Making Sense with Sam Harris – Episode #431

What Is Happening on College Campuses?

Host: Sam Harris
Guest: Michael Roth, President of Wesleyan University
Date: August 25, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode features a thoughtful conversation between Sam Harris and Michael Roth on the state of American higher education—focusing on the perceived crises of free speech, ideological capture, campus protests, and how schools like Wesleyan are handling these issues post-October 7th. They also discuss the reality versus perception of left-wing dominance, the responsibilities of faculty and administration, and the delicate lines around ideological diversity in universities.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Current State of University Campuses

• Roth describes the situation as dire:

  • “I don't remember a time of such trepidation, of really angst about government intervention…” (03:25)
  • Multiple stressors: fear of governmental overreach and reluctance among students/faculty/administrators to defend institutional values.

• Shift in threats:

  • While illiberalism from the left once seemed the primary concern, Roth now sees authoritarian pressure from the federal government as most dangerous.

2. Concerns About Ideological Capture and ‘Wokeness’

• Sam frames the standard critique:

  • There is a widespread narrative that elite campuses have surrendered to leftist ideology and social justice, stifling dissent and rigorous thought. (04:44)

• Roth’s response—major overrated threat:

  • Compares fears of ideological capture to Russian justifications for aggression:
    “To me, that's akin to saying that Putin has legitimate concerns about the Ukrainian threat...” (06:01)
  • Notes that at most universities, students are far more interested in economics, psychology, or going into finance than fomenting revolution.
  • “The danger in higher education is more vocationalism.” (06:41)

3. Infamous Campus Incidents—Yale & Beyond

• Sam references the Christakis/Yale quad incident:

  • “I saw Nicholas Christakis in the quad at Yale being hounded by a group of students who... were violating every norm of basic sanity...” (07:43)

• Roth contextualizes:

  • Acknowledges the behavior was awful, but cautions that these become propaganda due to selective video and media coverage.
  • “It would be like saying... go to a fraternity party and see people vomiting and saying, oh, American universities have been... captured by the alcohol industry.” (08:14)
  • The actual existential threat, says Roth, is not radical students but a lack of ideological diversity among faculty.

4. The Real Problem: Faculty Ideological Homogeneity

• Persistent Issue:

  • Roth admits fields like humanities and interpretive social sciences are increasingly inhospitable to moderates or conservatives.
  • “It's getting worse in many respects, because folks aren't even going to graduate school if they're moderates or conservatives...” (09:40)
  • Lack of diversity “narrows education and the kind of questions asked.” (10:15)

• Attempts at Correction:

  • Wesleyan has experimented (with limited success) to intentionally recruit ideological diversity, even suggesting “affirmative action for conservatives.” (12:26)
  • Roth: “I've hired people from the military. I've hired people with different points of view than the standard graduate from an Ivy League humanities department.” (13:20)

5. Diversity Statements and DEI Pledges

• Concerns about DEI requirements:

  • Sam: New hires in some disciplines required to sign DEI commitments—potential filter against desired ideological diversity. (14:41)

• Roth’s take:

  • Justified only insofar as it ensures a candidate can engage diverse classrooms.
    • “We want to have professors... able to teach a classroom with people who have different lived experiences...” (15:26)
  • Requiring ideological alignment is “reprehensible.” (16:03)

6. Where’s the Line? Academic Freedom vs. Extremism

• Setting boundaries:
  • No formulaic answer—some part of the spectrum is obviously disqualifying (e.g., neo-Nazi views, terrorist supporters). (16:33)
  • Roth: “A university shouldn't hire someone who is an active supporter of a terrorist organization. So I think that's... pretty clear.” (17:18)
  • Emphasizes classroom behavior over private beliefs—ideological proselytizing or discrimination is a firing offense.

7. Guest Speakers, Controversy, and Campus Culture

• Broader Overton window for guest speakers:

  • Roth recounts hosting Justice Antonin Scalia—an ideological adversary—at Wesleyan.
    • “He gave a good talk. He spent the whole day on campus... There were protests here and there, not to keep him from speaking...” (19:31)
  • Demonstrates commitment to free discourse as long as it does not disrupt events.

• Expectations for Students:

  • “It's very clear to them that... you keep someone from being heard, you're really undermining the whole educational project.” (21:37)
  • Disruptive students are disciplined at Wesleyan.

8. Why Do Other Colleges Fail?

• Sam’s question left unanswered (Timestamp 22:44):
  • Roth was about to respond to why other institutions “get this wrong.”
  • Conversation cuts off as the free subscriber portion ends.

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• Roth on feared ideological capture:
  • “To me, that's akin to saying that Putin has legitimate concerns about the Ukrainian threat against Moscow...” (06:01)
• On student activism:
  • “That behavior was awful, but it would be like saying... the alcohol industry has captured American universities.” (08:14)
• On diversity among faculty:
  • “I've hired people from the military. I've hired people with different points of view than the standard graduate from an Ivy League humanities department.” (13:20)
• On DEI pledges:
  • “Wanting someone who can teach diverse classrooms is reasonable. Requiring an ideological commitment to a diversity program just to teach math or history... that seems to me reprehensible.” (16:03)
• On hiring limits:
  • “I don't want a Nazi on my campus... I do have limits, and those limits are defined really sociologically or historically. There's not a formula for it.” (17:18)
• On campus protest guidelines:
  • “If you keep someone from being heard, you're really undermining the whole educational project.” (21:37)
• On Scalia’s visit to Wesleyan:
  • “He gave his talk. At some point... a young student, she jumped up and said, why don’t you call on a woman?... people expressed themselves in a way that was honest, but that allowed for the conversation or debate to continue. I think that's, to me, a great model.” (20:11)

Important Timestamps

• 03:25 – Roth on campus climate and new threats to academia
• 06:01 – Roth critiques “ideological capture” claims
• 07:43 – Sam details Christakis/Yale incident
• 09:40 – Roth on faculty ideological diversity issues
• 12:26 – Discussion of affirmative action for conservative hires
• 14:41 – DEI pledge controversy
• 16:33 – Setting boundaries on classroom ideology
• 19:31 – Guest speaker policy and the Scalia visit
• 21:37 – Roth’s principles on campus discourse and discipline

Tone:
Both Harris and Roth speak thoughtfully, with Roth emphasizing nuance and resisting formulaic answers, often referencing pragmatism and the real-world complexity of maintaining both free inquiry and community standards.

Summary Usefulness:
This summary provides a nuanced and detailed overview of the episode for those who haven't listened, highlighting both the philosophical underpinnings and the practical realities of free speech and ideological diversity on today’s college campuses.