's so obvious. Now, what's really corrupt here is that we all have a sense, an understandable sense, that our tax dollars are often wasted. They're spent on things that we wouldn't approve of if we could kind of line item veto some of these expenditures. We all have some version of a Doge idiot in our head. Now. Some of that is probably totally unrealistic and irrational, right? I mean, one of the lessons of DOGE is that there's far less fraud and waste in government than anyone suspected, right? I mean, they went in there just guns blazing, looking for fraud, and they found like, $15 worth. And then they just started cutting good projects to the bone and alienating every person who's working for the government and many of whom are quite talented and could be working in the private sector and are taking a significant pay cut to serve the country. I'm not saying I don't think there's waste in government and I'm not saying that I don't think we could spend our tax dollars more wisely. But what we need is a judicious and transparent and nonpartisan and sane. Look at all that. Not some dummy on ketamine with a chainsaw and bad sunglasses. You can't privatize everything. It's the government that's going to fight our wars. It's the government that's going to tell us what the hell to do when the next pandemic happens. It's the government that needs to make sure the food supply and the drug supply.

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